We play a passing game and that means keeping possession of the football in order to probe the opponents defense until the right moment to spring the ball forward into the space that has been freed up by runs off the ball (movement) and quick combination play. The idea that this is easy to achieve or down to talented players is ill-concieved and it takes a hell of alot of detailed planning and work on the training ground to make it work.The players are given positional and passing options depending on the situation they find themselves in and these are carefully employed by all involved.
Sharp passing and combinations create gaps in the opponents defensive shape, and if doesnt work then the idea is not simply to play and hope by kicking the ball forward but start again.. Forward and backward passes are an integral part of this game plan. Its not possession for possessions sake but ball manipulation to find space in which to attack and to get the opposition chasing us. Its no coincidence that we have scored more goals in the last 10 minutes of matches than most other teams in the division. Preston were dead on their feet in the last half hour of play and were unable to keep up their high press. Tiring out the opposition is also one of the big advantages of playing a passing game.
Its also a risky business and we do not always get it right. Jokanovics annalysis of last weeks first half against Villa was that we were not brave enough and too easily took the easy option of playing back to Buttons who then played long over the opponents defense.when we do this we almost always surrender possession.
By invitng teams on to us high up in our own half we also create space behind them for our quick counter attacking play. We have bought so many fast players in order to be able to both get in behind (due to the high press that teams try to put us under) and also to recover quickly if we do lose the ball going forward.
Playing the ball carefully out from the back is strategically important to our general play and not something we do just to keep possession. Our football is based on control and domination of the play, and is easier to achieve away fro home as home teams are not content to sit back and try to exploit our mistakes. Villa did this successfully on saturday however, but if we had got that first goal it might have been quite different game .
Most teams in the championship dont play like us ,and their game is long ball based and winning the second or loose ball. Jokanovic has been a superb coach and his achievments interms of how he has devloped our play are nigh on miraculous! for all the people complaining about lack of results ,be careful what you wish for .More physical players and a more thug like approach wont improve us and long term would be adisaster. What Slavisa is building will benfit us enormously if we were to go up this season, as althoughwe would need more quality players ,the system is already in place to play sort of football required for success in the premiership .
All true. But as in all things the familiar becomes easier to play against. Especially when we don't have the players in form or are able to cope with opposition pressing high. When we are good we are very good and can look great to watch as well as a thorn in the side of our opponents. However the tactics we use means that when players are not up to the high standard we are used to or simply injured or just having an off day. We don't have a way around this. We have the same type of players on the bench. The tactics are great but we do need to have the option to change things when they are not working.
We don't always have that or show that.
Goals change games CW, but generally opponents tend to have more shots at our goal than we do at there's. So much for possession, even Burton got round that, and they have to work on a shoestring.
So our system is not providing us then with the opportunity to have a dig at their goal, or have our players been over coached and instructed to pass so much, that when they get up the opponents end, they recycle and start again, because they have forgotten what they went up there for.
Look I know what you are saying and the Philosophy is to be admired, and if only we could succeed in the Championship playing this kind of football you and I and everyone else I would imagine would want to succeed with.
If only !!!!
But I cannot see how the Master Plan can work without the system being a bit rough around the edges. Whether you like it or not, a couple of rough diamonds added to the team will Help rather than hinder.
This Championship is no picnic.
That's every opponent will try their Guerrilla tactics, because they know we are a soft touch.
Niavity is no crime, but until we start getting streetwise and adopt a different philosophy without moving away from or ignoring our current philosophy of passing until the opponents fall asleep, we will be having the same debate in May.
Variety and balance is the spice of life, even in football, and currently we do not possess enough of either.
Which is measured in the 21 points we have lost already this season.
It was this that Jim was stressing about last Saturday - the fact we often seem on the verge of needlessly giving the ball away in a dangerous area. But, he, like the rest of us, realises that when the system works we play great football, and can create sweeping moves, cutting through the opposition, turning defence into attack and creating scoring opportunities.
Even listening to the commentary your heart can be in you mouth, as Button passes to Ream, Ream to MacD, Mac back to Ream, etc, but the players have to have the courage to play in the style that Joka wants and that has been so successful for us, and I don't think we make so many errors now - and that can give us an advantage against all the other Championship that play in a similar way to each other.
Whilst pleasing on the eye, it can be a bit frustrating. However, good footballing teams do get promoted. Last year, Newcastle, previously Bournemouth some time ago Norwich and of course Tigana's team are examples. It will take time but in the meantime, all of you lucky season ticket holders get to see some great football. A winning team in the championship or a relegation battle (along with 12 others seeking 40 points) in the premier??
Tc is defintely key to this system,and its not because he is the creative spark ( although he undoubtedlyis) ,rather because he has a solution to opponents press and always has time to resolve pressure even from more than one player. This outball to Tc relieves the pressue on all his fellow players.
The reference above to Tigana is apposite. One of the things that he stressed was that players should not be afraid to make mistakes. It's hard for supporters to accept that.
Have you seen the tackling rate? We've got the 21st best tackle success rate in the league... there's your problem
Quote from: Southcoastffc on October 23, 2017, 07:30:15 PM
The reference above to Tigana is apposite. One of the things that he stressed was that players should not be afraid to make mistakes. It's hard for supporters to accept that.
Remember the philosophy well. If a player trys something and it doesn't come off don't have a go at them. Encourage them to keep trying.also if it's a mistake then just get on with game, every player makes them. Win as a team lose as a team.
Quote from: JoelH5 on October 23, 2017, 07:34:42 PM
Have you seen the tackling rate? We've got the 21st best tackle success rate in the league... there's your problem
yet a team above us has same score so what's their problem?
Its difficult to tackle the opposition when YOU have possession of the ball. Could be something to do with tackle stats!
I think people can forgive mistakes just not the same ones over and over. Teams know that you put pressure on us now and we will shoot ourselves in the foot. We are our own worst enemy.
Definiton of insanity is doing the same thing over and over then expecting different results.
Quote from: colinwhite on October 23, 2017, 08:17:00 PM
Its difficult to tackle the opposition when YOU have possession of the ball. Could be something to do with tackle stats!
If it was number of tackles yes but unfortunately it's % of tackles made which are successful.
Often the same people (im not saying you ) complaing about our lack of physicality and tackling abillity are the same ones moaning about poor substituions like bringing on Cisse.........
It would be good to develop this debate if the people that often talked about us being tougher and bringing in players that can get stuck in etc, named some examples.
I don't think we did anything wrong, I tend to think the player just used us to get a better deal but had we got Dunk from Brighton, I do think he would have improved us. I don't think there is any doubt about that.
Quote from: Southcoastffc on October 23, 2017, 07:30:15 PM
The reference above to Tigana is apposite. One of the things that he stressed was that players should not be afraid to make mistakes. It's hard for supporters to accept that.
Playing without fear, is half the battle.
Just listened to GJ and his comments about opponents playing a high pressing game but us coming on strong in the second half. Well in my opinion is that most clubs have found a high pressing game works when playing against us, but this is a very tiring style as your forward players are chasing us down. Come the second half they are all a bit tired and allows us to play our normal game.
This was certainly the case against PNE when a lot of the players went down with cramp, their No 11 could hardly walk at the end.
This does mean that we need to be more clinical with our chances and also turn the possession into chances.
To be more clinical with our chances, we have to have the players to be clinical, and we haven't got them.
To keep clean sheets, we have to have the players to keep clean sheets, and we have not got them either.
It really is a simple game, made to sound complicated by self proclaimed expert pundits, and over coaching by coaches who turn players into robots who cannot think for themselves.
To be successful at the game we are trying to play demands players of real quality, there is no place for those without a good first touch or with poor ball control. Players of that quality will be looking for clubs above Championship level and therefore Championship managers tend to concentrate more on players with pace and physical strength.
Also it was established a long time ago that more goals are scored following moves with long balls and two or three quick passes than from complicated short passing moves.
Our game has fallen apart this season without the quality of Cairney and Aluko in our attack.
lawrie Sanchez ?
Quote from: filham on October 24, 2017, 02:50:19 PM
To be successful at the game we are trying to play demands players of real quality, there is no place for those without a good first touch or with poor ball control. Players of that quality will be looking for clubs above Championship level and therefore Championship managers tend to concentrate more on players with pace and physical strength.
Also it was established a long time ago that more goals are scored following moves with long balls and two or three quick passes than from complicated short passing moves.
Our game has fallen apart this season without the quality of Cairney and Aluko in our attack.
A Charlie Hughes disciple.
Sod all that fancy passing and having skill get the ball long and play percentage stuff.
EDIT: Just to add the top 4 teams for the average number of passes all ended up in the playoffs and yes we were one of them.
Quote from: colinwhite on October 23, 2017, 11:49:28 AM
We play a passing game
I have snipped the rest of an excellent analysis of what our game plan is. Thank you for that, colinwhite.
Of especial significance is the OP concept of 'starting again' the whole reason for retaining possession since it is also integral to moving your opponent around to create space. It is hard work to achieve. It does take time and effort and lots of practice on the training ground. It does reward patience and perseverance and it does yield results from players who are not necessarily 'the best money can buy'. It favours players like Scott Malone to use skills they always knew they had but probably never had much of a chance to display them in teams that are set up to play a more normal Championship game. It favour coaches who like like to see football played that is eye catching, effective, crowd pleasing, and, dare I say it, entertaining. We can achieve the levels of performance we witnessed last season provided we stick with the plan and bravely work at it until it comes right again. All players make mistakes, even the very best, and they all have nightmares too.
I hope we stick with the plan and get it working to perfection once again, because it is such a entertaining watch, all the more so when it reaches peak effectiveness. The way to beat a bully is to outmanoeuvre them.
Quote from: MJG on October 25, 2017, 07:30:57 AM
Quote from: filham on October 24, 2017, 02:50:19 PM
To be successful at the game we are trying to play demands players of real quality, there is no place for those without a good first touch or with poor ball control. Players of that quality will be looking for clubs above Championship level and therefore Championship managers tend to concentrate more on players with pace and physical strength.
Also it was established a long time ago that more goals are scored following moves with long balls and two or three quick passes than from complicated short passing moves.
Our game has fallen apart this season without the quality of Cairney and Aluko in our attack.
A Charlie Hughes disciple.
Sod all that fancy passing and having skill get the ball long and play percentage stuff.
EDIT: Just to add the top 4 teams for the average number of passes all ended up in the playoffs and yes we were one of them.
A few weeks ago Cardiff were statistically the worst passers in the Championship and at the time were top of the table.
Quote from: filham on October 25, 2017, 10:25:27 AM
Quote from: MJG on October 25, 2017, 07:30:57 AM
Quote from: filham on October 24, 2017, 02:50:19 PM
To be successful at the game we are trying to play demands players of real quality, there is no place for those without a good first touch or with poor ball control. Players of that quality will be looking for clubs above Championship level and therefore Championship managers tend to concentrate more on players with pace and physical strength.
Also it was established a long time ago that more goals are scored following moves with long balls and two or three quick passes than from complicated short passing moves.
Our game has fallen apart this season without the quality of Cairney and Aluko in our attack.
A Charlie Hughes disciple.
Sod all that fancy passing and having skill get the ball long and play percentage stuff.
EDIT: Just to add the top 4 teams for the average number of passes all ended up in the playoffs and yes we were one of them.
A few weeks ago Cardiff were statistically the worst passers in the Championship and at the time were top of the table.
Yes they were and Leicester won the PL.
But on balance the majority of the time the teams that have the ball more win more games.
Jokes apart sanchez got his Fulham side to play the worst footboll I can remember at the club. Jokanovik is up there with Tigana in my view in terms of getting his side to play effective ,attractive footboll.
I ronicly enough the six home points we dropped in the last minutes of games could be put down to us trying to attack rather retaining possession for its own sake in order to see out the game.
Just reading Big Sam ... Allardyce's autobiography ... interesting comments on playing out from the back ...
Basically it is fine if you are a quality/confident side ... else often a disaster !!
Last season we were a lot more confident ... this season, not so good ...
Good debate.
Those of you who are sad enough to remember my posts, will know that I am a big fan of our style. I do think we will come good eventually. Just hope we are in the mix come January as I believe we will strengthen significantly if we are.
The whole playing from the back debate has been explained very well by a few posters on this thread. Moving opposition, creating space etc.
The Allardyce quote was interesting as when I watch England (which I do less and less) they try and play a building from the back approach. However, they seem to do it as if they are coached that it is what good teams do. There doesn't seem to be any strategy to it. I'd go as far as to say we are awful at it at International level. To the point where it seems pointless. Our passes at the back seem to lead to the inevitable hoof from fullback or deep-lying midfielder....and we lose the ball...again...and again. We get away with it in qualifying and as soon as we meet a team that is of any quality, our awfulness is horribly exposed.
You need the right coaches, at least 3 or 4 key players and plenty of time.
The point about Cardiff is a good one. I have no problem with teams like Cardiff. They play to their strengths. Ultimately, they will get found out and then be fairly easy to combat.
I actually think when it gets to the finals, England should play to our strengths. Not this mash-mash of nonsense. I think England should play at 100 miles an hour and play like a premiership side, not give anyone any time on the ball.
Will it win a cup? Probably not. But it will give us half a chance and I'm sure we will beat teams like Iceland.
Coaches in the most northern european countries are taught that the first pass after transition to attack (winning the ball back form the opponent) should go forward and try to break out as a team on the counter as quickly as possible before the opposition has time to organise its defensive shape.The basic philosophy being `if they are organised it will be much harder to score`.
Interestingly enough, most southern european teams (and in particular former yugoslavian countries such as serbia ) have the the approach of the first pass of transition to attack can even go backwards as long as we have control of the ball. The basic team philosophy being`if we have the ball we will score and its up to them to try and stop us `.
