Is it time for Bettinelli to get a shot between the sticks? I'm not saying Button has done poorly, but some of his decision making, blocks rather than "push aways"/catches have baffled me at times. Just throwing the question out there.
Personally, I think it's been time for Betts since August 5th.
After some of the really tame goals tonight it would be hard not to give betts a game? that stat I read about his kicking surely cannot include goal kicks as I don't think one has ever made it to a Fulham player!!
Past few months Button has kept us in games.. and you want to bench him after one poor performance that didn't even cost us the points?
Add to that he's a confidence player... and You're putting nails in his Fulham career coffin completely prematurely.
He doesn't have the distribution to cope with the high press that have had people claiming teams have "worked us out" however... but until we purchase a goalkeeper with this attributes for this specific purpose, should he lose his place?
There's one sitting on the bench.
Quote from: Milo on November 22, 2017, 12:52:33 AM
Past few months Button has kept us in games.. and you want to bench him after one poor performance that didn't even cost us the points?
Add to that he's a confidence player... and You're putting nails in his Fulham career coffin completely prematurely.
He doesn't have the distribution to cope with the high press that have had people claiming teams have "worked us out" however... but until we purchase a goalkeeper with this attributes for this specific purpose, should he lose his place?
Way to overreact to a simple post that merely mentioned a change whilst also saying "I'm not saying Button has done poorly". Who can replace Button? The very goalkeeper that did in the last 6 - 8 games of last season and led us into the playoffs. The player who has come through our own academy and signed a new contact over the summer. Get a grip.
Quote from: simplyfulham on November 21, 2017, 11:34:59 PM
Personally, I think it's been time for Betts since August 5th.
Not possible - he was injured - and for several matches after that
He was first choice at the end of last season but picked up an injury in the preseason
His problem is that he's proved to be fragile - gets the chance - plays well - picks up an injury
No.
Button's had one bad game - he was probably MOTM the first 3 games and has been pretty solid ever since. Granted his long kicking will probably always be pony but dropping him after one shaky performance is not the way to go with GKs particularly.
Additionally, Betts is a talented one on one keeper / shotstopper but one of the worst keepers dealing with crosses I've ever seen in a Fulham shirt. Bringing him in will NOT inspire confidence in what is already a shaky defence low on confidence.
Emphatic no. Just no.
No
Not sure David Button deserves to be dropped yet. But he does not look as though he communicates enough with Kalas and Ream. As a unit they are not getting the best out of each other.
I like Betts, and would not object to him playing. But at the moment that would be a little unfair to Button overall.
Although Button needs to concentrate on polishing up his shortcomings.
Button has had a good season. Came back in after being dropped, and rightly so, at the end of last season.
1 poor game doesn't mean he must be dropped. Yesterday he wasn't helped by some truly shambolic defending.
The who defence needs to take a good look at themselves. Button will take 99% of the blame, but Kalas and Ream need a rocket up their back side too.
Quote from: maoconnor on November 22, 2017, 01:39:18 AM
Quote from: Milo on November 22, 2017, 12:52:33 AM
Past few months Button has kept us in games.. and you want to bench him after one poor performance that didn't even cost us the points?
Add to that he's a confidence player... and You're putting nails in his Fulham career coffin completely prematurely.
He doesn't have the distribution to cope with the high press that have had people claiming teams have "worked us out" however... but until we purchase a goalkeeper with this attributes for this specific purpose, should he lose his place?
Way to overreact to a simple post that merely mentioned a change whilst also saying "I'm not saying Button has done poorly". Who can replace Button? The very goalkeeper that did in the last 6 - 8 games of last season and led us into the playoffs. The player who has come through our own academy and signed a new contact over the summer. Get a grip.
I agree on both counts. Overreaction, yes. Time for Betts? In my view also yes. Let's not forget that he finished last season as the clear number one. He earned that accolade and having fully recovered from an unfortunate injury I would like to see our number one keeper back behind the stickers. I am in no way knocking Button, he has done a decent job, but Betts was ahead at the end of last season and I think it would be right to play him.
IF we had blown it at the end and it was down to him then maybe. But id not drop him after a win.
The back three of Kalas, ream and button have not been strong enough this season and conceding 4 again last night proves this. Something needs to change and I would give Bettinelli a go because of his exploits at the end of last season plus I think I organises the defence better then button
Quote from: Count Flapula on November 22, 2017, 02:59:37 AM
Granted his long kicking will probably always be pony
Why is that something our fans are okay with? That just seems utterly mad to me.
He is a goalkeeper, he needs to be able to distribute effectively, or am I wishing for too much?
100% yes, Button is a liability.
If you watch the goalkeeping on YouTube in the 70s and 80s, there was far less parrying shots and over exaggerated diving than nowadays and that was before the advent of keepers wearing enormous padded gloves.
I assume that its just the way that keepers are coached nowadays and possibly the lighter ball moving in the air more, but you see lots of instances where it appears to be simpler and safer to catch the ball than to push it away.
Definitely.
Quote from: Sir Alec of good Stock on November 22, 2017, 10:21:16 AM
If you watch the goalkeeping on YouTube in the 70s and 80s, there was far less parrying shots and over exaggerated diving than nowadays and that was before the advent of keepers wearing enormous padded gloves.
I assume that its just the way that keepers are coached nowadays and possibly the lighter ball moving in the air more, but you see lots of instances where it appears to be simpler and safer to catch the ball than to push it away.
Yes the ball has made all the difference to how goalkeepers are coached nowadays. Parry and catch has taken over from catch and hold.
Button has generally been adequate but Betts needs some game time too. It would not do any harm to give him a run out. Both GK´s play for the same club so Slavisa must chat to them about some form of rotation to keep them both match fit.
It will be interesting.Buttons has had a good season but has been more passive of late when it comes to going out for crosses.
It all comes down to how Bettenelli has been in training ; if he has been really knocking at the door then maybe he will come in.
I wouldnt drop Buttons but sometimes another voice between the sticks can make a significant difference.
I have not viewed last night's goals . If more than one of them were real keeper blunders then yes the manager should give thought to playing Betts,
However I have seen every game at the Cottage this season and Button has always played well. In my opinion therefore he deserves to keep his place.
Quote from: joeemslie on November 22, 2017, 10:14:27 AM
Quote from: Count Flapula on November 22, 2017, 02:59:37 AM
Granted his long kicking will probably always be pony
Why is that something our fans are okay with? That just seems utterly mad to me.
He is a goalkeeper, he needs to be able to distribute effectively, or am I wishing for too much?
I'd far rather out up with a GK who can't kick long when our game is about short passing out from the back, rather than install a GK who looks completely all at sea almost every time a cross / corner comes in - that will cost us more goals than a poor long goal kick.
Bringing in a GK who has NO command of his box for crosses combined with a defence already low on confidence / already vulnerable physically at corners (Button is probably the only player I don't worry about at corners) is a recipe for disaster - not improvement. The question should be why should the fans put up with a GK who can't catch.
Sounds like I'm seriously digging out Betts - he is talented but that is a big weakness in his game. If he was playing behind an imposing, solid, organised back 4 who could cover his deficiencies better then maybe give him a chance. I just don't think him behind this current back line would mean big problems.
Quote from: Count Flapula on November 22, 2017, 11:21:42 AM
Quote from: joeemslie on November 22, 2017, 10:14:27 AM
Quote from: Count Flapula on November 22, 2017, 02:59:37 AM
Granted his long kicking will probably always be pony
Why is that something our fans are okay with? That just seems utterly mad to me.
He is a goalkeeper, he needs to be able to distribute effectively, or am I wishing for too much?
I'd far rather out up with a GK who can't kick long when our game is about short passing out from the back, rather than install a GK who looks completely all at sea almost every time a cross / corner comes in - that will cost us more goals than a poor long goal kick.
Bringing in a GK who has NO command of his box for crosses combined with a defence already low on confidence / already vulnerable physically at corners (Button is probably the only player I don't worry about at corners) is a recipe for disaster - not improvement. The question should be why should the fans put up with a GK who can't catch.
Sounds like I'm seriously digging out Betts - he is talented but that is a big weakness in his game. If he was playing behind an imposing, solid, organised back 4 who could cover his deficiencies better then maybe give him a chance. I just don't think him behind this current back line would mean bug problems.
Betts dealt pretty well with crosses in the latter half of last season. I understand your concern but I think it is based on an outdated view.
Button was at fault for the first two goals and he'd be first to admit it. However, for the analysis of the two late 'gifted' goals one has to look at the whole team and how it is attitude higher up the pitch than the goalkeeper to suss out what went wrong.
The coaches will determine just how Button has dealt with last night's game and feedback. Whatever the decision is it won't be purely based on one man's two mistakes when others over the whole pitch made many more poor decisions. We won a game by outscoring our opponents and if we do that every remaining game this season we'll have 107 points and I won't be caring who played in goal.....
Button has been really solid this season - much improved and I have been so pleased (for him) that his form has improved.
Over the last 10 years or so it seems that goalkeepers have been coached to save with their feet as much as with their hands. 'Back in the day' I think fans would have screamed 'use your hands' if a keeper had kicked a ball away rather than trying to gather it. There are plusses and minuses with this but I feel a couple of shots may have been saved last night with the old fashioned method. In my youth, as a goalkeeper at the lowest levels, I would never have dreamed of using my feet to save a shot !
Immediately Bettinelli came in at the end of last season, we went on a fantastic run. I like him a lot yet I feel it would be wrong to drop Button purely for last night's performance.
I'm a big fan of Button, especially this season he's been superb. Yesterday he was responsible for 2 goals. One mistake can always happen, but two in the same game is harsh. Shouldn't have even come to that if our defenders would position themselves properly. However, there is no excuse for Button. Betts should get the chance to show if he has improved.
Good goalies have occasional bad nights on shot stopping. The first was a 100% clanger. The second I'm not so sure about - not convinced by conventional wisdom that a well positioned goalie should never concede on the near post. Sometimes they get too close to the near stick, leave too much wide open on the other side, all in the interests of not being embarrassed. Button's been good this season. I'd give him benefit of the doubt and stick with him
Bettinellis problems with distribution in the Reading home leg makes me think he's not yet the man for the big occasion and may never be. He was practically paralysed with indecision. In contrast Button gets put in the brown stuff and has got better at dealing with it.
Selling Betts and buying someone better seems a reasonable plan for January.
Quote from: filham on November 22, 2017, 11:01:40 AM
I have not viewed last night's goals . If more than one of them were real keeper blunders then yes the manager should give thought to playing Betts,
However I have seen every game at the Cottage this season and Button has always played well. In my opinion therefore he deserves to keep his place.
Three of them were arguably Button's fault, the first two were entirely his fault.
I wasn't a fan when we first signed Button, actually, I was quite surprised, and thought we'd have gone for better calibre, especially when we had McCarthy sitting at Motspur the January before.
For me, both are not good enough, but, Button for me, is the best of a bad bunch. Both have their faults, both have their qualities, but there isn't enough in the pair to start chopping and changing.
Moving forward, I'd like to see this position improved, and another goalkeeper brought in.
Button was Flowers recommendation, by all accounts.
[quote author=Twig link=topic=62602.msg914224#msg914224 date
Betts dealt pretty well with crosses in the latter half of last season. I understand your concern but I think it is based on an outdated view.
[/quote]
Sorry but I was at the games and he just didn't - he definitely still flapped at multiple crosses. When he came in he did well overall but was still decidedly dodgy on crosses - luckily it didn't cost us a goal during his run. That was behind a defence with more confidence as well - now we are leaking goals and other than last night Button has been solid all season. EVERY GK has a bad game at some point, dropping them after one bad game is knee jerk and can cause more harm than good.
If you look at the Greats like Banks and Shilton they never made unnecessary saves and giving away cheap corners,they could judge a shot from anywhere that was going 6inches past the post or over the bar.
A lot of the shotstoppers today can't do that they have to make a spectacular save to make them look good,and give away a corner when the ball was going wide or over the top.
Quote from: Carborundum on November 22, 2017, 01:00:34 PM
Good goalies have occasional bad nights on shot stopping. The first was a 100% clanger. The second I'm not so sure about - not convinced by conventional wisdom that a well positioned goalie should never concede on the near post. Sometimes they get too close to the near stick, leave too much wide open on the other side, all in the interests of not being embarrassed. Button's been good this season. I'd give him benefit of the doubt and stick with him
Bettinellis problems with distribution in the Reading home leg makes me think he's not yet the man for the big occasion and may never be. He was practically paralysed with indecision. In contrast Button gets put in the brown stuff and has got better at dealing with it.
Selling Betts and buying someone better seems a reasonable plan for January.
It has become a cheap cliché for commentators to use whenever it happens and should in no way be applied in every instance. It's in the same category as, "if it isn't a penalty, then the attacker should be booked for diving" - that lazy, non-thinking comment that co-commentators used to make, as if a normal everyday fair tackle (when at least one player goes down through impact) could not take place in the penalty box.
While I'm at it, that a goalkeeper's parry should always be pushed wide of danger, is also a cliché. Sometimes, that a goalkeeper has even been able to reach the ball can be an achievement in itself - never mind also being required to push the ball wide of the immediate action.
Long overdue. Against Derby he threw the ball to Sess who was closed down by three Derby players. He lost the ball and they went on to score.
Quote from: The Swan on November 22, 2017, 02:11:31 PM
Long overdue. Against Derby he threw the ball to Sess who was closed down by three Derby players. He lost the ball and they went on to score.
As you just said, Sessegnon lost the ball, not Button.
He dropped deep, making himself available.
When people have weak games they should expect to be dropped or rested. This is as the same as Fonte not being a regular, as the same as Kalas being dropped earlier in the season. I don't see why a keepers position shouldn't be under threat if he plays poorly or makes errors. Button was #1 at the start of 2017/18 and played well to stay ahead of Betts when Marcus regained fitness. But whether Button is dropped is not only down to his mistakes or his form, Marcus and Magnus, whoever else needs to show it on the training pitch. Odd that Marcus doesn't play in u23 games as one of the older players, not a regular but one or 2 games to blow off the cobwebs. If he's good enough for the bench he needs a bit of match practice otherwise he wont be ready should Button, as is happening , suffer a dip in form.
Gonna go out on a whim and say Betts' injury was predictable in terms of being overlooked/ ignored in pre season where he was left out of tours and squads in favour of youth team players. He was linked to other teams and a contract disputes too I think , but leaving him out left him totally unprepared and not much was said of it, because unprepared can probably sum up all of pre season to be fair.
Not a button fan, but what he lacks in ability, he makes up for in luck. All season he has been making poor saves where the ball drops back into the middle of the box, and until last night, the strikers have fluffed the rebound. So has his luck run out, or was it just a blip last night. Either way, he let's in more than Betts does
For what it's worth, I've always thought Button is a liability.
How he keeps getting picked is beyond me.
At fault for the first one, should never have spilled it
At fault for the second one, beaten through his legs, should not be beaten from a tight angle at the near post
At fault for the third on(unless it took a deflection) totally flat footed
At fault for the fourth one, should have seen the Sheffield player break away on his own and should have come out to put pressure on him
Amost at fault for the corner where Cairney cleared off the line. He then flapoped around like a goldfish out of water
Apart from that I thought he had a good game
Button is sloppy. He's always got at least 1 game changing mistake in him per game. It's the same with Ream as well.
Quote from: sunburywhite on November 22, 2017, 05:57:28 PM
At fault for the first one, should never have spilled it
At fault for the second one, beaten through his legs, should not be beaten from a tight angle at the near post
At fault for the third on(unless it took a deflection) totally flat footed
At fault for the fourth one, should have seen the Sheffield player break away on his own and should have come out to put pressure on him
Amost at fault for the corner where Cairney cleared off the line. He then flapoped around like a goldfish out of water
Apart from that I thought he had a good game
Dearie Me...👺
Quote from: Fulham Joe on November 22, 2017, 02:23:00 PM
For what it's worth, I've always thought Button is a liability.
How he keeps getting picked is beyond me.
I would understand you're statement if we have a better keeper on the bench.
I believe we do not.
I think you will find that Button will not be available over the Christmas period anyway, as I read in the paper that he is starring in the Christmas Pantomime Cinderella, at the London Paladium.
Quote from: maoconnor on November 22, 2017, 01:39:18 AM
Quote from: Milo on November 22, 2017, 12:52:33 AM
Past few months Button has kept us in games.. and you want to bench him after one poor performance that didn't even cost us the points?
Add to that he's a confidence player... and You're putting nails in his Fulham career coffin completely prematurely.
He doesn't have the distribution to cope with the high press that have had people claiming teams have "worked us out" however... but until we purchase a goalkeeper with this attributes for this specific purpose, should he lose his place?
Way to overreact to a simple post that merely mentioned a change whilst also saying "I'm not saying Button has done poorly". Who can replace Button? The very goalkeeper that did in the last 6 - 8 games of last season and led us into the playoffs. The player who has come through our own academy and signed a new contact over the summer. Get a grip.
Having re-read your post and my own it does seem like I jumped down your throat a little!
Sorry about that! In my head it came across a lot more mellow! Problem with forums and not chatting over a beer I think :p
Nothing surprises me anymore with regard to who gets picked and who doesn't.
I am not sure if this Millwall game is the right match to change keepers, but on the other hand it could be as Button is starting to look vulnerable again.
It's difficult looking in from the outside exactly what is discussed between Manager and players. If Jok drops Button, and Betts has a difficult match, and Button because he is dropped loses his confidence, then Jok is up the Swanny without a paddle.
On the other hand Betts could keep a clean sheet and we all live happily ever after.
It's a big call, i am glad it's Joks call and not mine.
But if my life depended on it. I would pick Betts.
Quote from: Milo on November 22, 2017, 09:40:48 PM
Quote from: maoconnor on November 22, 2017, 01:39:18 AM
Quote from: Milo on November 22, 2017, 12:52:33 AM
Past few months Button has kept us in games.. and you want to bench him after one poor performance that didn't even cost us the points?
Add to that he's a confidence player... and You're putting nails in his Fulham career coffin completely prematurely.
He doesn't have the distribution to cope with the high press that have had people claiming teams have "worked us out" however... but until we purchase a goalkeeper with this attributes for this specific purpose, should he lose his place?
Way to overreact to a simple post that merely mentioned a change whilst also saying "I'm not saying Button has done poorly". Who can replace Button? The very goalkeeper that did in the last 6 - 8 games of last season and led us into the playoffs. The player who has come through our own academy and signed a new contact over the summer. Get a grip.
Having re-read your post and my own it does seem like I jumped down your throat a little!
Sorry about that! In my head it came across a lot more mellow! Problem with forums and not chatting over a beer I think :p
It's alright, I also did what I claimed you had done and overreacted myself. All is well that ends well, let's just hope we keep winning!
The irony to this thread is that Brighton have Tim Krul on their bench, whom I considered to be the best goalie in the Premier League, when he played for Newcastle. He hasn't played for them yet. I'd love him to be ours.
Quote from: New Kid on the Block on November 23, 2017, 05:21:58 AM
The irony to this thread is that Brighton have Tim Krul on their bench, whom I considered to be the best goalie in the Premier League, when he played for Newcastle. He hasn't played for them yet. I'd love him to be ours.
My oh my do they really!? Would snap him up as well!
I certainly hope we sign someone better January.
Quote from: gang on November 23, 2017, 06:17:54 PM
I certainly hope we sign someone better January.
I have to say with due respect to Button, but unless he addresses his shortcomings immediately, and gets on top of his game overall, and if Betts gets his opportunity, and fails to take it showing no improvement, then we have no choice.
Even so if a better keeper becomes available in the Window, we have to go for him.
Button is an embarrassment and the sooner he leaves the club the better.
Where is Alex Mccarthy, Did he end up at Southampton?
I'll always support whoever wears the jersey. But for me, Betts edges it.
It can't be coincidence that we had such a great run at the end of last season, with Betts in goal. For me, he talks much more to the back 4, organising them all the time. Also, he mixes up his distribution with throws, roll outs and cheeky chips to the touchline. Both areas that Button does not excel at.
Quote from: Count Flapula on November 22, 2017, 01:18:52 PM
[quote author=Twig link=topic=62602.msg914224#msg914224 date
Betts dealt pretty well with crosses in the latter half of last season. I understand your concern but I think it is based on an outdated view.
Sorry but I was at the games and he just didn't - he definitely still flapped at multiple crosses. When he came in he did well overall but was still decidedly dodgy on crosses - luckily it didn't cost us a goal during his run. That was behind a defence with more confidence as well - now we are leaking goals and other than last night Button has been solid all season. EVERY GK has a bad game at some point, dropping them after one bad game is knee jerk and can cause more harm than good.
[/quote]
Well we will just have to agre to disagree on this.
Both of our keepers are mediocre, but I think Betts deserves a runout tomorrow -- assuming he's shown well in practice. When Button stops doing even the basic things consistently well, then his position should be up for grabs. Part of the reason we haven't kept a clean sheet at home for a year or whatever is Button very rarely makes saves he's not supposed to make. So we give up a couple big chances a match, and at least one ends up in the net. Would Betts be better? Not sure, but maybe hot hand rules for a few matches and we get on a good run of points gained. We're 14th in the league. It's not like Button has been the reason we're in a playoff position or whatever.
Quote from: ffcthereligion on November 24, 2017, 12:38:48 PM
Button is an embarrassment and the sooner he leaves the club the better.
d
Bit harsh - He's saved us more points than he's lost us this season.
Quote from: The Old Count on November 24, 2017, 07:30:13 PM
Quote from: ffcthereligion on November 24, 2017, 12:38:48 PM
Button is an embarrassment and the sooner he leaves the club the better.
d
Bit harsh - He's saved us more points than he's lost us this season.
And the fans recognised this by voting him MOTM on a couple of occasions.
The way the team have been instructed to play is out from the back, even if (like Millwall did) the opposition push up high to stop us playing out from the back.
When this happens, it leads to it's fair share of hospital passes, with the goalie and backs put under immediate pressure.
The theory is that at least you have possession, whereas a punt up field will as likely be mopped up by the opposition as not.
So I was not one of those giving Button a hard time yesterday. It's the way Slav has set the team up to play.
Shame to see that some in the crowd are getting on Button's back and giving him grief, come what may. Can't do him or the rest of the lads any favours.
Whilst Button has an occasional bad day at the office (I don't think he played particularly well at Sheff Utd for example), there have been more occasions where he has been solid and saved us points - more than he has lost us.
Button's sometimes not confident seeming playing out from the back, and this can seem risky, but it's obviously manager's instructions to do this.
But getting on Button's back only makes the problem worse, I think - makes him more nervous.
Agree with Burt, although his mistakes have lost us a few points, he has more often saved us points, sometimes in the same game.
If anyone thinks Bettinelli is the answer, then they need to think again. I believe fans want to see a change, just for the sake of it, but, unfortunately, you're just replacing one issue with another.
Button isn't great, we all know that, I'm not a fan of him myself, but, Bettinelli, is no better. I could understand if his kicking, catching, commanding, distribution, confidence was head and shoulder above Button, but it's not.
By making these changes to an already frail team, from what I see is a like for like change, you risk unsettling the team again.
I just seriously hope that one, if not both are replaced in the up and coming transfer windows.
Quote from: Jimsbeerbelly on November 26, 2017, 05:46:09 PM
If anyone thinks Bettinelli is the answer, then they need to think again. I believe fans want to see a change, just for the sake of it, but, unfortunately, you're just replacing one issue with another.
Button isn't great, we all know that, I'm not a fan of him myself, but, Bettinelli, is no better. I could understand if his kicking, catching, commanding, distribution, confidence was head and shoulder above Button, but it's not.
By making these changes to an already frail team, from what I see is a like for like change, you risk unsettling the team again.
I just seriously hope that one, if not both are replaced in the up and coming transfer windows.
Agree 100%. I would accept the "drop Button" comments if there was a better goalkeeper on the bench. He isn't much different to Button in terms of quality.
