Wasted pre season...
And who was it said pre season doesn't matter. Nor does getting the players in early... ?
Rico not selected due to not fully understanding English.. Isn't that exactly what happened with Jozabed?
Glimpses of class, but you can see there's an awful lot of cohesion missing!!
Griping, griping... this is not a video game. Players get moved when they get moved. It's a complicated business. Please try and understand that a little button can't be pushed to make life so easy. It's a process, like everything else.
Even though we have lost our first two games from what I've seen there is nothing to worry about.No we won't win the title but will easily survive and for our first season back in the top flight that will more than suffice!!
Again I really don't see the lack of cohesion. I do question a couple of players. Chambers disappointed me last week and again this week. Far more than the much criticised Fabri. But it is far too early and had we signed players early we wouldn't have maybe got the quality that we did get.
We must also remember we have injury problems at the back.
Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on August 18, 2018, 05:07:50 PM
Griping, griping... this is not a video game. Players get moved when they get moved. It's a complicated business. Please try and understand that a little button can't be pushed to make life so easy. It's a process, like everything else.
Pointless response....
Quote from: David I on August 18, 2018, 05:27:12 PM
Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on August 18, 2018, 05:07:50 PM
Griping, griping... this is not a video game. Players get moved when they get moved. It's a complicated business. Please try and understand that a little button can't be pushed to make life so easy. It's a process, like everything else.
Pointless response....
No not pointless - but a mature response
Quote from: David I on August 18, 2018, 05:03:48 PM
And who was it said pre season doesn't matter.
Nobody ever
Quote from: HV71 on August 18, 2018, 05:30:01 PM
Quote from: David I on August 18, 2018, 05:27:12 PM
Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on August 18, 2018, 05:07:50 PM
Griping, griping... this is not a video game. Players get moved when they get moved. It's a complicated business. Please try and understand that a little button can't be pushed to make life so easy. It's a process, like everything else.
Pointless response....
No not pointless - but a mature response
:plus one: Transfers are increasingly complex.
Quote from: BedsFFC on August 18, 2018, 05:45:40 PM
Quote from: David I on August 18, 2018, 05:03:48 PM
And who was it said pre season doesn't matter.
Just go back through the silly season transfer thread and you'll find many!!
Nobody ever
Quote from: HV71 on August 18, 2018, 05:30:01 PM
Quote from: David I on August 18, 2018, 05:27:12 PM
Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on August 18, 2018, 05:07:50 PM
Griping, griping... this is not a video game. Players get moved when they get moved. It's a complicated business. Please try and understand that a little button can't be pushed to make life so easy. It's a process, like everything else.
Pointless response....
No not pointless - but a mature response
Great response... Some good points, .... Oh wait! Talks of buttons and a post with no content or solution.. 🙈🙈 WUMs - at least respond with comments of substance.
It'a accepted that the play off winners have less time than automaticaly promoted teams. That along with the World Cup made things extra difficult.
It is widely accepted that we had a good transfer window. For many on here , including myself, it was way above my expectations. Yes some of the signings were rather late on - but it is what it is - there were reasons as stated above. So we have lost two games ( one against a side that eventually finished eleventh and another against a potential top 4 side . We are work in progress- it will take time and that is the one thing we have been short of - but better that than a lack of investment or players lacking quality
It's still August, and there is another 36 League matches to go.
Burnley up next in the League, and they are a tough nut to crack. No easy matches, today was an education.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 18, 2018, 06:30:29 PM
It's still August, and there is another 36 League matches to go. D
Burnley up next in the League, and they are a tough nut to crack. No easy matches, today was an education.
I know that... Hence my comment glimpses of class...
The team needs to gel. We were unlucky against Palace and outclassed against Spuds. The lack of training time is an issue and in time player understanding will improve.
The point which most have missed is that a very large number on here claimed that pre season did not matter. IMO it does, and shows.
Quote from: David I on August 18, 2018, 06:07:41 PM
Quote from: BedsFFC on August 18, 2018, 05:45:40 PM
Quote from: David I on August 18, 2018, 05:03:48 PM
And who was it said pre season doesn't matter.
Just go back through the silly season transfer thread and you'll find many!!
Nobody ever
I think you'll find the annual argument is regarding pre-season results. There's been some crazy posts on here but I seriously doubt anyone has said that having a pre-season doesnt matter.
I think your post is just a classic knee jerk reaction after a loss.
Quote from: David I on August 18, 2018, 06:41:44 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 18, 2018, 06:30:29 PM
It's still August, and there is another 36 League matches to go. D
Burnley up next in the League, and they are a tough nut to crack. No easy matches, today was an education.
The point which most have missed is that a very large number on here claimed that pre season did not matter. IMO it does, and shows.
What do you mean, pre-season does not matter?
what. At all? Fitness, matches. WHat are you talking about?
This is a team in transition without it's two best defenders. It will take time but we competed with one of the leagues best for 75 minutes. If we're sitting bottom of the pile in 15 games time, then is the time to ask questions.
David, would you prefer to have the same squad as last season , and a marvellous pre-season, or the squad we have now? Ideal squad situations are rare for newly promoted teams. Our recruitment team have done well.
The problem with this line of thought is that in the main there is no incentive to get deals done early, by any of the parties (buying team, selling team, player/agent). It's game theory...
1) Buying teams at a minimum are saving a few weeks of substantial wages and agent fees. They may get to see additional pre-season/tournament play of their potential targets. They also run the risk of making inquiries to targets, but then settling on their 3rd/4th choice, when if they had waited longer, their first choice could have been theirs. The domino effect. This matters less at teams where money is essentially no object, but 99% of teams do not have that luxury.
2) Selling teams also get the advantage of saving players through pre-season to give them more info on whether players' prior form was illusory, as well as provide buffer for pre-season injuries, and being left desperate late. On the flip side, they get better fee terms if they are contacted by desperate teams late.
Most selling teams are also buying games teams, to replace the outgoing players, so 1) above also somewhat applies.
3) Players/agents want to wait to the last minute if possible, to allow for desperate teams to pay higher wages as part of the deals, as well as wait for more choice teams to come knocking. As a concrete example of this, our starting LB says hello. And in any event, if the club does poorly, the players can generally move on to another club, so there isn't a lot of impetus to leave money on the table in the name of squad cohesion.
Yes, some business can happen early. But that is at the edges. It is irrational for all parties to, as a rule, get things done early, despite what the supporters would prefer (and I would include myself in this; how I wish we'd have gotten everyone in by early July!).
I do agree that while pre-season _results_ are meaningless as a predictor for success, having as much of a pre-season together as possible is obviously beneficial. That all being said, I 100% believe that if we had got our business done early, we'd not have the class of player we have now. We'd look more cohesive, but also be in more inherent danger of getting relegated.
Pre-season was short for us, and there was the WC too.
Some of our top players were loanees, who went back to their clubs.
I don't see how the players we brought in - top quality signings and loans, could have been brought in much quicker - we just managed to get some over the line before the deadline, as it was.
I said that friendlies don't matter much, and I stick by that.
I think we have played well, considering all the new players, in both games chances have been missed, and decisions gone against us, that might have gone our way with a bit more luck -but time will tell.
One game at a time.
Just keep in mind that we are being built for the future.
Time to gel due to roster turnover is part of the process. Starting off slow is part of it and I almost wish we had one more game against top 6 opponent to get out of the way now.
Not too worried myself ,also we seem to start every season on the back foot ,so I've seen this all before so
Stress not!
The OP has a point, no matter what excuses about complexity we can derive for the benefit of the transfer system. Even SJ sums it up for us - our opponents have been playing together for three years not two and half weeks - and I do not believe for one minute he is using it as an excuse rather than as an explanation of what it takes to get players smoothly engaging in battle. This is about the numbers game and the probability index that asks 'what is the chance of seven newcomers gelling together to play top class opposition in a game of football after days rather than months and years?' The answer comes back highly 'highly improbable'. Is that the 'spur' (excuse the pun) for the Club to gain much more stability of players on staff in the future so that we can actually focus on just one or two requirements at a time and not a whole team load of newbies? I sincerely hope so.
For what it is worth, however, I haven't been disheartened by what I have seen so far. For sure we need to tighten up on a lot of fronts, not least ball retention, but there are signs we are moving in the right direction. We always knew it would take time. The question is 'how long'? I still think we are perhaps another three/four games (without new injuries worries) away from turning the corner, but football is such that we may get some welcome relief much earlier than that.
Quote from: BedsFFC on August 18, 2018, 05:45:40 PM
Quote from: David I on August 18, 2018, 05:03:48 PM
And who was it said pre season doesn't matter.
Nobody ever
That is totally incorrect. This was debated at length during the summer, I was strongly of the view that the lack of a meaningful pre-season would cost us points and was told by several posters that pre-season games are; meaningless and of no consequence.
Quote from: toshes mate on August 19, 2018, 07:42:30 AM
The OP has a point, no matter what excuses about complexity we can derive for the benefit of the transfer system. Even SJ sums it up for us - our opponents have been playing together for three years not two and half weeks - and I do not believe for one minute he is using it as an excuse rather than as an explanation of what it takes to get players smoothly engaging in battle. This is about the numbers game and the probability index that asks 'what is the chance of seven newcomers gelling together to play top class opposition in a game of football after days rather than months and years?' The answer comes back highly 'highly improbable'. Is that the 'spur' (excuse the pun) for the Club to gain much more stability of players on staff in the future so that we can actually focus on just one or two requirements at a time and not a whole team load of newbies? I sincerely hope so.
For what it is worth, however, I haven't been disheartened by what I have seen so far. For sure we need to tighten up on a lot of fronts, not least ball retention, but there are signs we are moving in the right direction. We always knew it would take time. The question is 'how long'? I still think we are perhaps another three/four games (without new injuries worries) away from turning the corner, but football is such that we may get some welcome relief much earlier than that.
That seems a very fair and reasoned response.
We all, in this and other posts, seem to agree that there are positive signs from the many acquisitions. Let's hope they gel quickly, we get points on the board & survive in this division this season
That means next summer we will have the nucleus of a very good squad that will require few additions to hopefully push on and do more than survive. I sight our first two opponents, and our next, as teams that have had few personnel changes & successfully compete in this division
Let's hope we have a quiet preseason next year. That will mean we have survived and Joka is working with a stable squad with no World Cup or Euro's as a distraction
Quote from: Twig on August 19, 2018, 08:54:17 AM
Quote from: BedsFFC on August 18, 2018, 05:45:40 PM
Quote from: David I on August 18, 2018, 05:03:48 PM
And who was it said pre season doesn't matter.
Nobody ever
That is totally incorrect. This was debated at length during the summer, I was strongly of the view that the lack of a meaningful pre-season would cost us points and was told by several posters that pre-season games are; meaningless and of no consequence.
+1
Opinions on the window from many on here seem binary - either it was the best window ever, perfect in every way, or it was terrible and Tony Khan should resign.
The reality is the cost and reputation of some signings showed great ambition (good) but the signings were still massively loaded towards the end of the window (bad).
If we were going to be so active, particularly when so many of our signings were from abroad, we should have been active in June and July, when we were still one of the less active clubs, rather than just on 9 August.
Signing 5 players on deadline day made it very exciting but with hindsight, it is a little bit ridiculous and there's a reason the average number of players signed by other PL clubs on that day was only 1.
Good points and bad points as with most things in life.
By the standards of any normal window, Mr. Icke, the new signings were brought in early. There's no bucking market forces which keep many players and their agents waiting till the last minute.
Quote from: Statto on August 19, 2018, 10:22:14 AM
Quote from: Twig on August 19, 2018, 08:54:17 AM
Quote from: BedsFFC on August 18, 2018, 05:45:40 PM
Quote from: David I on August 18, 2018, 05:03:48 PM
And who was it said pre season doesn't matter.
Nobody ever
That is totally incorrect. This was debated at length during the summer, I was strongly of the view that the lack of a meaningful pre-season would cost us points and was told by several posters that pre-season games are; meaningless and of no consequence.
+1
Opinions on the window from many on here seem binary - either it was the best window ever, perfect in every way, or it was terrible and Tony Khan should resign.
The reality is the cost and reputation of some signings showed great ambition (good) but the signings were still massively loaded towards the end of the window (bad).
If we were going to be so active, particularly when so many of our signings were from abroad, we should have been active in June and July, when we were still one of the less active clubs, rather than just on 9 August.
Signing 5 players on deadline day made it very exciting but with hindsight, it is a little bit ridiculous and there's a reason the average number of players signed by other PL clubs on that day was only 1.
Good points and bad points as with most things in life.
Who says we weren't "active"? No doubt we failed to bring in certain players, which is why there were so many brought in at the deadline.
Nobody argues that having most of your team bedded in before pre-season is NOT what you want. Obviously this is what everyone wants. It goes without saying. It just wasn't likely for Fulham, because of Fulham's ambition, and Fulham having only made it to the Premier League by being the playoff winner.
Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on August 19, 2018, 04:57:11 PM
Nobody argues that having most of your team bedded in before pre-season is NOT what you want. Obviously this is what everyone wants. It goes without saying. It just wasn't likely for Fulham, because of Fulham's ambition, and Fulham having only made it to the Premier League by being the playoff winner.
Hmm, not really sure I buy the play-off excuse. The club could have had (and actually, they told the FST the did indeed have) a list of PL targets prepared before the play-off final, in case we got promoted. It's not as if getting promoted came out of the blue and meant we had to spend all of June preparing a new list of targets.
To put some numbers on this, according to my calculations (and these were manual, so there may be small errors but I hope not) there were 91 transfers to the other 19 PL clubs this summer - 27 in June, 31 in July, and 33 in August. So a slight skew toward August but not massive.
We completed 0 transfers in June, 5 in July and 7 in August. So ours were much more skewed towards the end of the window than most other clubs'. Here's a graphical representation of that
(https://s8.postimg.cc/cw2pwi29x/Transfers_completed.png)
To put it another way, we were the joint LEAST active club in June, as one of nine clubs who signed no one. But in August (and indeed, over the window as a whole) we were by far the MOST active, ultimately signing 12 players when even the next most active team, West Ham, only signed 9.
To give a bit more context, the next most active clubs, West Ham, Brighton, Wolves and Huddersfield, each signed 5-7 players in June/July and only 1-3 each in August.
To retierate, I'm happy with the ambition we showed in the window overall but we are massive outliers in terms of our timing, so the OP has a point.
Quote from: Statto on August 19, 2018, 08:23:01 PM
Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on August 19, 2018, 04:57:11 PM
Nobody argues that having most of your team bedded in before pre-season is NOT what you want. Obviously this is what everyone wants. It goes without saying. It just wasn't likely for Fulham, because of Fulham's ambition, and Fulham having only made it to the Premier League by being the playoff winner.
Hmm, not really sure I buy the play-off excuse. The club could have had (and actually, they told the FST the did indeed have) a list of PL targets prepared before the play-off final, in case we got promoted. It's not as if getting promoted came out of the blue and meant we had to spend all of June preparing a new list of targets.
To put some numbers on this, according to my calculations (and these were manual, so there may be small errors but I hope not) there were 91 transfers to the other 19 PL clubs this summer - 27 in June, 31 in July, and 33 in August. So a slight skew toward August but not massive.
We completed 0 transfers in June, 5 in July and 7 in August. So ours were much more skewed towards the end of the window than most other clubs'. Here's a graphical representation of that
(https://s8.postimg.cc/cw2pwi29x/Transfers_completed.png)
To put it another way, we were the joint LEAST active club in June, as one of nine clubs who signed no one. But in August (and indeed, over the window as a whole) we were by far the MOST active, ultimately signing 12 players when even the next most active team, West Ham, only signed 9.
To give a bit more context, the next most active clubs, West Ham, Brighton, Wolves and Huddersfield, each signed 5-7 players in June/July and only 1-3 each in August.
To retierate, I'm happy with the ambition we showed in the window overall but we are massive outliers in terms of our timing, so the OP has a point.
I don't disagree with any of this, but none of this means our front office wasn't "active" in the transfer market the minute Fulham won the playoff. It could mean the front office failed to bring in players on their lists after trying to (Tony Khan has said as much). It could mean it took time for the board to sell Fulham's ambition and style of play to certain players. It's got to be difficult to sell yourself to players as the playoff winner, because are you going to go right back down. Mitrovic had to play in the World Cup. There are more variables involved than just whatever it is our front office wants to do, when they want to do it.
Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on August 19, 2018, 08:44:36 PM
I don't disagree with any of this, but none of this means our front office wasn't "active" in the transfer market the minute Fulham won the playoff. It could mean the front office failed to bring in players on their lists after trying to (Tony Khan has said as much). It could mean it took time for the board to sell Fulham's ambition and style of play to certain players. It's got to be difficult to sell yourself to players as the playoff winner, because are you going to go right back down. Mitrovic had to play in the World Cup. There are more variables involved than just whatever it is our front office wants to do, when they want to do it.
How much of that only applies to us? Are we the only club that got knocked by some of the players we wanted to sign? Are we the only club that signed players who'd played in the world cup? You make a big point of us being newly-promoted, but we shouldn't have been a substantially harder sell than the other 4 most active clubs I've just mentioned, West Ham, Brighton, Wolves and Huddersfield. And even to the extent we're less attractive than Arsenal for example, most of those clubs were probably going for even higher quality players, so still had the same problem. Indeed, the most ambitious of our signings, Seri, was the first one we got done. So again, not sure I buy this excuse.
This wouldn't have been a problem if we had a decent squad to build on. But with 6 loan players + Fredericks leaving, plus a couple of injuries/suspensions, we've been forced to use players that aren't even close to settled. I mean, 7 new players vs Palace and some of them arriving 2 days earlier...
They will improve. Hopefully not too late to avoid relegation.
The thing that worries me the most is the fact that the club is making the same mistake all over again: Too many loans. Even if we avoid relegation the squad will be torn to pieces next summer, requiring yet another last minute re-build and yet another poor start to the season.
Quote from: Twig on August 19, 2018, 08:54:17 AM
Quote from: BedsFFC on August 18, 2018, 05:45:40 PM
Quote from: David I on August 18, 2018, 05:03:48 PM
And who was it said pre season doesn't matter.
R
Nobody ever
That is totally incorrect. This was debated at length during the summer, I was strongly of the view that the lack of a meaningful pre-season would cost us points and was told by several posters that pre-season games are; meaningless and of no consequence.
Yes I remember those ill judged, naive and inexperienced remarks made by posters who have no understanding of the concept of Preparation, Organisation and Conditioning, as well as the importance of moulding players into a familiarised unit.
One of the best ways to accelerate that in practice is the emphasis on familiarity and the importance and awareness of valueing your team mates, and the principle of one for all and all for one.
This does not happen overnight, and it relies on the cooperation of all those involved.
You cannot just press a button, we are dealing with human beings.
If a team of individual players can master those core principles, to form a heart beat and a team spirit, into a fighting unit, then that in itself can be as good as a goal start.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 19, 2018, 11:42:23 PM
Quote from: Twig on August 19, 2018, 08:54:17 AM
Quote from: BedsFFC on August 18, 2018, 05:45:40 PM
Quote from: David I on August 18, 2018, 05:03:48 PM
And who was it said pre season doesn't matter.
R
Nobody ever
That is totally incorrect. This was debated at length during the summer, I was strongly of the view that the lack of a meaningful pre-season would cost us points and was told by several posters that pre-season games are; meaningless and of no consequence.
Yes I remember those ill judged, naive and inexperienced remarks made by posters who have no understanding of the concept of Preparation, Organisation and Conditioning, as well as the importance of moulding players into a familiarised unit.
One of the best ways to accelerate that in practice is the emphasis on familiarity and the importance and awareness of valueing your team mates, and the principle of one for all and all for one.
This does not happen overnight, and it relies on the cooperation of all those involved.
You cannot just press a button, we are dealing with human beings.
If a team of individual players can master those core principles, to form a heart beat and a team spirit, into a fighting unit, then that in itself can be as good as a goal start.
Would you mind finding me one poster who stated that having a period of training prior to our first league game was a waste of time?
As flowery as your explanation was, you really didn't need to explain the benefits of pre-season? Every club in every league in every country has done it forever. Even pub teams have a kickabout a couple of weeks before the first match. Even bloody qpr do a bit of fitness work
Quote from: BedsFFC on August 20, 2018, 12:13:03 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 19, 2018, 11:42:23 PM
Quote from: Twig on August 19, 2018, 08:54:17 AM
Quote from: BedsFFC on August 18, 2018, 05:45:40 PM
Quote from: David I on August 18, 2018, 05:03:48 PM
And who was it said pre season doesn't matter.
R
Nobody ever
That is totally incorrect. This was debated at length during the summer, I was strongly of the view that the lack of a meaningful pre-season would cost us points and was told by several posters that pre-season games are; meaningless and of no consequence.
Yes I remember those ill judged, naive and inexperienced remarks made by posters who have no understanding of the concept of Preparation, Organisation and Conditioning, as well as the importance of moulding players into a familiarised unit.
One of the best ways to accelerate that in practice is the emphasis on familiarity and the importance and awareness of valueing your team mates, and the principle of one for all and all for one.
This does not happen overnight, and it relies on the cooperation of all those involved.
You cannot just press a button, we are dealing with human beings.
If a team of individual players can master those core principles, to form a heart beat and a team spirit, into a fighting unit, then that in itself can be as good as a goal start.
Would you mind finding me one poster who stated that having a period of training prior to our first league game was a waste of time?
As flowery as your explanation was, you really didn't need to explain the benefits of pre-season? Every club in every league in every country has done it forever. Even pub teams have a kickabout a couple of weeks before the first match. Even bloody qpr do a bit of fitness work
I have neither a reason or a desire to adhere to your request to find you one poster, you want it you find it. They know who they are as I do. But that is not the point, the point is that if you fail to prepare, then prepare to fail.
Nevertheless in Fulhams case, they have enough quality to overcome the initial difficulties Fulham are finding due to something they may or may not have had no control over, due to circumstances beyond their control.
My point is that because of the lack of time we had to go through a rigid preparation process, and I am not putting the blame on anyone, just stating the difficulties of the fall out from having to catch up,
it is what it is, a fact of life. I am just stating the fact.
Then we may have to lose a few matches first and foremost before we start our unbeaten run.
I am prepared to wait.
Obviously clubs need pre-season training - to get fit after the summer break, often with new players and even new managers, who need to get used to each other, and this includes playing friendlies.
But, the result of the friendlies have never previously been seen as that important, because of players not wanting to risk injury, experimental line-ups, etc.
This concern with the importance friendly results seems quite a new thing, and the publicity given to them.
In Fulham's case, a number of new players, who will feature in the first team, weren't even here for our friendlies.
Pre-season training at clubs has traditionally been very hard, getting players back into shape ready for the campaign ahead, though now players tend to follow personalised training regimes even when on holiday, and follow dietary programmes, and can be penalised if they return from holiday grossly overweight or unfit, as some might n the past.
Also, the summer break is shorter than previously, especially for Fulham , playing in the Final at Wembley.
Anyway, I dont think anyone anyone here would say that pre-season isn't of great importance in preparation for a tough season, but that friendly results themselves aren't that important.
Personally, I don't think we did too badly in pre-season friendlies, considering, and some new players did get run outs with their new teammates.
Obviously, the more players can get used to playing togther the better, and no-one would argue that Fulham's case, of bringing a number of first team players in a week before the season's start, with some needing work permits, etc, isn't problematic.
But we have to accept it now, and get on with it, and hope we can overcome this less than ideal situation.
I think all Fulham fans think it's brilliant the way the owners have financed getting in all these top quality players, and the club'sefforts to get them in before the transfer window closed, and we know this will come good, but it doesn't happen overnight, but needs to be soner rather than later.
Imagine how people would have been moaning if we only had a couple of Championship quality players in , and were largely putting out the remnants of our winning team of last year, maybe with youngssters making up the numbers.
But I think things look very promising so far, considering all the new players.
COYW!!!!
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 20, 2018, 12:39:10 AM
Quote from: BedsFFC on August 20, 2018, 12:13:03 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 19, 2018, 11:42:23 PM
Quote from: Twig on August 19, 2018, 08:54:17 AM
Quote from: BedsFFC on August 18, 2018, 05:45:40 PM
Quote from: David I on August 18, 2018, 05:03:48 PM
And who was it said pre season doesn't matter.
R
Nobody ever
That is totally incorrect. This was debated at length during the summer, I was strongly of the view that the lack of a meaningful pre-season would cost us points and was told by several posters that pre-season games are; meaningless and of no consequence.
Yes I remember those ill judged, naive and inexperienced remarks made by posters who have no understanding of the concept of Preparation, Organisation and Conditioning, as well as the importance of moulding players into a familiarised unit.
One of the best ways to accelerate that in practice is the emphasis on familiarity and the importance and awareness of valueing your team mates, and the principle of one for all and all for one.
This does not happen overnight, and it relies on the cooperation of all those involved.
You cannot just press a button, we are dealing with human beings.
If a team of individual players can master those core principles, to form a heart beat and a team spirit, into a fighting unit, then that in itself can be as good as a goal start.
Would you mind finding me one poster who stated that having a period of training prior to our first league game was a waste of time?
As flowery as your explanation was, you really didn't need to explain the benefits of pre-season? Every club in every league in every country has done it forever. Even pub teams have a kickabout a couple of weeks before the first match. Even bloody qpr do a bit of fitness work
I have neither a reason or a desire to adhere to your request to find you one poster, you want it you find it.
Sorry, just assumed you had lot's of time on your hands
Quote from: S.F.Sorrow on August 19, 2018, 09:29:10 PM
This wouldn't have been a problem if we had a decent squad to build on.
This is where I believe the damage was really done and was the product of several 'bad' windows in succession when we could have been a little more ambitious in seeking out the 'right' players to fit the mould that SJ was developing. We also know there was an element of good fortune in the loan signing of Mitro. For sure the WC would have influenced the method by which approaches for players could be best arranged, but I believe we made life difficult for ourselves by persisting with a flawed recruitment regime. Who is to blame for that would need a public inquiry with evidence and it isn't ever going to happen. Some folks just never allow their dirty laundry to be exposed.
Think you have head in the clouds. We have all our business already done this year whereas most years we'd still be waiting a couple of more weeks.. whilst we need time to gel, the closing on the window before the season starts has arguably left us at a greater advantage than normal.
Clutching at straws. There's a huge emotional process quite a few people need to go through when transferring between clubs and even more so between cultures and countries.
We had a lot of players come in and all before the transfer window and did more business than most.
As I said your clutching at straws... even more so in a world cup year.
Quote from: BedsFFC on August 20, 2018, 07:41:18 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 20, 2018, 12:39:10 AM
Quote from: BedsFFC on August 20, 2018, 12:13:03 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 19, 2018, 11:42:23 PM
Quote from: Twig on August 19, 2018, 08:54:17 AM
Quote from: BedsFFC on August 18, 2018, 05:45:40 PM
Quote from: David I on August 18, 2018, 05:03:48 PM
And who was it said pre season doesn't matter.
R
Nobody ever
That is totally incorrect. This was debated at length during the summer, I was strongly of the view that the lack of a meaningful pre-season would cost us points and was told by several posters that pre-season games are; meaningless and of no consequence.
Yes I remember those ill judged, naive and inexperienced remarks made by posters who have no understanding of the concept of Preparation, Organisation and Conditioning, as well as the importance of moulding players into a familiarised unit.
One of the best ways to accelerate that in practice is the emphasis on familiarity and the importance and awareness of valueing your team mates, and the principle of one for all and all for one.
This does not happen overnight, and it relies on the cooperation of all those involved.
You cannot just press a button, we are dealing with human beings.
If a team of individual players can master those core principles, to form a heart beat and a team spirit, into a fighting unit, then that in itself can be as good as a goal start.
Would you mind finding me one poster who stated that having a period of training prior to our first league game was a waste of time?
As flowery as your explanation was, you really didn't need to explain the benefits of pre-season? Every club in every league in every country has done it forever. Even pub teams have a kickabout a couple of weeks before the first match. Even bloody qpr do a bit of fitness work
I have neither a reason or a desire to adhere to your request to find you one poster, you want it you find it.
Sorry, just assumed you had lot's of time on your hands
Very amusing, but no cigar, your assumption is incorrect.
I have a full time job, despite my age, fortunately for me I can multitask.
Another reason that I do not have time on my hands, is that I wear my watch on my wrist.
In fact I wear two watches, do not ask why, that's another story, and I haven't the time to explain. But you could say I am on double time. ⏱⏰🕰
I am just glad the window is not still open and everyone that was in before the 1st match of the season .
Imagine if the 5 that came in on the last day were still not in ...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: Riverside on August 20, 2018, 11:54:31 AM
I am just glad the window is not still open and everyone that was in before the 1st match of the season .
Imagine if the 5 that came in on the last day were still not in ...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Precisely, that would be a likely consequence. This year closing the window early suited us.
Quote from: Riverside on August 20, 2018, 11:54:31 AM
I am just glad the window is not still open and everyone that was in before the 1st match of the season .
Imagine if the 5 that came in on the last day were still not in ...
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That would be worrying, but they are in, and Jok has some very precious tools in the box now, and when we eventually overcome all obstacles, we could be a formidable outfit.
It is all very frustrating listening to the argument that we should have signed everybody early and had them fully trained and a first 11 ready to play well in time for the first game. But then really we should have had less loans last year and not needed a play off final and be promoted by last Christmas so we could plan ahead of time.
Reality is transfers, especially very ambitious transfers take time. Reality is pre season IS JUST A FITNESS EXERCISE. Yes players can go through routines but playing in a friendly is nothing like playing in the Prem. Players will need time but we could have not bothered with any new players and just replaced the many loans with players who knew our system. Result would have been worse but hey the players would have all known each other.
A bit of common sense and realism is needed. This is a good side but still will need time and will do well to survive in this league. If we do then next season will also be tough. It is the toughest league in the World. But saying we should have had everything sorted out early is simply unrealistic.
Quote from: Lighthouse on August 20, 2018, 12:20:44 PM
But saying we should have had everything sorted out early is simply unrealistic.
But it's not unrealistic to say we should have had 4 of our signings in by June and another 4 in July.
So for example Seri, MLM, Fabri and Schurrle here before the start of pre-season, getting all 6 friendlies with the existing lads. Then Bryan, Mitro and Chambers and one other ready for the second half of pre-season, getting 2-3 friendly games.
That wouldn't be unrealistic at all because that's what other teams have done.
Quote from: Statto on August 20, 2018, 12:51:27 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on August 20, 2018, 12:20:44 PM
But saying we should have had everything sorted out early is simply unrealistic.
But it's not unrealistic to say we should have had 4 of our signings in by June and another 4 in July.
So for example Seri, MLM, Fabri and Schurrle here before the start of pre-season, getting all 6 friendlies with the existing lads. Then Bryan, Mitro and Chambers and one other ready for the second half of pre-season, getting 2-3 friendly games.
That wouldn't be unrealistic at all because that's what other teams have done.
Mr Statto I do not wish to be rude but I suggest you offer yourself to be available when the next transfer window is open, it seems you will be able to do it with ease, having worked at Fulham for a good few years I have seen first hand how difficult and protracted negotiations can take, and still not get the players you want. I can assure you and others that it is far from always being Fulham's fault.
Quote from: alfie on August 20, 2018, 01:50:25 PM
Quote from: Statto on August 20, 2018, 12:51:27 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on August 20, 2018, 12:20:44 PM
But saying we should have had everything sorted out early is simply unrealistic.
But it's not unrealistic to say we should have had 4 of our signings in by June and another 4 in July.
So for example Seri, MLM, Fabri and Schurrle here before the start of pre-season, getting all 6 friendlies with the existing lads. Then Bryan, Mitro and Chambers and one other ready for the second half of pre-season, getting 2-3 friendly games.
That wouldn't be unrealistic at all because that's what other teams have done.
Mr Statto I do not wish to be rude but I suggest you offer yourself to be available when the next transfer window is open, it seems you will be able to do it with ease, having worked at Fulham for a good few years I have seen first hand how difficult and protracted negotiations can take, and still not get the players you want. I can assure you and others that it is far from always being Fulham's fault.
I think we all have our pet 'hates' or 'issues' we commnent on a lot. And this one is a subject that Statto will never let go of and until his dying day will always say Fulham should do their deals early and no excuse that they didnt. Even though over all the years of Chairman, CEO's, managers etc, we always left it late.
In fact the target was always about 8 players to come in, but a change of requiremnt and the availablity(or not) of a couple of players changed things over last few days.
Quote from: Statto on August 20, 2018, 12:51:27 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on August 20, 2018, 12:20:44 PM
But saying we should have had everything sorted out early is simply unrealistic.
But it's not unrealistic to say we should have had 4 of our signings in by June and another 4 in July.
So for example Seri, MLM, Fabri and Schurrle here before the start of pre-season, getting all 6 friendlies with the existing lads. Then Bryan, Mitro and Chambers and one other ready for the second half of pre-season, getting 2-3 friendly games.
That wouldn't be unrealistic at all because that's what other teams have done.
[/quot
If the targeted players weren't available until we managed to agree a deal then what else can any club do?? I suppose that you would have rather we brought in players clubs couldn't wait to get rid off instead of players the selling club actually rated and wanted to keep?
Donald Trump would love the approach some take to facts on this forum.
MJG, I apologise for pointing out the data above showing that our transfer activity was late compared to other clubs'. I won't mention it again. Let's all pretend it's just me banging on about a "pet hate" and not true. Sssssshhhh...
It's true we had a lot of late signings and also true that everyone would have preferred to have had them signed up sooner but I for one believe that we got better quality players by not rushing things. Clearly it takes time for the team to get to know each other and their play but we've only had 2 matches. Give them a bit more time.
049:gif
I know it's basic this comment, but we are where we are. Late signings or not I like the players we have signed and I think all posters are content with the players signed. In a ideal world we would have them in early but as I say we are where we are. COYW
Tardiness in some signings can be avoided; in others it cannot be. The problem with this thread is nobody commenting actually knows which is which except anecdotally and that depends on who said what to whom. I have scant confidence in our recruitment team to perform because history is against them and they do not seem to change one little bit. I also believe statistics show we have been more tardy under the Khans than we were before, but we all know how misleading statistics can be.
People expect to much.Selling clubs sell players to suit them not suit the buying club,that's business!
Quote from: Statto on August 20, 2018, 03:40:52 PM
Donald Trump would love the approach some take to facts on this forum.
MJG, I apologise for pointing out the data above showing that our transfer activity was late compared to other clubs'. I won't mention it again. Let's all pretend it's just me banging on about a "pet hate" and not true. Sssssshhhh...
Maybe it would be more accurate to say SOME other clubs - because it certainly wasn't the case for all or probably even most of them
Quote from: Roberty on August 20, 2018, 05:49:27 PM
Quote from: Statto on August 20, 2018, 03:40:52 PM
Donald Trump would love the approach some take to facts on this forum.
MJG, I apologise for pointing out the data above showing that our transfer activity was late compared to other clubs'. I won't mention it again. Let's all pretend it's just me banging on about a "pet hate" and not true. Sssssshhhh...
Maybe it would be more accurate to say SOME other clubs - because it certainly wasn't the case for all or probably even most of them
Not all, no, but most
MOST clubs started signing new players in June
MOST clubs made MOST of their signings in June and July, rather than August
MOST clubs didn't sign more than a couple of players in August
Are we absolutely the worst for lateness? No, that award probably goes to Everton in fairness. Palace, Burnley and Newcastle also did a high proportion of their business late on. But we were worse than most, and worse than average so for me, going back to the OP, there's a legitimate criticism there.
As I said, I accept it has to be balanced against the quality of signings, which was good. Anyway I think this debate has been milked now.
And yet you still insist on putting the blame on FFC without knowing a single fact, facts about what happened in past windows are not relevant simply because they are past.
Quote from: alfie on August 20, 2018, 07:12:39 PM
And yet you still insist on putting the blame on FFC without knowing a single fact, facts about what happened in past windows are not relevant simply because they are past.
Think you need to be clearer when you post about who you're talking to mate
Maybe start the post with 'Dear Roberty...' or something
I'm sure you're not talking to me because everything I've said on this thread has been factual, so you literally couldn't be more wrong
Whichever of the other posters it is that you're talking to, I'll leave it to them to reply to you directly
Yes, I wish we had got everybody on board earlier; but we didn't. Just happy with the players we have and the games so far have shown glimpses of who we will become. I have no trepidation in thinking top half this year, then onward & upward with a more "settled" team. These are truly exciting times and to think last year I was praying for a top half finish. Never in my wildest dreams did I think we'd be where we are today.
Quote from: Statto on August 20, 2018, 07:23:49 PM
Quote from: alfie on August 20, 2018, 07:12:39 PM
And yet you still insist on putting the blame on FFC without knowing a single fact, facts about what happened in past windows are not relevant simply because they are past.
Think you need to be clearer when you post about who you're talking to mate
Maybe start the post with 'Dear Roberty...' or something
I'm sure you're not talking to me because everything I've said on this thread has been factual, so you literally couldn't be more wrong
Whichever of the other posters it is that you're talking to, I'll leave it to them to reply to you directly
I was actually referring to this last transfer period, not previous ones so I offer My apologies I have obviously got it completely wrong and you do know how these transfer negotiations took place.
Quote from: hovewhite on August 20, 2018, 05:36:30 PM
People expect to much.Selling clubs sell players to suit them not suit the buying club,that's business!
:54:
Quote from: KJS on August 20, 2018, 09:17:16 PM
Quote from: hovewhite on August 20, 2018, 05:36:30 PM
People expect to much.Selling clubs sell players to suit them not suit the buying club,that's business!
:54:
Many would have us believe it's just a matter of "swooping".
Quote from: Holders on August 21, 2018, 08:53:24 AM
Quote from: KJS on August 20, 2018, 09:17:16 PM
Quote from: hovewhite on August 20, 2018, 05:36:30 PM
People expect to much.Selling clubs sell players to suit them not suit the buying club,that's business!
:54:
Many would have us believe it's just a matter of "swooping".
And, sometimes, the conditions of sale are extraordinary.
Quote from: Statto on August 20, 2018, 07:05:14 PM
Quote from: Roberty on August 20, 2018, 05:49:27 PM
Maybe it would be more accurate to say SOME other clubs - because it certainly wasn't the case for all or probably even most of them
Not all, no, but most
MOST clubs started signing new players in June
MOST clubs made MOST of their signings in June and July, rather than August
MOST clubs didn't sign more than a couple of players in August
Are we absolutely the worst for lateness? No, that award probably goes to Everton in fairness. Palace, Burnley and Newcastle also did a high proportion of their business late on. But we were worse than most, and worse than average so for me, going back to the OP, there's a legitimate criticism there.
As I said, I accept it has to be balanced against the quality of signings, which was good. Anyway I think this debate has been milked now.
Just most in June - 11 of the 20 PL clubs brought or loaned players in June
Not true - June and July only 10 PL clubs brought or loaned more players than they did in August
Only 5 clubs didn't buy or loan anyone in August, 6 had two signings and 4 had three or more
The thing that we don't know id how many players turned down the opportunity of joining us or how many clubs refused to sell their players
In any event it could have been worse - in previous years, the transfer window was open until the end of the month and we've lost star players after the season had started
Quote from: Roberty on August 21, 2018, 03:24:58 PM
Not true - June and July only 10 PL clubs brought or loaned more players than they did in August
If there are 19 other clubs (exc Fulham) then 10 would be MOST of them.
But in any case it was more than 10 according to my numbers. I think I counted about 15.
Please list your 10. Then we can look at the approx 5 extra I have, and see who's correct.
Quote from: Statto on August 21, 2018, 04:06:06 PM
Quote from: Roberty on August 21, 2018, 03:24:58 PM
Not true - June and July only 10 PL clubs brought or loaned more players than they did in August
If there are 19 other clubs (exc Fulham) then 10 would be MOST of them.
But in any case it was more than 10 according to my numbers. I think I counted about 15.
Please list your 10. Then we can look at the approx 5 extra I have, and see who's correct.
Errrr - your clutching at straws - we're in the Premier League - in case you missed it, we won the play-off at Wembley
Your numbers always support your facts - so what 5 clubs do you have on your list?
Spurs didn't sign any and I agree that we signed more, so who are the 3 clubs out of 18 who signed less in June and July than is August?
I'll give you Everton and Burnley - so just one to find.
Quote from: Roberty on August 21, 2018, 06:27:29 PM
Quote from: Statto on August 21, 2018, 04:06:06 PM
Quote from: Roberty on August 21, 2018, 03:24:58 PM
Not true - June and July only 10 PL clubs brought or loaned more players than they did in August
If there are 19 other clubs (exc Fulham) then 10 would be MOST of them.
But in any case it was more than 10 according to my numbers. I think I counted about 15.
Please list your 10. Then we can look at the approx 5 extra I have, and see who's correct.
Errrr - your clutching at straws - we're in the Premier League - in case you missed it, we won the play-off at Wembley
Your numbers always support your facts - so what 5 clubs do you have on your list?
Spurs didn't sign any and I agree that we signed more, so who are the 3 clubs out of 18 who signed less in June and July than is August?
I'll give you Everton and Burnley - so just one to find.
sorry mate you're totally contradicting yourself now, you seem to be agreeing with me after all
but just for the sake of clarity i made it 5 that signed more in august than in june/july, Fulham, Everton, Burnley, Newcastle and Palace
Look at his posted name: 'Statto'. Don't fight it. Getting bored now.
'Players need time to gel'"........ And they need time to hairspray and generaly groom.
Schurrle only came up at the last minute - and he said FFC were the first to go in for him - does that mean he wasn't on he original scouted list ? Last minute addition ? Someone else dropped out ?
All seems a bit last minute panic doesn't it ?
Quote from: Baszab on August 21, 2018, 08:22:09 PM
Schurrle only came up at the last minute - and he said FFC were the first to go in for him - does that mean he wasn't on he original scouted list ? Last minute addition ? Someone else dropped out ?
All seems a bit last minute panic doesn't it ?
The club approached him in June but his club wouldn't agree to any deal until they arranged his replacement which took until August!
I had a discussion with Statto earlier that got a bit unnecessary, and to be honest it really does not matter because what happened happened, this thread could go on for pages and pages and it won't change a thing. So for me just going to go with what happens, whatever that entails.
