1. Calm down
2. Some of the negativity on this forum (eg. wishing an injury on Bettinelli so Rico can have a chance, calling for Jokanovic to be sacked tonight) is frankly disturbing.
3. One of the commentators got it right: "the manager cannot legislate for individual mistakes" (eg. 3 of our goals conceded were easily the result of an individual error, mainly Chambers and Ream, and not tactical errors by Jokanovic).
4. COYW
Welcome to the first post. I agree that some comments are over the top. But we can't just ignore the failure of players AND coach. Both are to blame. The tactics are poor, the team selection confusing and yes the players are playing as if they haven't a clue either.
To pretend that changing the defence EVERY week is a good idea. Or that playing with a high line EVERY week is a good idea. Or playing with the players unsure of their positions isn't down to the coach I think is simply wrong. No he can't legislate for some appalling play by Ream and Chambers and the rest. But then you have to ask why these players are put into positions that they not only make mistakes in but look confused about what it is they are supposed to do. Yes we go over the top at times. The same way we all make Joka a God when he does things right. However the idea that we should all calm down. look on the bright side, worst things happen at sea, is that a knife I see before me etc etc. Is a tad premature.
Let's panic now and hope the change happens soon. Then you and all the other positive happy people can ride their unicorns through the corn field and mock our negative attitudes. Much like the unicorns I would love to get the point and be happy too.
Quote from: notice711 on October 21, 2018, 11:22:18 AM
1. Calm down
2. Some of the negativity on this forum (eg. wishing an injury on Bettinelli so Rico can have a chance, calling for Jokanovic to be sacked tonight) is frankly disturbing.
3. One of the commentators got it right: "the manager cannot legislate for individual mistakes" (eg. 3 of our goals conceded were easily the result of an individual error, mainly Chambers and Ream, and not tactical errors by Jokanovic).
4. COYW
Are you in the squad?
Good post.
We also need to better evaluate when we should play ,or clear our Lines.First goal Chambers ,second Schurrle, third Ream fourth le Marchand.
All unecessary risk taking in positions asking to get punished. We didnt defend like that in the last 20 minutes at wembly or take those risks.
We need to find our way back to that mentality in crucial periods of games. Can Slavisa turn it around ? i still think he can.
Quote from: Lighthouse on October 21, 2018, 11:54:58 AM
Welcome to the first post. I agree that some comments are over the top. But we can't just ignore the failure of players AND coach. Both are to blame. The tactics are poor, the team selection confusing and yes the players are playing as if they haven't a clue either.
To pretend that changing the defence EVERY week is a good idea. Or that playing with a high line EVERY week is a good idea. Or playing with the players unsure of their positions isn't down to the coach I think is simply wrong. No he can't legislate for some appalling play by Ream and Chambers and the rest. But then you have to ask why these players are put into positions that they not only make mistakes in but look confused about what it is they are supposed to do. Yes we go over the top at times. The same way we all make Joka a God when he does things right. However the idea that we should all calm down. look on the bright side, worst things happen at sea, is that a knife I see before me etc etc. Is a tad premature.
Let's panic now and hope the change happens soon. Then you and all the other positive happy people can ride their unicorns through the corn field and mock our negative attitudes. Much like the unicorns I would love to get the point and be happy too.
I agree the chopping and changing of the defensive line is a factor. However, I think this is indicative of the players letting their manager down. Any manager would chop and change like Jokanovic has done when during every training session he cannot see any defenders who have stepped up to Premier League level. Thus when we blame the manager for changing the lineup, perhaps we should lay more blame on the players who cannot perform well enough to maintain a starting position. Overall I am inclined to blame the players so far. If results don't improve, and our tactical system fails (which I don't think it has) , we can lay more proportionate blame on Jokanovic IMO.
I'm still trying to come to terms with how poorly some of the new additions have seemingly (not) adapted to life in the Prem. Mawson & Chambers you would expect an immediate response, the midfielders a tad longer but should be up to pace now. Difficult to comment on keepers.
Quote from: notice711 on October 21, 2018, 12:15:56 PM
I agree the chopping and changing of the defensive line is a factor. However, I think this is indicative of the players letting their manager down. Any manager would chop and change like Jokanovic has done when during every training session he cannot see any defenders who have stepped up to Premier League level. Thus when we blame the manager for changing the lineup, perhaps we should lay more blame on the players who cannot perform well enough to maintain a starting position. Overall I am inclined to blame the players so far. If results don't improve, and our tactical system fails (which I don't think it has) , we can lay more proportionate blame on Jokanovic IMO.
Your first post was really apposite and the riposte (which I quote) bang on the nail.
Welcome to the Forum.
Quote from: notice711 on October 21, 2018, 12:15:56 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on October 21, 2018, 11:54:58 AM
Welcome to the first post. I agree that some comments are over the top. But we can't just ignore the failure of players AND coach. Both are to blame. The tactics are poor, the team selection confusing and yes the players are playing as if they haven't a clue either.
To pretend that changing the defence EVERY week is a good idea. Or that playing with a high line EVERY week is a good idea. Or playing with the players unsure of their positions isn't down to the coach I think is simply wrong. No he can't legislate for some appalling play by Ream and Chambers and the rest. But then you have to ask why these players are put into positions that they not only make mistakes in but look confused about what it is they are supposed to do. Yes we go over the top at times. The same way we all make Joka a God when he does things right. However the idea that we should all calm down. look on the bright side, worst things happen at sea, is that a knife I see before me etc etc. Is a tad premature.
Let's panic now and hope the change happens soon. Then you and all the other positive happy people can ride their unicorns through the corn field and mock our negative attitudes. Much like the unicorns I would love to get the point and be happy too.
I agree the chopping and changing of the defensive line is a factor. However, I think this is indicative of the players letting their manager down. Any manager would chop and change like Jokanovic has done when during every training session he cannot see any defenders who have stepped up to Premier League level. Thus when we blame the manager for changing the lineup, perhaps we should lay more blame on the players who cannot perform well enough to maintain a starting position. Overall I am inclined to blame the players so far. If results don't improve, and our tactical system fails (which I don't think it has) , we can lay more proportionate blame on Jokanovic IMO.
The "Coach" has had 2 international breaks to turn 4 players into a unit or tell them where zow z is, so he's either really bad at coaching defense or just ignores it and says lets see how we can attack or we have managed to buy/loan the worst/stupidest defenders in history based on stats and scouting.
Quite frankly I would just like the defense to defend play a 4/1/2/3 let the back four defend no full backs pretending to be wingers, the DM to cover if needed and support the attack from deep and the over 5 can run rings around the opposition
Quote from: Nero on October 21, 2018, 12:52:25 PM
The "Coach" has had 2 international breaks to turn 4 players into a unit or tell them where zow z is, so he's either really bad at coaching defense or just ignores it and says lets see how we can attack or we have managed to buy/loan the worst/stupidest defenders in history based on stats and scouting.
Quite frankly I would just like the defense to defend play a 4/1/2/3 let the back four defend no full backs pretending to be wingers, the DM to cover if needed and support the attack from deep and the over 5 can run rings around the opposition
I can see something to this point of a constantly changing lineup, even with two international breaks, however, I still argue:
1. If a manager cannot decide on a settled defensive lineup, it is usually because the defensive players have continually played poorly as individuals
2. The manager has not decided on a settled defensive lineup
C1. The defensive players have played poorly as individuals (1,2)
4. If defensive players continually play poorly as individuals (C1), they are more to blame than the manager
5. The defensive players have continually played poorly as individuals (C1).
Conclusion: The defensive players are more to blame than the manager (4,5)
The 'International Breaks' excuse is a canard. If a player is not showing Club form before the break and either goes off on duty for his country or is left surrounded by Club players who are also out of Club form then all a coach can do is try to identify what the problem is and help the player to find form during the break. That is easier said than done. Pitch time is the only way a player is going to change attitude and whether that is playing with the kids or continually failing in the first team is down to the player. At the moment I feel the coaches are having to field the best of a pretty poor bunch of professionals for whatever reasons. Defence is, as are all things in football, a team responsibility and if a professional cannot make good contact with a football when it matters most and instead fouls up every time then what on earth are they doing in the game?
Sess., Odoi, Chambers, Ream, Le Marchand, Mensah, Christie, Bryan, Mawson, we have two players for each position in a back four but Jocanovic is using players in in different positions and we are seeing every back four permutation imaginable.
It is possible that next week all eight defensive players could be fit so the coach could dream up yet another back four line up not yet seen.
The chances of predicting our back four line up is a challenge, be prepared for the possibility of Sess. as a centre back.
Playing all our defence out of position was just plain silly. I understand the value in the odd experiment but, come on, square pegs in square holes is generally the sensible approach. The recent line ups smack of desperation to me.
Quote from: notice711 on October 21, 2018, 01:10:16 PM
Quote from: Nero on October 21, 2018, 12:52:25 PM
The "Coach" has had 2 international breaks to turn 4 players into a unit or tell them where zow z is, so he's either really bad at coaching defense or just ignores it and says lets see how we can attack or we have managed to buy/loan the worst/stupidest defenders in history based on stats and scouting.
Quite frankly I would just like the defense to defend play a 4/1/2/3 let the back four defend no full backs pretending to be wingers, the DM to cover if needed and support the attack from deep and the over 5 can run rings around the opposition
I can see something to this point of a constantly changing lineup, even with two international breaks, however, I still argue:
1. If a manager cannot decide on a settled defensive lineup, it is usually because the defensive players have continually played poorly as individuals
2. The manager has not decided on a settled defensive lineup
C1. The defensive players have played poorly as individuals (1,2)
4. If defensive players continually play poorly as individuals (C1), they are more to blame than the manager
5. The defensive players have continually played poorly as individuals (C1).
Conclusion: The defensive players are more to blame than the manager (4,5)
So we have 8 players individually playing badly at the same time what is the common factor that all these players share and how and why are they playing this badly? and why dont the forwards seem to suffering they are still scoring goals
The 'common factor' (FWIW) last October (when we were also struggling) was 'players out of position', 'Jokanovic's tactics and substitutions', 'players not of Championship standard', 'idiotic substitutions', 'expensive signings not fit for purpose', 'Jokanovic's stubbornness', etc., etc. Of course, none of them actually tell us how it all turned out in the end.
Quote from: notice711 on October 21, 2018, 12:15:56 PM
I agree the chopping and changing of the defensive line is a factor. However, I think this is indicative of the players letting their manager down. Any manager would chop and change like Jokanovic has done when during every training session he cannot see any defenders who have stepped up to Premier League level. Thus when we blame the manager for changing the lineup, perhaps we should lay more blame on the players who cannot perform well enough to maintain a starting position. Overall I am inclined to blame the players so far. If results don't improve, and our tactical system fails (which I don't think it has) , we can lay more proportionate blame on Jokanovic IMO.
I concur with this. It's hardly Joka's fault if none of the back four is a candidate for automatic selection by virtue of his performances. I would be more critical if it could be proved that SJ had a decisive role in selecting the new intake over the summer. I would be inclined to give Mawson a starting berth on Saturday, for what it's worth. He does at least pose a threat at set-pieces.
It's also not true that he lacks tactical acuity. He switched the hapless Chambers into central defence and moved Odoi to right back which pretty nullified Murphy for the rest of the match.
Or playing with the players unsure of their positions isn't down to the coach I think is simply wrong. Let's panic now and hope the change happens soon. Then you and all the other positive happy people can ride their unicorns through the corn field and mock our negative attitudes.
[/quote]
Bingo that! This team has been very disappointing so far, with no improvement whatsoever shown over these first handful of games in the PL. Especially the defense. It seems that an opponent need only plop the ball into the attack zone and have at it, our defenders look like a bunch of high schoolers/chickens with cut off heads as they try to clear or make some sense out of the predicament they're in. It's brutal.
As much as I like JS and the job he did to get the Cottagers to the PL, his job can't be ruled safe by any stretch. Something has to change. After all, a coach can win the PL and find himself sacked the following year (see Chelsea, Leicester). Very frustrating watching this team. I really thought they would be much better, even in the PL, perhaps somewhere mid table.
Quote from: Neil D on October 21, 2018, 03:20:01 PM
Quote from: notice711 on October 21, 2018, 12:15:56 PM
I agree the chopping and changing of the defensive line is a factor. However, I think this is indicative of the players letting their manager down. Any manager would chop and change like Jokanovic has done when during every training session he cannot see any defenders who have stepped up to Premier League level. Thus when we blame the manager for changing the lineup, perhaps we should lay more blame on the players who cannot perform well enough to maintain a starting position. Overall I am inclined to blame the players so far. If results don't improve, and our tactical system fails (which I don't think it has) , we can lay more proportionate blame on Jokanovic IMO.
Well, I do think you can hold JS accountable for some of his tactical moves and choices. Fulham's 2nd half performances have been dreadful. They compete, even against some strong competition, for 45 minutes. Then the roof caves in.
Quote from: toshes mate on October 21, 2018, 02:45:54 PM
The 'common factor' (FWIW) last October (when we were also struggling) was 'players out of position', 'Jokanovic's tactics and substitutions', 'players not of Championship standard', 'idiotic substitutions', 'expensive signings not fit for purpose', 'Jokanovic's stubbornness', etc., etc. Of course, none of them actually tell us how it all turned out in the end.
So he keeps on making the same mistakes season after season and that is a good thing because he got it right in the end?
Quote from: Lighthouse on October 21, 2018, 04:15:27 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 21, 2018, 02:45:54 PM
The 'common factor' (FWIW) last October (when we were also struggling) was 'players out of position', 'Jokanovic's tactics and substitutions', 'players not of Championship standard', 'idiotic substitutions', 'expensive signings not fit for purpose', 'Jokanovic's stubbornness', etc., etc. Of course, none of them actually tell us how it all turned out in the end.
So he keeps on making the same mistakes season after season and that is a good thing because he got it right in the end?
You mean it was a mistake to get promotion...
I think I understand where you are going with that argument.
Quote from: toshes mate on October 21, 2018, 04:50:46 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on October 21, 2018, 04:15:27 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 21, 2018, 02:45:54 PM
The 'common factor' (FWIW) last October (when we were also struggling) was 'players out of position', 'Jokanovic's tactics and substitutions', 'players not of Championship standard', 'idiotic substitutions', 'expensive signings not fit for purpose', 'Jokanovic's stubbornness', etc., etc. Of course, none of them actually tell us how it all turned out in the end.
So he keeps on making the same mistakes season after season and that is a good thing because he got it right in the end?
You mean it was a mistake to get promotion...
I think I understand where you are going with that argument.
I think we had the best team in the league by far and crept in via the lottery of the play offs. I think Joka deserves great credit. But to expect him to keep on struggling until Christmas in the hope he will recapture some magic formula and make that a case for debate seems odd. Now I do understand that those who will always put the Coach above the players will say it is the players fault. Nobody can argue that they have been woeful. But equally one must not pretend the Coach is some innocent victim. I just don't see the argument that he won us promotion despite the problems before Christmas is a valid one.
I've refrained from posting anything negative and fully agree with the OP .
It doesn't help anyone's well being let alone the players or boss who I'm sure read some of it.
I also know it's here for people to express their opinions, but so much negativity. I'm off to nth Wales for a few days whilst things calm down , hopefully.
Quote from: Lighthouse on October 21, 2018, 05:38:23 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 21, 2018, 04:50:46 PM
Quote from: Lighthouse on October 21, 2018, 04:15:27 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on October 21, 2018, 02:45:54 PM
The 'common factor' (FWIW) last October (when we were also struggling) was 'players out of position', 'Jokanovic's tactics and substitutions', 'players not of Championship standard', 'idiotic substitutions', 'expensive signings not fit for purpose', 'Jokanovic's stubbornness', etc., etc. Of course, none of them actually tell us how it all turned out in the end.
So he keeps on making the same mistakes season after season and that is a good thing because he got it right in the end?
You mean it was a mistake to get promotion...
I think I understand where you are going with that argument.
I think we had the best team in the league by far and crept in via the lottery of the play offs. I think Joka deserves great credit. But to expect him to keep on struggling until Christmas in the hope he will recapture some magic formula and make that a case for debate seems odd. Now I do understand that those who will always put the Coach above the players will say it is the players fault. Nobody can argue that they have been woeful. But equally one must not pretend the Coach is some innocent victim. I just don't see the argument that he won us promotion despite the problems before Christmas is a valid one.
One thing I will say about Jokanovic's sides, at least at Fulham, is that they are sometimes capable of producing the absolute anti-climax to end all anti-climaxes after a blistering display in the previous game. This season he hasn't exactly got into the period where his sides are 'blistering'. I also seem to remember that Targett and Mitro were the players who turned a good side into a really good side. They were the keys that were needed in the summer window and had we had them from the start then records could have been broken on any number of items. That is the problem as I see it when recruitment is not as bright as it could and should be. Sometimes our signings really pay off whereas and mostly at other times there are no instant fits or wins. That is what I believe is the problem we have at this moment and the quality the money should have bought is not as clear as it probably should have been at those prices.
By Xmas we will either be lot healthier both as a football team and as supporters or we may have a lot of new negative threads about sacking whoever the head coach is by then. My thoughts are simply that for all his flaws Jokanovic bettering him at this stage is going to be very risky indeed, and if we don't better him then what is the point?
I watched it live and then again on tv.
If we had started Odoi at right back then things would have been very different.
Big mistake by the manager trusting Chambers in that role. Chambers has done nothing so far to say he deserves a start. Slav made the choice and we lost. Bad judgement on his side.
Just saying !
Broadly speaking the most successful teams are those that have a consistent and settled line up, particularly in defense. This season we have changed almost every game largely due to injuries. Only when we have had the first choice back four play a number of games together can we really objectively judge. At the beginning of the season I believed that the new squad was stronger than last years.....I still do but we have yet to see the full squad play together in any meaningful way. Time will tell but I think things will turn around as they did last season. My main worry is that this division is far harder than the championship to claw back points differentials. It is a fact that the bottom eight teams ( including us ) are all similar in ability and still , despite all the doom and gloom on this board within a win and a draw or to from us.
COYW
1) Good first post
2) Welcome back the real Mr Lighthouse - making a gloomy room even darker. You have put those errant moments of positivity and optimism behind you. I'm trying to imagine what a festive experience an evening on the beer would be with you and Statto.
Things can only get better !!!!!
COYW!
