This negativity will cost us dear ...
This board lit up as folks returned from the boor fest at Villa. Everything from poor goalkeeping to manager tactics and lack of a cutting edge was aired and rightly so.
It seems our manager is reading too much about the 'Pep' influence where creative football starts with the goalkeeper effectively playing as part of the back four (or five).
Even England's number one 'keeper was deemed not sufficiently talented to perform such a role so what chance Button?
To my eyes it was the negativity of the whole performance that was - and will - contribute to our inevitable mid to lower table end of season position.
Round and round in circles spun Parker and McDonald, tip tapping the ball a matter of yards either way – but rarely forward. The forwards look impotent but they rarely get the ball played into channels or to feet so it's perhaps unfair to judge them on this performance.
Sigurdsson and Madl at the back look well short of the finished article. Both were found wanting in ball skills when under pressure and Madl in particular threatened to play Button into trouble on more than one occasion. Worryingly they won very little in the air either.
My conclusion is the manager (or whoever) has purchased poorly. In many respects this squad is no better than last year – the sort of money made available has at best purchased journeymen rather than those with flair or a bit of distinction.
There are players who were costly we have really yet to see – what is the point in that?
But to me there is a real need to turn the tactics on their head – be direct for one, stop this inclusive 'keeper in the back four nonsense and make better use of the quad if they are fit and able.
Villa were no great shakes yesterday and at half time it looked increasingly that a goal would result from a major error. So it proved and we resorted to hoof ball when Smith came on.
In truth, had we bothered to attack them, Villa were there for the taking.
Think you got it about Spot On.. :54:
Hits the nail on the head for me. Spot on, good post.
Not sure I go along with everything. But I do question why, whatever the pros and cons of the squad. We don't seem to play to its strengths. The slow build up takes away from the pace we have. The playing from the back has clearly confused the players because it is so over done to invite mistakes.
You are right here, masses of passing does not create goals. We need to be more direct.
Here is hoping for more positivity.
COYW
The tactics and game management seem to be the key failings in one camp and yet in another SJ still needs time, the squad needs to gell and the players were not his choices. SJ certainly is the new 'marmite character'.
The mid term report is looking along the lines of consistently inconsistent or simply not good enough. Neither is going to get us a top half finish.
How much more time should we give SJ then ?
Another season of mediocrity, ridiculous tactics and unmotivating attitude
More posts saying we need time to gel
Other clubs just move on - look at Villa and Cardiff - already reaping a "new managers bounce" - we never had that last year -
what on earth is so special about SJ ? - nothing at all to me
False. Squad much better than last year in every area except Attack.
You say were better in these positions Jols,but I'm beginning to worry about defense again,only 7 have conceded more than us.
Averaging 2 a Game since Bristol match.
Quote from: Statto on October 23, 2016, 11:05:25 AM
Quote from: @jolslover on October 23, 2016, 10:44:11 AM
False. Squad much better than last year in every area except Attack.
Then why are our best central midfield options are still Cairney and Parker?
Don't agree that any of the following are "much" better than their alternative:
Button (vs Bettinelli)
Sigurdsson (Madl)
McDonald (Tunnicliffe)
Odoi (Fredericks)
Malone (Sessegnon/Ream)
So sorry but in those 7 of 11 positions we are substantially the same as last season.
We've improved at CB and on the flanks but up front we are much, much worse for losing McCormack and Dembele.
So as I've said all along, I don't see any massive improvement overall.
Poor window and a missed opportunity. Kline/Khan out.
I think Button is better than Betts
Madl was signed on a permanent deal this year
Hard to compare, Mcdonald is better technichally but Tunni has more energy. I would play Johansen and Parker as DMs
Odoi is better than Fredericks. Fredericks only attribute is pace, Hes quick but not much else.
Malone is a much better fullback than Tim Ream. Sessegnon didnt play last year.
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on October 23, 2016, 11:11:23 AM
You say were better in these positions Jols,but I'm beginning to worry about defense again,only 7 have conceded more than us.
Averaging 2 a Game since Bristol match.
We have missed Kalas very much.
1 win in 10 now. Quite some way to undo the good start
I'm quite miffed, I feel the team is quite good but have no confidence in us to win. We need to stop playing from the back. It is costing us goals in pretty much every match and giving our opponents gifts to win matches they don't 'deserve'. If we were scoring 2 or more a game may be worth it but at the moment it is costing us so dear.
I do think the squad has improved actually, but we were never going to replace Macca and Moussa in one window. So in essence we have strengthened in some areas whilst weakening others.
Regarding Villa, you are right tho. Distinctly average and there for the taking. We need to be brave. we need to go for the win.
Ultimately, we need quicker ball forward. Tunny has to play imo. Been saying it for weeks now. He changes the dynamic drastically.
SJ needs to be brave and go for wins.
You can't win if you don't score.
You can't score if you don't shoot.
You can't shoot if you don't get the ball forward or even out of your own half.
COYW!
I will say to start that I haven't been or seen any games this season so don't have anything but GJ's commentary and your fine selves to base my opinion on but I will give it nevertheless.
Whilst possession is important and being able to keep the ball is great what is the point if you go nowhere with it? If we could come out of the blocks quickly, put the opponent under pressure, score a goal or two then being able to keep the ball is great. If the opposition can sit back, watch us pass the ball about and get into the game then it's completely ineffective. We look more threatening when behind so we should play that way until we are ahead. Don't settle for 0-0. Go for it then use our ability to keep the ball to play teams out of the game. I have a feeling we only seem so great at this possetion game because we play it when we are level and for a fair few teams a point isn't a bad result. they grow into the game and the longer we don't score the more they think they can nick it. if we could have slightly less possetion but in their half I think we would be making games much more unpleasant for the opposition and some of these game changing errors may not seem to be going against us.
The problem - at home - is that we move the ball so slowly - there are no fast direct through balls - the only attacking option we have is the full backs overlap - and then because Martin is so useless we are caught out of position at the back - Norwich were so fast at attacking they looked really dangerous - possession not effective at winning matches at this level
There's nothing wrong with keeping possession and denying the opposition the ball but its a means to an end (eg a positive ball played forward) not an end in itself!
We only play with urgency and passion when we are chasing the game for periods (to many to mention) and its down to the players to recognise when its OK to play safety first and when/where on the pitch to be adventurous.
Surely its part of a professionals job to make positive decisions during a game and show strength of character in doing so. While it seems Button is under orders to play the ball out from the back he should be able to recognise when he has to put his boot through the ball and clear his lines and have the character to defend his actions if needed.
This week it was Button whose error stood out but to often there is poor decision making all over the pitch, is it just me, but having put 4 past (an admittedly poor) Barnsley we learned nothing about that game.
That is, if you shoot and put the ball into the oppositions danger area enough times good things are likely to happen as with the four goals at Barnsley!
e.g. Shoot and a deflected goal counts as much as a worldy! Run at speed into the penalty area and it causes defenders problems, leads to a goal! Get the ball in the box and keepers and defenders make mistakes, goal! and then sometimes it clicks and a good goal is scored!
Its not like our players don't see enough examples of how simple it is because other teams are doing it to us every week!
I don't excuse the manager from all this but IMO we have a better team and its better organised to do a job than recent times. While I do believe he wants them to keep the ball regardless of penetrating the opposition, I don't believe he sets them up to just give it back after so many passes.
For me its the players who are over complicating their game and failing to see the easy way forward and play positively.
I don't profess to have the answer but I see from here (almost a third in to the season) that we are going to miss the boat again and never close the gap on six place. In fact if we get a couple of long term injuries in key areas it could be the same struggle as previous seasons by January.
Negative !
Yes, I'll agree with that but if the players can find some footballing brains things can turn round quickly in this league.
The ultra-slow nature of the build-up is baffling indeed when so much care was taken when recruiting to inject much-needed pace into the side. The football is,at times, sadly reminiscent of the tactics we adopted under Tigana when we first got into the Prem. Thirty-five passes to get to the halfway line while the opposition sat back, re-grouped and watched us. The difference then was that we had Saha and Boa-Morte in the side, so play in the final third was often explosive.
There rarely seems any attempt to used the pace of Kabano, Aluko etc. to get behind the defence and deliver telling balls into the box and while the defence is, perhaps, marginally better than last year, it seems so reliant on Kallas that when he is missing we seem to revert to the old habit of giving away senseless goals.
I know it's an odd division and that a good run can send you zooming up the table, but, with the best will in the world, it's difficult at present to see us as anything more than a fairly long-shot for a playoff place. Where we go from here in terms of management, I really don't know!
But for one stupid mistake we would have got a point and kept our unbeaten record.
We've had two good displays leading up to this one, where there wasn't much between the teams, only we gifted villa the points.
I love the posts since mine. Im claiming coincidence. I think the answer is a balance of attack and defence. At the moment we are failing in both but we are close to excelling in both. On a mildly serious note I and my opinion have nothing to do with the consensus. If we all think it what is the manager and for me the players thinking? go for it like the world depends, get a lead (2 goals is a lead) then pass about like Fannie's. If teams know we can pass them out of the game and we score we have won. If we don't get ahead we may as well go home.
I know there's little comparison but didn't Tigana use the play from the back system and even make
Andy Melville and Kit Symons look comfortable 'on the ball' and in the role.
I know we also had Stave Finnan, Rufus, Goma and Edwin VDS but it worked very well, obviously.
I wonder if Eric Cantona can recommend anyone else if/when necessary ?
Quote from: rogerpinvirginia on October 23, 2016, 04:13:59 PM
I know there's little comparison but didn't Tigana use the play from the back system and even make
Andy Melville and Kit Symons look comfortable 'on the ball' and in the role.
I know we also had Stave Finnan, Rufus, Goma and Edwin VDS but it worked very well, obviously.
I wonder if Eric Cantona can recommend anyone else if/when necessary ?
Indeed and it worked marvellously until we were promoted when it soon became obvious that the build-up was far too slow. I really think that keeping possession is an essential. but that we have to play at a much higher tempo for it to be really effective.
I'm not being a smart a**e but I'd be perfectly happy if it worked again until we got promoted :0)
Quote from: Tonywa on October 23, 2016, 05:04:20 PM
Quote from: rogerpinvirginia on October 23, 2016, 04:13:59 PM
I know there's little comparison but didn't Tigana use the play from the back system and even make
Andy Melville and Kit Symons look comfortable 'on the ball' and in the role.
I know we also had Stave Finnan, Rufus, Goma and Edwin VDS but it worked very well, obviously.
I wonder if Eric Cantona can recommend anyone else if/when necessary ?
Indeed and it worked marvellously until we were promoted when it soon became obvious that the build-up was far too slow. I really think that keeping possession is an essential. but that we have to play at a much higher tempo for it to be really effective.
I can't say I recall our build up being too slow under Tigana. We played a different formation but we had players capable of getting forward far more quickly and we played the ball through more incisively too.
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I can't say I recall our build up being too slow under Tigana. We played a different formation but we had players capable of getting forward far more quickly and we played the ball through more incisively too.
[/quote]
As you say, I don't think the build up was so slow.
My point was (and I probably didn't explain too well) that Tigs turned Melville and Symons into 2 'skillful' players on the ball capable of making forward passes to available midfielders and often to running forwards.
I can't recall if they had similar pressures put on them by opposition players who's managers perhaps hadn't
worked out that method of play, but they did seemed really comfortable on the ball.
With Finnan and Rufus, 2 very attacking fullbacks we did play from the back but not tippy tappy
I hope this makes sense ??
Enter Ray 'the crab' Wilkins