I'm not referring to the old chestnut regarding plan b etc.
I have had to get used to the fact that Slavisa is sticking to his playing ethos. There is a part of me that respects him for this.
What I am talking about is every team that plays us (not including Wolves, who were just better than us and Ipswich who for the 2nd season running played exactly to our strengths) comes with a plan to entirely combat and exploit what we try and do.
Not only do we not change our ethos in playing style, we never appear to be trying to exploit the other team's weaknesses. In many ways, I am finding this the most frustrating part of the season.
We just continue to do our thing.
I think it was Einstein who said insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results.
4 months late, but welcome to the party anyway.
But these great "tactics" haven't worked all season at home, are you saying that Jokanovic should give them another go on Saturday ?
Or would you prefer to see a little variation ?
Quote from: Statto on November 16, 2017, 01:54:37 PM
The Einstein quote implies that it's sensible to do the same thing and expect the same results. Last season's results were good. That's why we're doing the same thing this season.
My opinion stated elsewhere is when the current tactics click, we're unplayable. The game plan of pressuring us intensely isn't viable for 90 minutes and the teams trying it end up on the arse around the hour mark. When it clicks, that is.
Thats how I see it too. Last season we were notching up late wins, this season late draws.
Not sure I see the difference between a change of ethos and a plan B? If your playing to a teams weaknesses then you are playing in a different way. That being said it is exactly what we need to do. Stop trying to play out the back with average players and a goalkeeper who can't do it and get the ball forward quicker and more direct.
Quote from: MrD1879 on November 16, 2017, 03:18:19 PM
Not sure I see the difference between a change of ethos and a plan B? If your playing to a teams weaknesses then you are playing in a different way. That being said it is exactly what we need to do. Stop trying to play out the back with average players and a goalkeeper who can't do it and get the ball forward quicker and more direct.
Oh dear you've done it now, you'll be accused of playing the long ball, according to some on here the keeper taking a goal kick that ends up in the opposition half is going "route one",
Yes I know that 91 other keepers tend to kick the ball into the opposition half but it's frowned on here, some preferring to see Button and the back 4 performing the "Hot Potato Shuffle" every home game 😕😣
Quote from: BedsFFC on November 16, 2017, 01:21:52 PM
I'm not referring to the old chestnut regarding plan b etc.
I have had to get used to the fact that Slavisa is sticking to his playing ethos. There is a part of me that respects him for this.
What I am talking about is every team that plays us (not including Wolves, who were just better than us and Ipswich who for the 2nd season running played exactly to our strengths) comes with a plan to entirely combat and exploit what we try and do.
Not only do we not change our ethos in playing style, we never appear to be trying to exploit the other team's weaknesses. In many ways, I am finding this the most frustrating part of the season.
We just continue to do our thing.
I think it was Einstein who said insanity Is Doing the Same Thing Over and Over Again and Expecting Different Results.
What would you suggest we do differently? I think we need to start by having more shots and maybe increase the tempo a bit, but I don't think changing formation would help.
Stefan: I think another question is 'if you change the formation', who do you do it with? I'm all for youth but don't think we have 'blooded' enough of them to be trusted against a bunch of hardened pro's like Derby. I'd love to proved wrong.
Quote from: Riversider on November 16, 2017, 03:31:19 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on November 16, 2017, 03:18:19 PM
Not sure I see the difference between a change of ethos and a plan B? If your playing to a teams weaknesses then you are playing in a different way. That being said it is exactly what we need to do. Stop trying to play out the back with average players and a goalkeeper who can't do it and get the ball forward quicker and more direct.
Oh dear you've done it now, you'll be accused of playing the long ball, according to some on here the keeper taking a goal kick that ends up in the opposition half is going "route one",
Yes I know that 91 other keepers tend to kick the ball into the opposition half but it's frowned on here, some preferring to see Button and the back 4 performing the "Hot Potato Shuffle" every home game 😕😣
Haha so very true
At school we had a game like basketball but without the basket. One lad would stand on a pummel horse at either end and had to catch the ball thrown to him by his own team. I worked out that as a tall bloke I could stand in front of the catcher and stop them scoring. After a while they worked out they had to throw the ball in a loop to counteract my tactics.
I didn't then just stand there and do the same thing. I worked out my time was over and I had to go and make the effort somewhere else. Fulham cannot just repeat the tactics of last year because when it worked then we were really good. Now we don't have the right players or the players in form and will have to change tactics. By not doing so a playing slowly from the back and not having the players who can break and hold up the ball just puts us under more pressure.
Any school boy can see we need to change something. The experienced coach is struggling to find out what can work for this team. But change we must.
Quote from: MrD1879 on November 16, 2017, 03:18:19 PM
Not sure I see the difference between a change of ethos and a plan B? If your playing to a teams weaknesses then you are playing in a different way. That being said it is exactly what we need to do. Stop trying to play out the back with average players and a goalkeeper who can't do it and get the ball forward quicker and more direct.
I'm talking about subtle game tweaks. I cant remember the game. I think it was Bolton. They had a clearly vulnerable stand in full back. It was crying out for him to be targetted, dare I say it, in the way Ryan gets targetted. We wholly ignored it and just tried to play our own game
Part of the problem us that we are not playing as well as we did last year because we have been missing a fully-fit Cearney and consequently we have less creativity in the midfield.
We did not replace Aluko and Martin with equivalent standard players. Less creativity and less ability in the final third. Not a good combination.
It appears some think if we play differently, and that must mean longer balls, that all will be well. I just see that that would mean the oppo get more easy wins of the ball, which would only lead to more pressure on us. We just don't have the personnel for that game - we don't have the Zamora-esq forward we can hit it to, for example. We let Smith go and many on this board were happy about it, having been extremely critical of him. (I wasn't in that number, and, even if he was not a Zamora, I always thought he was better than many gave him credit for, and always a useful option.)
Although it is also true that we have to stop conceding first, (because teams then can sit back with more confidence) we simply have to improve in the final third. The movement has to be better, the ability to release the ball from midfield has to improve. I think Fonte plays better when Cearney is on the pitch as Cearney spots his runs, and can deliver the pass.
For me the question is whether the players we have can do this. I hope they can and we start doing it soon.
This is how I'd change it if I could: play a fully fit Cairney and a fully fit Johansen. We've not been able to do that yet this season and that's had a HUGE bearing on our performances and results.
Equally as part of the "Arrogant match tactics" category, this continual insistence on playing Ryan Sessegnon at left back is driving me insane for two reasons,
1, He's not good enough to play there
2, He is our best left winger, and has been outstanding every time he has played there.
If at 16.30 on Saturday Sess is again announced at left back then that will be the final straw that breaks this camels back !
Our tactics last year revolved around a dominant midfield. We were simply better than everyone else in the center of the pitch. We have essentially been without half that midfield for most of the season and our tactics haven't changed. Somebody tell Slava.
Quote from: YankeeJim on November 16, 2017, 05:14:11 PM
Our tactics last year revolved around a dominant midfield. We were simply better than everyone else in the center of the pitch. We have essentially been without half that midfield for most of the season and our tactics haven't changed. Somebody tell Slava.
So what should we change?
4 wins and it's nearly Xmas
Don't know what people are on about moaning - we should all be happy with the performances so far - another pathetic performance coming up sat nite I should think
I don't think Einstein would claim the stated quote since science is often proven by doing the same thing over and over again and hoping to get the same result!
In sport practice makes perfect and I don't think we need a plan 'B' because we haven't yet managed to play plan 'A' at the level of last season. Football is simple - keep the ball and outscore the opposition. SJ managed to get the team to show discipline, skill, trust and self-belief in a demonstration of flair passing even when we were not winning games last season. We haven't managed it this time around primarily because the players at SJ's disposal haven't been good enough to do it on match days.
If and when the players manage to do it again, teams will not find it any easier to breakdown, or be able to press us into mistakes, than it was to do it last season because clever possession football is exceedingly difficult to defend against especially when you have potential goalscorers everywhere. That is what we seem to be missing - goalscorers everywhere, discipline, skill, trust and self-belief and they are all correctable provided the players in the squad are good enough. Perhaps Saturday will surprise us all by being insane....
The type of plan b many are advocating ie going direct to a big man in the last 15 minutes is not only not playing to our strengths but definitely giving our opponents the type of game in which THEY feel most comfortable.
Teams worked us out in that case by last christmas but that didnt stop us from being the best team in the division from december to May.
Quote from: colinwhite on November 16, 2017, 05:38:40 PM
The type of plan b many are advocating ie going direct to a big man in the last 15 minutes is not only not playing to our strengths but definitely giving our opponents the type of game in which THEY feel most comfortable.
Teams worked us out in that case by last christmas but that didnt stop us from being the best team in the division from december to May.
Being more direct and not farting around suicidelly at the back does not mean you have to play to a big target man. :dead horse: aaaaaaaaaaaagggagagaghhhhhh
I'm glad I got that out of my system 093.gif
Quote from: MrD1879 on November 16, 2017, 06:03:19 PM
Quote from: colinwhite on November 16, 2017, 05:38:40 PM
The type of plan b many are advocating ie going direct to a big man in the last 15 minutes is not only not playing to our strengths but definitely giving our opponents the type of game in which THEY feel most comfortable.
Teams worked us out in that case by last christmas but that didnt stop us from being the best team in the division from december to May.
Being more direct and not farting around suicidelly at the back does not mean you have to play to a big target man. :dead horse: aaaaaaaaaaaagggagagaghhhhhh
I'm glad I got that out of my system 093.gif
you say that, but that's almost certainly what many mean and call for those type of players.
We have so much pressure at the end of games because of the way we play. We don't need to go direct, what we do need to do is increase urgency and intensity.
Just lumping the ball in is meat and drink for most championship teams.
Quote from: MJG on November 16, 2017, 06:09:55 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on November 16, 2017, 06:03:19 PM
Quote from: colinwhite on November 16, 2017, 05:38:40 PM
The type of plan b many are advocating ie going direct to a big man in the last 15 minutes is not only not playing to our strengths but definitely giving our opponents the type of game in which THEY feel most comfortable.
Teams worked us out in that case by last christmas but that didnt stop us from being the best team in the division from december to May.
Being more direct and not farting around suicidelly at the back does not mean you have to play to a big target man. :dead horse: aaaaaaaaaaaagggagagaghhhhhh
I'm glad I got that out of my system 093.gif
you say that, but that's almost certainly what many mean and call for those type of players.
We have so much pressure at the end of games because of the way we play. We don't need to go direct, what we do need to do is increase urgency and intensity.
Just lumping the ball in is meat and drink for most championship teams.
That Mr MJG is a good point, well made. Thank you.
Alot of it is down to our final pass, particularly from wide positions. we are very wasteful after getting ourselves into good positions.Cant actually remember conceding any goals this season from overplaying at the back.
Quote from: MJG on November 16, 2017, 06:09:55 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on November 16, 2017, 06:03:19 PM
Quote from: colinwhite on November 16, 2017, 05:38:40 PM
The type of plan b many are advocating ie going direct to a big man in the last 15 minutes is not only not playing to our strengths but definitely giving our opponents the type of game in which THEY feel most comfortable.
Teams worked us out in that case by last christmas but that didnt stop us from being the best team in the division from december to May.
Being more direct and not farting around suicidelly at the back does not mean you have to play to a big target man. :dead horse: aaaaaaaaaaaagggagagaghhhhhh
I'm glad I got that out of my system 093.gif
you say that, but that's almost certainly what many mean and call for those type of players.
We have so much pressure at the end of games because of the way we play. We don't need to go direct, what we do need to do is increase urgency and intensity.
Just lumping the ball in is meat and drink for most championship teams.
e
For the love of God, No it isn't !
Quote from: Riversider on November 16, 2017, 08:54:15 PM
Quote from: MJG on November 16, 2017, 06:09:55 PM
Quote from: MrD1879 on November 16, 2017, 06:03:19 PM
Quote from: colinwhite on November 16, 2017, 05:38:40 PM
The type of plan b many are advocating ie going direct to a big man in the last 15 minutes is not only not playing to our strengths but definitely giving our opponents the type of game in which THEY feel most comfortable.
Teams worked us out in that case by last christmas but that didnt stop us from being the best team in the division from december to May.
Being more direct and not farting around suicidelly at the back does not mean you have to play to a big target man. :dead horse: aaaaaaaaaaaagggagagaghhhhhh
I'm glad I got that out of my system 093.gif
you say that, but that's almost certainly what many mean and call for those type of players.
We have so much pressure at the end of games because of the way we play. We don't need to go direct, what we do need to do is increase urgency and intensity.
Just lumping the ball in is meat and drink for most championship teams.
e
For the love of God, No it isn't !
well we will disagree then. I've given my reasoning behind my comments so I believe it is.
Ok lets play the ball into the opponents Half over their back four and sit back and try to win the ball back in order to hit them on the break. Sounds to me a bit like the footboll Kit Symons got us playing.
One win in eight games at the Cottage, how many more games do we have to suffer without a home win before Jocanovic decides a slight change to his tactics will have to be made.
Quote from: toshes mate on November 16, 2017, 05:37:16 PM
In sport practice makes perfect and I don't think we need a plan 'B' because we haven't yet managed to play plan 'A' at the level of last season. Football is simple - keep the ball and outscore the opposition. SJ managed to get the team to show discipline, skill, trust and self-belief in a demonstration of flair passing even when we were not winning games last season. We haven't managed it this time around primarily because the players at SJ's disposal haven't been good enough to do it on match days.
If and when the players manage to do it again, teams will not find it any easier to breakdown, or be able to press us into mistakes, than it was to do it last season because clever possession football is exceedingly difficult to defend against especially when you have potential goalscorers everywhere.
Well put.
Quote from: filham on November 16, 2017, 10:04:10 PM
One win in eight games at the Cottage, how many more games do we have to suffer without a home win before Jocanovic decides a slight change to his tactics will have to be made.
Jokanovic made a significant tactical change for our last home game: we played the opening forty-five with three central defenders and Fredericks and Sessegnon further up the flanks. As Tosh's Mate points out, tactics don't yield the same for all teams at all times - they are still dependent upon the ability and/or current form of the players who are implementing them.
Quote from: Arthur on November 17, 2017, 02:20:10 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on November 16, 2017, 05:37:16 PM
In sport practice makes perfect and I don't think we need a plan 'B' because we haven't yet managed to play plan 'A' at the level of last season. Football is simple - keep the ball and outscore the opposition. SJ managed to get the team to show discipline, skill, trust and self-belief in a demonstration of flair passing even when we were not winning games last season. We haven't managed it this time around primarily because the players at SJ's disposal haven't been good enough to do it on match days.
If and when the players manage to do it again, teams will not find it any easier to breakdown, or be able to press us into mistakes, than it was to do it last season because clever possession football is exceedingly difficult to defend against especially when you have potential goalscorers everywhere.
Well put.
Quote from: filham on November 16, 2017, 10:04:10 PM
One win in eight games at the Cottage, how many more games do we have to suffer without a home win before Jocanovic decides a slight change to his tactics will have to be made.
Jokanovic made a significant tactical change for our last home game: we played the opening forty-five with three central defenders and Fredericks and Sessegnon further up the flanks. As Tosh's Mate points out, tactics don't yield the same for all teams at all times - they are still dependent upon the ability and/or current form of the players who are implementing them.
and just as important is the application and the commitment and the attitude of the players, not forgetting the work rate by each player, who should be motivated to run through a brick wall, and come out fighting on the other side.
Once an individual masters the skills the coaches teach you, discipline, self-belief, trust and confidence builds up over time with each of your team mates naturally and instinctively stronger with some than with others and application, commitment, attitude and work rate rises exponentially as each 'new' partnership is forged with those who are more difficult to assimilate into the overall team chemistry.
Relationship chemistry is the stuff of all team sport. In the game of football, with its natural freedom to explore areas of the pitch your position may suggest you shouldn't venture into, and yet all those chemical co-dependencies remain the same no matter which blades of grass are under your feet. We can all make relationships work if we really want to and it is wanting to that brings the desired end product. The team agenda from the cleaners and tea makers upwards has to be in tune with chemistry that works.
What changes when relationships are perfected in a team is its support network which relies on all those practice games, all the changing room banter, all the private words, all the shaken hands, all the arms around shoulders, all the wiped tears, all the laughter, all the apologies, all the healing and healed wounds, which discipline has taught you are so important to stopping any enemy from being able to create a division in your ranks. A team that cannot be divided or permanently hurt is the prize that any team coach aims for. SJ got close last season and I have a feeling he can get closer to perfection if only the upper echelons could see the role they have to play for him in building a team that cannot be broken.
