Sick of not creating chances cos nobody is in the box. Forget blaming the recruitment, sometimes Joka needs to be more versatile. For me this season the midfield 3 have been found out a bit. Not the personel, more the system.
Agreed Danny, or maybe our players are just not as good as we think they are?
Shocking predictable uninspired performance totally found out by SW
Let's hope it's a blip
Day almost complete with Europe getting stuffed in the Solheim Cup.
What I can't get my head round as I sit in Bishops Park sick as a parrot is this...We buy I thought a Striker yet he ends up drifting wide and crossing balls in to where he should be... :doh:
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on August 19, 2017, 05:18:29 PM
What I can't get my head round as I sit in Bishops Park sick as a parrot is this...We buy I thought a Striker yet he ends up drifting wide and crossing balls in to where he should be... :doh:
Perhaps we were wrong to assume we have signed a striker.
Quote from: davew on August 19, 2017, 05:07:41 PM
Agreed Danny, or maybe our players are just not as good as we think they are?
Can't be this. Same players that got 6th last year.
RE the OP, I don't like 2 up top. We have a load of attackers who can't finish, so why put two strikers?
I think we're just not clicking but it'll come and there's plenty of time to turn it round. We'll burst Cardiff and/or Ipswich's bubble as well.
The key problem is that our powerhouse of McDonald, Johansen & Cairney are not 100% fit but are having to be pressed to play. Cisse & Norwood are fine to come off the bench but are not quite as good as the 3 amigos.
Quote from: grandad on August 19, 2017, 05:23:31 PM
The key problem is that our powerhouse of McDonald, Johansen & Cairney are not 100% fit but are having to be pressed to play. Cisse & Norwood are fine to come off the bench but are not quite as good as the 3 amigos.
Spot on analysis!!!!
2 up top is not the answer to the problem - the main issue was we didn't do our usual full pitch press when we don't have the ball and invited them into us, particularly in the second half. Aluko, Sess and Cairney were playing miles away from Fonte who was isolated up top (when he was playing up top!). Seems like we are playing a new system to accommodate a no.9 striker an it patently didnt work. Nowhere near enough movement / fluidity up top and throughout the team today. Hope we go back to what we're good at pronto.
Quote from: grandad on August 19, 2017, 05:23:31 PM
The key problem is that our powerhouse of McDonald, Johansen & Cairney are not 100% fit but are having to be pressed to play. Cisse & Norwood are fine to come off the bench but are not quite as good as the 3 amigos.
one could argue that we made too many changes from the last game. What was it 5? Odoi was moved to left back 1, kalas came in at CB 2, sess was moved to left wing 3, Cairney came in 4 kamara was dropped for Fonte 5. That's a hell of a lot of changes for one game
It was all poor, imo we passed poorly, aluko should have buried at least one of the three first half chances,there was a distinct lack of moment when our midfielders had the ball and the whole build up once we were in possession was half the pace it was last season. They were nothing special but today they were better than us.
When i was coaching we used to do a drill where everyone had to touch the ball before a shot was done, this reminded me of that, to be honest I was so bored in the first half, I spent most of my time looking around watching other supporters, found them more interesting.
Quote from: fulhamben on August 19, 2017, 05:29:54 PM
Quote from: grandad on August 19, 2017, 05:23:31 PM
The key problem is that our powerhouse of McDonald, Johansen & Cairney are not 100% fit but are having to be pressed to play. Cisse & Norwood are fine to come off the bench but are not quite as good as the 3 amigos.
one could argue that we made too many changes from the last game. What was it 5? Odoi was moved to left back 1, kalas came in at CB 2, sess was moved to left wing 3, Cairney came in 4 kamara was dropped for Fonte 5. That's a hell of a lot of changes for one game
and unnecessary!
which formation would you switch too if we go 2 up front? if it also means 2 central midfielders which one drops out?
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 19, 2017, 06:16:55 PM
Quote from: fulhamben on August 19, 2017, 05:29:54 PM
Quote from: grandad on August 19, 2017, 05:23:31 PM
The key problem is that our powerhouse of McDonald, Johansen & Cairney are not 100% fit but are having to be pressed to play. Cisse & Norwood are fine to come off the bench but are not quite as good as the 3 amigos.
one could argue that we made too many changes from the last game. What was it 5? Odoi was moved to left back 1, kalas came in at CB 2, sess was moved to left wing 3, Cairney came in 4 kamara was dropped for Fonte 5. That's a hell of a lot of changes for one game
and unnecessary!
yes I think so, maybe the team that started will end up being our best 11, but to change so much so quickly, clearly wasn't the right call. Stick or twist again in the next match, that's now the conundrum
Would it work with 3 centre backs, the 3 in the middle of StefJo, KMac, TC, two wing backs and two up front. ?
Just an option but there needs to be something different when we aren't doing well, a different tactic or something revolutionary. This team done wonderful things last year but many teams have adapted and can counter act any threats we have and stick a man on Cairney like glue.
Quote from: Newry FFC on August 19, 2017, 06:33:38 PM
Would it work with 3 centre backs, the 3 in the middle of StefJo, KMac, TC, two wing backs and two up front. ?
Just an option but there needs to be something different when we aren't doing well, a different tactic or something revolutionary. This team done wonderful things last year but many teams have adapted and can counter act any threats we have and stick a man on Cairney like glue.
I have no idea but I don't think just saying 2 up front works you have to look at the team dynamics. we have 2 strikers to play 2 up front you need 4 so you have 2 for every position.
If one gets injured, you cant move Aluko there as his finishing is iffy at best, same for Ayite etc. so its not as easy as it seems given the squad we have as it stands
Quote from: alfie on August 19, 2017, 05:52:48 PM
When i was coaching we used to do a drill where everyone had to touch the ball before a shot was done, this reminded me of that, to be honest I was so bored in the first half, I spent most of my time looking around watching other supporters, found them more interesting.
There was a chap about 4 seats along from me spending the whole time dipping a lollipop in a bag of sherbet, which I found amusing..
Quote from: westcliff white on August 19, 2017, 06:37:32 PM
Quote from: Newry FFC on August 19, 2017, 06:33:38 PM
Would it work with 3 centre backs, the 3 in the middle of StefJo, KMac, TC, two wing backs and two up front. ?
Just an option but there needs to be something different when we aren't doing well, a different tactic or something revolutionary. This team done wonderful things last year but many teams have adapted and can counter act any threats we have and stick a man on Cairney like glue.
I have no idea but I don't think just saying 2 up front works you have to look at the team dynamics. we have 2 strikers to play 2 up front you need 4 so you have 2 for every position.
If one gets injured, you cant move Aluko there as his finishing is iffy at best, same for Ayite etc. so its not as easy as it seems given the squad we have as it stands
I'd class Ayite or Piazon as one of a foursome of strikers over Aluko. See we'd need one more which doesn't seem impossible anyway
Quote from: dannyboi-ffc on August 19, 2017, 07:15:45 PM
Quote from: westcliff white on August 19, 2017, 06:37:32 PM
Quote from: Newry FFC on August 19, 2017, 06:33:38 PM
Would it work with 3 centre backs, the 3 in the middle of StefJo, KMac, TC, two wing backs and two up front. ?
Just an option but there needs to be something different when we aren't doing well, a different tactic or something revolutionary. This team done wonderful things last year but many teams have adapted and can counter act any threats we have and stick a man on Cairney like glue.
I have no idea but I don't think just saying 2 up front works you have to look at the team dynamics. we have 2 strikers to play 2 up front you need 4 so you have 2 for every position.
If one gets injured, you cant move Aluko there as his finishing is iffy at best, same for Ayite etc. so its not as easy as it seems given the squad we have as it stands
I'd class Ayite or Piazon as one of a foursome of strikers over Aluko. See we'd need one more which doesn't seem impossible anyway
the problem is there shooting, Aluko and Ayite are not the best, Piazon isn't a striker his finishing is better but he isnt overly impressive through the middle overall. For me as the squad stands at the resent we are limited to how we can set up, I have said this before minimum you need is 3 strikers so we need one more, but I don't see that happening unless we get a real bargain.
You can change the way you play in the same formation, just depend show you wish to play it. Haven't seen anything from today but for me based on the other games this season, we need to be quicker through transitions and then the game phases and get the ball in behind given the players we have. We seem to be slow, like we were at the start of last season, even though we have a different set of front players
I'd only go 2 strikers if it meant playing 532, which is probably my favourite formation in the modern game and something I have been suggesting as it allows Sess and Fredericks to go forward more
Quote from: @jolslover on August 19, 2017, 07:20:18 PM
I'd only go 2 strikers if it meant playing 532, which is probably my favourite formation in the modern game and something I have been suggesting as it allows Sess and Fredericks to go forward more
so then no Kebano, Piazon when fit, ALuko, Ojo etc I just don't see that formation happening given the wide players we have
Although I favour the theory of having two up front to a certain extent.
We have nowhere near enough of the right players at this stage to play two up front.
I think the problem is that teams know how to set up against us and we aren't making opportunities as a result, our poor finishing is key as well as we haven't scored an early goal which means the opposition has a go at us making it easier to create chances and extend the lead.
Not an easy problem to solve. Didn't think the performance was as bad as people on here are saying against a decent Wednesday. Should Sessegnon have taken one of his 2 chances at 0-0 we would have won that game and been talking about a battling performance.
It was clear that the players are feeling the pressure as they really fell apart after the goal and misplaced passes all over the shop.
Reason I've asked is because I had this line up in my head today and actually put it in that team for Wednesday thread a few days ago.
Button
Odoi Kalas Ream
Fred Sess
Johansen Kmac
Cairney
Fonte Kamara
Quote from: dannyboi-ffc on August 19, 2017, 08:00:37 PM
Reason I've asked is because I had this line up in my head today and actually put it in that team for Wednesday thread a few days ago.
Button
Odoi Kalas Ream
Fred Sess
Johansen Kmac
Cairney
Fonte Kamara
I agree it could work but we don't have the back up squad for this, Injury to CB? Striker? Ayite, Aluko and Piazon (when fit) are not the answer as they struggle to score, one is better but isn't convincing up top
DJalo to come in as cover?
Why sign Ojo
All this is based on the current squad as it stands 1t 8:17pm on the 19th Aug 2017
I like the look of the lineup but I'm with westcliff on this. We have an incredible selection of wingers now and can't see where Aluko, ayite, kebano, Ojo play in that system.
Quote from: westcliff white on August 19, 2017, 08:17:22 PM
Quote from: dannyboi-ffc on August 19, 2017, 08:00:37 PM
Reason I've asked is because I had this line up in my head today and actually put it in that team for Wednesday thread a few days ago.
Button
Odoi Kalas Ream
Fred Sess
Johansen Kmac
Cairney
Fonte Kamara
I agree it could work but we don't have the back up squad for this, Injury to CB? Striker? Ayite, Aluko and Piazon (when fit) are not the answer as they struggle to score, one is better but isn't convincing up top
DJalo to come in as cover?
Why sign Ojo
All this is based on the current squad as it stands 1t 8:17pm on the 19th Aug 2017
We have so many different types of attackers now. Wing backs, full backs who can play centre half. Piazon is an extreme to Kebano or Ayite. Aluko, Kamara with his pace and power. Fonte more technical.
Why do we need to always play 1 system and 1 system only. Imo that will only hold us back. We have been found out because it's become predictable. I reckon my line up would work at times and if we have injuries and it doesn't suit, change the system to suit what's available
Quote from: dannyboi-ffc on August 19, 2017, 08:50:33 PM
Quote from: westcliff white on August 19, 2017, 08:17:22 PM
Quote from: dannyboi-ffc on August 19, 2017, 08:00:37 PM
Reason I've asked is because I had this line up in my head today and actually put it in that team for Wednesday thread a few days ago.
Button
Odoi Kalas Ream
Fred Sess
Johansen Kmac
Cairney
Fonte Kamara
I agree it could work but we don't have the back up squad for this, Injury to CB? Striker? Ayite, Aluko and Piazon (when fit) are not the answer as they struggle to score, one is better but isn't convincing up top
DJalo to come in as cover?
Why sign Ojo
All this is based on the current squad as it stands 1t 8:17pm on the 19th Aug 2017
We have so many different types of attackers now. Wing backs, full backs who can play centre half. Piazon is an extreme to Kebano or Ayite. Aluko, Kamara with his pace and power. Fonte more technical.
Why do we need to always play 1 system and 1 system only. Imo that will only hold us back. We have been found out because it's become predictable. I reckon my line up would work at times and if we have injuries and it doesn't suit, change the system to suit what's available
its not about just playing one system, its about the squad we have and the system that dictates, to play another system you need to have players that can do that and cover, right now we don't have that
I do not disagree we need aback up plan we do be that formation change or anything else. For me you have to treat each opponent differently, the style SJ like should suit any formation, its about then how you transition and go thru the phases in that formation.
Right now, for me, our squad dictates we play wide players, otherwise we will have 5 of them on the bench restricting our options of the bench, I say that as all our cover players will literally be on the pitch due to the different formation.
We can play the same formation as today with a hold up player or speedster (seems to be the way we have gone).
The midfield just isn't firing like it was last year. Some of the passing today was very poor - particularly to Fred who hadn't got a chance of getting to them . Bannan ran the show from start to finish and we just couldn't neutralise him. He was better than our midfield 3 put together.
They will get there mojo back - and we will kick on but it may take a while.
Quote from: grandad on August 19, 2017, 05:23:31 PM
The key problem is that our powerhouse of McDonald, Johansen & Cairney are not 100% fit but are having to be pressed to play. Cisse & Norwood are fine to come off the bench but are not quite as good as the 3 amigos.
What is wrong with Johansen and McDonald? Didn't realise they were carrying injuries. Just thought their foes had dipped badly?
Yeah, its too late to make any major changes to our system. I guess Slav could go for 3-4-3 or 3-5-2 for a couple of games just to get us going again, but nothing long term.
If we were to change formation, I dont think we should unless its during a game we're losing - I still have faith in this formation, how about the good old 442? Cairney cutting in from the right wing, allowing Fredricks to overlap. Odoi at lb, Sess on the other wing. Letting Johansen/Kmac/Cisse/Norwood fight it out in midfield and having Fonte and Kamara up front. Using this would allow us 2 up front, keep the wingers, have two cms and keep the back four.
I cant see us using any tactic that doesnt allow wingers so 442 diamond, 4312, 352 wont be used, unless for a short while as mentioned
The problem with 3-5-2 is that we have a squad with a lot of wingers, so either they need to convert to wingbacks or played in a central forward role. Another issue is the fact that I dont see Fredricks being good enough as a wing back, as that role is basically a winger/full back role. Sess would probably be good at it, but not Fredricks in my mind. For me, hes very much a typical full back whos good on overlaping runs and whips the ball into the box.
Also, in a 352 th strikers are running the risk of being isolated due to the lack of immediate support. So we need skillful strikers who can pass, dribble, shoot, score and so on and I just cant see Kamara doing all that just yet.
343 is a bit more interesting, but if not done correctly it wont be good. Only issue - besides its a risky tactic - is that I cant see where Cairney would fit in, if we dont put him in one of the wing roles in forward 3. We need coverage in CM if we're playing 343.
Before we tinker with formations ad nauseum we need to know where the problem lies and I don't think it is anything to do with set up. It is to do with the players self confidence and self belief. Just what went on during pre-season?
Quote from: toshes mate on August 20, 2017, 07:26:34 AM
Before we tinker with formations ad nauseum we need to know where the problem lies and I don't think it is anything to do with set up. It is to do with the players self confidence and self belief. Just what went on during pre-season?
Thing is, Button went away. Got his confidence back and has clearly been working on it in pre season because he looks much more assured now.
But a lot of the others seem to have ignored the weaknesses of last season and now they are being exposed.
My view is that the system isn't working anymore. It was fine when the midfield were scoring for fun, now it limits us to one maybe two players in the box at one time. So when crosses come in we never have anyone in the areas to be lethal.
I'm on my own I reckon but I'd go 2 up top. Even if it meant playing two in midfield and rotating Ayite and Kamara to partner Fonte. Somethings not right and it can't just be the confidence. Teams are pressing higher than last season and we have no response so far to it.
Imo we have the ingredients but not the recipe yet.
When you watch the twenty plus move that ended up with a class goal against Bristol City you can forget formation completely. What you have are players well schooled in the art of holding the ball, moving around, waiting for a good pass to develop, or changing the point of attack if it doesn't develop. Patience, endeavour, confidence, and belief in your own ability because you have done it time and again on the training ground. Where has it gone?
