Gary Neville recently came out and backed a ban on mid season sackings for managers in football. I can't find a link but it's on sky sports and I'd like to get your take on it.
Holding managers to transfer windows would bring them into line with players and would also ensure a bit more thought was put into appointments.
You can see it from both angles clearly using fulham as an example. If this was in place in 2013-14, we wouldn't have had to put up with magath and meulensteen.... but we would Have had to persevere with martin Jol for the whole season. Again you could flip that and say that, the new owners surely wouldn't have had 100% confidence in Jol with how the previous season ended so a change would surely have been made then.
I'm all for new managers coming in and that bounce effect that happens but that invariably wears off to the point you're back at square one. I think a window for managerial change would end up with clear defined remits for Managers, more job security, more board level support; as the first port of call is always to sack and start again, and would also unearth managers with actual decent man management and inspirational leadership as opposed to the ones to always get hired to fix someone's mess.
Someone will reply with the fact it doesn't happen in normal business so it shouldn't happen in football, but it players are held to one club for specified windows , why not the manager and the staff. Could do wonders for team spirit. Yes it could go the other way and people wanting out but feeling trapped, but that's a mentality thing where if you're committed to a club, you may do your best and at least put yourself in the shop window
May have ventured out onto a tangent , but what's your view?! Apologies for the rambling
Personally I think you should be able to sign players as and when you want and fire a manager as and when you want.
If this was in place when we got rid of Sanchez then we would have had to wait 5 more game sbefore we got rid of him, not that may not have been that crucial but it could have been.
Having said that, as there are windows for players then it would sort of make sense to tie it in, but overall I am 100% againsty this and transfer windows.
In my view the windows for players has not really been a success , it seems always to benefit the big clubs.
See no reason to apply the same doubtful system to managers.
I believe football is over controlled in all the wrong ways already. Instead of transfer windows and superficial nonsense like FFP I'd like to see effective control of the game to encourage true professionalism, to raise standards of sportsmanship and respect, to increase financial equality within the sport, and to restore real competition at all levels. I'd like to believe if we did all that then fewer managers would depart so regularly anyway. I don't think transfer windows have done anything for the game other than to give the media extra opportunity for advertising revenue.
Quote from: filham on March 21, 2017, 09:14:05 AM
In my view the windows for players has not really been a success , it seems always to benefit the big clubs.
See no reason to apply the same doubtful system to managers.
+1
I can't see how you could stop it happening. All you are doing is allowing clubs to appoint people secretly! Employment law is one of the reasons players contracts all run to the end of June and why young players are not allowed to be tied in to long contracts. Managers would still be brought in and only given the job officially at the end of the season. I would get rid of the loan system completely. That would stop the top clubs stockpiling players and allow a lot mor talent to be on display around the country
They stop players moving, although I actually think it oculd be argued as restraint of trade. Imagine if your employer said you can only leave our comoany in Jauary or August.
It is all quite strange
That sounds like Neville trying to construct a narrative that he was sacked too soon at Valencia (P16 W3 D5 L8 in La Liga).
Like others I believe the transfer window is unhelpful. Enforcing continued employment of poor or out-of-their depth performers cannot be construed as a positive.
The idea that managers are hard done by is something I struggle with. The merry go round has existed for years and yet each managerial vacancy seems to attract applicants. Sackings mean that at any one point in time there are 92 clubs paying a lot more than 92 people for the role of manager. Plenty of managers receive compensation for being sacked that substantially increases the amount per month they were paid for the months they actually worked. This all looks like a good thing for managers and "pity us" or "it's not fair" seems to me a classic piece of misdirection.
Quote from: westcliff white on March 21, 2017, 10:17:05 AM
They stop players moving, although I actually think it oculd be argued as restraint of trade. Imagine if your employer said you can only leave our comoany in Jauary or August.
It is all quite strange
But then i cant just up sticks and go to another company. I have to give 8 weeks notice in my job.
Personally dont have an issue with the idea of the windows. Although I would change how they work and the time they are open. Especially January one. I would try to bring back the loan window but FIFA/UEFA are dead against it.
Quote from: MJG on March 21, 2017, 05:06:16 PM
Quote from: westcliff white on March 21, 2017, 10:17:05 AM
They stop players moving, although I actually think it oculd be argued as restraint of trade. Imagine if your employer said you can only leave our comoany in Jauary or August.
It is all quite strange
But then i cant just up sticks and go to another company. I have to give 8 weeks notice in my job.
Personally dont have an issue with the idea of the windows. Although I would change how they work and the time they are open. Especially January one. I would try to bring back the loan window but FIFA/UEFA are dead against it.
Then if a player wishes to accept a move to another club, the selling club should ensure they have a notice period In The contract. No one forces the club to accept the bid. Should he the same for every employee and employer.
Quote from: westcliff white on March 21, 2017, 05:28:49 PM
Quote from: MJG on March 21, 2017, 05:06:16 PM
Quote from: westcliff white on March 21, 2017, 10:17:05 AM
They stop players moving, although I actually think it oculd be argued as restraint of trade. Imagine if your employer said you can only leave our comoany in Jauary or August.
It is all quite strange
But then i cant just up sticks and go to another company. I have to give 8 weeks notice in my job.
Personally dont have an issue with the idea of the windows. Although I would change how they work and the time they are open. Especially January one. I would try to bring back the loan window but FIFA/UEFA are dead against it.
Then if a player wishes to accept a move to another club, the selling club should ensure they have a notice period In The contract. No one forces the club to accept the bid. Should he the same for every employee and employer.
I understand what you are saying - but we've just had an example of how restrictions can lead to highly unsatisfactory outcomes - the Chris Martin saga...
Despite employment law, the reality of any work situation is that if an employee announces their wish to leave and to go and work for a competitor then they usually are placed on 'gardening leave' and stop working immediately, and moves to their new employer after the appropriate notice period. This protects everyone and is widely seen as fair.
Now - let's bring this back to the ability or not to change managers as and when owners see fit. Think now not about Chris Martin, but instead about Jokanovic - imagine if it was him that Derby wanted - but couldn't have got rid of McLaren until weeks later - think about the impact on both clubs, and also the players in both teams - it would be chaos, carnage and catastrophe.
As unworkable as a train station with the tracks removed...
Quote from: glenhodgso on March 21, 2017, 05:43:01 PM
Quote from: westcliff white on March 21, 2017, 05:28:49 PM
Quote from: MJG on March 21, 2017, 05:06:16 PM
Quote from: westcliff white on March 21, 2017, 10:17:05 AM
They stop players moving, although I actually think it oculd be argued as restraint of trade. Imagine if your employer said you can only leave our comoany in Jauary or August.
It is all quite strange
But then i cant just up sticks and go to another company. I have to give 8 weeks notice in my job.
Personally dont have an issue with the idea of the windows. Although I would change how they work and the time they are open. Especially January one. I would try to bring back the loan window but FIFA/UEFA are dead against it.
Then if a player wishes to accept a move to another club, the selling club should ensure they have a notice period In The contract. No one forces the club to accept the bid. Should he the same for every employee and employer.
I understand what you are saying - but we've just had an example of how restrictions can lead to highly unsatisfactory outcomes - the Chris Martin saga...
Despite employment law, the reality of any work situation is that if an employee announces their wish to leave and to go and work for a competitor then they usually are placed on 'gardening leave' and stop working immediately, and moves to their new employer after the appropriate notice period. This protects everyone and is widely seen as fair.
Now - let's bring this back to the ability or not to change managers as and when owners see fit. Think now not about Chris Martin, but instead about Jokanovic - imagine if it was him that Derby wanted - but couldn't have got rid of McLaren until weeks later - think about the impact on both clubs, and also the players in both teams - it would be chaos, carnage and catastrophe.
As unworkable as a train station with the tracks removed...
That's exactly my point, the situation becomes almost toxic, better to just let go or serve the noticeperiod.
It won't happen but it's the easiest wayfor it to be.
It's a simple game and needs simple rules
Quote from: Statto on March 21, 2017, 07:32:37 PM
Quote from: westcliff white on March 21, 2017, 09:03:49 AM
Personally I think you should be able to sign players as and when you want and fire a manager as and when you want.
+2
+1
Quote from: westcliff white on March 21, 2017, 05:28:49 PM
Quote from: MJG on March 21, 2017, 05:06:16 PM
Quote from: westcliff white on March 21, 2017, 10:17:05 AM
They stop players moving, although I actually think it oculd be argued as restraint of trade. Imagine if your employer said you can only leave our comoany in Jauary or August.
It is all quite strange
But then i cant just up sticks and go to another company. I have to give 8 weeks notice in my job.
Personally dont have an issue with the idea of the windows. Although I would change how they work and the time they are open. Especially January one. I would try to bring back the loan window but FIFA/UEFA are dead against it.
Then if a player wishes to accept a move to another club, the selling club should ensure they have a notice period In The contract. No one forces the club to accept the bid. Should he the same for every employee and employer.
And it is as simple as you say, Sir.
Contracts are signed by both sides and no one forces you to enter into an unfair commitment unless you really have no choice in the matter and by that I mean you have no other viable opportunity or option. There should be no restraints on trade in any business environment (of which professional football is one) other than essentially preventing illegal or unfair practices to exist. Football does little to prevent illegal or unfair practices to exist, as we know from the FIFA scandals etc., but spends a lot of time playing silly games that make a mockery of proper competition.
I reckon clubs would try and find a loophole in it. For example, Jokanovic is classed as 'Head coach' by the club, so their excuse would be, well he's not actually a manager.
Quote from: AlexW132 on March 22, 2017, 12:24:10 PM
I reckon clubs would try and find a loophole in it. For example, Jokanovic is classed as 'Head coach' by the club, so their excuse would be, well he's not actually a manager.
i think the OP is referring to any role but particually the man picking the team
I think we would like to see less of a turnover in managers and more thought put into their appointment but I don't think a simple transfer window for managers would work. Managers are the focus of the club and things can go horribly wrong. For the sake of the supporters, clubs must be allowed to change managers. It is not like a player where the club has a squad that they can fall back on.
The positive of a transfer window is that smaller clubs know that outside it their players cannot be poached. Posters think it bad enough with the speculation about Sessegnon and Cairney now but if a bid could come in and unsettle the play any day of the year then it is very stressful for the player, the club and the supporters.
That said the transfer windows could be improved. For example, maybe the summer window for PL clubs should finish pre-season and those for other leagues could follow at one week intervals so that they could replenish where they have lost players. And maybe the January window should only be for loans until the end of the season with loans having no recall.
I don't accept arguments about restraint of trade or freedom of movement. What about honouring contracts freely entered into? Players shouldn be careful about what contracts they sign and put in a buyout clause if they think that they might want to move onwards before the end of their contract.
A transfer window also dampens down players throwing a wobbly and downing tools because they can't move until the next window. It is just like a 3-4 month notice period.
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on March 22, 2017, 03:32:15 PM
I don't accept arguments about restraint of trade or freedom of movement. What about honouring contracts freely entered into? Players shouldn be careful about what contracts they sign and put in a buyout clause if they think that they might want to move onwards before the end of their contract.
A transfer window also dampens down players throwing a wobbly and downing tools because they can't move until the next window. It is just like a 3-4 month notice period.
Mmm, how does a transfer window resolve the issue of what is in a player's contract? The answer is it doesn't. It simply creates the expectation of two periods a year when a lot of horse trading will be done which is great for the media. Football needs to toughen up what happens when contracts are flagrantly breached.
Quote from: Statto on March 22, 2017, 06:59:39 PM
agree with you toshes mate
i think we are conflating multiple different issues. transfer windows don't limit player power or prevent situation's like martin's, which actually started before the window opened and he's still not getting in the team now, two months since it closed
my understanding is the old transfer deadline around April was to stop clubs dramatically changing their teams in the late stages of a season to alter its outcome, which seems reasonable
i honeslty don't know what the current two-window system is designed to achieve, except to justify the existence of some anonymous bent slimeballs in switzerland (aka FIFA) and/or to create the media circus mentioned
We are on the same page, Statto. We both know what FIFA is good for and it isn't pleasant reading.
Quote from: toshes mate on March 22, 2017, 05:44:24 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on March 22, 2017, 03:32:15 PM
I don't accept arguments about restraint of trade or freedom of movement. What about honouring contracts freely entered into? Players shouldn be careful about what contracts they sign and put in a buyout clause if they think that they might want to move onwards before the end of their contract.
A transfer window also dampens down players throwing a wobbly and downing tools because they can't move until the next window. It is just like a 3-4 month notice period.
Mmm, how does a transfer window resolve the issue of what is in a player's contract? The answer is it doesn't. It simply creates the expectation of two periods a year when a lot of horse trading will be done which is great for the media. Football needs to toughen up what happens when contracts are flagrantly breached.
Why would you think I was linking contracts with transfer windows?
As my post clearly states I was commenting on points raised by earlier posters.
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on March 22, 2017, 03:32:15 PM
I don't accept arguments about restraint of trade or freedom of movement. What about honouring contracts freely entered into? Players shouldn be careful about what contracts they sign and put in a buyout clause if they think that they might want to move onwards before the end of their contract.
A transfer window also dampens down players throwing a wobbly and downing tools because they can't move until the next window. It is just like a 3-4 month notice period.
Thats a valid point, but on the other side clubs should then honour them too rather than accepting a bid for the player.
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on March 23, 2017, 02:02:11 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on March 22, 2017, 05:44:24 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on March 22, 2017, 03:32:15 PM
I don't accept arguments about restraint of trade or freedom of movement. What about honouring contracts freely entered into? Players shouldn be careful about what contracts they sign and put in a buyout clause if they think that they might want to move onwards before the end of their contract.
A transfer window also dampens down players throwing a wobbly and downing tools because they can't move until the next window. It is just like a 3-4 month notice period.
Mmm, how does a transfer window resolve the issue of what is in a player's contract? The answer is it doesn't. It simply creates the expectation of two periods a year when a lot of horse trading will be done which is great for the media. Football needs to toughen up what happens when contracts are flagrantly breached.
Why would you think I was linking contracts with transfer windows?
As my post clearly states I was commenting on points raised by earlier posters.
You said 'A transfer window also dampens down players throwing a wobbly and downing tools' which links the subjects together. But if that is not what you meant then so be it.
Quote from: toshes mate on March 23, 2017, 04:40:52 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on March 23, 2017, 02:02:11 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on March 22, 2017, 05:44:24 PM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on March 22, 2017, 03:32:15 PM
I don't accept arguments about restraint of trade or freedom of movement. What about honouring contracts freely entered into? Players shouldn be careful about what contracts they sign and put in a buyout clause if they think that they might want to move onwards before the end of their contract.
A transfer window also dampens down players throwing a wobbly and downing tools because they can't move until the next window. It is just like a 3-4 month notice period.
Mmm, how does a transfer window resolve the issue of what is in a player's contract? The answer is it doesn't. It simply creates the expectation of two periods a year when a lot of horse trading will be done which is great for the media. Football needs to toughen up what happens when contracts are flagrantly breached.
Why would you think I was linking contracts with transfer windows?
As my post clearly states I was commenting on points raised by earlier posters.
You said 'A transfer window also dampens down players throwing a wobbly and downing tools' which links the subjects together. But if that is not what you meant then so be it.
Tenuous as a link at best and clearly not what I was saying.
Maybe we can agree on somethings: if it is as most think the loan arrangements were set up then Martin, McClaren and Derby should have been punished for their behaviour over his possible return to Derby.
