Shearer on Christie tonight gave him a bit of a mauling on MOTD2.
Analysis was unfortunately spot on
The look on Christie's face in the first half (closest to the cameras) said it all to me. Tired and beaten. Arsenal put on a clinic today. Fosu-Mensah needs to come back soon because there's no way Christie can cover the whole field end to end. They toasted him all game long and it wasn't nice to see for him or me.
Bad performance agreed,dint need to watch a failed manager to tell me what I knew already and having lived through it I didn't want to watch it again.
Watched it again. His performance is being blown out of proportion. Had some key interceptions and made up space for when Anguissa would lose the ball 4x. No time to be going against our own players again, and as always.
We were playing a high line,and was obviously playing to the managers orders to get forward all the time.
It did look bad on MOTD,surprising that Slava didn't have a word about it early on telling him he has to defend as well.
Wasn't the only one being caught out though.
Yeah, crucify him on TV for viewers' titillation - great for the confidence of our only available right back.
Thanks Shearer.
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on October 08, 2018, 05:47:29 AM
We were playing a high line,and was obviously playing to the managers orders to get forward all the time.
It did look bad on MOTD,surprising that Slava didn't have a word about it early on telling him he has to defend as well.
Wasn't the only one being caught out though.
Indeed, a high line that was preset to have a RWB stay advanced as much as possible, with the two midfielders in Seri and Zambo to drop back as deep as possible. This is how we kept our width for 30 minutes of the match.
The 3-back was a brave choice, and I think anyone could have been a scapegoat with that much possible exposure. Christie was not required to drop back as deep as people think in this 3-back formation. He chose to drop out of necessity because Zambo or Seri did not control the ball in the advanced midfield (near center circle).
People also love to show Christie being nutmegged by Iwobi, but some forget that Ream was nutmegged earlier by him as well.
Not saying Christie didn't have a poor performance, to his standards, but he's definitely much better than that - we all are. I think we should have stuck with 3-back formation after conceding the 2nd goal, instead of going to a heavily compressed 4-3-3, which was just begging for us to get caught in transition.
Quote from: Matt10 on October 08, 2018, 06:14:13 AM
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on October 08, 2018, 05:47:29 AM
We were playing a high line,and was obviously playing to the managers orders to get forward all the time.
It did look bad on MOTD,surprising that Slava didn't have a word about it early on telling him he has to defend as well.
Wasn't the only one being caught out though.
Indeed, a high line that was preset to have a RWB stay advanced as much as possible, with the two midfielders in Seri and Zambo to drop back as deep as possible. This is how we kept our width for 30 minutes of the match.
The 3-back was a brave choice, and I think anyone could have been a scapegoat with that much possible exposure. Christie was not required to drop back as deep as people think in this 3-back formation. He chose to drop out of necessity because Zambo or Seri did not control the ball in the advanced midfield (near center circle).
People also love to show Christie being nutmegged by Iwobi, but some forget that Ream was nutmegged earlier by him as well.
Not saying Christie didn't have a poor performance, to his standards, but he's definitely much better than that - we all are. I think we should have stuck with 3-back formation after conceding the 2nd goal, instead of going to a heavily compressed 4-3-3, which was just begging for us to get caught in transition.
Agree with that, the back 3 was better until ream went off, surprised didn't bring Mawson on, but that's why he's the boss.
Let's not forget that Arsenal are VERY good team, and becoming better under a new coach.
He played awful, my seat is in Riverside block T, lower row and I was pretty close to the 'Christie' action. He just does not read the game well, poor positioning throughout the game. We were lucky that Iwobi was not using the space given to him effectively. If that would have been Ozil in form it could have been easily 1-3 at HT. But most shocking to me is that he has no fighting spirit, not even in the 1st half !!!!! No urgency at all. I read his last Friday's interview in the Evening Standard and he was surprised but not getting enough game time, since he felt he did well so far this season ???? Biggest problem is that he makes Odoi overcomensate and giving up space in the middle .....
on the left I think Sess did much better.
He's extremely poor going forward and his positional play is very poor. May be harsh but he isn't good enough for this league. Sess played the wing back role perfectly where Christie was caught out of postion time and time again. When he did get forward he made one decent cross all game that Kamara should have buried.
What surprised me even more is that he stayed on the pitch for the full game yet Ream (who was taken off for tacitical reasons) made way.
Quote from: Southcoastffc on October 08, 2018, 07:46:49 AM
Let's not forget that Arsenal are VERY good team, and becoming better under a new coach.
We cant keep coming up with these excuses all the time against the top 6 sides...All this let's settle for 3-0 and move on.With this attitude we will never be able to beat any of them.
We have to get our own house in order regardless who we are playing..Coyw.
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on October 08, 2018, 08:43:54 AM
Quote from: Southcoastffc on October 08, 2018, 07:46:49 AM
Let's not forget that Arsenal are VERY good team, and becoming better under a new coach.
We cant keep coming up with these excuses all the time against the top 6 sides...All this let's settle for 3-0 and move on.With this attitude we will never be able to beat any of them.
We have to get our own house in order regardless who we are playing..Coyw.
Yeah I'd agree if it was 2-0 or 3-1, not 5-1. 3-0 against Everton was far from acceptable either
I'd maul Christie myself if I see him in the street, he is not a footballer he is a fraud!! Id rather see Odio at RB than him!!
It has taken enough posts for someone to get round to it but fitness permitting Odoi should be at RB with Ream and Mawson in the centre.
It is all very well for MOD to maul us to pieces but at no time was any mention of the injuries that have been suffered in our defence.
We were very lucky last season and are paying for it this season.
Lastly - A full statement on why Cairney is not playing is required.
Quote from: Dodgin on October 07, 2018, 11:33:51 PM
Shearer on Christie tonight gave him a bit of a mauling on MOTD2.
So did Arsenal.
Not a good idea to single out one player for such criticism. As mentioned by another poster it will do nothing for his confidence.
I saw Betts shouting and waving to get back in position but he took no notice
Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
When you are given instructions about the formation and individual responsibilities every players has to convert that into in game execution. Arsenal attacked our right flank from the start targeting a perceived weakness. It worked a handful of times in the first half because we lost the ball cheaply further up the pitch and were unable to cover the gaps. Christie fell a long way short of PL requirements but he was by no means alone in a first half we actually merited being level or better at its conclusion. I believed we would wake up in the second half with the right kind of adjustments during the break but instead we were taken apart so very easily early on. That has happened far too often before and leads me to conclude we lack leadership on the pitch.
So Christie was our back up RB in the championship and people now expect him to cope in the prem?
It isn't his fault, nor the managers that we failed to recruit well defensively.
Wing back is always a thankless job for a player. Expected to be in two places at one.... "Why isn't he up supporting.... Why isn't he back supporting"
Sess was missing a couple of times but gets forgiven, Christie not so much.
My biggest moan about Christie is he's fallen into the trap of not crossing earlier enough and cutting back or inside. There were times, especially first half when I was looking right across the pitch at him and he had times to hit it into the box and stopped. Now is that just him or instructions I suspect we will never know.
At times Christie has looked good, but yesterday he didn't, and as someone else said, he had zero cover or help for last half an hour.
Quote from: snarks on October 08, 2018, 07:45:34 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on October 08, 2018, 06:14:13 AM
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on October 08, 2018, 05:47:29 AM
We were playing a high line,and was obviously playing to the managers orders to get forward all the time.
It did look bad on MOTD,surprising that Slava didn't have a word about it early on telling him he has to defend as well.
Wasn't the only one being caught out though.
Indeed, a high line that was preset to have a RWB stay advanced as much as possible, with the two midfielders in Seri and Zambo to drop back as deep as possible. This is how we kept our width for 30 minutes of the match.
The 3-back was a brave choice, and I think anyone could have been a scapegoat with that much possible exposure. Christie was not required to drop back as deep as people think in this 3-back formation. He chose to drop out of necessity because Zambo or Seri did not control the ball in the advanced midfield (near center circle).
People also love to show Christie being nutmegged by Iwobi, but some forget that Ream was nutmegged earlier by him as well.
Not saying Christie didn't have a poor performance, to his standards, but he's definitely much better than that - we all are. I think we should have stuck with 3-back formation after conceding the 2nd goal, instead of going to a heavily compressed 4-3-3, which was just begging for us to get caught in transition.
Agree with that, the back 3 was better until ream went off, surprised didn't bring Mawson on, but that's why he's the boss.
I was there and have been a bit puzzled by just how much stick Christie has received. Yes he made mistakes but so did others. He kept going in the second half of horror getting forward and putting in crosses. In fact he was probably our best line of supply for much of the second half. I guess everyone needs a scapegoat?
Quote from: Chutney on October 08, 2018, 10:41:07 AM
So Christie was our back up RB in the championship and people now expect him to cope in the prem?
It isn't his fault, nor the managers that we failed to recruit well defensively.
We did, it's bad luck that TFM is injured.
Actually felt sorry for Christie yesterday, he was absolutely torn apart by Arsenal's pace. Clearly out of his depth and is/was never Premier League quality, let alone barely Championship top half. Surprised that no one has floated the idea of bringing in Chambers at RB in future games... yes he's been mixed at CB but surely would strengthen us defensively at RB?
Shearer wasn't just being critical of Christie , he was making the point that tactically our defense is there to be split wide open and that this can be done so easily with a team that have the skills that Arsenal have.
Jocanovic has to take the can back I am afraid.
Quote from: Twig on October 08, 2018, 10:51:49 AM
Quote from: snarks on October 08, 2018, 07:45:34 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on October 08, 2018, 06:14:13 AM
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on October 08, 2018, 05:47:29 AM
We were playing a high line,and was obviously playing to the managers orders to get forward all the time.
It did look bad on MOTD,surprising that Slava didn't have a word about it early on telling him he has to defend as well.
Wasn't the only one being caught out though.
Indeed, a high line that was preset to have a RWB stay advanced as much as possible, with the two midfielders in Seri and Zambo to drop back as deep as possible. This is how we kept our width for 30 minutes of the match.
The 3-back was a brave choice, and I think anyone could have been a scapegoat with that much possible exposure. Christie was not required to drop back as deep as people think in this 3-back formation. He chose to drop out of necessity because Zambo or Seri did not control the ball in the advanced midfield (near center circle).
People also love to show Christie being nutmegged by Iwobi, but some forget that Ream was nutmegged earlier by him as well.
Not saying Christie didn't have a poor performance, to his standards, but he's definitely much better than that - we all are. I think we should have stuck with 3-back formation after conceding the 2nd goal, instead of going to a heavily compressed 4-3-3, which was just begging for us to get caught in transition.
Agree with that, the back 3 was better until ream went off, surprised didn't bring Mawson on, but that's why he's the boss.
I was there and have been a bit puzzled by just how much stick Christie has received. Yes he made mistakes but so did others. He kept going in the second half of horror getting forward and putting in crosses. In fact he was probably our best line of supply for much of the second half. I guess everyone needs a scapegoat?
Thank you Twigg, I thought I was missing something but like you I was there and thought Christie put a shift in.
He had little or no cover from Zambo when he pushed forward, but he was our only real outlet up front and was always making himself available.
So I'm going to point the finger at Zambo not Christie. Zambo is casual, technically inept, his ball retention is shockingly poor and at times he's like Bambie.....all legs and falling overhimself.
If he had put as much energy into the game as Christie, then we might of seen a different result.
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on October 08, 2018, 11:22:25 AM
Quote from: Chutney on October 08, 2018, 10:41:07 AM
So Christie was our back up RB in the championship and people now expect him to cope in the prem?
It isn't his fault, nor the managers that we failed to recruit well defensively.
We did, it's bad luck that TFM is injured.
I think its pretty clear that we didn't when a couple of injuries sees us starting a player who was a back up in the division below.
Quote from: Chutney on October 08, 2018, 11:50:31 AM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on October 08, 2018, 11:22:25 AM
Quote from: Chutney on October 08, 2018, 10:41:07 AM
So Christie was our back up RB in the championship and people now expect him to cope in the prem?
It isn't his fault, nor the managers that we failed to recruit well defensively.
We did, it's bad luck that TFM is injured.
I think its pretty clear that we didn't when a couple of injuries sees us starting a player who was a back up in the division below.
You honestly believe we should've improved on our back up players? You're expecting way too much if so.
Quote from: MJG on October 08, 2018, 10:50:27 AM
Wing back is always a thankless job for a player. Expected to be in two places at one.... "Why isn't he up supporting.... Why isn't he back supporting"
Sess was missing a couple of times but gets forgiven, Christie not so much.
My biggest moan about Christie is he's fallen into the trap of not crossing earlier enough and cutting back or inside. There were times, especially first half when I was looking right across the pitch at him and he had times to hit it into the box and stopped. Now is that just him or instructions I suspect we will never know.
At times Christie has looked good, but yesterday he didn't, and as someone else said, he had zero cover or help for last half an hour.
Well said. I think he and Vietto worked well together, and there were some dangerous crosses, but not enough. I personally think that the mentality of "should I stay, or should I go" when Zambo has the ball can be utterly conflicting. He lost the ball 4x in the first half alone, and Christie was upfield. In addition, he was wide open on many occasions, when the ball was at the top of the box, but not found.
It's hard to comment on the future of who and what, because honestly I have no idea what the coach is going to be doing anymore. The formation surprised me and so did the selection as a result.
I'm done with this mentality of "not good enough for the PL". It's cost us £100M, 10 new players, with a spot near the bottom of the table.
Quote from: Matt10 on October 08, 2018, 11:54:19 AM
Quote from: MJG on October 08, 2018, 10:50:27 AM
Wing back is always a thankless job for a player. Expected to be in two places at one.... "Why isn't he up supporting.... Why isn't he back supporting"
Sess was missing a couple of times but gets forgiven, Christie not so much.
My biggest moan about Christie is he's fallen into the trap of not crossing earlier enough and cutting back or inside. There were times, especially first half when I was looking right across the pitch at him and he had times to hit it into the box and stopped. Now is that just him or instructions I suspect we will never know.
At times Christie has looked good, but yesterday he didn't, and as someone else said, he had zero cover or help for last half an hour.
Well said. I think he and Vietto worked well together, and there were some dangerous crosses, but not enough. I personally think that the mentality of "should I stay, or should I go" when Zambo has the ball can be utterly conflicting. He lost the ball 4x in the first half alone, and Christie was upfield. In addition, he was wide open on many occasions, when the ball was at the top of the box, but not found.
It's hard to comment on the future of who and what, because honestly I have no idea what the coach is going to be doing anymore. The formation surprised me and so did the selection as a result.
I'm done with this mentality of "not good enough for the PL". It's cost us £100M, 10 new players, with a spot near the bottom of the table.
the thing is spending £100m was needed as we are playing catchup on everyone else. If you use some sites that puts us in that 13-16 kind of area on value of the squad. I've said I think we will end up 14th and I'll stick with that for the time being, but most importantly it's just about being 17th come end of season. We have good players, just not much of a team atm.
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on October 08, 2018, 11:54:05 AM
Quote from: Chutney on October 08, 2018, 11:50:31 AM
Quote from: Facts Not Fiction on October 08, 2018, 11:22:25 AM
Quote from: Chutney on October 08, 2018, 10:41:07 AM
So Christie was our back up RB in the championship and people now expect him to cope in the prem?
It isn't his fault, nor the managers that we failed to recruit well defensively.
We did, it's bad luck that TFM is injured.
I think its pretty clear that we didn't when a couple of injuries sees us starting a player who was a back up in the division below.
You honestly believe we should've improved on our back up players? You're expecting way too much if so.
You need to try and improve everywhere you can when you hit the prem, there is a huge jump in quality from the championship to the prem so unless you're wolves and can put together a premiership team while still being in the championship, you will struggle without trying to improve wherever possible, yes even the back ups.
A player that struggled to offer anything for us in the championship isn't good enough to provide cover for us in the premiership, that just seems like logic.
TFM was back up to Bissaka eventually at Crystal Palace and if we're claiming he's a quality signing that has improved our defence then I'm genuinely worried. TFM is a decent back up for a prem level side and also versatile enough to cover multiple positions, a good option, but nothing more.
Still early days though.
We shouldn't give up at this point of the season, and I certainly don't expect manager or players to, after quite a tough re-introduction to the Prem, with new players and injuries too.
I feel Slavisa is astute and determined enough to sort it out, and we do have high quality players, who must surely be eager to show what they're really made of, and get Fulham up the table.
As for Christie - I feel he is decent, but maybe lacks confidence, being thrown in the deep end, and the recent focus on his faults won't help this, but he is a pro....
Quote from: Matt10 on October 08, 2018, 06:14:13 AM
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on October 08, 2018, 05:47:29 AM
We were playing a high line,and was obviously playing to the managers orders to get forward all the time.
It did look bad on MOTD,surprising that Slava didn't have a word about it early on telling him he has to defend as well.
Wasn't the only one being caught out though.
Indeed, a high line that was preset to have a RWB stay advanced as much as possible, with the two midfielders in Seri and Zambo to drop back as deep as possible. This is how we kept our width for 30 minutes of the match.
The 3-back was a brave choice, and I think anyone could have been a scapegoat with that much possible exposure. Christie was not required to drop back as deep as people think in this 3-back formation. He chose to drop out of necessity because Zambo or Seri did not control the ball in the advanced midfield (near center circle).
People also love to show Christie being nutmegged by Iwobi, but some forget that Ream was nutmegged earlier by him as well.
Not saying Christie didn't have a poor performance, to his standards, but he's definitely much better than that - we all are. I think we should have stuck with 3-back formation after conceding the 2nd goal, instead of going to a heavily compressed 4-3-3, which was just begging for us to get caught in transition.
Thank You. That's a great comment. I remember hearing something about the 3-back system and its weakness being the space behind the wingbacks. Didn't know enough about it to comment. Thanks for knowing something and saying it.
Quote from: MrD1879 on October 08, 2018, 08:02:57 AM
He's extremely poor going forward and his positional play is very poor. May be harsh but he isn't good enough for this league. Sess played the wing back role perfectly where Christie was caught out of postion time and time again. When he did get forward he made one decent cross all game that Kamara should have buried.
What surprised me even more is that he stayed on the pitch for the full game yet Ream (who was taken off for tacitical reasons) made way.
Might have been the the case that he was asked to favour a more attacking approach. Given that he wasn't substituted, I suspect that it may have been so. Not sure why Shearer felt the need to pinpoint him. The whole defensive was poor.
Shearer always says (in effect) The Good Team were Good, and the Bad Teams were Bad ...
Poor pundit...
Go back and watch Arsenal's first goal and Christie's "effort" on the play, and go from there. It was appalling. And that's when the match was 0-0.
Maybe he just can't be played as a wingback, but he was awful yesterday. Never putting in the shift to get back defensively, and utterly wasteful going forward save for the one cross that Kamara missed with his head entirely.
I thought Odoi could play as a full back.
Quote from: Chutney on October 08, 2018, 12:03:47 PM
TFM was back up to Bissaka eventually at Crystal Palace and if we're claiming he's a quality signing that has improved our defence then I'm genuinely worried. TFM is a decent back up for a prem level side and also versatile enough to cover multiple positions, a good option, but nothing more.
Hold up. I get your point that the team should have gotten a PROVEN quality premiere league defender...someone in their mid twenties...but don't go slagging off a very talented 20 year old prospect that was playing good defense against Tottenham's first team when he was 17.
Timothy Fosu Mensah is a good talent. People talk about wishing Anguissa would show more grit and drive...look less asleep and be smart on the ball.
Timothy would be a better Anguissa given the time.
JOSE MOURINHO is why Timothy wasn't getting playing time (https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/transfer-news/man-utd-transfer-news-mensah-15011887) at United.
His being a loan player was probably why he didn't get more minutes with CP...well, and his manager changed.
At one point Ryan Sessegnon was a quality utility player...but his talent shown through. As a person whose watched almost every United game over the past 4 years, I'm telling you Timothy has that same potential...if he can stay healthy.
QuoteCity winger Leroy Sane had a hard time getting past the 20-year-old and claimed he was the toughest opponent he had faced last season, adding: "I have played against him twice this season, and even last season, he had me really well under control."
Quote from: snarks on October 08, 2018, 07:45:34 AM
Quote from: Matt10 on October 08, 2018, 06:14:13 AM
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on October 08, 2018, 05:47:29 AM
We were playing a high line,and was obviously playing to the managers orders to get forward all the time.
It did look bad on MOTD,surprising that Slava didn't have a word about it early on telling him he has to defend as well.
Wasn't the only one being caught out though.
Indeed, a high line that was preset to have a RWB stay advanced as much as possible, with the two midfielders in Seri and Zambo to drop back as deep as possible. This is how we kept our width for 30 minutes of the match.
The 3-back was a brave choice, and I think anyone could have been a scapegoat with that much possible exposure. Christie was not required to drop back as deep as people think in this 3-back formation. He chose to drop out of necessity because Zambo or Seri did not control the ball in the advanced midfield (near center circle).
People also love to show Christie being nutmegged by Iwobi, but some forget that Ream was nutmegged earlier by him as well.
Not saying Christie didn't have a poor performance, to his standards, but he's definitely much better than that - we all are. I think we should have stuck with 3-back formation after conceding the 2nd goal, instead of going to a heavily compressed 4-3-3, which was just begging for us to get caught in transition.
Agree with that, the back 3 was better until ream went off, surprised didn't bring Mawson on, but that's why he's the boss.
I just watched the game a second time and have to say you're right. When Ream went off, you could see the difference.
I don't take any notice of the pundits and I hope the players don't either. I don't remember shearer being a good player against quality defences....
Quote from: RaySmith on October 08, 2018, 05:51:35 AM
Yeah, crucify him on TV for viewers' titillation - great for the confidence of our only available right back.
Thanks Shearer.
One would rather have Shearer spell out the bad points, than Fulham suffer further from a useless wing-back out of his depth!
Quote from: Andy S on October 08, 2018, 11:50:14 PM
I don't take any notice of the pundits and I hope the players don't either. I don't remember shearer being a good player against quality defences....
You are talking out of your proverbial backside Andy S: Shearer was the greatest striker in the world! He proved it at every level, against every team, with lethal dispensation! Shearer is actually helping us, unlike you!
Identifying our weak links is the first part of fixing things.
Yep, Christie's not the answer. Even if he managed to get back in position most of the time, his end product is absolutely shocking. We can't be playing everything down the right only for him to cross into the first man. He did put one good ball in, though, for Kamara -- but it wasn't enough IMO.
Christie is our only available right back, and needs encouragement, and confidence building, not criticism, especially from someone who couldn't care less about Fulham - probably wants to undermine us, in fact, as Newcastle fan.
All the team were poor against Arsenal, so it seems wrong to pick out one player as scapegoat.
It's not his fault... it's Tony Khan's technically as it was his job to recruit and failed to identify full backs as important to our style and formation. I pointed this out when the window closed that this would come back to haunt us.
Only thing is that we can't complain really as he spent so much money elsewhere!
Anyway, I reckon if we can scrape 20 points from first 19 games we will be fine. We were stronger in second half of season last year and it'll be similar this year.
Christie is backed by SJ every time he gets the nod for first team duty, at least to the extent of his selection being 'the only option open' to him. If that isn't enough for Christie to perform to the best of his ability barring the one-off bad games then he has a problem. I would be critical of last Sunday's team in its entirety for the second half demonstration of ineptitude. Even Odoi who was my MOTM for us would admit to it being an all round poor showing in that dreadful fifty minutes or so. Hopefully every player will have a long hard look at what they should have done rather than what they did do and vow to be better.
We have had bad shows before and we have countered in the next game. Let us hope that sort of recovery shows itself against Cardiff.
Quote from: toshes mate on October 09, 2018, 08:29:12 AM
Christie is backed by SJ every time he gets the nod for first team duty, at least to the extent of his selection being 'the only option open' to him. If that isn't enough for Christie to perform to the best of his ability barring the one-off bad games then he has a problem. I would be critical of last Sunday's team in its entirety for the second half demonstration of ineptitude. Even Odoi who was my MOTM for us would admit to it being an all round poor showing in that dreadful fifty minutes or so. Hopefully every player will have a long hard look at what they should have done rather than what they did do and vow to be better.
We have had bad shows before and we have countered in the next game. Let us hope that sort of recovery shows itself against Cardiff.
That was Christie playing to the best of his ability. That is the issue. We needed to recruit a quality full back due to Fredericks departing, we failed. Not really Christie's fault nor is it the managers fault.
Quote from: Chutney on October 09, 2018, 10:42:15 AM
That was Christie playing to the best of his ability. That is the issue. We needed to recruit a quality full back due to Fredericks departing, we failed. Not really Christie's fault nor is it the managers fault.
I don't think we have seen, and may be will not see, Christie playing to the best of his ability. I do not see him as a natural wing back. He has neither the pace nor the guile to take on defenders on either foot, which means he is, at best, a full back who can attack in beneficial circumstances. He is not Fredericks and never will be, and I wonder just why the recruiters bought him given what we really needed. To me the whole Fredericks and Targett sagas stink of truly poor judgement by senior officials.
As you say neither Christie nor Jokanovic can be held to account for that poor judgement.
The point is the manager saw how awful we were defensively and got the subbing entirely wrong. Taking Ream off and bringing on AK47 was ridiculous. It just gave the game away. Kamara made no impact and Ream holds the defence together. Just a really bad sub.
In fact he set the team up entirely wrongly too. He is out of his depth, that is clear.
Move Odoi to right back against Cardiff, Le Marchand left back, and Chambers and Mawson in the middle. I know they may not have played great up to now but would keep the centre half pairing who have premiership experience together for the next 8 games and give them time to gel. They could not leak more goals than the print chopping and changing.
Quote from: sarnian on October 09, 2018, 11:07:12 AM
Move Odoi to right back against Cardiff, Le Marchand left back, and Chambers and Mawson in the middle. I know they may not have played great up to now but would keep the centre half pairing who have premiership experience together for the next 8 games and give them time to gel. They could not leak more goals than the print chopping and changing.
MLM is too slow for full back, he's good at centre back.
Quote from: Mitrovic the warrior on October 09, 2018, 11:22:57 AM
Quote from: sarnian on October 09, 2018, 11:07:12 AM
Move Odoi to right back against Cardiff, Le Marchand left back, and Chambers and Mawson in the middle. I know they may not have played great up to now but would keep the centre half pairing who have premiership experience together for the next 8 games and give them time to gel. They could not leak more goals than the print chopping and changing.
MLM is too slow for full back, he's good at centre back.
MLM is better in a back three than he has appeared to be in a back four, but I agree he isn't pacey enough for a wing back role.
the pundits absolutely got wrong the game as a totality.
the first half was very even, nothing in it, both teams attacking and leaving spaces. ses was brilliant, vietto looked good In fact the defence was working pretty well against a talented side. True when christie goes forward he does not get back anywhere near quick enough.
second half, they were lucky to get the early goal but we remained in it but our substitutions and change of shape killed us. when ream left the field the chance of us getting back went with him. sess went back to LB the midfield became pnderous and we ripped to shreds. but if slava would have kept his nerve I suspect we may yet have got a result.
christie was targeted, he does not run back and shearer showed that endlessly and no matter how you play, and I do not mind him going forward, when you lose possesion turn round and get back ASAP not at a walk or slow trot.
MLM has been our best CB this season by a significant margin, despite a couple horror passes that led to goals. He should not be used at LB, although with Bryan's and TFM's injuries, we're very short right now at fullback.
Christie is not a wingback. If we're playing a back 3, then someone else needs to play in that role, and I'm not sure that person exists on the roster. Ayite, perhaps?
As bad as our defense has been, we've been ravaged by injury this season. Bryan and Fosu-Mensah currently. Mawson hasn't looked fit. Ream was out for a long while (and hasn't looked fit and/or his ceiling has been found). Additionally, Chambers was terrible when he played. Whether it's bad luck, bad recruiting and/or bad coaching, our CBs have been a complete mess ... with the "help" of our FBs struggling/being hurt, Anguissa being disappointing and Cairney being out, and playing with two wingers who don't defend.
I think it's all related. But what's fixable we won't know until several things come together at the same time.
Quote from: toshes mate on October 09, 2018, 12:41:20 PM
Quote from: Mitrovic the warrior on October 09, 2018, 11:22:57 AM
Quote from: sarnian on October 09, 2018, 11:07:12 AM
Move Odoi to right back against Cardiff, Le Marchand left back, and Chambers and Mawson in the middle. I know they may not have played great up to now but would keep the centre half pairing who have premiership experience together for the next 8 games and give them time to gel. They could not leak more goals than the print chopping and changing.
MLM is too slow for full back, he's good at centre back.
MLM is better in a back three than he has appeared to be in a back four, but I agree he isn't pacey enough for a wing back role.
I'd consider him as the LB in a five of we were away (or even at home) against the better sides and his job was just defend. He showed he at Brighton he can't get forward, but still a decent defender. To shut up shop in a way, he could do that role then.
Quote from: nose on October 09, 2018, 01:01:35 PM
the pundits absolutely got wrong the game as a totality.
the first half was very even, nothing in it, both teams attacking and leaving spaces. ses was brilliant, vietto looked good In fact the defence was working pretty well against a talented side. True when christie goes forward he does not get back anywhere near quick enough.
second half, they were lucky to get the early goal but we remained in it but our substitutions and change of shape killed us. when ream left the field the chance of us getting back went with him. sess went back to LB the midfield became pnderous and we ripped to shreds. but if slava would have kept his nerve I suspect we may yet have got a result.
christie was targeted, he does not run back and shearer showed that endlessly and no matter how you play, and I do not mind him going forward, when you lose possesion turn round and get back ASAP not at a walk or slow trot.
Nose, Your post makes a lot of sense to me. Towards the end Christie was absolutely cream crackered. I dont think he's particularly unfit, it's just that we set ourselves up in a way where he had a ridiculous amount of running to do. Others walked off that pitch a lot lot fresher. They should all be utterly spent and scapegoating someone who did an attacking job I'm sure he was asked to do isn't my inclination.
Yeah, the more I watch the full match, the heatmaps, Christie was completely gassed in the 3-back system. I don't think this is fitness per se, this is a whole new system than what we are used to. He starts pressuring very high with Vietto on the right, then tracks all the way back to our endline, then all the way back to the other endline to help Vietto. Just for comparison sake, watch any match from last year and see where our full backs pressure. They pressure quite deep. To compare Christie to Fredericks, is completely skewed, because we have never used a wingback formation like this.
It's interesting of Slav to use this for the first time against Arsenal. That's where I question the logic, but upon seeing the 4-3-3 return, and how absolutely stale we were on both sides, I can see why the change was needed. Personally, I would have suggested a 5-4-1 against a team like Arsenal, but our coach likes bravery as a system versus just a character trait of the players.
Quote from: toshes mate on October 09, 2018, 10:51:26 AM
Quote from: Chutney on October 09, 2018, 10:42:15 AM
That was Christie playing to the best of his ability. That is the issue. We needed to recruit a quality full back due to Fredericks departing, we failed. Not really Christie's fault nor is it the managers fault.
I don't think we have seen, and may be will not see, Christie playing to the best of his ability. I do not see him as a natural wing back. He has neither the pace nor the guile to take on defenders on either foot, which means he is, at best, a full back
Those who saw him in the Fulham v Middlesbrough match at the Cottage might disagree with this. Trouble was, he was wearing a Middlesbrough shirt. He scored and caused us no end of trouble.
Interesting that Martin O'Neil has had a go at Shearer for his criticism of Christie (as in Wednesday's Fulham Stuff post), saying it's down to what the manager asked him to do. However having saud that, Christie did not do as well as Sess at covering the gaps, but then Arsenal did target our RHS not the LHS
Quote from: snarks on October 10, 2018, 08:17:27 AM
Interesting that Martin O'Neil has had a go at Shearer for his criticism of Christie (as in Wednesday's Fulham Stuff post), saying it's down to what the manager asked him to do. However having saud that, Christie did not do as well as Sess at covering the gaps, but then Arsenal did target our RHS not the LHS
Good point, but even Mr O'Neill knows that players do not always follow instruction. Clough once said of him 'I got you down to my level'.....
Cant find online Christies stats for the Arsenal game.
Would be interested to see how far he ran etc. compaired to other players ?
Quote from: Carborundum on October 09, 2018, 07:55:20 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 09, 2018, 10:51:26 AM
Quote from: Chutney on October 09, 2018, 10:42:15 AM
That was Christie playing to the best of his ability. That is the issue. We needed to recruit a quality full back due to Fredericks departing, we failed. Not really Christie's fault nor is it the managers fault.
I don't think we have seen, and may be will not see, Christie playing to the best of his ability. I do not see him as a natural wing back. He has neither the pace nor the guile to take on defenders on either foot, which means he is, at best, a full back
Those who saw him in the Fulham v Middlesbrough match at the Cottage might disagree with this. Trouble was, he was wearing a Middlesbrough shirt. He scored and caused us no end of trouble.
Mmm, good point. But I was referring to him playing in the present FFC eleven, twelve, thirteen, or fourteen, which would have probably resulted in him getting a hat trick playing against us.....
Quote from: Luka on October 10, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
Cant find online Christies stats for the Arsenal game.
Would be interested to see how far he ran etc. compaired to other players ?
The only people that don't seem to rate him as high, are those here, and Alan Shearer.
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1284814/Live/England-Premier-League-2018-2019-Fulham-Arsenal
FWIW. I reviewed the entire match, and grabbed screenshots of Christie's positioning. In the wingback, he's set to follow Monreal's overlap only. Same with Sess, except Sess was to follow Mikky, not Bellerin.
So when Monreal didn't overlap, Christie did not need to drop all the way back. It's clear that either Seri or Anguissa were supposed to drop back the furthest in those situations to cover Iwobi. Christie dropped back only when required to cover for the midfielders or Odoi.
Edit: when we switched to our traditional 4-3-3, he was back to playing a zonal approach, and was seen multiple times dropping back. When he was behind, it was because we lost the ball in the midfield, when he was already in an advanced position to support.
The areas where I think he struggled was intercepting 1 or 2 passes, not able to hold the offsides on Ramsey's goal, and his first touch once in the first half, and again in the second half.
Quote from: Matt10 on October 10, 2018, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Luka on October 10, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
Cant find online Christies stats for the Arsenal game.
Would be interested to see how far he ran etc. compaired to other players ?
The only people that don't seem to rate him as high, are those here, and Alan Shearer.
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1284814/Live/England-Premier-League-2018-2019-Fulham-Arsenal
FWIW. I reviewed the entire match, and grabbed screenshots of Christie's positioning. In the wingback, he's set to follow Monreal's overlap only. Same with Sess, except Sess was to follow Mikky, not Bellerin.
So when Monreal didn't overlap, Christie did not need to drop all the way back. It's clear that either Seri or Anguissa were supposed to drop back the furthest in those situations to cover Iwobi. Christie dropped back only when required to cover for the midfielders or Odoi.
Edit: when we switched to our traditional 4-3-3, he was back to playing a zonal approach, and was seen multiple times dropping back. When he was behind, it was because we lost the ball in the midfield, when he was already in an advanced position to support.
The areas where I think he struggled was intercepting 1 or 2 passes, not able to hold the offsides on Ramsey's goal, and his first touch once in the first half, and again in the second half.
Others things to note is that In Sess and Christie, attacking wise they are different. Christie will hug the touchline looking to receive the bal (As show on he touches and heatmaps) and be seen as the outlet to get to the byline, where Sess is much more the runner direct or in to space inside. My moan at him is he needs to cross quicker.
Quote from: toshes mate on October 10, 2018, 09:26:41 AM
Quote from: snarks on October 10, 2018, 08:17:27 AM
Interesting that Martin O'Neil has had a go at Shearer for his criticism of Christie (as in Wednesday's Fulham Stuff post), saying it's down to what the manager asked him to do. However having saud that, Christie did not do as well as Sess at covering the gaps, but then Arsenal did target our RHS not the LHS
Good point, but even Mr O'Neill knows that players do not always follow instruction. Clough once said of him 'I got you down to my level'.....
True, I met Mr O'Neil when he was starting out at forest (Big Dave Mackay was manager), really nice bloke, had time for me as a kid but was obviously very intelligent. I looked at the article in the mail (oh the shame) O'Neil did say he asked Christie about what Slav wanted him to do, and he was carrying out instructions (Christie would say that tho').
Quote from: MJG on October 10, 2018, 12:55:21 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on October 10, 2018, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Luka on October 10, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
Cant find online Christies stats for the Arsenal game.
Would be interested to see how far he ran etc. compaired to other players ?
The only people that don't seem to rate him as high, are those here, and Alan Shearer.
https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1284814/Live/England-Premier-League-2018-2019-Fulham-Arsenal
FWIW. I reviewed the entire match, and grabbed screenshots of Christie's positioning. In the wingback, he's set to follow Monreal's overlap only. Same with Sess, except Sess was to follow Mikky, not Bellerin.
So when Monreal didn't overlap, Christie did not need to drop all the way back. It's clear that either Seri or Anguissa were supposed to drop back the furthest in those situations to cover Iwobi. Christie dropped back only when required to cover for the midfielders or Odoi.
Edit: when we switched to our traditional 4-3-3, he was back to playing a zonal approach, and was seen multiple times dropping back. When he was behind, it was because we lost the ball in the midfield, when he was already in an advanced position to support.
The areas where I think he struggled was intercepting 1 or 2 passes, not able to hold the offsides on Ramsey's goal, and his first touch once in the first half, and again in the second half.
Others things to note is that In Sess and Christie, attacking wise they are different. Christie will hug the touchline looking to receive the bal (As show on he touches and heatmaps) and be seen as the outlet to get to the byline, where Sess is much more the runner direct or in to space inside. My moan at him is he needs to cross quicker.
Agreed. Same can be said for Freddo last year who focused on beating his man first. I highlighted this in my Rui Fonte and Ayite video that shows how our forwards couldn't capitalize on their runs into the box as a result. Christie doesn't take on his man, at least not with pace, but his crosses are pretty dangerous. Not sure why some say they aren't. Had one in the first that Mustafi read just in time, another where Sess tried to go in with his left instead of his right, Kamara's of course, then Mitro pushes Mustafi, or Holding, can't remember, in the back.
Quote from: snarks on October 10, 2018, 01:09:53 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 10, 2018, 09:26:41 AM
Quote from: snarks on October 10, 2018, 08:17:27 AM
Interesting that Martin O'Neil has had a go at Shearer for his criticism of Christie (as in Wednesday's Fulham Stuff post), saying it's down to what the manager asked him to do. However having saud that, Christie did not do as well as Sess at covering the gaps, but then Arsenal did target our RHS not the LHS
Good point, but even Mr O'Neill knows that players do not always follow instruction. Clough once said of him 'I got you down to my level'.....
True, I met Mr O'Neil when he was starting out at forest (Big Dave Mackay was manager), really nice bloke, had time for me as a kid but was obviously very intelligent. I looked at the article in the mail (oh the shame) O'Neil did say he asked Christie about what Slav wanted him to do, and he was carrying out instructions (Christie would say that tho').
That's the thing, I 100% believe Christie was following instructions. The video doesn't lie, in the 3-back, he's looking at Monreal's positioning. If Monreal doesn't push, he stays high. If Iwobi beats Zambo or Odoi, he drops. I can't imagine he chose to be lazy and not track back if he wasn't instructed told to.
Quote from: Matt10 on October 10, 2018, 01:21:41 PM
Quote from: snarks on October 10, 2018, 01:09:53 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 10, 2018, 09:26:41 AM
Quote from: snarks on October 10, 2018, 08:17:27 AM
Interesting that Martin O'Neil has had a go at Shearer for his criticism of Christie (as in Wednesday's Fulham Stuff post), saying it's down to what the manager asked him to do. However having saud that, Christie did not do as well as Sess at covering the gaps, but then Arsenal did target our RHS not the LHS
Good point, but even Mr O'Neill knows that players do not always follow instruction. Clough once said of him 'I got you down to my level'.....
True, I met Mr O'Neil when he was starting out at forest (Big Dave Mackay was manager), really nice bloke, had time for me as a kid but was obviously very intelligent. I looked at the article in the mail (oh the shame) O'Neil did say he asked Christie about what Slav wanted him to do, and he was carrying out instructions (Christie would say that tho').
That's the thing, I 100% believe Christie was following instructions. The video doesn't lie, in the 3-back, he's looking at Monreal's positioning. If Monreal doesn't push, he stays high. If Iwobi beats Zambo or Odoi, he drops. I can't imagine he chose to be lazy and not track back if he wasn't instructed told to.
Why not? Maybe his endurance levels were low. It's not like I've seen him run his ars off when he wasn't participating in an attack. He could have easily been tired.
Quote from: Matt10 on October 10, 2018, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Luka on October 10, 2018, 11:11:07 AM
Cant find online Christies stats for the Arsenal game.
Would be interested to see how far he ran etc. compaired to other players ?
FWIW. I reviewed the entire match, and grabbed screenshots of Christie's positioning. In the wingback, he's set to follow Monreal's overlap only. Same with Sess, except Sess was to follow Mikky, not Bellerin.
So when Monreal didn't overlap, Christie did not need to drop all the way back. It's clear that either Seri or Anguissa were supposed to drop back the furthest in those situations to cover Iwobi. Christie dropped back only when required to cover for the midfielders or Odoi.
If this is how he was instructed to play, that's ridiculous. We can't have one of our two central midfielders tracking back to cover a wing defensively. Show the screenshots of the acres of space in our midfield as Arsenal collected second balls and had man-advantages going forward.
Players are only human, not Supermen. Going on a run up the wing with the ball, then getting back can be exhausting, if not impossible to keep up. All players have to pace themselves to last 90 minutes.
Also, if you look back and see an opposition player haring towards your goal with the ball, you might realise that it's impossible and a waste of energy trying to catch him - and just a token effort, when others should be covering you defensively anyway.
Think back to schooldays - kids always chase after the ball in a pack, and teachers tell you to stay in position.
Christie could, as he said, have been following the manager's instructions, who wanted attacking wing backs- to stay fairly high up the field.
