Well, we made hard work of that but a win is a win, plus a clean sheet, though, I hate doing this, but David Button is making a lot of people anxious, he even got an ironic cheer when he eventually kicked it long.
I don't get it, Why would any sane minded person want us to kick it long when it was clear Milwall were superior physically and better in the air?
Was speaking to Millwall fan after the game and he said he wish they played like we did and kept it on the deck but conceded they don;t have the players to play that way.
Winning London Derbies at the best of times is never easy. Especially with our recent home form.
So I am just grateful for three points at the moment, and not forgetting a clean sheet.
Quote from: @jolslover on November 25, 2017, 06:24:05 PM
I don't get it, Why would any sane minded person want us to kick it long when it was clear Milwall were superior physically and better in the air?
Was speaking to Millwall fan after the game and he said he wish they played like we did and kept it on the deck but conceded they don;t have the players to play that way.
When I say long, poor choice of words. I was trying to say an alternative to the short pass out, which on quite a few occasions put the receiving play in difficulties because he was being closed down
Poor Button - damned if he does damned if he doesn't. Most teams are superior physically and better in the air than us.
Quote from: The Old Count on November 25, 2017, 06:45:02 PM
Poor Button - damned if he does damned if he doesn't. Most teams are superior physically and better in the air than us.
But we are better than most teams when the ball is on the floor, so that's why we play the way we do, No idea why our fans are so keen to see Button kick it long.
Quote from: @jolslover on November 25, 2017, 06:46:40 PM
Quote from: The Old Count on November 25, 2017, 06:45:02 PM
Poor Button - damned if he does damned if he doesn't. Most teams are superior physically and better in the air than us.
But we are better than most teams when the ball is on the floor, so that's why we play the way we do, No idea why our fans are so keen to see Button kick it long.
I don't think that fans are keen for him to knock it long just not to play suicidal football. There was atleast three times that it wasn't on yet he still did it. He spent half the warm up hitting the diagonal to betts on the wing yet barely did it in the game
Quote from: @jolslover on November 25, 2017, 06:46:40 PM
Quote from: The Old Count on November 25, 2017, 06:45:02 PM
Poor Button - damned if he does damned if he doesn't. Most teams are superior physically and better in the air than us.
But we are better than most teams when the ball is on the floor, so that's why we play the way we do, No idea why our fans are so keen to see Button kick it long.
When we're being pressed high up sometimes it's good to go long IF you have an outlet: a player like Chris Martin for example.
Quote from: Statto on November 25, 2017, 06:52:44 PM
Quote from: @jolslover on November 25, 2017, 06:46:40 PM
Quote from: The Old Count on November 25, 2017, 06:45:02 PM
Poor Button - damned if he does damned if he doesn't. Most teams are superior physically and better in the air than us.
But we are better than most teams when the ball is on the floor, so that's why we play the way we do, No idea why our fans are so keen to see Button kick it long.
Agree. Cannot understand why after over a year some people have still not worked out (a) that button is under orders from Jokanovic to play it short and (b) the reasons Jokanovic wants us to play like that. The ironic cheer today was embarrassing, shows how many idiots we have in the crowd
'the ironic cheer was embarassing'. Agree - it helps the opposition when supporters get on their own players' backs.
Quote from: Statto on November 25, 2017, 06:52:44 PM
Quote from: @jolslover on November 25, 2017, 06:46:40 PM
Quote from: The Old Count on November 25, 2017, 06:45:02 PM
Poor Button - damned if he does damned if he doesn't. Most teams are superior physically and better in the air than us.
But we are better than most teams when the ball is on the floor, so that's why we play the way we do, No idea why our fans are so keen to see Button kick it long.
Agree. Cannot understand why after over a year some people have still not worked out (a) that button is under orders from Jokanovic to play it short and (b) the reasons Jokanovic wants us to play like that. The ironic cheer today was embarrassing, shows how many idiots we have in the crowd
Agree mate.
As I have already said, long was a poor choice and I am certainly not advocating long ball football, all I am saying is that most teams have Sussed that we try to build from the back and have countered that by pressing the player who is receiving the ball, so an alternative is to lob the ball into midfield which quite often has an unmarked fulham player occupying that space. If that makes me an idiot, well so be it.
In the second half Millwall played us well with a high pressing game making Button play it long for their big centre halves to nod back and we struggled. When we did get the ball we either panicked and kicked it long again or we tried the quick break and were guilty of some poor passing and giving the ball away cheaply. As usual we did get round their defence several times but no final product, trying to recall a meaningful shot on target in the second half, certainly the keeper didn't have to make any saves.
Quote from: @jolslover on November 25, 2017, 06:46:40 PM
Quote from: The Old Count on November 25, 2017, 06:45:02 PM
Poor Button - damned if he does damned if he doesn't. Most teams are superior physically and better in the air than us.
But we are better than most teams when the ball is on the floor, so that's why we play the way we do, No idea why our fans are so keen to see Button kick it long.
because he keeps on passing the ball out to players already under pressure. Yes he has his his assets but for me kick it long rather than play us into trouble.i think he's a liability and should be given a rest.
Quote from: Peabody on November 25, 2017, 07:07:06 PM
As I have already said, long was a poor choice and I am certainly not advocating long ball football, all I am saying is that most teams have Sussed that we try to build from the back and have countered that by pressing the player who is receiving the ball, so an alternative is to lob the ball into midfield which quite often has an unmarked fulham player occupying that space. If that makes me an idiot, well so be it.
Completely agree with you Peabody. Button was putting himself under pressure unnecessarily with the short pass outs which often came back to him. He doesn't seem able to do an accurate midfield lob and the punching out when he can simply catch the ball is baffling. His first "long ball" in the second half was a line drive right into a Millwall player.
Sorry, but I would like to see Bettinelli back.
Quote from: Statto on November 25, 2017, 06:52:44 PM
Quote from: @jolslover on November 25, 2017, 06:46:40 PM
Quote from: The Old Count on November 25, 2017, 06:45:02 PM
Poor Button - damned if he does damned if he doesn't. Most teams are superior physically and better in the air than us.
But we are better than most teams when the ball is on the floor, so that's why we play the way we do, No idea why our fans are so keen to see Button kick it long.
Agree. Cannot understand why after over a year some people have still not worked out (a) that button is under orders from Jokanovic to play it short and (b) the reasons Jokanovic wants us to play like that. The ironic cheer today was embarrassing, shows how many idiots we have in the crowd
:plus one:
Just got back, driving out of Fulham onto the A4 is difficult at the moment I think the North End Road at West Ken. must still be closed.
Not too good a performance by us but they were tall, tough and physical. However we took three points which is the important thing.
Yes, the clean sheet is good news but they have only scored 5 goals away from home.
Why were Ream and McDonald not playing, injured or dropped.
Quote from: filham on November 25, 2017, 07:25:41 PM
Just got back, driving out of Fulham onto the A4 is difficult at the moment I think the North End Road at West Ken. must still be closed.
Not too good a performance by us but they were tall, tough and physical. However we took three points which is the important thing.
Yes, the clean sheet is good news but they have only scored 5 goals away from home.
Why were Ream and McDonald not playing, injured or dropped.
LOL, they certainly weren't dropped!!!
What do people think about the penalty? Just watched it on the sky website and think it is ridiculously soft.
Quote from: MrD1879 on November 25, 2017, 06:51:42 PM
Quote from: @jolslover on November 25, 2017, 06:46:40 PM
Quote from: The Old Count on November 25, 2017, 06:45:02 PM
Poor Button - damned if he does damned if he doesn't. Most teams are superior physically and better in the air than us.
But we are better than most teams when the ball is on the floor, so that's why we play the way we do, No idea why our fans are so keen to see Button kick it long.
I don't think that fans are keen for him to knock it long just not to play suicidal football. There was atleast three times that it wasn't on yet he still did it. He spent half the warm up hitting the diagonal to betts on the wing yet barely did it in the game
Just got back too and I agree completely. It's not about kicking it long but when there is absolutely no short pass on (except something suicidal), then he does need an alternative option. Ironically on two or three occasions he tried to pass it short but it came straight back and then he was forced into a hurried kick out. In those situations it would have been much better to have kicked with accuracy from the start.
Quote from: F(f)CUK on November 25, 2017, 07:30:31 PM
What do people think about the penalty? Just watched it on the sky website and think it is ridiculously soft.
From the JH stand it was a stonewall penalty. Fonte couldn't move forward as his shirt was obviously being held like a leash.
Quote from: Statto on November 25, 2017, 06:52:44 PM
Quote from: @jolslover on November 25, 2017, 06:46:40 PM
Quote from: The Old Count on November 25, 2017, 06:45:02 PM
Poor Button - damned if he does damned if he doesn't. Most teams are superior physically and better in the air than us.
But we are better than most teams when the ball is on the floor, so that's why we play the way we do, No idea why our fans are so keen to see Button kick it long.
Agree. Cannot understand why after over a year some people have still not worked out (a) that button is under orders from Jokanovic to play it short and (b) the reasons Jokanovic wants us to play like that. The ironic cheer today was embarrassing, shows how many idiots we have in the crowd
Sorry Statto but I cheered and I think from my past posts you may agree that i am no idiot. My reasoning is explained in my previous post.
Quote from: F(f)CUK on November 25, 2017, 07:30:31 PM
What do people think about the penalty? Just watched it on the sky website and think it is ridiculously soft.
Havent seen the replay but a decent view from the JH Stand. I thought it was a foul, could see the arm. So not soft in that sense. But why on earth foul the least threatening player on the pitch like that, makes no sense to me. Soft in that way.
For a game with only a penalty goal, it was ridiculously entertaining. Mulitiple Davids versus multiple Goliaths, with everyone sticking to their natural battle plan. We were all heart, plenty of fancy footwork, but hardly any common sense at all. Our approach to game management was "sod that let's try for another". McDonald probably wouldn't have stood for it, but Cairney's a different character. Well done lads.
Kalas was magnificent.
Bloody astonishing that some of our supporters handles the goal kicks as he does through his own choosing, he doesn't !
As others have alluded to he is following strict orders from Jokanovic , I was delighted for him on the 38th minute when he stuck a virtual two fingers up to Jokanovic and decided to kick it long, especially as it led to a chance,
Would matter if we had Shilton, Clemence, or Jennings in goal they would all have to follow the same instructions, so if you've got a problem with his distribution I suggest you take it up with Jokanovic.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on November 25, 2017, 06:33:44 PM
Winning London Derbies at the best of times is never easy. Especially with our recent home form.
So I am just grateful for three points at the moment, and not forgetting a clean sheet.
:plus one:
I'm just back, not much to report I suppose on another disappointing home performance (We need to get this sorted),too much to think we'd get goals today after Tuesday's 5.
Still a win is a win.
As for Button kicking it long,maybe we should do it a few more times as every team now know we fiddle it out from the back,its called element of surprise.Coyw
Before some of you get your panties in a twist I'm not saying we should play long ball game,just a surprise now and then.
Pleased with the three points. Not disappointed with the home performance. We did what we had to do. Clearly the better footballing team against a big, hard-working, reasonably well-organized Millwall. Interesting the comment from the Millwall supporter who would like them to play the way we do, rather than their long ball, throw it in the mix and hope for the best, style.
Could it have been better? Yes, of course it could. But we had no McDonald, and Johansen going off at half-time, (presumably injury) meant we had a make-shift midfield, which I thought did ok. And I felt (as very often) that it didn't quite work for us in their box, but the approach play wasn't too bad.
Find it strange that some have to see the glass three quarters empty, when it was more than half-full.
I thought Edun showed his class again when he came on really excited by him. Ojo was excellent (aside from not looking up when he ran the ball to the corner).
I would expect that there is leeway for players to decide what's positive and what's not when playing out for goal kick. To me Button doesn't have intelligence to decide when to play short and when to hit long. If you only do one thing the opposition will not have to consider our alternative attacking options. His decision making for me is not as positive as Bettinelli's such as coming for long passes into the area and gathering crosses, plus his communication doesn't appear strong (the cross that he appeared to call for and Kalas left - he mishandled). To me Button doesn't exude confidence to certainly the crowd and possibly the players.
if button isn't cute enough to decide when to go long short or wherever surely joka can assign a clued up defender to have a look and tell him what to do?
predictability is easily countered
so every now and then do something different to keep the oppo on their toes
even concede a throw in rugby union style deep into their half with everyone already pressing up once every 10 mins to shake it up
football isn't rocket science but surely if not button, our side has more than one or two budding oppenheimers
a big difference for me was obviously Sess 'based' at FB and not marauding further forward with freedom
and Fred not getting forward with his crossing.
Conclusion, not enough width and crosses like the SUtd game
Only saw it on FFCTV though
I love watching all these live games over here.
I have to juggle life and work but well worth it
Quote from: F(f)CUK on November 25, 2017, 07:30:31 PM
What do people think about the penalty? Just watched it on the sky website and think it is ridiculously soft.
I can see maybe another referee not giving it, but technically it looked a penalty where I was sitting. Lucky or not, I would rather be lucky than unlucky.
Quote from: F(f)CUK on November 25, 2017, 07:30:31 PM
What do people think about the penalty? Just watched it on the sky website and think it is ridiculously soft.
Apparently (so I am advised) Fonte had complained to the ref about being held on a previous occasion and so had "encouraged" the ref to keep an eye on contact on him. Clearly Fonte has made the most of it, but it looked as if the player had hold of him, and had he not, there was a chance Fonte would have got to the ball for a free header (which presumably was why the ref gave him a yellow card). But if you don't go down, refs just won't give them. Even when you do (eg Sessegnon against Derby) they still don't as different rules seem to apply in the penalty area to the rest of the pitch.
Quote from: Whitesideup on November 26, 2017, 09:54:27 AM
Quote from: F(f)CUK on November 25, 2017, 07:30:31 PM
What do people think about the penalty? Just watched it on the sky website and think it is ridiculously soft.
Apparently (so I am advised) Fonte had complained to the ref about being held on a previous occasion and so had "encouraged" the ref to keep an eye on contact on him. Clearly Fonte has made the most of it, but it looked as if the player had hold of him, and had he not, there was a chance Fonte would have got to the ball for a free header (which presumably was why the ref gave him a yellow card). But if you don't go down, refs just won't give them. Even when you do (eg Sessegnon against Derby) they still don't as different rules seem to apply in the penalty area to the rest of the pitch.
Agree with this and at the match it looked pretty certain to me but Was in the Hammy End. Looked at the highlights and difficult to see but still think it was. If you look at the highlights there was another penalty call which also looked like a good call but not given. Whatever it was it was not as soft as the one given against Ryan S against Burton.
Hardly any of their players appealed except the guy getting booked - they pretty much accepted it
Watched the Fonte pen incident. His right arm was grabbed stopping him going for a header for which he would have been unmarked. He was thus denied a goal scoring opportunity.
Soft one for me.
The problem with those sort of decisions is the massive inconsistentcy of how the refs enforce the law. Having watched the Leeds game before taking my seat there are three corners in a row where a Barnsley player almost tore a Leeds players shirt off his back yet the ref was 10 yards away and gave nothing
Quote from: Statto on November 26, 2017, 01:32:20 PM
No one has commented on Elliott elbowing Kalas in the face, about 5 yrds in front of the fourth official. looked a stone wall red to me. would surely have been a red if jokanovic and the rest of our bench had jumped up screaming like most other teams would
It was clear from the body language of their player that something fishy had happened. I sit quite near the fourth official but like him expect, I didn't see the actual incident.
Quote from: SP on November 26, 2017, 01:48:48 PM
Quote from: Statto on November 26, 2017, 01:32:20 PM
No one has commented on Elliott elbowing Kalas in the face, about 5 yrds in front of the fourth official. looked a stone wall red to me. would surely have been a red if jokanovic and the rest of our bench had jumped up screaming like most other teams would
It was clear from the body language of their player that something fishy had happened. I sit quite near the fourth official but like him expect, I didn't see the actual incident.
Didn't see it. Would have changed the game completely if he went off. Can this be retrospectively looked at?
