English football could be heading for its biggest shake-up since the creation of the Premier League in 1992.
The Football League wants to create an extra division with 20 teams in each from 2019-20.
It would mean England had 100 teams in five divisions, up from 92. Currently, there are 24 teams in the Championship, League One and League Two.
The Football League says the move would tackle fixture congestion and boost the finances of its members.
The Premier League and the FA have backed the proposal "in principle".
The current 72 Football League clubs will decide whether they support the move at their annual general meeting in June 2017.
"There are clear benefits for everyone," Football League chief executive Shaun Harvey told BBC Sport.
"It is about taking a step back to try to work out what is best for English football. We hope that the Football League taking this first step is the catalyst for future change."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36335384
I'm 100% behind this move
Quick reaction.
Four less home games of income for teams. How will they make up the difference... Ticket prices?
Seems they want to reduce midweek games... I quite like them but if they stopped sending London teams to Manchester on a Tuesday in December and maybe had a more local game that might help.
So many questions! How would you reduce the Champipnship to 20 teams? Relegate 4 teams and promote none? Imagine if you won League 1 and weren't promoted.
Quote from: lomotd on May 19, 2016, 06:25:31 PM
So many questions! How would you reduce the Champipnship to 20 teams? Relegate 4 teams and promote none? Imagine if you won League 1 and weren't promoted.
I think you'd relegate six and promote two, or five and one.
Like when the Premier League went from 22 to 20, they sent four down and brought two up
We'll be back in the Premier League before this all kicks in though, so don't worry about it
There's got to be promotion during this change otherwise the season will be a non event!
I doubt very much that it would all be done in one season eg six down and two up.
Would they want to do away with the play-offs for two seasons and then relegate 4 clubs and promote 2 because that would be the simple answer with the least amount of fuss IMO.
I see this as a way for the big clubs to have a b team in the football league, so not surprised they and the premier league would back the plan
I hate change. I hate change for the sake of change. I am not sure how this will benefit anybody. Other than that I am all for people with too much time on their hands ignoring the problems of football and trying to invent new ones.
I appreciate that all ideas that have succeeded in the game were probably once frowned upon and this could be exactly the same. But imo.....what a load of nonsense.
I don't really see the point of it and MJG makes a brilliant point. Smaller divisions will mean fewer home games which can only result in clubs that depend on that income to survive losing revenue. UNLESS, they do the obvious thing and increase ticket prices to compensate for it. Some brain box then creates a pointless 5 tier pyramid and the fans lose out once again.
And surely if there are 8 more teams, they will be Conference clubs some of which probably won't be ready for league football. They will be put in a position where they have to spend out of their comfort zone to survive or be relegated which is never a good idea. In turn the little TV money those league two clubs get from Sky will shrink as it will be shared amongst 8 more clubs and they will all be on live even less if at all.
So who exactly benefits from this change? I can't see it as the premier league is the money maker and that won't be edited. Change for changes sake to me
Dann premier league clubs who want a b team benefit
And what is wrong with the number of championship teams? We don't have 19 Europa league fixtures to add into the equation. Our cup runs are generally shorter than premiership teams. If you want to scrap meaningless fixtures, do away with the league cup .. whatever it is called nowadays.
Oh and while I'm at it, scrap friendly week-end internationals that cancel all real football over week-ends, including Easter this year. Let them play these meaningless fixtures on a Wednesday night between a proper fixture list. They are in reality only training games after all.
Onwards .. in a real football kind of way ...
Doing away with midweek games will ruin football. Like MJG says above the way to make midweek games plausible for everyone is to arrange them around geography. Which means we play QPR away rather than Middlesborough. Then the home club are likely to get more income from away followings. You can't blame midweek congestion and then sanction pointless international friendlies 3 times a season.
And again a B team scenario would ruin football in this country. It might work in Spain but no other country has the infrastructure we have throughout the leagues. There isn't room for B teams and this stupid idea proves it.
Instead of B teams, how about forcing the big clubs to play some youngsters instead of get around the homegrown limit with another loophole. If they gave them a chance instead of splashing cash on the next best foreigner then they wouldnt need a B team.
Surely it isn't rocket science. Is it?
I can't see league clubs agreeing to having four less home fixtures with the obvious loss of income.
It will also mean an extra promotion required to reach the big time. Ok that is a long way off for these little clubs but by adding an extra division you give them one more hurdle to climb and make it a lot harder to survive as every division will have 4 less teams. We would have gone down both this this season and last if that was the case.
Would mean either dilution of limited TV time for lower league clubs or more meddling with fixtures from Sky, along with less gate money as a result of fewer home games. Fewer midweek games, higher ticket prices -- losing all round.
theyre looking to improve the product to appeal to a global audience, which will inevitably mean the introduction of some kind of gimmick .
I know it sounds gimmicky or Americanised but my idea would be to have a derby weekend where all the teams in the league played their main rival or local team. Ie we play qpr, Birmingham play villa, burton/Derby/ forest etc and all games staggered to be televised but at accessible times. It should show off the passion and intensity of the league and big selling point for investor or sponsor.
However to say to cut down 8 games a season will improve the football, or attendances is just pie in the sky.
Like that Derby week idea but not every club has a Derby in our league do they?
I loathe the idea of premier league "B" teams, that's all about making the rich richer
This looks like an attempt at a stitch up to me, by the Premier League and the FA.
The Premier League and the FA want to move the FA Cup to a mid week competition to free up more weekends for Premier league games to be screened on television. The FA Cup can't be played midweek if there are lots of Football League matches going on. So, scrap midweek Football League matches and insert the FA Cup.
The Football Leagues argument that it will help raise the quality of it's "product" to attract a larger worlwide audience is nonsense. How can playing Football League matches solely at weekends, when the Premier League will be being shown on TV all over the world, attract new viewers to the lower tiers of English football?
Then there's the income that clubs will lose. Do the league expect players to take a 20% pay cut? We know they won't, so that means ticket prices have to at least stay the same despite there being 4 fewer games to go to, but prices could even rise to cover the loss of income from the missing 4 matches.
Personally, I think the football league should look to more midweek games, and even Monday, Thursday, and Friday games if they really want to boost attendances and viewing figures.
If the League were interested in what us supporters think, then they could have sent out letters or surverys to club members or season ticket holders. I love mid week games, and the most memorable games I've been to tend to have been evening games, so I'd be very disappointed if this change came about.
Quote from: westcliff white on May 21, 2016, 11:37:22 AM
I loathe the idea of premier league "B" teams, that's all about making the rich richer
:54: exactly! This has nothing to do with improving football in England. Rather just helping the big premier league teams to get richer and bigger.
Quote from: dannyboi-ffc on May 21, 2016, 07:53:09 AM
Like that Derby week idea but not every club has a Derby in our league do they?
They used to do that over Easter weekend and Boxing day didn't they?
Quote from: AnEssexFan on May 22, 2016, 02:17:05 AM
This looks like an attempt at a stitch up to me, by the Premier League and the FA.
The Premier League and the FA want to move the FA Cup to a mid week competition to free up more weekends for Premier league games to be screened on television. The FA Cup can't be played midweek if there are lots of Football League matches going on. So, scrap midweek Football League matches and insert the FA Cup.
The Football Leagues argument that it will help raise the quality of it's "product" to attract a larger worlwide audience is nonsense. How can playing Football League matches solely at weekends, when the Premier League wilbe being shown on TV all over the world, attract new viewers to the lower tiers of English football?
Then there's the income that clubs will lose. Do the league expect players to take a 20% pay cut? We know they won't, so that means ticket prices have to at least stay the same despite there being 4 fewer games to go to, but prices could even rise to cover the loss of income from the missing 4 matches.
Personally, I think the football league should look to more midweek games, and even Monday, Thursday, and Friday games if they really want to boost attendances and viewing figures.
If the League were interested in what us supporters think, then they could have sent out letters or surverys to club members or season ticket holders. I love mid week games, and the most memorable games I've been to tend to have been evening games, so I'd be very disappointed if this change came about.
Good post! I think your theory has legs and I've been thinking along those lines too.
For selfish reasons I would prefer the midweek games to stay the same. I don't want them to stop but I don't want them to increase either. They are more awkward for me to get to and too much of a rush. Wouldn't attendances also drop for family clubs because of school nights? I don't let my daughter go evening games unless it's the holidays because we get home too late.
You've hit the nail on the head by saying only playing weekends will not improve the brand of league football as it will forever live in the shadow of the prem. When the football league have a midweek schedule and you can follow all the goals on sky it's very enjoyable. It puts the other leagues in the spotlight which is surely more beneficial to them?
Well said Lighthouse.
Quote from: westcliff white on May 21, 2016, 11:37:22 AM
I loathe the idea of premier league "B" teams, that's all about making the rich richer
I'm not totally against the idea of finding someway to get younger players playing more competative football and think its something worth discussing. Be it B teams or quotas. If not an actual B team then more linkups between clubs should be possible. Higher number of loans at individual clubs, backed up by help improving the receiving clubs ground. Which could be pitch or other infrastructure such as training facilities. I think a way of spreading the money down the pyramid needs to be found.
Quote from: MJG on May 23, 2016, 08:58:05 AM
Quote from: westcliff white on May 21, 2016, 11:37:22 AM
I loathe the idea of premier league "B" teams, that's all about making the rich richer
I'm not totally against the idea of finding someway to get younger players playing more competative football and think its something worth discussing. Be it B teams or quotas. If not an actual B team then more linkups between clubs should be possible. Higher number of loans at individual clubs, backed up by help improving the receiving clubs ground. Which could be pitch or other infrastructure such as training facilities. I think a way of spreading the money down the pyramid needs to be found.
As long as the lesser clubs are the ones that gain and the super rich do not make out of any agreement then thats fine, but I fear that wont be the case
As far as I can see these proposals have come from the FL so I can't see why some are already pointing the finger at the PL ?
And as far as the FA is concerned its in their interest to have a strong FL rather than allow the PL to dominate even more and undermine the base of the football pyramid,no?
While I'm a great fan of the "if it ain't broke don't fix it" theory I'm afraid you only have to look at the way the media etc has changed the face of our sport in recent years to know we won't necessarily like what's next, so a stronger FL may be one factor to slow the inevitable?
In the unlikely event that fans will vote with their feet and wallets by rejecting the Globalization of the PL, I wonder if this idea by the FL is all about heading off the formation of PL 2 and therefore the lesser of two evils?
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on May 23, 2016, 09:58:08 AM
As far as I can see these proposals have come from the FL so I can't see why some are already pointing the finger at the PL ?
Because in the press statements following the announcement the FL said that it had been done in consultation with the PL and had their backing.
Quote from: MJG on May 23, 2016, 10:01:54 AM
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on May 23, 2016, 09:58:08 AM
As far as I can see these proposals have come from the FL so I can't see why some are already pointing the finger at the PL ?
Because in the press statements following the announcement the FL said that it had been done in consultation with the PL and had their backing.
Yes I know because I read it in the original statement from the FL.
The PL has given its support 'in principal' and the whole thing is being put forward as a 'whole game' solution to the concerns about the fixture calender and for the benefit of the collective.
But as this proposal appears to be driven at first glance by the FL do we think they are being proactive or its in fact a trojan horse delivered in a way to avert criticism of the all powerful PL who clearly have a problem with the scheduling of domestic cup games?
Either way IMO change will come and I would rather something along the lines proposed here than PL2 and what that would entail for those left out.
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on May 23, 2016, 11:18:13 AM
Quote from: MJG on May 23, 2016, 10:01:54 AM
Quote from: bill taylors apprentice on May 23, 2016, 09:58:08 AM
As far as I can see these proposals have come from the FL so I can't see why some are already pointing the finger at the PL ?
Because in the press statements following the announcement the FL said that it had been done in consultation with the PL and had their backing.
Yes I know because I read it in the original statement from the FL.
The PL has given its support 'in principal' and the whole thing is being put forward as a 'whole game' solution to the concerns about the fixture calender and for the benefit of the collective.
But as this proposal appears to be driven at first glance by the FL do we think they are being proactive or its in fact a trojan horse delivered in a way to avert criticism of the all powerful PL who clearly have a problem with the scheduling of domestic cup games?
Either way IMO change will come and I would rather something along the lines proposed here than PL2 and what that would entail for those left out.
Its simply that we are all cynical of anything the PL support. If they like it then their must be something in it for them and sod the others.
I find it funny that Scudemore is up in arms about UEFA even mentioning weekend CL game when he is the man who wanted a bloody 39th game.
As for PL 2, I think it will come within 4 years. With teams coming down with so much money they will become bigger and want a better deal for the 2nd tier league.
personally I think the changes the FL want to make are a bit too radical. The FL/PL work ok, what needs looking at and changing are mainly for me fixtures and dates. I would front load a season more leaving room later in the season for postponements and cup rearranged games.
I have already said I'd look at these silly midweek games where its 3 or 4 hours to drive to and from. I have no problem with games every day even. Play Thursday and Friday, dont see it as an issue really.
I do not think it is being driven by the FL, personally I think both the PL (being driven by the bigger clubs for b teams) and the FL are driving this together. The fear of the FA and the FL is that the FA Cup is diminishing so moving it to a mid week cup may re invigorate it, as with doing away with replays and settling on the day. That in itself is horrible for a small club that could get a replay and make some much needed extra revenue from the replay at their own ground.
The PL teams (some of them) want b teams to enhance their youngsters and of course make some more money. its a complete nonsensical joke the way it has been explained so far. Hopefully they can revise and make it a better proposition or abort it.
Less games = more money, I just don't see how that works.
Quote from: westcliff white on May 23, 2016, 11:26:49 AM
I do not think it is being driven by the FL, personally I think both the PL (being driven by the bigger clubs for b teams) and the FL are driving this together. The fear of the FA and the FL is that the FA Cup is diminishing so moving it to a mid week cup may re invigorate it, as with doing away with replays and settling on the day. That in itself is horrible for a small club that could get a replay and make some much needed extra revenue from the replay at their own ground.
The PL teams (some of them) want b teams to enhance their youngsters and of course make some more money. its a complete nonsensical joke the way it has been explained so far. Hopefully they can revise and make it a better proposition or abort it.
Less games = more money, I just don't see how that works.
I don't see it as a nonsensical joke!
Most of what I see on paper makes sense, its how it evolves from a proposal and the effects it will have as it evolves into the finished article that interests me.
The preservation of promotion throughout and the tradition of replays in the FA cup is paramount to me with maybe an invigorated Johnstones paint trophy.
Something that needs attending too is the state of Reserve team/u21 football!
If clubs committed to proper regional leagues with plenty of games for unused 1st team players and youngsters then we wouldn't have the B team argument?
Quite possibly BTA, however I think some prem teams will now always want B teams, that part is the nonsensical joke to me, Rich Richer Poor Poorer.
My local team Southend would struggle with 6 league games less each season, players wouldn't take a pay cut.
It needs explaining fully so everyone can see whats what, but at the end of the day money talks and that is what will drive the game forward on this
Quote from: Rhys Lightning 63 on May 19, 2016, 06:32:37 PM
We'll be back in the Premier League before this all kicks in though, so don't worry about it
That's the spirit Rhys!
COYW!
Quote from: westcliff white on May 23, 2016, 01:07:32 PM
Quite possibly BTA, however I think some prem teams will now always want B teams, that part is the nonsensical joke to me, Rich Richer Poor Poorer.
My local team Southend would struggle with 6 league games less each season, players wouldn't take a pay cut.
It needs explaining fully so everyone can see whats what, but at the end of the day money talks and that is what will drive the game forward on this
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36358190 regarding Southend
Quote from: MJG on May 23, 2016, 01:54:59 PM
Quote from: westcliff white on May 23, 2016, 01:07:32 PM
Quite possibly BTA, however I think some prem teams will now always want B teams, that part is the nonsensical joke to me, Rich Richer Poor Poorer.
My local team Southend would struggle with 6 league games less each season, players wouldn't take a pay cut.
It needs explaining fully so everyone can see whats what, but at the end of the day money talks and that is what will drive the game forward on this
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36358190 regarding Southend
Indeed, a symptom of lower league clubs over stretching and not being able to meet their commitments, a lot of clubs have the same issue in the lower leagues. One of the reasons I cannot see why less games makes it more profitable for these clubs.
Cracking little club Southend, go there if FFC are away and I want to watch a game.
The "B" team system works very well here in Spain. Obviously there can´t be a club with 2 teams in the same division. If a "B" team wins their league they don´t gain promotion if their "A" team is in the league above. & they can´t be drawn against eachother in Cup matches.
This system gives the reserves & youngsters a regular season playing in proper stadiums in front of larger crowds.
This would increase club revenue as there would be a home game every week.
AGree Grandad it would do all of that, but if that is Man U, Man C, Liverpool, Chelsea, Arsenal its making the rich richer surely that makes it even harder for other clubs to do a Leicester?
I would prefer the Football League and the Premier League to bring back shared gate receipts in all English football competition if they really want to improve the professional game for everyone concerned. Reduced league numbers only matter to bigger Premier League clubs who already have large stadia, big fan bases, and rich owners, so much so success on the field is a matter of obtaining even more revenue from more coverage in the media etc. Under the proposed changes are we going to end up with a League Two North and League Two South and, if so, what happens to the Conference and all below? I think there is a lot of muddled thinking going on because money is more important than the game itself
Quote from: grandad on May 23, 2016, 04:33:11 PM
The "B" team system works very well here in Spain. Obviously there can´t be a club with 2 teams in the same division. If a "B" team wins their league they don´t gain promotion if their "A" team is in the league above. & they can´t be drawn against eachother in Cup matches.
This system gives the reserves & youngsters a regular season playing in proper stadiums in front of larger crowds.
This would increase club revenue as there would be a home game every week.
those Reserves and youngsters could get playing time if they went to a club that wanted them. Instead they are just being horded incase they are needed
