What is becoming more obvious is that Matt Smith & Alexander Kacaniklic are vital to Fulham achieving success on the pitch this season, going by the last three competitive matches. And they seem to compliment one another with very differing attributes.
Matt Smith, 26, not to be confused with his Doctor Who namesake, is one of the tallest outfield footballers in the Championship at a whopping 6 feet 5 inches! But unlike other stringbean centre-forwards like Peter Crouch and Connor Wickham, Smith is a substantial chap weighing around 200 pounds and built like a fortress. He must frighten the life out of most opposition defenders and I'd say he'd even give Tyson Fury a good fight!
With Kacaniklic playing, he offers Fulham fantastic pace as well as width, which is lacking when he is not in the line-up. Like Smith, Kaca can also score goals, as well as provide them, and in the last match he was further prepared to help out defending, twice making important tackles to break up the play. At 23, he is one of Fulham's best young talents and we must not allow him to be enticed away.
The two are not often played in the same team but when they do it gives our opponents plenty of problems to worry about. Kit Symons has yet to give Matt Smith a full 90 minutes: is he that unfit or is Symons trying to be smarter than he actually is?! In our game against Cardiff, the late removal of Smith probably cost us a win, as it relieved their defenses of our TERRIFYING forward and bringing on alternative striker in Dembele was not what one would call a 'tactical' substitution. Kit did this last season much to Sean Davis and "Gentleman" Jim's disbelief which cost us another game - we can only hope he learns from his errors soon.
One is aware of the critics of Smith on this forum, namely MJG who derided his passing ability before the start of the season, but it was Smith's knock-down which set up Kacaniklic's winner in our recent League Cup victory and his hold up play is invaluable.
I hope Kit Symons sees that these two playing in the same team, Power & Pace, is a good strategy and that pen-pushing, penny-pinching Scot Alistair Mackintosh does not undermine Fulham again by allowing either of these two assets to go somewhere on loan or even be sold, while they both approach their peaks in our colours!
Quote from: Nick Bateman on August 12, 2015, 04:16:48 PM
What is becoming more obvious is that Matt Smith & Alexander Kacaniklic are vital to Fulham achieving success on the pitch this season, going by the last three competitive matches. And they seem to complement one another with very differing attributes.
Matt Smith, 26, not to be confused with his Doctor Who namesake, is one of the tallest outfield footballers in the Championship at a whopping 6 feet 5 inches! But unlike other stringbean centre-forwards like Peter Crouch and Connor Wickham, Smith is a substantial chap weighing around 200 pounds and built like a fortress. He must frighten the life out of most opposition defenders and I'd say he'd even give Tyson Fury a good fight!
With Kacaniklic playing, he offers Fulham fantastic pace as well as width, which is lacking when he is not in the line-up. Like Smith, Kaca can also score goals, as well as provide them, and in the last match he was further prepared to help out defending, twice making important tackles to break up the play. At 23, he is one of Fulham's best young talents and we must not allow him to be enticed away.
The two are not often played in the same team but when they do it gives our opponents plenty of problems to worry about. Kit Symons has yet to give Matt Smith a full 90 minutes: is he that unfit or is Symons trying to be smarter than he actually is?! In our game against Cardiff, the late removal of Smith probably cost us a win, as it relieved their defenses of our TERRIFYING forward and bringing on alternative striker in Dembele was not what one would call a 'tactical' substitution. Kit did this last season much to Sean Davis and "Gentleman" Jim's disbelief which cost us another game - we can only hope he learns from his errors soon.
One is aware of the critics of Smith on this forum, namely MJG who, in his pontificating dogmatic style derided his passing ability before the start of the season, but it was Smith's headed knock-down which set up Kacaniklic's winner in in recent League Cup victory and his hold up play is invaluable.
I hope Kit Symons sees that these two playing in the same team, Power & Pace, is a good strategy and that pen-pushing, penny-pinching Scot Alistair Mackintosh does not undermine Fulham again by allowing either of these two assets to go somewhere on loan or even be sold, while they both approach their peaks in our colours!
hold up a minute. MJG backed up his assessment with stats. Which basically said he misses a lot of pases and shots. Which he does. And our playing style does go route one when he plays. Which if anyone can recall the second half of last season will know it didn't help us at all. Unless one win in thirteen is now acceptable. I think it's a crying shame that we have lost Mitro and Hugo and have ended up with Smith as a starter. This isn't Smith and McCormacks first tango,can anyone tell me if they have got a team into the top twelve once together
086.gif Don't bite! Never bite! You will be sucked in! 086.gif I was hoping this one would have 0 comments.
I for one actually look forward to these posts. Always entertaining.
As it happens I disagree with MJG over Smith, but for you of all people to accuse him of a "dogmatic pontificating style" is pot calling kettle black. BTW since you pride yourself on your erudition you should have placed a comma after dogmatic.
i think that there is a lot of validity in Nick's post
Smith has now scored in two of Fulham's last three games and set-up the goal in the one he didn't after coming off the bench. Thing is, MJG is quick to admonish anything he believes I have written is inaccurate so one felt moved to do likewise, and see how he likes it. Especially as he is so far WRONG in this case to single out Smith as if he is a 'problem' when he is in fact an important asset.
And stats will never show how many times a player holds the ball up, but compare Smith with (honest but headless) Cauley Woodrow and they are a world apart!
Quote from: Blanco on August 12, 2015, 04:30:00 PM
086.gif Don't bite! Never bite! You will be sucked in! 086.gif I was hoping this one would have 0 comments.
Blanco, allow adults to discuss football on a footballing forum in a mature fashion, particularly something relevent to recent events.
Matt Smith is Fulham's best player/greatest goal threat. Watch what he does if he gets a full season. He will outscore Ross and Prem teams will be looking at him next season. Mark my words.
Quote from: Blanco on August 12, 2015, 04:30:00 PM
086.gif Don't bite! Never bite! You will be sucked in! 086.gif I was hoping this one would have 0 comments.
and yet you made a comment, why did you not just ignore it?
I have said for a long time that Kaca is one of our biggest assets at the club... I was royally frustrated with his lack of minutes last year and dumbfounded when we loaned him to Copenhagen at the beginning of the year... I suspect that was Magath's moronic vision...
Kaca is a starter... Smith seems to be working well too... put him up top with Ross in a free roll underneath him..
Get EH some minutes too... these are guys we do not want to lose...
Quote from: Nick Bateman on August 12, 2015, 04:53:17 PM
Smith has now scored in two of Fulham's last three games and set-up the goal in the one he didn't after coming off the bench. Thing is, MJG is quick to admonish anything he believes I have written is inaccurate so one felt moved to do likewise, and see how he likes it. Especially as he is so far WRONG in this case, and it was a denigrating summary from his ivory-towered pulpit he often lectures.
And stats will never show how many times a player holds the ball up, but compare Smith with (honest but headless) Cauley Woodrow and they are a world apart!
Quote from: Blanco on August 12, 2015, 04:30:00 PM
086.gif Don't bite! Never bite! You will be sucked in! 086.gif I was hoping this one would have 0 comments.
Blanco, allow adults to discuss football on a footballing forum in a mature fashion, particularly something relevent to recent events.
Don't lecture me on being an adult. All you are is an attention seeker. The way you write and the way you put yourself across is purely to attract attention. I thought your post was ok until you slagged off MJG for no reason. We all have opinions and there is no need to bring someones past comments up when a player does something right. Like alfie says, in future posts of yours I won't comment.
My last word on this topic is well done Kit Symons for taking this fixture seriously, playing virtually his first team with backup (like Smith) on the bench. A win lifts everyone's morale and the team's spirits.
Smith, McCormack & Kacaniklic as a triumvirate works for me too!
Quote from: Blanco on August 12, 2015, 05:11:01 PM
Don't lecture me on being an adult. All you are is an attention seeker. The way you write and the way you put yourself across is purely to attract attention. I thought your post was ok until you slagged off MJG for no reason. We all have opinions and there is no need to bring someones past comments up when a player does something right. Like alfie says, in future posts of yours I won't comment.
Your suggestion to not reply to a fair topic (and not a
wind-up posting as you claim) was silly, and I was merely saying allow us to have an adult conversation about football - I have no idea of your age. I mentioned MJG because he has constantly chastised anything I have written for the last
6 months, and you feel it your task to pick me up for doing this ONCE??!!
Perhaps I should have left him out but I did remember him did singling out Matt Smith and no other player which was unfair, as though Smith is the root cause of Fulham's woes with his
alleged poor passing stat. I'm sure MJG means well for Fulham as do I, but on this issue he is wrong to make it sound as though Smith is such a bad player!
As for being just attention seeking allow me to explain this: I am seriously worried, frightened even, that
Ali Mack with loan out one or even BOTH of these players before the transfer window shuts. He has undermined Fulham at every opportunity. That's what compelled me to write!
Quote from: Nick Bateman on August 12, 2015, 05:22:30 PM
Quote from: Blanco on August 12, 2015, 05:11:01 PM
Don't lecture me on being an adult. All you are is an attention seeker. The way you write and the way you put yourself across is purely to attract attention. I thought your post was ok until you slagged off MJG for no reason. We all have opinions and there is no need to bring someones past comments up when a player does something right. Like alfie says, in future posts of yours I won't comment.
Good, stay off my posts if that's how you write. I mentioned MJG because he has constantly chastised anything I have written for the last 6 months, and you feel it your task to pick me up for doing this ONCE??!! And he did single out Matt Smith and no other player which was unfair, as though Smith is the root cause of Fulham's woes with his alleged poor passing stat.
The reason people and this time me have a go at you is because you are very annoying. I have criticized people before for slagging you off because a few of your posts are good. However 99% are just provoking. The way you underline and bold your words. How you repeat your opinions on Mackintosh again and again. How you write your posts as if you're a national paper with thousands of readers. I'm not sure if anyone has noticed that it's your posts that create the most arguements between users.
Is this really THE Nick Bateman from Big Brother?
Why try and incite an argument though Nick? The only thing you've succeeded in doing by calling out MJG, re: Smith, is to draw attention away from the validity of the remainder of your post - same with the dig at Alistair.
For once, I thought you'd constructed a fair and accurate opening post, and then you went and had a go at two people who have absolutely nothing to do with picking the team. It then slid from a possibly good and constructive thread back into more of your usual wind-up type postings.
Blanco, I apologise for my wording, I've changed it to clarify. No offense to you was intended. I'm sure MJG can (and will) defend himself. As for Ali Mack he may be doing his best for Fulham's books perhaps, but not in my opinion for Fulham's playing staff.
Quote from: ToodlesMcToot on August 12, 2015, 05:40:51 PM
Why try and incite an argument though Nick? The only thing you've succeeded in doing by calling out MJG, re: Smith, is to draw attention away from the validity of the remainder of your post - same with the dig at Alistair.
For once, I thought you'd constructed a fair and accurate opening post, and then you went and had a go at two people who have absolutely nothing to do with picking the team. It then slid from a possibly good and constructive thread back into more of your usual wind-up type postings.
You are right. I should have simply mentioned MJG's criticism of Matt Smith rather than embellish his views with provocative adjectives. I have edited it now.
Quote from: Nick Bateman on August 12, 2015, 05:42:15 PM
Blanco, I apologise for my wording, I've changed it to clarify. No offense to you was intended. I'm sure MJG can (and will) defend himself. As for Ali Mack he may be doing his best for Fulham's books perhaps, but not in my opinion for Fulham's playing staff.
Quote from: ToodlesMcToot on August 12, 2015, 05:40:51 PM
Why try and incite an argument though Nick? The only thing you've succeeded in doing by calling out MJG, re: Smith, is to draw attention away from the validity of the remainder of your post - same with the dig at Alistair.
For once, I thought you'd constructed a fair and accurate opening post, and then you went and had a go at two people who have absolutely nothing to do with picking the team. It then slid from a possibly good and constructive thread back into more of your usual wind-up type postings.
You are right. I should have simply mentioned MJG's criticism of Matt Smith rather than embellish his views with provocative adjectives. I have edited it now.
I do agree with your main point. For whichever perceived warts that come with playing him, Smith has done well for us and been consistent in his performances. Kit's responsibility in using him is to ensure that we don't fall into the predictability of playing route one balls to him. It's unnecessary. Hopefully, we can also convince Ross to expend a little less energy coming deep to pick up the ball so that he can begin making runs off of Matt.
Quote from: Nick Bateman on August 12, 2015, 05:12:35 PM
My last word on this topic is well done Kit Symons for taking this fixture seriously, playing virtually his first team with backup (like Smith) on the bench. A win lifts everyone's morale and the team's spirits.
Smith, McCormack & Kacaniklic as a triumvirate works for me too!
Not your last word then?
Ok I start with you Nick, go back over every post you make and I reply to and see that I don't have a go at you for your pov, but the use of 'facts' which I have on numerous occasions had to correct you about.
Everyone has their own views and mostly on here we can agree to disagree about a lot of things, but very rarely have I seen a poster name someone straight away as a target.
Not that I care I'm big enough and old enough to to stand by my views and arguments for or against a player. And more than happy to go toe toe over anything.
As for Smith I have never to my memory slagged him off as a player. I don't particular like tall players in my teams because it brings out the basic instinct of a footballer to knock it long. And that's what we have done. Anyone who saw first half at Cardiff would see that.
Is it effective.. Yes in a way. Is it the way I'd play him... No it isn't.
Let's look at the goal yesterday, he knocked down a pass to a player who then passed it to another who then passed it to Kaca to finish.
I don't see that as having made the goal but yes he was involved.
I'm short for time but will be back later to reply further.
But one last thing, if this had been aimed at anyone else the way you had mentioned a name to basically have a go at them, I would be defending that person to what is basically a personal attack.
I agree with NB about costing us the win by subbing Smith.
I remember him doing it last year as well, so unfortunately, it would worryingly appear that KS is not learning from his mistakes.
Mind u I've felt that for a while now.
Dembele simply doesn't have the threat that Smith does for the opposition. Yet.
COYW!
Quote from: Nick Bateman on August 12, 2015, 05:22:30 PM
Perhaps I should have left him out but I did remember him did singling out Matt Smith and no other player which was unfair, as though Smith is the root cause of Fulham's woes with his alleged poor passing stat. I'm sure MJG means well for Fulham as do I, but on this issue he is wrong to make it sound as though Smith is such a bad player!
It's not alleged. Squawka has his highest pass completion in his last 10 games for us at 67% - in a game where he attempted just 6 passes after coming on after 61 mins. Against Cardiff he completed just 48% of his passes. That's pretty damning.
And I don't recall MJG stating that Smith is the root cause for our issues.
Quote from: Skatzoffc on August 12, 2015, 06:17:26 PM
I agree with NB about costing us the win by subbing Smith.
I remember him doing it last year as well, so unfortunately, it would worryingly appear that KS is not learning from his mistakes.
Mind u I've felt that for a while now.
Dembele simply doesn't have the threat that Smith does for the opposition. Yet.
COYW!
Dembele offers a different threat to Smith though - and on Saturday, with Cardiff chasing the game, bringing a pacey striker on made absolute sense imo. I'm not a big fan of Kit and feel he makes either the wrong or no decision too often, but that was a decision that made sense to me.
Quote from: God The Mechanic on August 12, 2015, 06:21:44 PM
Quote from: Skatzoffc on August 12, 2015, 06:17:26 PM
I agree with NB about costing us the win by subbing Smith.
I remember him doing it last year as well, so unfortunately, it would worryingly appear that KS is not learning from his mistakes.
Mind u I've felt that for a while now.
Dembele simply doesn't have the threat that Smith does for the opposition. Yet.
COYW!
Dembele offers a different threat to Smith though - and on Saturday, with Cardiff chasing the game, bringing a pacey striker on made absolute sense imo. I'm not a big fan of Kit and feel he makes either the wrong or no decision too often, but that was a decision that made sense to me.
and if it wasn't for Ross fluffing his lines then Dembele would have set up the winner
Quote from: Nick Bateman on August 12, 2015, 05:12:35 PM
My last word on this topic is well done Kit Symons for taking this fixture seriously, playing virtually his first team with backup (like Smith) on the bench. A win lifts everyone's morale and the team's spirits.
Smith, McCormack & Kacaniklic as a triumvirate works for me too!
I may not agree with all of your posts but they do have the considerable merit of stimulating a discussion. However with your comments above I do agree 100%. Add O'Hara to the mix and things appear much brighter than in the previous two seasons.
Quoting stats for a sub are to my mind daft. He usually has about 15 minutes to get up to speed and on the same wave length as every one else.
I have no problem with route one football if it's effective against a team but to have it as your only weapon is going to be really limiting but that's for Kit to sort out. Players brought in would suggest it's not going to be.
Just for the record I think Smith's a real asset. He positions himself well to either receive the ball or pull players away from it and he thinks fast. I hope he gets a lot of football this season.
Quote from: MJG on August 12, 2015, 06:08:01 PM
Ok I start with you Nick, go back over every post you make and I reply to and see that I don't have a go at you for your pov, but the use of 'facts' which I have on numerous occasions had to correct you about.
Everyone has their own views and mostly on here we can agree to disagree about a lot of things, but very rarely have I seen a poster name someone straight away as a target.
Not that I care I'm big enough and old enough to to stand by my views and arguments for or against a player. And more than happy to go toe toe over anything.
As for Smith I have never to my memory slagged him off as a player. I don't particular like tall players in my teams because it brings out the basic instinct of a footballer to knock it long. And that's what we have done. Anyone who saw first half at Cardiff would see that.
Is it effective.. Yes in a way. Is it the way I'd play him... No it isn't.
Let's look at the goal yesterday, he knocked down a pass to a player who then passed it to another who then passed it to Kaca to finish.
I don't see that as having made the goal but yes he was involved.
I'm short for time but will be back later to reply further.
But one last thing, if this had been aimed at anyone else the way you had mentioned a name to basically have a go at them, I would be defending that person to what is basically a personal attack.
One gets certain impressions
MJG, and although you may not have meant to be only 'picking' me up on points, you were constantly so today I did likewise. Touché. Furthermore, you only singled out Matt Smith, whom I hold with great respect ever since I saw him in Oldham DOMINATE Liverpool's Skertel and (Ralph) Coates and destroy the reds. It was a case of David V Goliath, only this time
Goliath Matt Smith won!
QuoteHis striker Matt Smith — who, like the rest of the team, did not cost Oldham a penny — acted like a battering ram and scored twice in a thumping 3-2 success which was just as noteworthy for the indefatigable defending of Cliff Byrne and for the guile of Jose Baxter.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2269062/Oldham-3-Liverpool-2--match-report-Matt-Smith-scores-twice-Latics.html#ixzz3icnUaLrC (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2269062/Oldham-3-Liverpool-2--match-report-Matt-Smith-scores-twice-Latics.html#ixzz3icnUaLrC)
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It is not a case of long-balling it to someone aerially superior as Mourinho now seems to rely on provided we also include Kacaniklic who can apply genuine width and provide crosses for Smith to feed on. That's why I talked about playing both of them and not just one or the other.
I say allegedly
Mechanic because one has witnessed how they collect their stats. Years ago I saw Don Howe and two girls working for OPTA and they were simply counting passes on a TV screen, so I am very skeptical about so-called 'stats'. Plus as mentioned, more important details like holding up the ball are lost in gathering of possession records which are meaningless - Sam Allardyce lived by PROZONE but rarely did it give him anything of value. Far better to use one's judgement and general observation.
Twig, so it was not the last word, and I did miss a comma. My, somebody is incredibly pedantic today!?!
I concur also
Skatz, Dembele looks a lightweight up front and defenses have no trouble handling him.
Let's be clear whenever I have picked you up on your incorrect facts/points I've meant to.
Quote from: MJG on August 12, 2015, 07:21:08 PM
Let's be clear whenever I have picked you up on your incorrect facts/points I've meant to.
I see. Let's address one of those "incorrect" points you picked me up on. I stated Symons allowed Kacaniklic to be on loan - you said it was Magath - however it was continuing under Symons' watch when Fulham were sliding back down to the bottom again.
Who's to say KS could not have terminated the loan deal and recalled a much needed winger/forward when we seriously needed him? And when Kaca did return Symons rarely used him - many fans sang "You don't know what you're doing!" such was his poor selection decisions.
(http://38.media.tumblr.com/eb3a51c1d363972301b6e3ecfbe2b43c/tumblr_nbbylzpLrT1rlafseo1_500.gif)
Quote from: Nick Bateman on August 12, 2015, 07:40:16 PMQuote from: MJG on August 12, 2015, 07:21:08 PMLet's be clear whenever I have picked you up on your incorrect facts/points I've meant to.
I see. Let's address one of those "incorrect" points you picked me up on. I stated Symons allowed Kacaniklic to be on loan - you said it was Magath - however it was continuing under Symons' watch when Fulham were sliding back down to the bottom again.
Who's to say KS could not have terminated the loan deal and recalled a much needed winger/forward when we seriously needed him? And when Kaca did return Symons rarely used him - many fans sang "You don't know what you're doing!" such was his poor selection decisions.
Ok so you think that Kit could have recalled Kaca from this season long loan... http://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2014/september/01/new-deal-loan-for-kaca
Well I asked the club specifically this question and you can only recall season long loans during a transfer window and only if the agreement was done at the time of the loan.
Answer is here http://www.vivaelfulham.co.uk/players/football-loans-and-contract-rules-deciphered-10-524.html
So yes I pulled you up on this criticism of Kit when in fact his hands were tied.
Next
Just a little point NB on the facts in your statement stating " but it was Smith's headed knock-down ". In fact he used his chest.
A lot of your post I can see where you are coming from, but with Alex he is not strong enough, doesn't defend so exposes our full backs on the side he is playing, often they end up trying to cope with 2 players running at them.
Don't get me wrong I want him to do well and I stated on another post last night he needs a good run in the team or go out on loan again, but needs to work on his defending.
As for Smith like Cardiff, last night when he came on Wycombe had 2 players marking him all the time, which did create more space for our wide players to get forward resulting in a well made goal, he is a threat and at the moment think he should be in the starting line up.
MJG, you were nitpicking over a general point that he was on loan under KS's watch and then also not utilised much when he was allowed back. One could trawl the message board and nitpick a hundred different statements from others which are not exactly precise but generally correct, but you choose not to.
Also you've defended Alistair Mackintosh; who was the blithering idiot that did not include a clause to bring back a loanee?? You don't seem to see the damage this man is doing with dopey deals which are probably made in expediency (awaiting a explanation that Ali Mack did not act in expediency but it was a long thought out wonderful strategic plan to shed some excess squad members whom Magath did not want).
Quote from: brightster on August 12, 2015, 08:08:13 PM
Just a little point NB on the facts in your statement stating " but it was Smith's headed knock-down ". In fact he used his chest.
A lot of your post I can see where you are coming from, but with Alex he is not strong enough, doesn't defend so exposes our full backs on the side he is playing, often they end up trying to cope with 2 players running at them.
Don't get me wrong I want him to do well and I stated on another post last night he needs a good run in the team or go out on loan again, but needs to work on his defending.
As for Smith like Cardiff, last night when he came on Wycombe had 2 players marking him all the time, which did create more space for our wide players to get forward resulting in a well made goal, he is a threat and at the moment think he should be in the starting line up.
I wish Symons finally gives him 90 minutes, and also starts believing in Kacaniklic or I can see him being drawn elsewhere. Symons plays Pringle wide, which I do not agree with and we do not get the crosses from the left wing that Kaca could provide.
It's not nit picking. You said then and in the post above that Symons sent him on loan and did not recall him early. I corrected you on both points. You were trying to blame Kit for letting Kaca go out and not recalling him, both things that were out of his hands.
Alistair did have the clause in the loan because he came back in January, the earliest point the FA rules allow, seriously how stupid are you?
Kacaniklic is curate's eggish for me - but understand the points. Matt Smith, however, is more than a target man (though he is) he is a goal poacher - often gets a shot in - takes the tap-ins and is capable of a rasping drive. Has that right place/right time knack that is priceless. I believe he is under-valued by the majority and is a nailed in started for me.
Heresy, perhaps, but both Hutchinson & Burn are playing much better and both Richards & Voser are looking sound. Please no Kavanagh replacing the latter when he gets fit.
Of course further strengthening would be worthwhile, however.
So all in all, we are far & away a better unit than the shambles we started with last season - and dare I say it - a far better Manager, too.
Quote from: Bracken White on August 12, 2015, 08:21:41 PM
Kacaniklic is curate's eggish for me - but understand the points. Matt Smith, however, is more than a target man (though he is) he is a goal poacher - often gets a shot in - takes the tap-ins and is capable of a rasping drive. Has that right place/right time knack that is priceless. I believe he is under-valued by the majority and is a nailed in started for me.
Heresy, perhaps, but both Hutchinson & Burn are playing much better and both Richards & Voser are looking sound. Please no Kavanagh replacing the latter when he gets fit.
Of course further strengthening would be worthwhile, however.
So all in all, we are far & away a better unit than the shambles we started with last season - and dare I say it - a far better Manager, too.
:plus one:
Oh nick. I'm a big smith fan, kaka can be very good but is very inconsistent. We do tend to use him inconsistently so can you blame him? I don't know. Your OP makes good reading and some points but why must you mention Ali Mac in every post? There is no need or context in this and many other posts you post. Also singling MJG out is poor form IMO. I have had debates with MJG about smith and disagree with him usually regarding smith but that's what happens when you discuss football. MJG may pick through your posts more than others but you do tend to state everything as fact and quite often you are proven to not be factually correct. I'm not a stat man so in my posts I err on the side of caution and dilute my opinion and use of "facts" as there are many people on here who are very good at finding and using stats (almost always IMO in a positive not negative way. Either to help someone out when asked or defend their point). You seem to always need to make reasonable views just that little bit more concentrated (on my diluted analogy) and this may be why you can be treated differently than others. Please write what you want but I would much prefer reading your already interesting posts if you didn't blame Ali Mac (or mention him) or pick a challenge with another poster before he has responded.
Quote from: MJG on August 12, 2015, 08:20:04 PM
Alistair did have the clause in the loan because he came back in January, the earliest point the FA rules allow, seriously how stupid are you?
Oh it's Alistair is it? Is this the same Alistair who allowed Dimitar Berbatov to go on loan when Fulham were at the bottom of the PL? The same Alistair who just now allowed Mitroglou to go on loan and according to reports will accept around £4million for a player we paid £11million for??
And also, you are stupid MJG as according to clause 53.2.2
any other termination early of a standard loan must be made by mutual agreement in writing UNQUOTE. I've seen this happen many times before in the league - some clubs are more professionally managed than others. Had your friend Alistair forseen every eventuality he would have agreed this clause with the other party who would have accepted, obtaining a player of the calibre of Kacaniklic in their lower level league.
Quote from: Jonaldiniho 88 on August 12, 2015, 08:36:25 PM
Oh nick. I'm a big smith fan, kaka can be very good but is very inconsistent. We do tend to use him inconsistently so can you blame him? I don't know. Your OP makes good reading and some points but why must you mention Ali Mac in every post? There is no need or context in this and many other posts you post. Also singling MJG out is poor form IMO. I have had debates with MJG about smith and disagree with him usually regarding smith but that's what happens when you discuss football. MJG may pick through your posts more than others but you do tend to state everything as fact and quite often you are proven to not be factually correct. I'm not a stat man so in my posts I err on the side of caution and dilute my opinion and use of "facts" as there are many people on here who are very good at finding and using stats (almost always IMO in a positive not negative way. Either to help someone out when asked or defend their point). You seem to always need to make reasonable views just that little bit more concentrated (on my diluted analogy) and this may be why you can be treated differently than others. Please write what you want but I would much prefer reading your already interesting posts if you didn't blame Ali Mac (or mention him) or pick a challenge with another poster before he has responded.
Some good points Jonakliniho, allow me to explain why I mentioned MJG's friend Alistair.
The last time I was inspired by some players' performances was when Mitroglou came off the bench against C.Palace and I saw some real optimism and wrote about it on this forum. Barely a week had gone when "Alistair" decided to loan him to Benfica?
I wasn't the only one extolling "The Trog's" praise but the man who has made so many mistakes at this club continued by allowing this international forward to go on loan. We are not
Chelsea - we should not be doing LOANS -
period!!
Now again one sees a chink of light in the squad with barely any significant investment from Khan and the thought crossed my mind while prosing my epistle, "Will Mackintosh loan out either of these two quality players?" I had to voice it before he did so, so it's on record if the man does it again. And one hopes MJG or someone he communicates with tells him he can stop selling/loaning our BEST players because fans will not stand for it.
Alistair, Ally Mac, CEO, Mackintosh, whatever you want to use I use is no matter and just because I use his first name does not mean he's a friend so don't be silly.. Oh wait that's you all over.
If you carry on reading that clause it can still only be done in a window.
Also requires both clubs and players agreements.
For the record I don't think he should have gone on loan but at least we got an extension in place as well at same time.
Berbatov and Mitroglou are two subjects that have been spoken about many times. Some on here would have kept Berbatov others thought in first half of the season he was a waste of space.
Mitroglou has said he didn't want to play in the league, rightly or wrongly he has also gone. My understanding is the agreed buy out fee is more than the £4m you mention.
Anyway I'm done on this thread before I get in trouble. We both get under each others skin, for me it's your blatant bending of the facts or just lying to suit your argument. And then of course when caught out you just ignore the answer.
Quote from: Nick Bateman on August 12, 2015, 08:47:22 PM
Quote from: Jonaldiniho 88 on August 12, 2015, 08:36:25 PM
Oh nick. I'm a big smith fan, kaka can be very good but is very inconsistent. We do tend to use him inconsistently so can you blame him? I don't know. Your OP makes good reading and some points but why must you mention Ali Mac in every post? There is no need or context in this and many other posts you post. Also singling MJG out is poor form IMO. I have had debates with MJG about smith and disagree with him usually regarding smith but that's what happens when you discuss football. MJG may pick through your posts more than others but you do tend to state everything as fact and quite often you are proven to not be factually correct. I'm not a stat man so in my posts I err on the side of caution and dilute my opinion and use of "facts" as there are many people on here who are very good at finding and using stats (almost always IMO in a positive not negative way. Either to help someone out when asked or defend their point). You seem to always need to make reasonable views just that little bit more concentrated (on my diluted analogy) and this may be why you can be treated differently than others. Please write what you want but I would much prefer reading your already interesting posts if you didn't blame Ali Mac (or mention him) or pick a challenge with another poster before he has responded.
Some good points Jonakliniho, allow me to explain why I mentioned MJG's friend Alistair.
The last time I was inspired by some players' performances was when Mitroglou came off the bench against C.Palace and I saw some real optimism and wrote about it on this forum. Barely a week had gone when "Alistair" decided to loan him to Benfica?
I wasn't the only one extolling "The Trog's" praise but the man who has made so many mistakes at this club continued by allowing this international forward to go on loan. We are not Chelsea - we should not be doing LOANS - period!!
Now again one sees a chink of light in the squad with barely any significant investment from Khan and the thought crossed my mind while prosing my epistle, "Will Mackintosh loan out either of these two quality players?" I had to voice it before he did so, so it's on record if the man does it again. And one hopes MJG or someone he communicates with tells him he can stop selling/loaning our BEST players because fans will not stand for it.
I see the link you've made but I don't see the link personally. Everything at this club isn't Ali Macs decision and want away players probably deserve more blame than the CEO. I also understand that you want to get your opinion in first to have it on record and that's something most of us have in common. Will you admit you were wrong if wrong and praise Ali Mac for keeping them? For what it's worth I THINK that Ali Mac has far less control than you think and don't feel he is to blame for much of what you blame him for. Without trying to be too cheeky what I did there was highlight a word that changes my comment from an adamant statement and a vague opinion. I doubt I will get the abuse you do on this board for my post but if I said Ali Mac is definitely not ....... Then I would be open to more abuse.
Quote from: Jonaldiniho 88 on August 12, 2015, 09:02:32 PM
I see the link you've made but I don't see the link personally. Everything at this club isn't Ali Macs decision and want away players probably deserve more blame than the CEO. I also understand that you want to get your opinion in first to have it on record and that's something most of us have in common. Will you admit you were wrong if wrong and praise Ali Mac for keeping them? For what it's worth I THINK that Ali Mac has far less control than you think and don't feel he is to blame for much of what you blame him for. Without trying to be too cheeky what I did there was highlight a word that changes my comment from an adamant statement and a vague opinion. I doubt I will get the abuse you do on this board for my post but if I said Ali Mac is definitely not ....... Then I would be open to more abuse.
Jonaldiniho, I am a 'lay person' like many on here voicing their concerns. What I did see was Mackintosh presiding over many signings and departures so one has to feel he was making those calls. The sacking of René Muelensteen, I have a theory was NOT Mackintosh's idea, but something they had as a contingency as Magath was ready to step in immediately. I would dearly like to cease mentioning him negatively and as you say, praise him for some deal which helps Fulham and yes, I would admit if I was clearly found wrong (which MJG failed to show).
Only last week he allowed Mitroglou to go out on loan. One can make a bundle of excuses how Fulham could not have kept him, all of which are incorrect as we have his contract, and how he didn't wish to play in the Championship, again, if so, something a player can be swayed around, so on that basis why allow such a good player to leave us for a paltry £1.5million in wages??
Mackintosh is still in charge of the finances so he must carry the blame, even if Khan is telling him to lighten the purse load. Frankly, I don't see Khan as saying that.
As for Berbatov, he scored tons of goals the previous year, then
dried up in the following half season. Reason is obvious, Jol got rid of Zamora who was our hold-up player making Berbie play in that difficult role with Bryan Ruiz as "the answer to Fulham's goalscoring worries" as Jol stated. Ruiz as we know took a long time to settle which left Berbie all on his own. He went to Monaco and immediately showed what a class player he was.
Once again nick you are stating facts and creating a link that I can't see. Who is to be credited with smiths signing? Who is credited with Ohara, pringle, and cairney? If Ali Mac is to blame then he has to be credited for this business. If you honestly think Mitro was keen on staying and Ali Mac had everything to do with his leaving for 1.5m in wages and a possible sell on clause of 4m then I think that is naive. Why didn't Mitro leave earlier or stay with the Greek club he had played with before? Why didn't he go to sporting Lisbon? Why wasn't he spanned up first week of the window! Neither of us know the answers. We can assume. I would assume he wasn't wanted for what we wanted to sell for. I would assume the Greek club couldn't afford him. I would assume he would have gone to Lisbon but we got a better offer from benfica. All assumption but if true then Ali Mac did a very good job. Rigg is in charge of footballing matters so in letting Mitro go it's Riggs fault. Why didn't kit come out in the press and say we are desperate to keep him. Kits fault. The only truth is that this mess has been fulhamfc's fault. The rest is assumption.
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Quote from: Jonaldiniho 88 on August 12, 2015, 10:44:55 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on August 12, 2015, 10:41:41 PM
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Isn't it morning where you are? Sorry for boring you. Think that is quite rude. You could have just have nodded off and not been an arse (spelt the correct way).
That was directed to the author of this joke. Sorry that you got in the way.
Quote from: HatterDon on August 12, 2015, 10:53:55 PM
Quote from: Jonaldiniho 88 on August 12, 2015, 10:44:55 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on August 12, 2015, 10:41:41 PM
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Isn't it morning where you are? Sorry for boring you. Think that is quite rude. You could have just have nodded off and not been an arse (spelt the correct way).
That was directed to the author of this joke. Sorry that you got in the way.
I apologise. I also spelt arse ass in a post within the hour so I look more stupid than normal. Post will be deleted.
I can't agree with the supporters that still think Kaca should start, I hope he does improve and develope but for me at the moment he's at best on the bench with a lot to prove. It's frustrating as I believe he has great potential but doesn't assert himself and for a young player doesn't seem hungry enough for me
Quote from: HatterDon on August 12, 2015, 10:53:55 PM
Quote from: Jonaldiniho 88 on August 12, 2015, 10:44:55 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on August 12, 2015, 10:41:41 PM
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Isn't it morning where you are? Sorry for boring you. Think that is quite rude. You could have just have nodded off and not been an arse (spelt the correct way).
That was directed to the author of this joke. Sorry that you got in the way.
That was directed to the author of this 'joke'? So you wrote it to yourself??
Quote from: F.luke on August 12, 2015, 10:57:16 PM
I can't agree with the supporters that still think Kaca should start, I hope he does improve and develope but for me at the moment he's at best on the bench with a lot to prove. It's frustrating as I believe he has great potential but doesn't assert himself and for a young player doesn't seem hungry enough for me
I kinda agree but we haven't given him 5+ starts in a row since we have signed him have we? I may be wrong. Ross has looked pretty poor so far this season and his start yesterday tells me he isn't all that fit. Kaka was great preseason by all accounts and deserves a chance. I doubt he will get it. You wouldn't expect a cb to come in and be rock solid without continuity but that seems to be expected of other positions. I don't think he fits into our team (plan) unless pringle is dropped. A tough ask as he was highly rated. Pringle will get more consecutive games this season without doing as much because he is new and rated. For the record I don't think kaka is the finished article but we won't find out unless he plays consistently.
Quote from: Nick Bateman on August 12, 2015, 10:58:45 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on August 12, 2015, 10:53:55 PM
Quote from: Jonaldiniho 88 on August 12, 2015, 10:44:55 PM
Quote from: HatterDon on August 12, 2015, 10:41:41 PM
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Isn't it morning where you are? Sorry for boring you. Think that is quite rude. You could have just have nodded off and not been an arse (spelt the correct way).
That was directed to the author of this joke. Sorry that you got in the way.
That was directed to the author of this 'joke'? So you wrote it to yourself??
You have clearly chosen to answer other posts rather than mine. That doesn't put your credibility in good stead. You may well respond well to personal insult but it doesn't look like you can respond to measured critic. Honestly it's very poor. People you have critiqued show more class. Please prove me wrong.
Smithy looks like a proper decent bloke too and he's rather skilful for a giant!! I was watching the training before the game, the little drill between Burn, Smithy, Emo and Dembele, Smithys effort is second to none, he knows being a professional player and should give your all no matter your circumstances or views!! I can honestly see smithy becoming a Fulham icon!
Smith = Legend
Kaca = Lightweight
Sorry Alex :016:
Quote from: Bracken White on August 12, 2015, 08:21:41 PM
Kacaniklic is curate's eggish for me - but understand the points. Matt Smith, however, is more than a target man (though he is) he is a goal poacher - often gets a shot in - takes the tap-ins and is capable of a rasping drive. Has that right place/right time knack that is priceless. I believe he is under-valued by the majority and is a nailed in started for me.
Heresy, perhaps, but both Hutchinson & Burn are playing much better and both Richards & Voser are looking sound. Please no Kavanagh replacing the latter when he gets fit.
Of course further strengthening would be worthwhile, however.
So all in all, we are far & away a better unit than the shambles we started with last season - and dare I say it - a far better Manager, too.
Good points Bracken
I would like to see more Kaca but not at the expense of Pringle, who don't forget made our goal with a cracking effort on Saturday against Cardiff.
Still not entirely sure that Kaca is doing enough with his crossing opportunities but then I haven't been able to judge for myself for a whole game at the cottage recently.
On Matt Smith. He's a great joker up the sleeve to have. He seems to play smart, create chances and be in the right place. Should he start though? Not in my opinion. I honestly think he has more impact off the bench. He could be our Ole Gunnar (just not the same type of player). The question will become should continued impact off the bench warrant a start or cement the idea of him as a quality substitution option to have.
Having said all that I wouldn't start Woodrow.
Quote from: Ols_S on August 13, 2015, 11:21:42 AM
I would like to see more Kaca but not at the expense of Pringle, who don't forget made our goal with a cracking effort on Saturday against Cardiff.
Still not entirely sure that Kaca is doing enough with his crossing opportunities but then I haven't been able to judge for myself for a whole game at the cottage recently.
On Matt Smith. He's a great joker up the sleeve to have. He seems to play smart, create chances and be in the right place. Should he start though? Not in my opinion. I honestly think he has more impact off the bench. He could be our Ole Gunnar (just not the same type of player). The question will become should continued impact off the bench warrant a start or cement the idea of him as a quality substitution option to have.
Having said all that I wouldn't start Woodrow.
He's a leftie playing mostly down the right so his crossing won't be that good
Quote from: fulhamben on August 13, 2015, 11:49:07 AM
Quote from: Ols_S on August 13, 2015, 11:21:42 AM
I would like to see more Kaca but not at the expense of Pringle, who don't forget made our goal with a cracking effort on Saturday against Cardiff.
Still not entirely sure that Kaca is doing enough with his crossing opportunities but then I haven't been able to judge for myself for a whole game at the cottage recently.
On Matt Smith. He's a great joker up the sleeve to have. He seems to play smart, create chances and be in the right place. Should he start though? Not in my opinion. I honestly think he has more impact off the bench. He could be our Ole Gunnar (just not the same type of player). The question will become should continued impact off the bench warrant a start or cement the idea of him as a quality substitution option to have.
Having said all that I wouldn't start Woodrow.
He's a leftie playing mostly down the right so his crossing won't be that good
That makes sense. Playing out of position then?
Quote from: Jonaldiniho 88 on August 12, 2015, 09:54:37 PM
Once again nick you are stating facts and creating a link that I can't see. Who is to be credited with smiths signing? Who is credited with Ohara, pringle, and cairney? If Ali Mac is to blame then he has to be credited for this business. If you honestly think Mitro was keen on staying and Ali Mac had everything to do with his leaving for 1.5m in wages and a possible sell on clause of 4m then I think that is naive. Why didn't Mitro leave earlier or stay with the Greek club he had played with before? Why didn't he go to sporting Lisbon? Why wasn't he spanned up first week of the window! Neither of us know the answers. We can assume. I would assume he wasn't wanted for what we wanted to sell for. I would assume the Greek club couldn't afford him. I would assume he would have gone to Lisbon but we got a better offer from benfica. All assumption but if true then Ali Mac did a very good job. Rigg is in charge of footballing matters so in letting Mitro go it's Riggs fault. Why didn't kit come out in the press and say we are desperate to keep him. Kits fault. The only truth is that this mess has been fulhamfc's fault. The rest is assumption.
Jonaldiniho, I was allowing you to have the last word to put the case (above) for Mackintosh and the positives about his work but you have demanded that I respond so I shall.
Rather than a long composition here is the abridged version: pleased he signed Mitroglou, unlucky he got injured in training and also omitted on occasion by
Mad Magath, but the striker could have been injured/suspended at any time in our run-in and it was lunacy to allow Dimitar Berbatov to leave on loan when Fulham needed EVERY hand!! Berbatov with a proper striking partner would have paid dividends (goals) and possibly kept Fulham up.
Mackintosh has allowed O'Hara, Pringle and Cairney to be recruited by Mike
"Rigsby" Rigg but which players has he not? Rumours abound regarding two quality central defenders not acquired because HE was haggling over the figures (Lewis Dunk for example); was Dwight Gayle also turned down by his 'penny pinching' all to impress Khan, which frankly does not impress this patron??!
After seeing Mitroglou look as though he wants to play a role in the squad the Greek forward is carted off to Benfica on loan. Why are Fulham continually loaning our good players out?? Mitroglou, Smith, Kaca? This is ALL Mackintosh's money management affecting the squad. He seems to be so keen to save money at the expense of the team and the paying fans but in the end it could cost Fulham promotion which would make any such short-term meagre savings look puny in comparison.
Rigg has only taken over the identification of which players to get, Mackintosh is still in the power position of agreeing to sign them and his style is too frugal for my liking.
That is the last I will say on this - one hopes by answering I've shown the 'class' you wanted Jonaldiniho.
As for Kacaniklic, he must play on the left and Pringle play in the middle instead of LVC who hasn't looked so good since and during UEFA U-21s where he was hopeless! Pringle is being played out-of-position because he is a utility man, but Symons once again tries to force round pegs into square holes. Play Kaca regularly on the left and soon his few detractors will be won over.
Quote from: Ols_S on August 13, 2015, 12:15:31 PM
Quote from: fulhamben on August 13, 2015, 11:49:07 AM
Quote from: Ols_S on August 13, 2015, 11:21:42 AM
I would like to see more Kaca but not at the expense of Pringle, who don't forget made our goal with a cracking effort on Saturday against Cardiff.
Still not entirely sure that Kaca is doing enough with his crossing opportunities but then I haven't been able to judge for myself for a whole game at the cottage recently.
On Matt Smith. He's a great joker up the sleeve to have. He seems to play smart, create chances and be in the right place. Should he start though? Not in my opinion. I honestly think he has more impact off the bench. He could be our Ole Gunnar (just not the same type of player). The question will become should continued impact off the bench warrant a start or cement the idea of him as a quality substitution option to have.
Having said all that I wouldn't start Woodrow.
He's a leftie playing mostly down the right so his crossing won't be that good
That makes sense. Playing out of position then?
slightly, but lots play the inverted role nowadays. Take duff as an example, I think he played the majority down the right. I'm not a fan of it though
Quote from: Scrumpy on August 13, 2015, 01:54:12 AM
Smith = Legend
Kaca = Lightweight
Sorry Alex :016:
Smith will have to perform well for a long time before he reaches 'legend' status.
Kaca, unfortunately,
is lightweight and only impresses when unpressurised and in space. His vision and pass accuracy is poor imo and he is easily knocked off the ball. Ok, he's scored a couple of goals, the last one was a neat finish, but so it should have been, given how he'd been set up. I would add that i haven't watched Tuesday's highlights yet and hope to be proved wrong.
Smith reminds me a bit of Zamora, albeit more of a tank. I think he needs a strike partner to hold the ball up for (give him 20 minutes with Dembele up front, see what happens) to be as good as his potential. But I like him
Kaca is one of my favourite players. I have his name on the back of a shirt. I feel he has buckets of potential and has been improving since the 5-0 vs Norwich couple years back.
Seems like I'm agreeing with you, Nick. Happening quite regularly these days - scary innit? ;)
Quote from: Nick Bateman on August 13, 2015, 02:28:42 PM
Rumours abound regarding two quality central defenders not acquired because HE was haggling over the figures (Lewis Dunk for example); was Dwight Gayle also turned down by his 'penny pinching' all to impress Khan, which frankly does not impress this patron??!
I'm quite enjoying this debate from an outside prospective.
Just to dive in Nick. I understand what you are saying but the above passage highlights somes frustrations with your posts. You start the sentence with "Rumours" which is correct and then carry on like the rumours are statements of fact. It may be that Ali Mac's haggling had an effect on those deals (we will never know lets be honest) but then you throw in a rumour of your own by questioning whether Dwight Gayle not joining (yet! Fingers crossed) is Ali Mac's fault as well. May be Dwight Gayle doesn't want to drop down a league. I also wonder whether he would actually make a huge amount of difference but that is another debate all together.
I also appreciate that you would like to see some money spent, who doesn't. But I would honestly rather the club doesn't throw money around. It encourages higher demands from other clubs and may also mean that when we do want to throw larger chunks around we've already spent it elsewhere. Just my two cents.
Nick I happen to think the point you make is a fair one,if the way its written affends some posters so be it cause you cant win em all.
Quote from: hovewhite on August 13, 2015, 06:11:41 PM
Nick I happen to think the point you make is a fair one,if the way its written affends some posters so be it cause you cant win em all.
offends some posters? He personally digs out MJG.someone who adds way more to this board than nick
Quote from: MJG on August 12, 2015, 08:56:44 PM
Alistair, Ally Mac, CEO, Mackintosh, whatever you want to use I use is no matter and just because I use his first name does not mean he's a friend so don't be silly.. Oh wait that's you all over.
If you carry on reading that clause it can still only be done in a window.
Also requires both clubs and players agreements.
For the record I don't think he should have gone on loan but at least we got an extension in place as well at same time.
Berbatov and Mitroglou are two subjects that have been spoken about many times. Some on here would have kept Berbatov others thought in first half of the season he was a waste of space.
Mitroglou has said he didn't want to play in the league, rightly or wrongly he has also gone. My understanding is the agreed buy out fee is more than the £4m you mention.
Anyway I'm done on this thread before I get in trouble. We both get under each others skin, for me it's your blatant bending of the facts or just lying to suit your argument. And then of course when caught out you just ignore the answer.
MJG, your contributions to this board are respected by almost all posters. They are considered and well informed.
I have read most of your corrections of NB's factual inaccuracies, which are many and blatant, you do not nick pick and in the case of Kit's involvement in Kaka's loan spell you are spot in in your statement of the facts.
As Jona says Nick has the unfortunate habit of presenting opinions as facts. He emphasises this by
underlining, CAPITALISING and
bolding his assertions which draws further attention to them. So if they prove to be incorrect he is almost begging for someone to correct him.
Personally I cannot understand anyone seeking attention so dramatically but each to their own. However if you put yourself out there to be shot at Nick don't be surprised if you cop a few bullets.
Quote from: Twig on August 13, 2015, 06:31:53 PM
Quote from: MJG on August 12, 2015, 08:56:44 PM
Alistair, Ally Mac, CEO, Mackintosh, whatever you want to use I use is no matter and just because I use his first name does not mean he's a friend so don't be silly.. Oh wait that's you all over.
If you carry on reading that clause it can still only be done in a window.
Also requires both clubs and players agreements.
For the record I don't think he should have gone on loan but at least we got an extension in place as well at same time.
Berbatov and Mitroglou are two subjects that have been spoken about many times. Some on here would have kept Berbatov others thought in first half of the season he was a waste of space.
Mitroglou has said he didn't want to play in the league, rightly or wrongly he has also gone. My understanding is the agreed buy out fee is more than the £4m you mention.
Anyway I'm done on this thread before I get in trouble. We both get under each others skin, for me it's your blatant bending of the facts or just lying to suit your argument. And then of course when caught out you just ignore the answer.
MJG, your contributions to this board are respected by almost all posters. They are considered and well informed.
I have read most of your corrections of NB's factual inaccuracies, which are many and blatant, you do not nick pick and in the case of Kit's involvement in Kaka's loan spell you are spot in in your statement of the facts.
As Jona says Nick has the unfortunate habit of presenting opinions as facts. He emphasises this by underlining, CAPITALISING and bolding his assertions which draws further attention to them. So if they prove to be incorrect he is almost begging for someone to correct him.
Personally I cannot understand anyone seeking attention so dramatically but each to their own. However if you put yourself out there to be shot at Nick don't be surprised if you cop a few bullets.
For me, to attack MJG in this manner deserves a few hand granades.
Sorry if I am a bit off topic what with the various wars going on here but I have been offering shots of green chartreuse to all and sundry who can recall an occasion when the swede has beat his full back and smashed over a cross for a striker to score.....not had a response yet so beginning to wonder whether he has yet to achieve such a feat or whether it's that green chartreuse is not held in quite the high esteem it was in the bohemian years.
coyw
Quote from: Jem on August 13, 2015, 09:14:51 PM
Quote from: Twig on August 13, 2015, 06:31:53 PM
Quote from: MJG on August 12, 2015, 08:56:44 PM
Alistair, Ally Mac, CEO, Mackintosh, whatever you want to use I use is no matter and just because I use his first name does not mean he's a friend so don't be silly.. Oh wait that's you all over.
If you carry on reading that clause it can still only be done in a window.
Also requires both clubs and players agreements.
For the record I don't think he should have gone on loan but at least we got an extension in place as well at same time.
Berbatov and Mitroglou are two subjects that have been spoken about many times. Some on here would have kept Berbatov others thought in first half of the season he was a waste of space.
Mitroglou has said he didn't want to play in the league, rightly or wrongly he has also gone. My understanding is the agreed buy out fee is more than the £4m you mention.
Anyway I'm done on this thread before I get in trouble. We both get under each others skin, for me it's your blatant bending of the facts or just lying to suit your argument. And then of course when caught out you just ignore the answer.
MJG, your contributions to this board are respected by almost all posters. They are considered and well informed.
I have read most of your corrections of NB's factual inaccuracies, which are many and blatant, you do not nick pick and in the case of Kit's involvement in Kaka's loan spell you are spot in in your statement of the facts.
As Jona says Nick has the unfortunate habit of presenting opinions as facts. He emphasises this by underlining, CAPITALISING and bolding his assertions which draws further attention to them. So if they prove to be incorrect he is almost begging for someone to correct him.
Personally I cannot understand anyone seeking attention so dramatically but each to their own. However if you put yourself out there to be shot at Nick don't be surprised if you cop a few bullets.
For me, to attack MJG in this manner deserves a few hand granades.
In what manner?? To disagree wholeheartedly with his downrating a Fulham centre-forward (before a ball was kicked this season)?? Unless he's The Queen I, and others, have every right to point out his misleading observation, using Opta stats or what-not to basically state that Smith is not good enough for Fulham.
That is in the face of watching him TERRORIZE defences when he is allowed to play and not be loaned out by "Alistair" or dropped by Kit, and then viewing the games by hapless Cauley Woodrow chasing shadows, or young Dembele again trying his earnest but looking very raw particularly in the box. But of course you will rather agree with your "mate" MJG
Jem, instead of listen to the argument and decide what is best for Fulham.
I pointed out that a clause should have been included in any loan deal and the one with Kaca which MJG attempted to state he could not be brought back early - but in the link he posted it shows that had a clause been agreed with the Danish club he went to he could very well have been brought back early if we needed him. This is common practise in the league and on numerous occasions I have seen this occur. But Mackintosh probably (one assumes) failed to include this clause so Symons had to wait until the next transfer window.
That shows INCOMPETANCE and the man has learned nothing from being an instrument in Fulham's fall from Premier Division grace.
Quote from: Sheepskin Junior on August 13, 2015, 03:07:04 PM
Smith reminds me a bit of Zamora, albeit more of a tank. I think he needs a strike partner to hold the ball up for (give him 20 minutes with Dembele up front, see what happens) to be as good as his potential. But I like him
Kaca is one of my favourite players. I have his name on the back of a shirt. I feel he has buckets of potential and has been improving since the 5-0 vs Norwich couple years back.
Seems like I'm agreeing with you, Nick. Happening quite regularly these days - scary innit? ;)
Yes
Sheepskin Junior, Smith does have the physical attributes of Zamora and the style but I feel his potential is greater. The last couple of seasons Kacaniklic, perhaps because of a slow decline in the quality of our squad, is now standing out as one of Fulham's best, but I feel Symons is not using him enough and preferring to play Pringle out of position rather than a natural wide leftie who could give the strikers better service - plus the pace Kaca has is second to none in our team.
Pace is a major weapon in football. One sees the likes of Gareth Bale and even Raheem Sterling giving opponents massive problems, purely on their having pace; take that away from those two and they would never command the record transfer fees they commanded. As said, play Kaca on the left wing over a few games and EVERYONE will see his true worth.
Quote from: Ols_S on August 13, 2015, 03:56:43 PM
Quote from: Nick Bateman on August 13, 2015, 02:28:42 PM
Rumours abound regarding two quality central defenders not acquired because HE was haggling over the figures (Lewis Dunk for example); was Dwight Gayle also turned down by his 'penny pinching' all to impress Khan, which frankly does not impress this patron??!
I'm quite enjoying this debate from an outside prospective.
Just to dive in Nick. I understand what you are saying but the above passage highlights somes frustrations with your posts. You start the sentence with "Rumours" which is correct and then carry on like the rumours are statements of fact. It may be that Ali Mac's haggling had an effect on those deals (we will never know lets be honest) but then you throw in a rumour of your own by questioning whether Dwight Gayle not joining (yet! Fingers crossed) is Ali Mac's fault as well. May be Dwight Gayle doesn't want to drop down a league. I also wonder whether he would actually make a huge amount of difference but that is another debate all together.
I also appreciate that you would like to see some money spent, who doesn't. But I would honestly rather the club doesn't throw money around. It encourages higher demands from other clubs and may also mean that when we do want to throw larger chunks around we've already spent it elsewhere. Just my two cents.
Ols, some posters have invented remarks that I state rumours/opinions as FACTS which I have not. They have such a feeble counterpoint they need to exaggerate what is being highlighted. I am casting DOUBT on the people running our football club and providing examples of where things MAY have been botched or misappropriated. I think everyone accepts extensive errors were made at the top to put Fulham in the predicament of being demoted, and to date, I do not see this changing!!
So Alistair has saved the club £1.5million in wages by loaning an international striker out just as he was looking the part. Hoorah!! Let's have a street party with bunting, Ali Mack has saved us £1.5million and has possibly cost Fulham
certain promotion by rather than having a fantastic squad, having just a slightly decent one. The math does not add up.
One doesn't know about Gayle; he was here and then he went. Draw your own conclusions. About Dunk, same again. What one does begin to see is a pattern, that Mackintosh is more keen on saving a few bob than ensuring Fulham gain a tremendous talent. I could be mistaken but that is what I believe is happening.
Quote from: hovewhite on August 13, 2015, 06:11:41 PM
Nick I happen to think the point you make is a fair one,if the way its written affends some posters so be it cause you cant win em all.
Exactly
Hovewhite. Nobody minded when MJG constantly picked me up on minor details and miss the entire thrust of my posting, but I do so once back to him, and then some folk are upset. I am human also, if you p**** me do I not bleed??
In the end, what is best for Fulham the team matters most - one does not welcome a "Ken Bates" style of fiscal control at the club but rather a "Matthew Harding" vision.
We CAN win
automatic promotion this season if we cease loaning out our best players, bring in a few and actually have a go. If Mackintosh is on board for that concept then I will back him all the way.
Quote from: Travers Barney on August 13, 2015, 10:10:58 PM
Sorry if I am a bit off topic what with the various wars going on here but I have been offering shots of green chartreuse to all and sundry who can recall an occasion when the swede has beat his full back and smashed over a cross for a striker to score.....not had a response yet so beginning to wonder whether he has yet to achieve such a feat or whether it's that green chartreuse is not held in quite the high esteem it was in the bohemian years.
coyw
Well formulated counter-point and with some humour. I would say Kaca is only 23 years old NOW, and much of his past was part of a learning curve. But given a regular place and in this lower level league, he will shine and his pace will be his biggest weapon which Northerners will struggle to contain.
Quote from: Travers Barney on August 13, 2015, 10:10:58 PM
Sorry if I am a bit off topic what with the various wars going on here but I have been offering shots of green chartreuse to all and sundry who can recall an occasion when the swede has beat his full back and smashed over a cross for a striker to score.....not had a response yet so beginning to wonder whether he has yet to achieve such a feat or whether it's that green chartreuse is not held in quite the high esteem it was in the bohemian years.
coyw
I've never heard of the 'Green Chartreuse' award for fiction, for that's what your scenario is. Your bottle will remain undiminished i fear.
Quote from: Nick Bateman on August 13, 2015, 02:28:42 PM
Quote from: Jonaldiniho 88 on August 12, 2015, 09:54:37 PM
Once again nick you are stating facts and creating a link that I can't see. Who is to be credited with smiths signing? Who is credited with Ohara, pringle, and cairney? If Ali Mac is to blame then he has to be credited for this business. If you honestly think Mitro was keen on staying and Ali Mac had everything to do with his leaving for 1.5m in wages and a possible sell on clause of 4m then I think that is naive. Why didn't Mitro leave earlier or stay with the Greek club he had played with before? Why didn't he go to sporting Lisbon? Why wasn't he spanned up first week of the window! Neither of us know the answers. We can assume. I would assume he wasn't wanted for what we wanted to sell for. I would assume the Greek club couldn't afford him. I would assume he would have gone to Lisbon but we got a better offer from benfica. All assumption but if true then Ali Mac did a very good job. Rigg is in charge of footballing matters so in letting Mitro go it's Riggs fault. Why didn't kit come out in the press and say we are desperate to keep him. Kits fault. The only truth is that this mess has been fulhamfc's fault. The rest is assumption.
Jonaldiniho, I was allowing you to have the last word to put the case (above) for Mackintosh and the positives about his work but you have demanded that I respond so I shall.
Rather than a long composition here is the abridged version: pleased he signed Mitroglou, unlucky he got injured in training and also omitted on occasion by Mad Magath, but the striker could have been injured/suspended at any time in our run-in and it was lunacy to allow Dimitar Berbatov to leave on loan when Fulham needed EVERY hand!! Berbatov with a proper striking partner would have paid dividends (goals) and possibly kept Fulham up.
Mackintosh has allowed O'Hara, Pringle and Cairney to be recruited by Mike "Rigsby" Rigg but which players has he not? Rumours abound regarding two quality central defenders not acquired because HE was haggling over the figures (Lewis Dunk for example); was Dwight Gayle also turned down by his 'penny pinching' all to impress Khan, which frankly does not impress this patron??!
After seeing Mitroglou look as though he wants to play a role in the squad the Greek forward is carted off to Benfica on loan. Why are Fulham continually loaning our good players out?? Mitroglou, Smith, Kaca? This is ALL Mackintosh's money management affecting the squad. He seems to be so keen to save money at the expense of the team and the paying fans but in the end it could cost Fulham promotion which would make any such short-term meagre savings look puny in comparison.
Rigg has only taken over the identification of which players to get, Mackintosh is still in the power position of agreeing to sign them and his style is too frugal for my liking.
That is the last I will say on this - one hopes by answering I've shown the 'class' you wanted Jonaldiniho.
As for Kacaniklic, he must play on the left and Pringle play in the middle instead of LVC who hasn't looked so good since and during UEFA U-21s where he was hopeless! Pringle is being played out-of-position because he is a utility man, but Symons once again tries to force round pegs into square holes. Play Kaca regularly on the left and soon his few detractors will be won over.
Thanks for responding. I still find you blame Ali Mac for too much for making decisions you don't know he made. Once again you have created a post that people want to comment on and I enjoy your posts a lot although I often don't agree or don't agree with aspects. This one is no different. Thanks for letting me have the previous last word and keep posting. My OPs never get the replies yours do. That says something. Probably down to Ali Mac making people uninterested in my posts haha. Only joking.
If anything Kacaniklic's progress has completely stalled from our relegation season onwards. He ended the 12/13 campaign as the best player on the pitch against Swansea, and a winger who looked like he could score goals. Since then it's been a mix of being hauled off by Jol, going out on loan or playing out of position. Hopefully Kaca can finally push on.
Ols, some posters have invented remarks that I state rumours/opinions as FACTS which I have not. They have such a feeble counterpoint they need to exaggerate what is being highlighted. I am casting DOUBT on the people running our football club and providing examples of where things MAY have been botched or misappropriated. I think everyone accepts extensive errors were made at the top to put Fulham in the predicament of being demoted, and to date, I do not see this changing!!
So Alistair has saved the club £1.5million in wages by loaning an international striker out just as he was looking the part. Hoorah!! Let's have a street party with bunting, Ali Mack has saved us £1.5million and has possibly cost Fulham certain promotion by rather than having a fantastic squad, having just a slightly decent one. The math does not add up.
One doesn't know about Gayle; he was here and then he went. Draw your own conclusions. About Dunk, same again. What one does begin to see is a pattern, that Mackintosh is more keen on saving a few bob than ensuring Fulham gain a tremendous talent. I could be mistaken but that is what I believe is happening.
[/quote]
I agree that maybe the club could have been handled better over the last several seasons but I don't think that falls on one person as has been endlessly discussed on here.
I too have doubts over what has and hasn't gone on at the club but to blame Ali Mac for loaning out a striker who has stated he doesn't want to play here seems sensible. You may have seen the photos on the offal of Mitro's return to training. It didn't look like an open arm welcome back from the squad. I have no doubt that he is a quality player. But having someone around that doesn't want to be here is likely to affect the squad mentality and harmony as a whole. Its a fragile state of mind anyway I would assume after what was a pretty disastrous season last year.
Just to address the wage few bob comment. Maybe that is what is happening. But can I ask would you like to see Dunk here on £35k when he maybe warrants £15k? Again with Gayle as I said above we don't really have control over his wages so who knows why that deal stalled (if there ever was one in the pipeline). I also wouldn't put us not being promotion candidates on Ali Mac. The existing talent at the club should have performed better last season. This season we will have to wait and see. I don't think a Dunk or a Gayle are the key solution some are claiming. Just an opinion.
I enjoy your posts. Some have some merit to them, some don't (in my opinion), but you always get a good heated argument going!
Quote from: EJL on August 14, 2015, 01:28:09 AM
If anything Kacaniklic's progress has completely stalled from our relegation season onwards. He ended the 12/13 campaign as the best player on the pitch against Swansea, and a winger who looked like he could score goals. Since then it's been a mix of being hauled off by Jol, going out on loan or playing out of position. Hopefully Kaca can finally push on.
I agree. Although at least he was part of a great deal of cash plus him and delle valle for Paul Konchesky.
I would think that first team football would help him progress, but he has had first team loans. Hopefully we can see his form from preseason and the Capital One carry into the league.
Kacaniklic is a funny player. Yes, he's good at running with the ball and being direct but far too many times he's just ran into the wrong place and should have offloaded the ball sooner etc.
Obviously there's potential but with one-year left on his deal I can't see him featuring heavily if he's not in the long-term plans of the club.
Quote from: Bronaldinho on August 14, 2015, 09:39:47 AM
Kacaniklic is a funny player. Yes, he's good at running with the ball and being direct but far too many times he's just ran into the wrong place and should have offloaded the ball sooner etc.
Obviously there's potential but with one-year left on his deal I can't see him featuring heavily if he's not in the long-term plans of the club.
That is shocking news!! Kacaniklic on last year of contract. This would be utter folly if we don't get him to renew it now, even if he isn't wanted by Symons.
Quote from: Nick Bateman on August 14, 2015, 02:25:41 PM
Quote from: Bronaldinho on August 14, 2015, 09:39:47 AM
Kacaniklic is a funny player. Yes, he's good at running with the ball and being direct but far too many times he's just ran into the wrong place and should have offloaded the ball sooner etc.
Obviously there's potential but with one-year left on his deal I can't see him featuring heavily if he's not in the long-term plans of the club.
That is shocking news!! Kacaniklic on last year of contract. This would be utter folly if we don't get him to renew it now, even if he isn't wanted by Symons.
I agree it would be a shame to lose what is a decent squad player for nothing. At least we didn't pay anything for him!
The Club (any club) when handing out a contract would work out the worth of that player to them over a set period. If the player performs really well or other Clubs become interested in them, the Club may step in early and renew, if both parties agree. If on the other hand the player doesn't improve or the playing style changes etc etc the Club may not offer him another contract and he leaves at the end of it. The Club meantime looks to invest elsewhere. You (who knows his footie) like the rest of us knows very little about what is actually happening within the Club. You're ignoring the players value to all those involved with him at the Club. Which only they know, so you can continue to having a pop at someone you detest.
I do not detest Ali Mac. I just did not like many decisions he made which has harmed the club I care for. Simples.
