Fulham are planning to review their player recruitment process ? including the position of controversial data analyst Craig Kline ? following a series of behind-the-scenes disagreements.
West London Sport revealed last week that head coach Slavisa Jokanovic is at odds with the Fulham hierarchy over the club?s transfer policy.
Jokanovic confirmed those tensions at the weekend when he spoke of his frustration at missing out on a number of his suggested signings because Kline was unconvinced they would be good acquisitions.
American Kline is a friend of the son of club owner Shahid Khan, Tony, who employs him at his data analytics company TruMedia Networks as well as for Fulham.
Kline has had disagreements with a number of Fulham members of staff, who describe him as ?difficult? to work with.
He is part of a committee that assess transfer targets, along with Jokanovic and chief football officer Mike Rigg.
The players Jokanovic has missed out on include Almen Abdi, who he worked with at Watford.
Abdi joined Sheffield Wednesday, while Real Madrid midfielder Omar Mascarell, who also wanted by Jokanovic, signed for Eintracht Frankfurt.
Hopefully reviewing his position means sacking the pri#k!!
This is the bit where we all remember that we have been here before. It is time travel back to the point where Kline was leaving after rows with staff. Last season some time. Then it all begins again and we are just in groundhog season.
Quote from: FFCFOREVER on August 24, 2016, 01:34:42 PM
Hopefully reviewing his position means sacking the pri#k!!
He initially left end of Jan / early Feb and then came back around end of May.
If as SJ sayts he has no say in the singings then did Kline's stats pick the players we have signed this summer? if so not bad shouts so far. I am hoping it was SJ that chose them, but guess the reality is it was a bit of both (as in some SJ's and some Klines)
Quote from: westcliff white on August 24, 2016, 01:40:06 PM
Quote from: FFCFOREVER on August 24, 2016, 01:34:42 PM
Hopefully reviewing his position means sacking the pri#k!!
He initially left end of Jan / early Feb and then came back around end of May.
If as SJ sayts he has no say in the singings then did Kline's stats pick the players we have signed this summer? if so not bad shouts so far. I am hoping it was SJ that chose them, but guess the reality is it was a bit of both (as in some SJ's and some Klines)
I don't think SJ said he had no say, rather that Kline seemed to have some kind of veto.
Also there are posts on this forum going back to at least Spring 2015 and to the video with Rigg, Symons and Mckingtosh about Tony Khan and the use of analytics for recruitment. If our current round of recruitment is better than under Magath or Symons then I would put it down to the influence of Jokanovic, not the sudden improvement in analytics, particularly with the rejection of the various decent targets Jokanovic had wanted.
Am I wrong in thinking Kline also works with the Jags?
If he was a complete waste of space wouldn't he have been found out by now?
A good percentage of last season's buys haven't worked out. Was he involved in those?
As always we don't know all the ins and outs so as always it's just supporter frustration and speculation.
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I don't have a problem with sophisticated use of stats and am all for trying to get any advantage over the opposition however slight. It is the individual I have a problem with. There have simply been too many in the FFC hierarchy who have hinted that they find him to be a difficult person to work with. Answer is sack Kline and replace him with someone equally competent but who is a team player.
I would say it's 50/50
Quote from: VicHalomsLovechild on August 24, 2016, 03:08:08 PM
Am I wrong in thinking Kline also works with the Jags?
If he was a complete waste of space wouldn't he have been found out by now?
A good percentage of last season's buys haven't worked out. Was he involved in those?
As always we don't know all the ins and outs so as always it's just supporter frustration and speculation.
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The issue is not that statistics/analytics are not useful or that Kline is useless. He may be very good at producing results for American football or baseball. Rather the issues are that maybe the techniques are not yet sophisticated enough for football or that Kline is being over-confident and assertive in applying his methods.
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on August 24, 2016, 03:31:54 PM
Quote from: VicHalomsLovechild on August 24, 2016, 03:08:08 PM
Am I wrong in thinking Kline also works with the Jags?
If he was a complete waste of space wouldn't he have been found out by now?
A good percentage of last season's buys haven't worked out. Was he involved in those?
As always we don't know all the ins and outs so as always it's just supporter frustration and speculation.
Sent from my GT-N7100 using Tapatalk
The issue is not that statistics/analytics are not useful or that Kline is useless. He may be very good at producing results for American football or baseball. Rather the issues are that maybe the techniques are not yet sophisticated enough for football or that Kline is being over-confident and assertive in applying his methods.
This sounds most plausible to me. Think that no matter how good Kline is, it would be far better for the club to have an analytics man who doesn't have a personal relationship with the owner's son. Too many negatives with nepotism.
So do we all go back to hating Rigg, or Ali Mac once the latest incarnation of Voldermort has been vanquished?
Is there a poll anywhere to help us decide?
But what evidence are you basing that on? Which players in the last couple oof years has Kline had an influence in buying? We can't make a proper assessment on whether he's good for the Club without some proper detail. Managers have always complained that their chairmen won't splash the cash. Nothing new there. Its just someone else to point the finger at.
I'm not defending the guy just pointing out its all speculation as to whether his system works in the long term for the benifit of all of us.
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Quote from: VicHalomsLovechild on August 24, 2016, 03:42:44 PM
But what evidence are you basing that on? Which players in the last couple oof years has Kline had an influence in buying? We can't make a proper assessment on whether he's good for the Club without some proper detail. Managers have always complained that their chairmen won't splash the cash. Nothing new there. Its just someone else to point the finger at.
I'm not defending the guy just pointing out its all speculation as to whether his system works in the long term for the benifit of all of us.
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We don't know what players purchases Kline has influenced this season or before.
Some on here have been saying this summer's crop are great and are giving Kline credit for that. What hard evidence do they have to say that?
Add to that that it seems that Kline and analytics have been used for some time and the record does not seem quite as good.
And for a bit of speculation, who sanctioned the Mitroglu deal?
Analytics have been and will continue to be a useful tool but they will have to be applied with wisdom, not blind faith.
So, can anyone tell me who is responsible for collecting and analysing the stats on Kilne, they may well show that he should not be here, especially if disruptive influence is a major factor.
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on August 24, 2016, 02:38:39 PM
Quote from: westcliff white on August 24, 2016, 01:40:06 PM
Quote from: FFCFOREVER on August 24, 2016, 01:34:42 PM
Hopefully reviewing his position means sacking the pri#k!!
He initially left end of Jan / early Feb and then came back around end of May.
If as SJ sayts he has no say in the singings then did Kline's stats pick the players we have signed this summer? if so not bad shouts so far. I am hoping it was SJ that chose them, but guess the reality is it was a bit of both (as in some SJ's and some Klines)
I don't think SJ said he had no say, rather that Kline seemed to have some kind of veto.
Also there are posts on this forum going back to at least Spring 2015 and to the video with Rigg, Symons and Mckingtosh about Tony Khan and the use of analytics for recruitment. If our current round of recruitment is better than under Magath or Symons then I would put it down to the influence of Jokanovic, not the sudden improvement in analytics, particularly with the rejection of the various decent targets Jokanovic had wanted.
And that is hi lighting one of my points if he vetoes those that don't add up stats wise and recommends / agrees those that do then so far it's been quite successful this summer.
I want them to back SJ I also think he should have the call on who we sign as he is the man I charge of the players.
How would you possibly quantify the worth of a player like Dickson Etuhu using these sorts of stats? If you're contributing 20 assists and hitting the back of the net 30 times a season it's pretty obvious that player will be a good signing, but I don't think it's possible to account, statistically, for what a lot of players do in the game of football..
This isn't NFL of MLB either, stats aren't as big a deal and the play is much more fluid, much less stats orientated. Where are these stats even coming from? What sort of depth do they go into? I mean, are players in the Danish or Serbian leagues wearing those bib things they do in training during matches?? Is someone actually tallying how many 15 yd passes were made and the percentage of them which were successful?
I just cannot see how this approach can be applied to football, and I'm a stats obsessed software engineer who is currently in the process of undergoing ADHD diagnostics and is possibly even somewhere along the autism spectrum and, to someone like me, it seems ridiculous.
Ive just read on West London Sport that FFC have denied any changes to Klines position.Im not sure what they are basing that on though as the report just quotes what Joka said after the Cardiff game.
Why on earth do some people believe as Gospel what is written in a paper, especially a local rag. Wait till statements are published on the Offal. This is why we have discord among us. A recording of a TV or radio interview is fair enough but an assumption from a journo is another thing.
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on August 24, 2016, 02:38:39 PM
Quote from: westcliff white on August 24, 2016, 01:40:06 PM
Quote from: FFCFOREVER on August 24, 2016, 01:34:42 PM
Hopefully reviewing his position means sacking the pri#k!!
He initially left end of Jan / early Feb and then came back around end of May.
If as SJ sayts he has no say in the singings then did Kline's stats pick the players we have signed this summer? if so not bad shouts so far. I am hoping it was SJ that chose them, but guess the reality is it was a bit of both (as in some SJ's and some Klines)
I don't think SJ said he had no say, rather that Kline seemed to have some kind of veto.
Also there are posts on this forum going back to at least Spring 2015 and to the video with Rigg, Symons and Mckingtosh about Tony Khan and the use of analytics for recruitment. If our current round of recruitment is better than under Magath or Symons then I would put it down to the influence of Jokanovic, not the sudden improvement in analytics, particularly with the rejection of the various decent targets Jokanovic had wanted.
Very good point !
Quote from: grandad on August 24, 2016, 05:03:02 PM
Why on earth do some people believe as Gospel what is written in a paper, especially a local rag. Wait till statements are published on the Offal. This is why we have discord among us. A recording of a TV or radio interview is fair enough but an assumption from a journo is another thing.
You may be right about the local paper but wait for official statements !!!
When was the last time you read a proclamation from on high of any importance about whats going on at our club and found it more than just management speak or PR mumbo jumbo ?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/08/24/why-data-analyst-craig-kline-will-have-final-say-at-fulham-and-n/ (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/08/24/why-data-analyst-craig-kline-will-have-final-say-at-fulham-and-n/)
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 24, 2016, 06:27:21 PM
The best way to review Klines position is from the top of Beachy Head.
COMPUTER SAYS NO
So he gets the sack....and low and behold he's back for the winter transfer merry go round
