(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B4mLAq-CEAE2csA.jpg:large)
What things didn't go well for him, I thought he was criminally under used.
I thought that he had tremendous talent. Letting him and Kasami go was poor management
I sort of agree about being under used, but if memory serves me, he had stated that he wanted to go and play in Turkey.
I'd love to know what those steps are. I'd take the other view that in this country we don't give kids a chance early enough. Yes they need to be managed properly to avoid burnout or success going to their head but how much do you actually learn in the reserves/u21?
If they are good enough they are old enough
I REMEMBER THE GAME AGAINST CHELSEA AND HE TERRORISED THERE LEFT BACK WHO IF I REMEMBER RIGHT WAS COLE THAT NIGHT.
He missed out on how to play the game in different circumstances and against different players in different situations. Roberts should take the warning. If you a good then you will have a great career. Having fans in the stand say your good doesn't count for much because they will turn on you in an instance. Trust in the people who are supposed to be there to help.
Quote from: Lighthouse on June 14, 2015, 03:49:51 PM
He missed out on how to play the game in different circumstances and against different players in different situations. Roberts should take the warning. If you a good then you will have a great career. Having fans in the stand say your good doesn't count for much because they will turn on you in an instance. Trust in the people who are supposed to be there to help.
how do you learn to play against different players, in different situations if you never get to play though. And I should imagine his trust in kit is at an all time low
A player who many fans had decided that at 19 and 26 games behind him was a one trick pony and not good enough.
The route Jennings wants is a year at the club and then 18/19 out on loan, back for some time, another loan and then back to break into the team.
Quote from: MJG on June 14, 2015, 04:05:47 PM
A player who many fans had decided that at 19 and 26 games behind him was a one trick pony and not good enough.
The route Jennings wants is a year at the club and then 18/19 out on loan, back for some time, another loan and then back to break into the team.
might have worked when in prem, but fighting relegation in the championship doesn't allow you that option. Pat must have had the right hump watching defenders constantly getting picked in the middle over him when it clearly wasn't working. And if that's the way the club wanted to go then wtf was the fofana signing all about. We can't play our youngsters but we can someone else's 18 year old who had never played a single professional game. And under Jennings we would never of seen the likes of steed play for us
If you look at Burn that's the type of route they want players to take. There will always be exceptions but it's about giving them experience at lower levels and then coming back. Makes no difference now in championship, except we loan from above :-)
Quote from: MJG on June 14, 2015, 04:18:49 PM
If you look at Burn that's the type of route they want players to take. There will always be exceptions but it's about giving them experience at lower levels and then coming back. Makes no difference now in championship, except we loan from above :-)
there's a difference if you want good youngsters. And loaning untested players from above will hopefully be a thing of the past.
We had this argument at the time, I'll still stand by the view that Fofana brought something we didn't have into the squad, now loaning Richards and stopping Grimmer was more of a crime in my eyes.
Quote from: MJG on June 14, 2015, 04:25:21 PM
We had this argument at the time, I'll still stand by the view that Fofana brought something we didn't have into the squad, now loaning Richards and stopping Grimmer was more of a crime in my eyes.
[/quoteq. Fof brought nothing to the party. And I bet if Felix had signed him and not kit then he would of hardly played at all
Quote from: fulhamben on June 14, 2015, 03:54:38 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on June 14, 2015, 03:49:51 PM
He missed out on how to play the game in different circumstances and against different players in different situations. Roberts should take the warning. If you a good then you will have a great career. Having fans in the stand say your good doesn't count for much because they will turn on you in an instance. Trust in the people who are supposed to be there to help.
how do you learn to play against different players, in different situations if you never get to play though. And I should imagine his trust in kit is at an all time low
I just meant playing outside of the first team gives you the experience and room to fail and grow. In the first team, sure you can do that but a young player can destroyed if they are not really ready.
If they are good enough, they are old enough. There is too much fear of letting players play and learn the ropes imho.
Quote from: Lighthouse on June 14, 2015, 04:37:57 PM
Quote from: fulhamben on June 14, 2015, 03:54:38 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on June 14, 2015, 03:49:51 PM
He missed out on how to play the game in different circumstances and against different players in different situations. Roberts should take the warning. If you a good then you will have a great career. Having fans in the stand say your good doesn't count for much because they will turn on you in an instance. Trust in the people who are supposed to be there to help.
how do you learn to play against different players, in different situations if you never get to play though. And I should imagine his trust in kit is at an all time low
I just meant playing outside of the first team gives you the experience and room to fail and grow. In the first team, sure you can do that but a young player can destroyed if they are not really ready.
yes, but equally they can excell. lvc hyndman cauley betts, would all be better off for the game time time last season. think pat played more for england than he did us at any level last season. and i can understand it if we were a winning team which he didnt want to break up, but we were not.
Judging the time to play promising young players in the first team is crucial - because if they perform poorly it can ruin a player, and destroy his top flight career before it has even started.
Quote from: fulhamben on June 14, 2015, 04:12:39 PM
Quote from: MJG on June 14, 2015, 04:05:47 PM
A player who many fans had decided that at 19 and 26 games behind him was a one trick pony and not good enough.
The route Jennings wants is a year at the club and then 18/19 out on loan, back for some time, another loan and then back to break into the team.
might have worked when in prem, but fighting relegation in the championship doesn't allow you that option. Pat must have had the right hump watching defenders constantly getting picked in the middle over him when it clearly wasn't working. And if that's the way the club wanted to go then wtf was the fofana signing all about. We can't play our youngsters but we can someone else's 18 year old who had never played a single professional game. And under Jennings we would never of seen the likes of steed play for us
:plus one:
Quote from: MJG on June 14, 2015, 04:25:21 PM
We had this argument at the time, I'll still stand by the view that Fofana brought something we didn't have into the squad, now loaning Richards and stopping Grimmer was more of a crime in my eyes.
:plus one:
Quote from: blingo on June 14, 2015, 04:44:10 PM
If they are good enough, they are old enough. There is too much fear of letting players play and learn the ropes imho.
Not true at all. 16/17/18 shouldn't be playing as much first team football as possible. You can't overload them, physically they just aren't ready.
The problem is that they make it to the match-day squad and because they are not always going to start they end up bench warming
Better that they play for one of the junior teams or on loan if they are not going to start or make an appearance as a PLANNED substitution, which baring accidents would guarantee some playing time.
Quote from: Lighthouse on June 14, 2015, 03:49:51 PM
He missed out on how to play the game in different circumstances and against different players in different situations. Roberts should take the warning. If you a good then you will have a great career. Having fans in the stand say your good doesn't count for much because they will turn on you in an instance. Trust in the people who are supposed to be there to help.
Very Goodpoint, he became very predictable, would always cut inside and defenders very quickly learnt that, he needed to be able to adapt to each game/defence set up. Roberts should definitely take notice as well as look at the experience of Sinclair at City who was already a proven premier player. Having said that I'm not sure that the lack of game time for Roberts last season, spending a lot of time as a spectator on the bench, might have been better spent playing imore often for the U21's
It astounds me that people like to think they know better than hew Jennings, a man who has been there, seen it and got the t shirt when it comes to young players.
Young players get put in the match day squad sometimes for the experience of being in and around the first team squad on match days, it's all part of their development
Quote from: MJG on June 14, 2015, 04:25:21 PM
We had this argument at the time, I'll still stand by the view that Fofana brought something we didn't have into the squad, now loaning Richards and stopping Grimmer was more of a crime in my eyes.
Agree that Grimmer is as good/if not better than Richards (and certainly has greater potential) but I think Grimmer was sensibly used at the end of the season..he was picking up some muscle strains, so far better to give him some rest/ individual muscle strengthening regime. Suspect he will be a stronger player for that next season.
As for Richards...an average Championship player who can do a job on either flank..if we sign him for £500k, a reasonable squad addition.
Quote from: Fulhamerica23 on June 15, 2015, 04:04:45 AM
Quote from: blingo on June 14, 2015, 04:44:10 PM
If they are good enough, they are old enough. There is too much fear of letting players play and learn the ropes imho.
Not true at all. 16/17/18 shouldn't be playing as much first team football as possible. You can't overload them, physically they just aren't ready.
Read the post again......IF THEY ARE GOOD ENOUGH.
Quote from: blingo on June 15, 2015, 02:14:13 PM
Quote from: Fulhamerica23 on June 15, 2015, 04:04:45 AM
Quote from: blingo on June 14, 2015, 04:44:10 PM
If they are good enough, they are old enough. There is too much fear of letting players play and learn the ropes imho.
Not true at all. 16/17/18 shouldn't be playing as much first team football as possible. You can't overload them, physically they just aren't ready.
Read the post again......IF THEY ARE GOOD ENOUGH.
I think you're talking at cross purposes, yes itf they are good enough they can play. However too much senior football at a young age has shown to have detrimental effects physically. Youngsters also play through injury which can do them greater long term harm
Whilst the may have the skill and ability they may not have the physicality, hence they do need to be rotated in and out.
Ability, is one thing... in that being able to control a ball and run at pace with it are one thing.
talent is when you make the most of that ability... not is odd flashes but for a good percentage of the time.
Many players such as fof and frei have bags of ability but no real talent because they have no idea how to use their ability for the betterment of the team.... they play for themselves not the team. They have not understood they can't do it by themselves or that every situation does not require them to do some fancy dan step over or trick or that they have to go past somebody before releasing the ball
when I watch the truly top players... the messi, suarez and the like, most of their game is unselfish and one touch... fof and frei and their ilk do not understand that. And if I am being a trifle unkind to the two i mention it is because i look at them and think how much better they ought to be as team players.
I like the great individuals as much as anyone but running endlessly at defenders until you end up in blind alley makes you aaron lennon, with brilliant ability and pace but no end product.
You can coach so much into people but if they don't want to learn then that is a shame.
I hope this makes sense, if not it is because i have no talent at writing!
Seriously you are comparing two players under 20 with Messi and Suarez?
Messi was quite greedy when he was younger and playing for himself, this season at the age of 27 he has added even more to his game and become a real team player. It all comes with experience, no player is ready made at 18.
Remember Ronaldo at 18 - tricks all over the place with little end product. Now look at him, pretty much entirely end product.
Robben is a one trick pony. Run down the right, cut in on his left and hammer it. Doesn't stop him being a damn good and effective player.
Our own Les Barrett 90% of the time ran down the outside of the full back and crossed a fraction of a second before the ball crossed the line. Very predictable and fantastic to watch.
Quote from: God The Mechanic on June 15, 2015, 05:19:10 PM
Remember Ronaldo at 18 - tricks all over the place with little end product. Now look at him, pretty much entirely end product.
Robben is a one trick pony. Run down the right, cut in on his left and hammer it. Doesn't stop him being a damn good and effective player.
:plus one:
Rooney and Owen come to mind. Good enough at a young age and managed to develop too.
The problem with comparing a Kerim Frei at Fulham or a Patrick Roberts at Fulham and their treatment by the club with the players mentioned in the last few posts and their club situations is that all those mentioned played or play at clubs that NEVER have to consider promotion/relegation and are/were loaded with players who can pick up "the slack" while a young ambitious player makes his mistakes and learns or while a "one-trick pony" does his one trick. The situations are not equal.
And quite frankly, the players aren't, weren't, and won't be equal either most likely.
Quote from: ToodlesMcToot on June 15, 2015, 07:49:25 PM
The problem with comparing a Kerim Frei at Fulham or a Patrick Roberts at Fulham and their treatment by the club with the players mentioned in the last few posts and their club situations is that all those mentioned played or play at clubs that NEVER have to consider promotion/relegation and are/were loaded with players who can pick up "the slack" while a young ambitious player makes his mistakes and learns or while a "one-trick pony" does his one trick. The situations are not equal.
And quite frankly, the players aren't, weren't, and won't be equal either most likely.
everton have been in plenty of relegation scraps
Quote from: fulhamben on June 15, 2015, 08:09:39 PM
Quote from: ToodlesMcToot on June 15, 2015, 07:49:25 PM
The problem with comparing a Kerim Frei at Fulham or a Patrick Roberts at Fulham and their treatment by the club with the players mentioned in the last few posts and their club situations is that all those mentioned played or play at clubs that NEVER have to consider promotion/relegation and are/were loaded with players who can pick up "the slack" while a young ambitious player makes his mistakes and learns or while a "one-trick pony" does his one trick. The situations are not equal.
And quite frankly, the players aren't, weren't, and won't be equal either most likely.
everton have been in plenty of relegation scraps
True enough. I overlooked Wayne's Liverpudlian adventures.
People like Berahino at WBA and Delph at Leeds/Villa disproves that theory too. If they are good enough they are old enough, regardless of what team they are in.
Rooney was an exceptional player from a young age - with strength, as well as great skill and application, well beyond his years.
There are not many with as much natural ability, allied to the right mental attitude, as Rooney, but Roberts is definitely also a very gifted player, who will show his potential if not rushed when he isn't fully ready.
A transfer to a big club could possibly be bad for Pat and his career at this time, and staying at Fulham far better for him. But money talks of course - for Fulham and the player, who is obviously ambitious about his career.
