Friends of Fulham

FROM WEST LONDON NEWS. COM -  LYALL THOMAS

Claudio Ranieri will have the same input over transfers at Fulham as his predecessor Slavisa Jokanovic did.



But Ranieri has suggested he will be happier with the club's recruitment policy than the Serbian, who was often at odds with the board over signings.

Jokanovic felt his own targets were ignored, but Ranieri says he is happy to work within the current set-up.

"I spoke with the chairman about this," he said. "There are some people that are working (on recruitment) and then they put to me some players.

"They show me the name and after I have to choose who is the right player for us. I am happy with that."

"For now I have to work with these players. I haven't met them all yet because of the international break. But already I love them. I want them to bring their best.

"After, if there is something, I can say to the chairman 'I need another player because I need this kind on the team' – that's another thing.



"I spoke with the chairman about it, and he said to me 'Claudio, if you need something, I am here'.

"But I said I want to see the players because, when you change the manager, the behaviour in the dressing room also changes.

"Some players maybe didn't play under the former manager, and with the new manager will give more, because maybe there is more feeling between the new manager and the player.

"I believe I have very good players, but now they have to show me the fighting spirit."

Blimey. Can't wait for the books to come out in about ten years. Where else is the transfer strategy so intriguing?.

Interesting. Sounds like the "2 yes" system to me.

What will be really interesting will be too see if players currently labeled as "bad business" will or will not shake off that label under Ranieri

Wonder what will happen if Claudio wants an over 28 y.o player.

A literal description of a 'thing', any 'thing', can be good, bad, or indifferent, and neither the Jokanovic version nor the Ranieri version are relevant when it comes to understanding how the 'thing' works in practice and p[ractical terms if indeed it works at all.  The human being operates in many fundamental ways and is usually seen at its best when it is purposeful, inclusive, cooperating, supportive, coordinating, and constructive and at its worse when ego driven, self centred, divisive, controlling, contorted and inflexible.  It is the effectiveness of the system and the results produced that are the difference, and not the descriptive texts  pushed via media. 

There is a data analyst opportunity involvig South American football currently open for applicants at Manchester City FC and I'd love to see Tony Khan go for it and not just put an end to nepotism at FFC but relieve us of its many negative effects.  He'd get some much needed experience about how English fooball works and perhaps then FFC would have a chance of seeing how a recruitment system could and can work to the betterment of all.  It's win-win TK.

Quote from: toshes mate on November 18, 2018, 08:23:56 AM
A literal description of a 'thing', any 'thing', can be good, bad, or indifferent, and neither the Jokanovic version nor the Ranieri version are relevant when it comes to understanding how the 'thing' works in practice and p[ractical terms if indeed it works at all.  The human being operates in many fundamental ways and is usually seen at its best when it is purposeful, inclusive, cooperating, supportive, coordinating, and constructive and at its worse when ego driven, self centred, divisive, controlling, contorted and inflexible.  It is the effectiveness of the system and the results produced that are the difference, and not the descriptive texts  pushed via media. 

There is a data analyst opportunity involvig South American football currently open for applicants at Manchester City FC and I'd love to see Tony Khan go for it and not just put an end to nepotism at FFC but relieve us of its many negative effects.  He'd get some much needed experience about how English fooball works and perhaps then FFC would have a chance of seeing how a recruitment system could and can work to the betterment of all.  It's win-win TK.

Leave poor Tony alone, why would he want to go, he's doing a great job here

Quote from: DevonFFC on November 18, 2018, 08:33:59 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 18, 2018, 08:23:56 AM
A literal description of a 'thing', any 'thing', can be good, bad, or indifferent, and neither the Jokanovic version nor the Ranieri version are relevant when it comes to understanding how the 'thing' works in practice and p[ractical terms if indeed it works at all.  The human being operates in many fundamental ways and is usually seen at its best when it is purposeful, inclusive, cooperating, supportive, coordinating, and constructive and at its worse when ego driven, self centred, divisive, controlling, contorted and inflexible.  It is the effectiveness of the system and the results produced that are the difference, and not the descriptive texts  pushed via media. 

There is a data analyst opportunity involvig South American football currently open for applicants at Manchester City FC and I'd love to see Tony Khan go for it and not just put an end to nepotism at FFC but relieve us of its many negative effects.  He'd get some much needed experience about how English fooball works and perhaps then FFC would have a chance of seeing how a recruitment system could and can work to the betterment of all.  It's win-win TK.

Leave poor Tony alone, why would he want to go, he's doing a great job here

Says a spokesperson for Mr Khan Jnr....

Quote from: toshes mate on November 18, 2018, 08:38:55 AM

Quote from: DevonFFC on November 18, 2018, 08:33:59 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 18, 2018, 08:23:56 AM
A literal description of a 'thing', any 'thing', can be good, bad, or indifferent, and neither the Jokanovic version nor the Ranieri version are relevant when it comes to understanding how the 'thing' works in practice and p[ractical terms if indeed it works at all.  The human being operates in many fundamental ways and is usually seen at its best when it is purposeful, inclusive, cooperating, supportive, coordinating, and constructive and at its worse when ego driven, self centred, divisive, controlling, contorted and inflexible.  It is the effectiveness of the system and the results produced that are the difference, and not the descriptive texts  pushed via media. 

There is a data analyst opportunity involvig South American football currently open for applicants at Manchester City FC and I'd love to see Tony Khan go for it and not just put an end to nepotism at FFC but relieve us of its many negative effects.  He'd get some much needed experience about how English fooball works and perhaps then FFC would have a chance of seeing how a recruitment system could and can work to the betterment of all.  It's win-win TK.

Leave poor Tony alone, why would he want to go, he's doing a great job here

Says a spokesperson for Mr Khan Jnr....

No a person who has a care about your health and mental state. The rage and repent you hold for Tony cannot be good for your heart.

Wish I did know him though, I'd like a go on his dads dingey

Oh, do stick to worrying about yourself dear DevonFFC because you clearly have more than enough to deal with already.   I'll let you know if I need your help, if that's okay with you?

Quote from: toshes mate on November 18, 2018, 08:51:49 AM
Oh, do stick to worrying about yourself dear DevonFFC because you clearly have more than enough to deal with already.   I'll let you know if I need your help, if that's okay with you?

I was at the drs other day, I got the all clear so nothing to worry about my end. If life gets you down though, it's ok to talk, just remember that.

Took me a some seconds to understand the 'drs' but it is reassuring to hear that you are in good hands. 

What nobody has satisfactorily explained is why this awful system has got us promotion?  Why Joka stuck with it. Why this squad started the season playing ok but suddenly lost their way completely.

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
What nobody has satisfactorily explained is why this awful system has got us promotion?  Why Joka stuck with it. Why this squad started the season playing ok but suddenly lost their way completely.

Because of Tony Khan buddy, it's all his fault. Everything

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
What nobody has satisfactorily explained is why this awful system has got us promotion? 

Well the obvious and predictable answer, which of course you won't like, is it must have been the coach that got us promoted, in spite of the transfer system.

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
Why Joka stuck with it. 

He made his unhappiness about the system very public and ultimately got his way own way to some extent when Kline was sacked. Surely we all have aspects of our job we're unhappy with, and moan about and/or try to change, without taking the nuclear option of quiting.

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
Why this squad started the season playing ok but suddenly lost their way completely.

This question is more difficult in fairness.

But which individuals have actually got worse since those first 4-6 games where we looked ok?

Rico, Mawson, Anguissa and Cairney are only just being intergrated or reintroduced into the team. Chambers and Christie looked improved, if anything. Sessegnon, Mitro and Odoi have been fairly consistent IMO.

Who's actually got worse? Fosu-Mensah?Schurrle maybe? Seri certainly. But did anyone expect luxury players like the Seri and Schurrle to keep their shoulders to the wheel if we slipped deep into a relegation battle? And Seri may just be upset because he's found out Tony Khan/Mackintosh allowed Nice to take a massive bonus off him when he was sold. 

Quote from: DevonFFC on November 18, 2018, 11:42:20 AM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
What nobody has satisfactorily explained is why this awful system has got us promotion?  Why Joka stuck with it. Why this squad started the season playing ok but suddenly lost their way completely.

Because of Tony Khan buddy, it's all his fault. Everything

That's your GP prescribed pill doing the talking, I presume.  Must be good stuff.

Quote from: toshes mate on November 18, 2018, 12:35:14 PM

Quote from: DevonFFC on November 18, 2018, 11:42:20 AM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
What nobody has satisfactorily explained is why this awful system has got us promotion?  Why Joka stuck with it. Why this squad started the season playing ok but suddenly lost their way completely.

Because of Tony Khan buddy, it's all his fault. Everything

That's your GP prescribed pill doing the talking, I presume.  Must be good stuff.

No I have been keeping an eye on your posts in last 24 hrs and everything is Tony Khans fault, I agree with a poster on another forum you have a problem with him

Quote from: DevonFFC on November 18, 2018, 12:49:54 PM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 18, 2018, 12:35:14 PM

Quote from: DevonFFC on November 18, 2018, 11:42:20 AM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
What nobody has satisfactorily explained is why this awful system has got us promotion?  Why Joka stuck with it. Why this squad started the season playing ok but suddenly lost their way completely.

Because of Tony Khan buddy, it's all his fault. Everything

That's your GP prescribed pill doing the talking, I presume.  Must be good stuff.

No I have been keeping an eye on your posts in last 24 hrs and everything is Tony Khans fault, I agree with a poster on another forum you have a problem with him

But I am not alone in 'having a problem with him' judging by the comments of many others who you haven't chosen to pick on. 

You two sound just like the Fulham dressing room.

Quote from: Statto on November 18, 2018, 11:48:20 AM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
What nobody has satisfactorily explained is why this awful system has got us promotion? 

Well the obvious and predictable answer, which of course you won't like, is it must have been the coach that got us promoted, in spite of the transfer system.

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
Why Joka stuck with it. 

He made his unhappiness about the system very public and ultimately got his way own way to some extent when Kline was sacked. Surely we all have aspects of our job we're unhappy with, and moan about and/or try to change, without taking the nuclear option of quiting.

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
Why this squad started the season playing ok but suddenly lost their way completely.

This question is more difficult in fairness.

But which individuals have actually got worse since those first 4-6 games where we looked ok?

Rico, Mawson, Anguissa and Cairney are only just being intergrated or reintroduced into the team. Chambers and Christie looked improved, if anything. Sessegnon, Mitro and Odoi have been fairly consistent IMO.

Who's actually got worse? Fosu-Mensah?Schurrle maybe? Seri certainly. But did anyone expect luxury players like the Seri and Schurrle to keep their shoulders to the wheel if we slipped deep into a relegation battle? And Seri may just be upset because he's found out Tony Khan/Mackintosh allowed Nice to take a massive bonus off him when he was sold.

Mr S. why is it Tony Khan/Mackintosh fault, Fulham agree fee, surely how the buying club decide what to do with the income is not up to them/player/agent.

Without trying to be rude, you do tend to lump everything you don't like on them, is this purely because you don't like them.

Quote from: toshes mate on November 18, 2018, 12:53:33 PM

Quote from: DevonFFC on November 18, 2018, 12:49:54 PM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 18, 2018, 12:35:14 PM

Quote from: DevonFFC on November 18, 2018, 11:42:20 AM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
What nobody has satisfactorily explained is why this awful system has got us promotion?  Why Joka stuck with it. Why this squad started the season playing ok but suddenly lost their way completely.

Because of Tony Khan buddy, it's all his fault. Everything

That's your GP prescribed pill doing the talking, I presume.  Must be good stuff.

No I have been keeping an eye on your posts in last 24 hrs and everything is Tony Khans fault, I agree with a poster on another forum you have a problem with him

But I am not alone in 'having a problem with him' judging by the comments of many others who you haven't chosen to pick on.

Im not picking on you, making me sound like a bully. But you cannot pin every failing on the Khans I just think it's very singleminded of you.
It's your opinion of course but I don't understand it

Quote from: alfie on November 18, 2018, 01:24:19 PM

Quote from: Statto on November 18, 2018, 11:48:20 AM
Seri may just be upset because he's found out Tony Khan/Mackintosh allowed Nice to take a massive bonus off him when he was sold.

Mr S. why is it Tony Khan/Mackintosh fault, Fulham agree fee, surely how the buying club decide what to do with the income is not up to them/player/agent.

Without trying to be rude, you do tend to lump everything you don't like on them, is this purely because you don't like them.

I'm open-minded about this Seri story and may well change my mind if/when more information comes to light Alfie.

I find it hard to believe that nothing in the paperwork we were required to sign said what we were paying for each player.

Even if it was all treated as a single fee, a single £30m payment for both players, did we know (or ought we have known) about the percentage of Seri's fee due to him, and that by treating it as one payment for both players, we were giving Nice the opportunity to keep for themselves a few million that would otherwise have been due to Seri? Of course if it emerges that we did a reasonable amount of due diligence and it just didn't uncover that information, then fine, I agree FFC are free from blame here. But personally I also think that unlikely, at this point.

Quote from: DevonFFC on November 18, 2018, 01:57:56 PM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 18, 2018, 12:53:33 PM

Quote from: DevonFFC on November 18, 2018, 12:49:54 PM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 18, 2018, 12:35:14 PM

Quote from: DevonFFC on November 18, 2018, 11:42:20 AM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
What nobody has satisfactorily explained is why this awful system has got us promotion?  Why Joka stuck with it. Why this squad started the season playing ok but suddenly lost their way completely.

Because of Tony Khan buddy, it's all his fault. Everything

That's your GP prescribed pill doing the talking, I presume.  Must be good stuff.

No I have been keeping an eye on your posts in last 24 hrs and everything is Tony Khans fault, I agree with a poster on another forum you have a problem with him

But I am not alone in 'having a problem with him' judging by the comments of many others who you haven't chosen to pick on.

Im not picking on you, making me sound like a bully. But you cannot pin every failing on the Khans I just think it's very singleminded of you.
It's your opinion of course but I don't understand it

Well why didn't you say that in the first place?  If you feel like a bully then that is your problem not mine.

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
What nobody has satisfactorily explained is why this awful system has got us promotion?  Why Joka stuck with it. Why this squad started the season playing ok but suddenly lost their way completely.

Joka Snapchat message Mitro himself after Kline got thrown out by the police.

Targett also seems to be Joka's handiwork.

Joka got his way last January and then got us promoted.

It seems the board were trying to revive their own system again after the promotion.

Anyway, glad that CR is happy with the set up.

I just find the 2 "Yes" system probably counter productive.... the coach can just say No No No and then everybody panic towards the closing bell.

Maybe that was why most of our signings came on the last day.

Quote from: Statto on November 18, 2018, 02:04:29 PM

Quote from: alfie on November 18, 2018, 01:24:19 PM

Quote from: Statto on November 18, 2018, 11:48:20 AM
Seri may just be upset because he's found out Tony Khan/Mackintosh allowed Nice to take a massive bonus off him when he was sold.

Mr S. why is it Tony Khan/Mackintosh fault, Fulham agree fee, surely how the buying club decide what to do with the income is not up to them/player/agent.

Without trying to be rude, you do tend to lump everything you don't like on them, is this purely because you don't like them.

I'm open-minded about this Seri story and may well change my mind if/when more information comes to light Alfie.

I find it hard to believe that nothing in the paperwork we were required to sign said what we were paying for each player.

Even if it was all treated as a single fee, a single £30m payment for both players, did we know (or ought we have known) about the percentage of Seri's fee due to him, and that by treating it as one payment for both players, we were giving Nice the opportunity to keep for themselves a few million that would otherwise have been due to Seri? Of course if it emerges that we did a reasonable amount of due diligence and it just didn't uncover that information, then fine, I agree FFC are free from blame here. But personally I also think that unlikely, at this point.

Fair answer thanks, I understand we should know what we are paying for each player, not sure our business what Nice do with the money, and would have thought that players agent would/should have been on top of this.

I think the notion that we got promoted in spite of the transfer system rather than with the aid of it is complete and utter rubbish. Also what is rubbish is the idea that our system is so outlandishly different from any other club's system, and that we are somehow going against convention.

Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on November 18, 2018, 04:29:54 PM
I think the notion that we got promoted in spite of the transfer system rather than with the aid of it is complete and utter rubbish. Also what is rubbish is the idea that our system is so outlandishly different from any other club's system, and that we are somehow going against convention.

Agreed. Everything I read suggests that the system we employ is similar to many if not most Premiership clubs. No longer are managers allowed to bring in their favourites as that simply leads to turmoil when the manager goes and the new manager comes in and wants his favourites. Although valid debates could be had concerning the specific individuals.
Joka never really managed to crack the problem of a weak defence even last season and that is our Achilles heal now. It is interesting reading quotes from the Leicester back four, Morgan, Huth, Simpson etc when they one the League - how CR drilled into them the position they were expected to be in at various stages of an attack. Sounded very much how Roy worked. On the evidence so far this season we have to assume the defenders have not been coached in such a way

Quote from: ..FOF.. on November 18, 2018, 02:21:22 PM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
What nobody has satisfactorily explained is why this awful system has got us promotion?  Why Joka stuck with it. Why this squad started the season playing ok but suddenly lost their way completely.

Joka Snapchat message Mitro himself after Kline got thrown out by the police.

Targett also seems to be Joka's handiwork.

Joka got his way last January and then got us promoted.

It seems the board were trying to revive their own system again after the promotion.

Anyway, glad that CR is happy with the set up.

I just find the 2 "Yes" system probably counter productive.... the coach can just say No No No and then everybody panic towards the closing bell.

Maybe that was why most of our signings came on the last day.

Yes but the run had started before Mitro joined. Yes made a big difference but that wasn't the turning point. Most clubs would use this system. No coach has the time to scout and look for players. He will tell whoever needs to be told the type of players needed. Which was the problem under Kline who seemed to have his own ideas what the team needed.

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 05:16:22 PM

Quote from: ..FOF.. on November 18, 2018, 02:21:22 PM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
What nobody has satisfactorily explained is why this awful system has got us promotion?  Why Joka stuck with it. Why this squad started the season playing ok but suddenly lost their way completely.

Joka Snapchat message Mitro himself after Kline got thrown out by the police.

Targett also seems to be Joka's handiwork.

Joka got his way last January and then got us promoted.

It seems the board were trying to revive their own system again after the promotion.

Anyway, glad that CR is happy with the set up.

I just find the 2 "Yes" system probably counter productive.... the coach can just say No No No and then everybody panic towards the closing bell.

Maybe that was why most of our signings came on the last day.

Yes but the run had started before Mitro joined. Yes made a big difference but that wasn't the turning point. Most clubs would use this system. No coach has the time to scout and look for players. He will tell whoever needs to be told the type of players needed. Which was the problem under Kline who seemed to have his own ideas what the team needed.

I agree the coach do not focus on the actual physical scouting.

He does gives direction on who to scout or which area of the world should the scouting be done.

This is because only the coach understands the full tactics and who is best to implement it.

Khan's way is to take it from a pool of data. The human factor such as player coach chemistry, player's character and values are probably not very high in priorities.

Asking the coach to explain his tactics to a a person who came from a non football background would probably be more of a time not used very well.

Yes the run started before Mitro arrived.... imagined what would happen if Joka gave permission to let Kline sit in the dugout and control who plays.

There would probably be unhappiness in the management which will affect focus.

Joka got Kline kicked out to ensure that the good run continues, then got a free pass in January to get a bigger say in transfers.

We barely made it to the playoff and that is caused by the boardroom's meddling in the first half of that season.

Anyway, looking forward, I hope CR have a better EQ skills to deal with our boardroom style.

Joka straightforward style have allowed CR to see clearly what he is getting into.

'We barely made it to the playoff and that is caused by the boardroom's meddling in the first half of that season.'

Sorry FOF but again that is the idea that the players were all poor or didn't fit into the system but suddenly they did after the coach weaved his magic. Didn't believe it then and it makes no logical sense now. Still don't understand why we started well without getting the results we deserved this season and then went backwards in performance. Blaming the system alone doesn't make sense.

Surely it's impossible to ensure that every player  brought by club will be a success, however, the players are chosen - which is bound to be related to a number of variables, such as  price, do they want to come to the club,  wages etc.

Slavisa was supposedly involved in he transfer process under the tick box  method, and as said it's impossible for a manager/coach to scout and select every possible player considered suitable for an offer to be made to bring them to the club. And is Fulham's method different from most other clubs?

I can see that the very top clubs managers can say 'get me so and so' naming a famous name, but for most clubs they have to  scout and research to find players who may be both right , within the right budget, and available.

As Lighthouse said, Fulham's transfer process doesn't seem to have  done so bad, considering that Slavisa made the players into such a successful team - a team  that was broken up on promotion  through outside factors, such as players on loan fron clubs that didn't want to sell, and players wanting to move on.

Big money was spent on bringing in players  of the right quality necesary  for the Prem - and we  needed  a  number of players in a very short time, just to put a team out, and  as cover in  every position, and nearly eveyone agreed that these seemed  good buys, and congratulated  the owners on bringing such players to the club.

And I think most of these players could still prove to be good buys.

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 11:24:52 PM
'We barely made it to the playoff and that is caused by the boardroom's meddling in the first half of that season.'

Sorry FOF but again that is the idea that the players were all poor or didn't fit into the system but suddenly they did after the coach weaved his magic. Didn't believe it then and it makes no logical sense now. Still don't understand why we started well without getting the results we deserved this season and then went backwards in performance. Blaming the system alone doesn't make sense.

Kline wanted some players to be given major playing time, on top of sitting in the dugout during matches.

That was meddling after they finished with their transfer job.

I think that would cause poor result when other camps in the squad knows that undeserving players are being given preferential treatments.

Joka sidelined those players bought by the boardroom that is not performing straight into the under-23s.

I believe this was done to lift morale up again and separate the toxic.

After that our fortunes turned.

Kline got thrown out.

Joka finds replacement players.

We got promoted.

The boardroom's way of working was left opened for all to see and that will be a boon for CR.

And there was me thinking football was a team game with results being the product of hard work by players and coaches on the training ground, but now I am lead to believe that is only true when you want it to back whatever agenda others say you have. 

One thing I noted about SJ was he stepped away from transfer issues the moment he was clear what his impact upon them was, and he instead concentrated all effort on delivering performances from his side.  This season just happened to be very similar to his first summer window when results were all over the place with 5-0 wins mixed up with unexpected defeats as the misfits tried to sort themselves out in defence, midfield and attack - much like we have witnessed all over again.  And now we have another unknown to add to the equation.  Some supporters are a complete mystery to me I have to say.

Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on November 18, 2018, 04:29:54 PM
I think the notion that we got promoted in spite of the transfer system rather than with the aid of it is complete and utter rubbish. Also what is rubbish is the idea that our system is so outlandishly different from any other club's system, and that we are somehow going against convention.

This is really all that needs to be said regarding our transfer system I believe. All clubs use analytics nowadays, and basically no manager is heavily responsible for player recruiting. Of course there are varying degrees of involvement for different managers in different set ups, and also varying degrees of reliance on analytics, but to think that our system is that different from most clubs is, frankly, quite ridiculous.

That Kline was a bad egg that disrupted the harmony within the club does not change the above. 

Quote from: ..FOF.. on November 19, 2018, 01:50:14 AM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 11:24:52 PM
'We barely made it to the playoff and that is caused by the boardroom's meddling in the first half of that season.'

Sorry FOF but again that is the idea that the players were all poor or didn't fit into the system but suddenly they did after the coach weaved his magic. Didn't believe it then and it makes no logical sense now. Still don't understand why we started well without getting the results we deserved this season and then went backwards in performance. Blaming the system alone doesn't make sense.

Kline wanted some players to be given major playing time, on top of sitting in the dugout during matches.

That was meddling after they finished with their transfer job.

I think that would cause poor result when other camps in the squad knows that undeserving players are being given preferential treatments.

Joka sidelined those players bought by the boardroom that is not performing straight into the under-23s.

I believe this was done to lift morale up again and separate the toxic.

After that our fortunes turned.

Kline got thrown out.

Joka finds replacement players.

We got promoted.

The boardroom's way of working was left opened for all to see and that will be a boon for CR.

Strange way of looking at it. Don't think this is real and quite strange to claim it as fact if your not sure.
I know for a fact the daily mail printed a retraction on the article saying that Kline wanted to sit in the dugout. So that's not real.
What makes you think Targett and Christie were Jokas ideas? If it was up to Joka we would have had Cameron Jerome up front ..

Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on November 18, 2018, 04:29:54 PM
I think the notion that we got promoted in spite of the transfer system rather than with the aid of it is complete and utter rubbish. Also what is rubbish is the idea that our system is so outlandishly different from any other club's system, and that we are somehow going against convention.

100%

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 19, 2018, 09:30:33 AM
This is really all that needs to be said regarding our transfer system I believe. All clubs use analytics nowadays, and basically no manager is heavily responsible for player recruiting. Of course there are varying degrees of involvement for different managers in different set ups, and also varying degrees of reliance on analytics, but to think that our system is that different from most clubs is, frankly, quite ridiculous.

That Kline was a bad egg that disrupted the harmony within the club does not change the above. 

Most football clubs do not have the son of their owner in charge of 'analytics' (whatever you think that means), recruitment policy and delivery, which makes, in my books, FFC a special case.  We are not 'all clubs', we are a unique football club which has similarities with every other football clubs in that it plays competitive games, holds registration of players, has supporters, a ground etc., etc.       

Quote from: @jolslover on November 19, 2018, 09:31:01 AM

Quote from: ..FOF.. on November 19, 2018, 01:50:14 AM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 11:24:52 PM
'We barely made it to the playoff and that is caused by the boardroom's meddling in the first half of that season.'

Sorry FOF but again that is the idea that the players were all poor or didn't fit into the system but suddenly they did after the coach weaved his magic. Didn't believe it then and it makes no logical sense now. Still don't understand why we started well without getting the results we deserved this season and then went backwards in performance. Blaming the system alone doesn't make sense.

Kline wanted some players to be given major playing time, on top of sitting in the dugout during matches.

That was meddling after they finished with their transfer job.

I think that would cause poor result when other camps in the squad knows that undeserving players are being given preferential treatments.

Joka sidelined those players bought by the boardroom that is not performing straight into the under-23s.

I believe this was done to lift morale up again and separate the toxic.

After that our fortunes turned.

Kline got thrown out.

Joka finds replacement players.

We got promoted.

The boardroom's way of working was left opened for all to see and that will be a boon for CR.

Strange way of looking at it. Don't think this is real and quite strange to claim it as fact if your not sure.
I know for a fact the daily mail printed a retraction on the article saying that Kline wanted to sit in the dugout. So that's not real.
What makes you think Targett and Christie were Jokas ideas? If it was up to Joka we would have had Cameron Jerome up front ..

In the reply before that I said Mitro and Targett. I did not reference to the rest.

My apologies if the dugout story was a story retracted.

In each reply here I referred it back to Ranieri and how the saga can be helpful to him in terms of transparency.

That should be the focus, Joka is done here at Fulham.

My replies here are all to steer it back to CR and the future.

Quote from: toshes mate on November 19, 2018, 09:47:42 AM

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 19, 2018, 09:30:33 AM
This is really all that needs to be said regarding our transfer system I believe. All clubs use analytics nowadays, and basically no manager is heavily responsible for player recruiting. Of course there are varying degrees of involvement for different managers in different set ups, and also varying degrees of reliance on analytics, but to think that our system is that different from most clubs is, frankly, quite ridiculous.

That Kline was a bad egg that disrupted the harmony within the club does not change the above. 

Most football clubs do not have the son of their owner in charge of 'analytics' (whatever you think that means), recruitment policy and delivery, which makes, in my books, FFC a special case.  We are not 'all clubs', we are a unique football club which has similarities with every other football clubs in that it plays competitive games, holds registration of players, has supporters, a ground etc., etc.     

You are correct in that most clubs do not have the son of the owner in charge of recruitment. I am not at all convinced that Khan Jr. is the right person for that position. However, that is a problem with the man, not the system.

'Analytics' is supposed to refer to the dreaded 'Money ball' methods that is supposedly used by Tony (and with Kline in charge previously). This is of course used to some extent by all professional football clubs in addition to traditional scouting. In case that was unclear.

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 19, 2018, 10:09:01 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 19, 2018, 09:47:42 AM

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 19, 2018, 09:30:33 AM
This is really all that needs to be said regarding our transfer system I believe. All clubs use analytics nowadays, and basically no manager is heavily responsible for player recruiting. Of course there are varying degrees of involvement for different managers in different set ups, and also varying degrees of reliance on analytics, but to think that our system is that different from most clubs is, frankly, quite ridiculous.

That Kline was a bad egg that disrupted the harmony within the club does not change the above. 

Most football clubs do not have the son of their owner in charge of 'analytics' (whatever you think that means), recruitment policy and delivery, which makes, in my books, FFC a special case.  We are not 'all clubs', we are a unique football club which has similarities with every other football clubs in that it plays competitive games, holds registration of players, has supporters, a ground etc., etc.     

You are correct in that most clubs do not have the son of the owner in charge of recruitment. I am not at all convinced that Khan Jr. is the right person for that position. However, that is a problem with the man, not the system.

'Analytics' is supposed to refer to the dreaded 'Money ball' methods that is supposedly used by Tony (and with Kline in charge previously). This is of course used to some extent by all professional football clubs in addition to traditional scouting. In case that was unclear.

I think it is a problem with both the man and the system since TK uses his own (with Kline) system of selection which is the reason he tries to push it so hard on the Club.  I don't expect you to understand why that is a serious flaw in the whole set or take my word for it, but the evidence is clearly there that it is a serious deficiency which needs to be corrected.

Quote from: toshes mate on November 19, 2018, 10:13:09 AM

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 19, 2018, 10:09:01 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 19, 2018, 09:47:42 AM

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 19, 2018, 09:30:33 AM
This is really all that needs to be said regarding our transfer system I believe. All clubs use analytics nowadays, and basically no manager is heavily responsible for player recruiting. Of course there are varying degrees of involvement for different managers in different set ups, and also varying degrees of reliance on analytics, but to think that our system is that different from most clubs is, frankly, quite ridiculous.

That Kline was a bad egg that disrupted the harmony within the club does not change the above. 

Most football clubs do not have the son of their owner in charge of 'analytics' (whatever you think that means), recruitment policy and delivery, which makes, in my books, FFC a special case.  We are not 'all clubs', we are a unique football club which has similarities with every other football clubs in that it plays competitive games, holds registration of players, has supporters, a ground etc., etc.     

You are correct in that most clubs do not have the son of the owner in charge of recruitment. I am not at all convinced that Khan Jr. is the right person for that position. However, that is a problem with the man, not the system.

'Analytics' is supposed to refer to the dreaded 'Money ball' methods that is supposedly used by Tony (and with Kline in charge previously). This is of course used to some extent by all professional football clubs in addition to traditional scouting. In case that was unclear.

I think it is a problem with both the man and the system since TK uses his own (with Kline) system of selection which is the reason he tries to push it so hard on the Club.  I don't expect you to understand why that is a serious flaw in the whole set or take my word for it, but the evidence is clearly there that it is a serious deficiency which needs to be corrected.

What evidence is clearly there? Is it the fact that we have failed so far in the PL?

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 19, 2018, 11:21:42 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 19, 2018, 10:13:09 AM

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 19, 2018, 10:09:01 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 19, 2018, 09:47:42 AM

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 19, 2018, 09:30:33 AM
This is really all that needs to be said regarding our transfer system I believe. All clubs use analytics nowadays, and basically no manager is heavily responsible for player recruiting. Of course there are varying degrees of involvement for different managers in different set ups, and also varying degrees of reliance on analytics, but to think that our system is that different from most clubs is, frankly, quite ridiculous.

That Kline was a bad egg that disrupted the harmony within the club does not change the above. 

Most football clubs do not have the son of their owner in charge of 'analytics' (whatever you think that means), recruitment policy and delivery, which makes, in my books, FFC a special case.  We are not 'all clubs', we are a unique football club which has similarities with every other football clubs in that it plays competitive games, holds registration of players, has supporters, a ground etc., etc.     

You are correct in that most clubs do not have the son of the owner in charge of recruitment. I am not at all convinced that Khan Jr. is the right person for that position. However, that is a problem with the man, not the system.

'Analytics' is supposed to refer to the dreaded 'Money ball' methods that is supposedly used by Tony (and with Kline in charge previously). This is of course used to some extent by all professional football clubs in addition to traditional scouting. In case that was unclear.

I think it is a problem with both the man and the system since TK uses his own (with Kline) system of selection which is the reason he tries to push it so hard on the Club.  I don't expect you to understand why that is a serious flaw in the whole set or take my word for it, but the evidence is clearly there that it is a serious deficiency which needs to be corrected.

What evidence is clearly there? Is it the fact that we have failed so far in the PL?

The evidence is about life under the Khans.
Every season under them divides into fractional periods driven by big changes to either head coaches/managers or to playing staff.  There have been few periods of consolidation or settlement toward an upward trend.   Even our successful last season was almost patently one of two halves, a familiar pattern no matter who has been in charge of the team.  That to me is indicative of a problem at the top of the Club where decision makers have to have everybody onside. We keep repeating the same routine without ever figuring out where the problem of seasonal inconsistency really lies and that suggests there hasn't been much co-ordination of effort or drive to cohesion behind the scenes in the upper echelons where it should really show its mettle.  Good leadership starts at the top and filters down to the minnions because the goal becomes simplified and everybody pulls in the same direction or is very conspicuous because they are not pulling the right way.  The divided opinion as to where the fault with this season lies demonstrates that the Club has a big problem about leadership.  If Ranieri can change that then he would certainly be a godsend. 

Quote from: toshes mate on November 19, 2018, 11:40:25 AM

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 19, 2018, 11:21:42 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 19, 2018, 10:13:09 AM

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 19, 2018, 10:09:01 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 19, 2018, 09:47:42 AM

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 19, 2018, 09:30:33 AM
This is really all that needs to be said regarding our transfer system I believe. All clubs use analytics nowadays, and basically no manager is heavily responsible for player recruiting. Of course there are varying degrees of involvement for different managers in different set ups, and also varying degrees of reliance on analytics, but to think that our system is that different from most clubs is, frankly, quite ridiculous.

That Kline was a bad egg that disrupted the harmony within the club does not change the above. 

Most football clubs do not have the son of their owner in charge of 'analytics' (whatever you think that means), recruitment policy and delivery, which makes, in my books, FFC a special case.  We are not 'all clubs', we are a unique football club which has similarities with every other football clubs in that it plays competitive games, holds registration of players, has supporters, a ground etc., etc.     

You are correct in that most clubs do not have the son of the owner in charge of recruitment. I am not at all convinced that Khan Jr. is the right person for that position. However, that is a problem with the man, not the system.

'Analytics' is supposed to refer to the dreaded 'Money ball' methods that is supposedly used by Tony (and with Kline in charge previously). This is of course used to some extent by all professional football clubs in addition to traditional scouting. In case that was unclear.

I think it is a problem with both the man and the system since TK uses his own (with Kline) system of selection which is the reason he tries to push it so hard on the Club.  I don't expect you to understand why that is a serious flaw in the whole set or take my word for it, but the evidence is clearly there that it is a serious deficiency which needs to be corrected.

What evidence is clearly there? Is it the fact that we have failed so far in the PL?

The evidence is about life under the Khans.
Every season under them divides into fractional periods driven by big changes to either head coaches/managers or to playing staff.  There have been few periods of consolidation or settlement toward an upward trend.   Even our successful last season was almost patently one of two halves, a familiar pattern no matter who has been in charge of the team.  That to me is indicative of a problem at the top of the Club where decision makers have to have everybody onside. We keep repeating the same routine without ever figuring out where the problem of seasonal inconsistency really lies and that suggests there hasn't been much co-ordination of effort or drive to cohesion behind the scenes in the upper echelons where it should really show its mettle.  Good leadership starts at the top and filters down to the minnions because the goal becomes simplified and everybody pulls in the same direction or is very conspicuous because they are not pulling the right way.  The divided opinion as to where the fault with this season lies demonstrates that the Club has a big problem about leadership.  If Ranieri can change that then he would certainly be a godsend.

Changes in personnel don't necessarily signify instability. Watford have got through 9 managers in the past 5 years and they have been on a steady upward trend since.

Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on November 19, 2018, 11:46:33 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 19, 2018, 11:40:25 AM

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 19, 2018, 11:21:42 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 19, 2018, 10:13:09 AM

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 19, 2018, 10:09:01 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 19, 2018, 09:47:42 AM

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 19, 2018, 09:30:33 AM
This is really all that needs to be said regarding our transfer system I believe. All clubs use analytics nowadays, and basically no manager is heavily responsible for player recruiting. Of course there are varying degrees of involvement for different managers in different set ups, and also varying degrees of reliance on analytics, but to think that our system is that different from most clubs is, frankly, quite ridiculous.

That Kline was a bad egg that disrupted the harmony within the club does not change the above. 

Most football clubs do not have the son of their owner in charge of 'analytics' (whatever you think that means), recruitment policy and delivery, which makes, in my books, FFC a special case.  We are not 'all clubs', we are a unique football club which has similarities with every other football clubs in that it plays competitive games, holds registration of players, has supporters, a ground etc., etc.     

You are correct in that most clubs do not have the son of the owner in charge of recruitment. I am not at all convinced that Khan Jr. is the right person for that position. However, that is a problem with the man, not the system.

'Analytics' is supposed to refer to the dreaded 'Money ball' methods that is supposedly used by Tony (and with Kline in charge previously). This is of course used to some extent by all professional football clubs in addition to traditional scouting. In case that was unclear.

I think it is a problem with both the man and the system since TK uses his own (with Kline) system of selection which is the reason he tries to push it so hard on the Club.  I don't expect you to understand why that is a serious flaw in the whole set or take my word for it, but the evidence is clearly there that it is a serious deficiency which needs to be corrected.

What evidence is clearly there? Is it the fact that we have failed so far in the PL?

The evidence is about life under the Khans.
Every season under them divides into fractional periods driven by big changes to either head coaches/managers or to playing staff.  There have been few periods of consolidation or settlement toward an upward trend.   Even our successful last season was almost patently one of two halves, a familiar pattern no matter who has been in charge of the team.  That to me is indicative of a problem at the top of the Club where decision makers have to have everybody onside. We keep repeating the same routine without ever figuring out where the problem of seasonal inconsistency really lies and that suggests there hasn't been much co-ordination of effort or drive to cohesion behind the scenes in the upper echelons where it should really show its mettle.  Good leadership starts at the top and filters down to the minnions because the goal becomes simplified and everybody pulls in the same direction or is very conspicuous because they are not pulling the right way.  The divided opinion as to where the fault with this season lies demonstrates that the Club has a big problem about leadership.  If Ranieri can change that then he would certainly be a godsend.

Changes in personnel don't necessarily signify instability. Watford have got through 9 managers in the past 5 years and they have been on a steady upward trend since.

The 2nd half season syndrome is also something I think we cant rule out is down to Joka.

Watford first 8 games 8 points and included 4 losses in a row
Watford first 17 games 27pts
Watford last 18 game 42 pts

Tel Aviv Firs 8 games 16 pts
Tel Aviv Last 8 games 19 pts

Fulham 15/16
First 11 games 10 Pts
Last 11 games 14 Pts

Fulham 16/17
First 23 games 36 Pts
Last 23 games 44 Pts

Fulham 17/18
First 23 games 32 Pts
Last 23 games 56 Pts

What evidence is clearly there? Is it the fact that we have failed so far in the PL?
[/quote]
The evidence is about life under the Khans.
Every season under them divides into fractional periods driven by big changes to either head coaches/managers or to playing staff.  There have been few periods of consolidation or settlement toward an upward trend.   Even our successful last season was almost patently one of two halves, a familiar pattern no matter who has been in charge of the team.  That to me is indicative of a problem at the top of the Club where decision makers have to have everybody onside. We keep repeating the same routine without ever figuring out where the problem of seasonal inconsistency really lies and that suggests there hasn't been much co-ordination of effort or drive to cohesion behind the scenes in the upper echelons where it should really show its mettle.  Good leadership starts at the top and filters down to the minnions because the goal becomes simplified and everybody pulls in the same direction or is very conspicuous because they are not pulling the right way.  The divided opinion as to where the fault with this season lies demonstrates that the Club has a big problem about leadership.  If Ranieri can change that then he would certainly be a godsend.
[/quote]

Is this really true? At all? All seasons before Joka were as far as I remember on a steady downward spiral, regardless of who was in charge. The thing with seasons of two halves were basically just the last two seasons, with Joka in the Championship. I haven't checked though, and maybe it was the same each season...

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 19, 2018, 12:31:19 PM

What evidence is clearly there? Is it the fact that we have failed so far in the PL?

The evidence is about life under the Khans.
Every season under them divides into fractional periods driven by big changes to either head coaches/managers or to playing staff.  There have been few periods of consolidation or settlement toward an upward trend.   Even our successful last season was almost patently one of two halves, a familiar pattern no matter who has been in charge of the team.  That to me is indicative of a problem at the top of the Club where decision makers have to have everybody onside. We keep repeating the same routine without ever figuring out where the problem of seasonal inconsistency really lies and that suggests there hasn't been much co-ordination of effort or drive to cohesion behind the scenes in the upper echelons where it should really show its mettle.  Good leadership starts at the top and filters down to the minnions because the goal becomes simplified and everybody pulls in the same direction or is very conspicuous because they are not pulling the right way.  The divided opinion as to where the fault with this season lies demonstrates that the Club has a big problem about leadership.  If Ranieri can change that then he would certainly be a godsend.
[/quote]

Is this really true? At all? All seasons before Joka were as far as I remember on a steady downward spiral, regardless of who was in charge. The thing with seasons of two halves were basically just the last two seasons, with Joka in the Championship. I haven't checked though, and maybe it was the same each season...
[/quote]
Fulham 13/14
First 19 games 16 Pts
Last 19 games 16 Pts

Fulham 14/15
First 23 games 28 Pts
Last 23 games 24 Pts

Fulham 15/16
First 23 games 24 Pts
Last 23 games 27 Pts

Fulham 16/17
First 23 games 36 Pts
Last 23 games 44 Pts

Fulham 17/18
First 23 games 32 Pts
Last 23 games 56 Pts

For balance the 5 seasons before Khans took over
Fulham 12/13
First 19 games 21 Pts
Last 19 games 22 Pts

Fulham 11/12
First 19 games 32 Pts
Last 19 games 20 Pts

Fulham 10/11
First 19 games 19 Pts
Last 19 games 30 Pts

Fulham 09/10
First 19 games 27 Pts
Last 19 games 19 Pts

Fulham 08/09
First 19 games 26 Pts
Last 19 games 27 Pts

Quote from: MJG on November 19, 2018, 12:38:36 PM

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 19, 2018, 12:31:19 PM

What evidence is clearly there? Is it the fact that we have failed so far in the PL?

The evidence is about life under the Khans.
Every season under them divides into fractional periods driven by big changes to either head coaches/managers or to playing staff.  There have been few periods of consolidation or settlement toward an upward trend.   Even our successful last season was almost patently one of two halves, a familiar pattern no matter who has been in charge of the team.  That to me is indicative of a problem at the top of the Club where decision makers have to have everybody onside. We keep repeating the same routine without ever figuring out where the problem of seasonal inconsistency really lies and that suggests there hasn't been much co-ordination of effort or drive to cohesion behind the scenes in the upper echelons where it should really show its mettle.  Good leadership starts at the top and filters down to the minnions because the goal becomes simplified and everybody pulls in the same direction or is very conspicuous because they are not pulling the right way.  The divided opinion as to where the fault with this season lies demonstrates that the Club has a big problem about leadership.  If Ranieri can change that then he would certainly be a godsend.

Is this really true? At all? All seasons before Joka were as far as I remember on a steady downward spiral, regardless of who was in charge. The thing with seasons of two halves were basically just the last two seasons, with Joka in the Championship. I haven't checked though, and maybe it was the same each season...
[/quote]
Fulham 13/14
First 19 games 16 Pts
Last 19 games 16 Pts

Fulham 14/15
First 23 games 28 Pts
Last 23 games 24 Pts

Fulham 15/16
First 23 games 24 Pts
Last 23 games 27 Pts

Fulham 16/17
First 23 games 36 Pts
Last 23 games 44 Pts

Fulham 17/18
First 23 games 32 Pts
Last 23 games 56 Pts
[/quote]

Thanks MJG! So, it is in fact not correct to say that Fulham has had seasons of two halves under the Khans then.

Over last ten full seasons we have had ...
3 First half of the seasons out score the second half,
6 out score the first half and one season the same in both halfs.

261 points to 285 points

Quote from: RaySmith on November 18, 2018, 11:44:28 PM

And I think most of these players could still prove to be good buys.

If you were a journo, dictating your piece over the phone to me (as in the old days), I would have written this down as 'And I think most of these players could still prove to be goodbyes'.

Quote from: Neil D on November 19, 2018, 02:25:52 PM

Quote from: RaySmith on November 18, 2018, 11:44:28 PM

And I think most of these players could still prove to be good buys.

If you were a journo, dictating your piece over the phone to me (as in the old days), I would have written this down as 'And I think most of these players could still prove to be goodbyes'.

Lol

Statistics can be presented in any number of ways and can be made to appear to substantiate or refute an argument.   People who use statistics as a part of their life should know that.

There is a very simple way of demonstrating what I claim about the Khans if anyone cares to look for it.  The clue is you don't simply divide a season into two sets of twenty three games.  It is the exact same record set used by MJG but designed to show the fragmented periods of contrast.  It works for SJ's record at Watford too showing how consistent his record is.  Any of you can find it if you want to.

One can also be so loyal to one side of a debate that any evidence or proof to the contrary will simply not bother one because they are now so plugged into their side. Which has always been my argument against democracy. Tell enough people enough times that Person or People A are to blame and if one goes along with it for long enough the views will not be altered. Just Human Nature.

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 20, 2018, 10:23:29 AM
One can also be so loyal to one side of a debate that any evidence or proof to the contrary will simply not bother one because they are now so plugged into their side. Which has always been my argument against democracy. Tell enough people enough times that Person or People A are to blame and if one goes along with it for long enough the views will not be altered. Just Human Nature.

A human nature everybody on here has.  You can dig deep or you can tread lightly.  It is understanding the significance of what you find that is the point at which we may all suffer from prior prejudices.

Quote from: toshes mate on November 20, 2018, 09:35:16 AM
Statistics can be presented in any number of ways and can be made to appear to substantiate or refute an argument.   People who use statistics as a part of their life should know that.

There is a very simple way of demonstrating what I claim about the Khans if anyone cares to look for it.  The clue is you don't simply divide a season into two sets of twenty three games.  It is the exact same record set used by MJG but designed to show the fragmented periods of contrast.  It works for SJ's record at Watford too showing how consistent his record is.  Any of you can find it if you want to.

Wouldn't it then be easier for you to present said evidence in order to support your conclusion?

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 20, 2018, 11:19:08 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 20, 2018, 09:35:16 AM
Statistics can be presented in any number of ways and can be made to appear to substantiate or refute an argument.   People who use statistics as a part of their life should know that.

There is a very simple way of demonstrating what I claim about the Khans if anyone cares to look for it.  The clue is you don't simply divide a season into two sets of twenty three games.  It is the exact same record set used by MJG but designed to show the fragmented periods of contrast.  It works for SJ's record at Watford too showing how consistent his record is.  Any of you can find it if you want to.

Wouldn't it then be easier for you to present said evidence in order to support your conclusion?

I had considered it and that was my original intention when I started the hard work to produce the evidence,  not haviing a ready made source of data.  Then I read all the responses and thought 'what the hell'.  Anyone can throw out data and make it look good (my stuff looks awful since it is hand written), but to reveal something significant takes a lot of hard work and not flippancy.

Quote from: toshes mate on November 20, 2018, 11:58:44 AM

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 20, 2018, 11:19:08 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 20, 2018, 09:35:16 AM
Statistics can be presented in any number of ways and can be made to appear to substantiate or refute an argument.   People who use statistics as a part of their life should know that.

There is a very simple way of demonstrating what I claim about the Khans if anyone cares to look for it.  The clue is you don't simply divide a season into two sets of twenty three games.  It is the exact same record set used by MJG but designed to show the fragmented periods of contrast.  It works for SJ's record at Watford too showing how consistent his record is.  Any of you can find it if you want to.

Wouldn't it then be easier for you to present said evidence in order to support your conclusion?

I had considered it and that was my original intention when I started the hard work to produce the evidence,  not haviing a ready made source of data.  Then I read all the responses and thought 'what the hell'.  Anyone can throw out data and make it look good (my stuff looks awful since it is hand written), but to reveal something significant takes a lot of hard work and not flippancy.

Fair enough, but then you might also have to accept that it does weaken the perception of you argument. Rightly or wrongly, that is just the way it is.

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 20, 2018, 12:09:53 PM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 20, 2018, 11:58:44 AM

Quote from: Sting of the North on November 20, 2018, 11:19:08 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 20, 2018, 09:35:16 AM
Statistics can be presented in any number of ways and can be made to appear to substantiate or refute an argument.   People who use statistics as a part of their life should know that.

There is a very simple way of demonstrating what I claim about the Khans if anyone cares to look for it.  The clue is you don't simply divide a season into two sets of twenty three games.  It is the exact same record set used by MJG but designed to show the fragmented periods of contrast.  It works for SJ's record at Watford too showing how consistent his record is.  Any of you can find it if you want to.

Wouldn't it then be easier for you to present said evidence in order to support your conclusion?

I had considered it and that was my original intention when I started the hard work to produce the evidence,  not haviing a ready made source of data.  Then I read all the responses and thought 'what the hell'.  Anyone can throw out data and make it look good (my stuff looks awful since it is hand written), but to reveal something significant takes a lot of hard work and not flippancy.

Fair enough, but then you might also have to accept that it does weaken the perception of you argument. Rightly or wrongly, that is just the way it is.

I have never been less than philosophical about life.  There are no winners and losers just participants.   

Quote from: MJG on November 19, 2018, 12:20:43 PM
The 2nd half season syndrome is also something I think we cant rule out is down to Joka.

Watford first 8 games 8 points and included 4 losses in a row
Watford first 17 games 27pts
Watford last 18 game 42 pts

Tel Aviv Firs 8 games 16 pts
Tel Aviv Last 8 games 19 pts

Fulham 15/16
First 11 games 10 Pts
Last 11 games 14 Pts

Fulham 16/17
First 23 games 36 Pts
Last 23 games 44 Pts

Fulham 17/18
First 23 games 32 Pts
Last 23 games 56 Pts

He was only at Watford for one year, joining in October, so a new manager meeting new players after the season has started. Personally I would expect a delayed impact in those circumstances.

Tel Aviv the difference is negligible.

At Fulham, him coming in coincides with Tony Khan taking control of transfers from Rigg.

I think these stats are useful to look at but not conclusive proof of anything, although I appreciate that's not what you're saying.

As it happens I do accept that Jokanovic had a particularly distinctive tactical style which many players needed time to adapt to. But for me that is all the more reason to let him bring in his own people, who he knows suit that style, and of course to get them in early in pre-season. In other words Tony Khan could have mitigated any 'Joka effect' but instead he has aggravated it.

Quote from: toshes mate on November 20, 2018, 11:04:08 AM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 20, 2018, 10:23:29 AM
One can also be so loyal to one side of a debate that any evidence or proof to the contrary will simply not bother one because they are now so plugged into their side. Which has always been my argument against democracy. Tell enough people enough times that Person or People A are to blame and if one goes along with it for long enough the views will not be altered. Just Human Nature.

A human nature everybody on here has.  You can dig deep or you can tread lightly.  It is understanding the significance of what you find that is the point at which we may all suffer from prior prejudices.

' Single mindedness is all very well in cows and baboons. In an animal claiming to belong to the same species as Shakespeare it is simply disgraceful' - Aldous Huxley

Only one person has ever called me 'single-minded' in my life and that was on this very forum by Devonffc.  "It's always the ones who know the least about you who judge you the most." (Anon)   

Quote from: Statto on November 20, 2018, 12:41:32 PM

Quote from: MJG on November 19, 2018, 12:20:43 PM
The 2nd half season syndrome is also something I think we cant rule out is down to Joka.

Watford first 8 games 8 points and included 4 losses in a row
Watford first 17 games 27pts
Watford last 18 game 42 pts

Tel Aviv Firs 8 games 16 pts
Tel Aviv Last 8 games 19 pts

Fulham 15/16
First 11 games 10 Pts
Last 11 games 14 Pts

Fulham 16/17
First 23 games 36 Pts
Last 23 games 44 Pts

Fulham 17/18
First 23 games 32 Pts
Last 23 games 56 Pts

He was only at Watford for one year, joining in October, so a new manager meeting new players after the season has started. Personally I would expect a delayed impact in those circumstances.

Tel Aviv the difference is negligible.

At Fulham, him coming in coincides with Tony Khan taking control of transfers from Rigg.

I think these stats are useful to look at but not conclusive proof of anything, although I appreciate that's not what you're saying.

As it happens I do accept that Jokanovic had a particularly distinctive tactical style which many players needed time to adapt to. But for me that is all the more reason to let him bring in his own people, who he knows suit that style, and of course to get them in early in pre-season. In other words Tony Khan could have mitigated any 'Joka effect' but instead he has aggravated it.

All fair and I was not trying to prove anything really, just like to put the info out there to help the discussion, along with the MAF years as well it shows I think there is no real difference in the long run how you do things. In the end the manager has the players and he has to get the best out of them. Even when we went down and had Jol, Rene and Magath, it was Magath who had the best record out of the three of them that season.

Quote from: toshes mate on November 20, 2018, 09:35:16 AM
Statistics can be presented in any number of ways and can be made to appear to substantiate or refute an argument.   People who use statistics as a part of their life should know that.

There is a very simple way of demonstrating what I claim about the Khans if anyone cares to look for it.  The clue is you don't simply divide a season into two sets of twenty three games.  It is the exact same record set used by MJG but designed to show the fragmented periods of contrast.  It works for SJ's record at Watford too showing how consistent his record is.  Any of you can find it if you want to.

I kept it simple to not complicate it. I could have done it by Transfer windows, every 15 games, but as the idea to post it initally came from your own post "Even our successful last season was almost patently one of two halves, a familiar pattern no matter who has been in charge of the team" I thought I'd do it that way.

Quote from: ..FOF.. on November 18, 2018, 11:04:31 PM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 05:16:22 PM

Quote from: ..FOF.. on November 18, 2018, 02:21:22 PM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
What nobody has satisfactorily explained is why this awful system has got us promotion?  Why Joka stuck with it. Why this squad started the season playing ok but suddenly lost their way completely.

Joka Snapchat message Mitro himself after K got thrown out by the police.

Targett also seems to be Joka's handiwork.

Joka got his way last January and then got us promoted.

It seems the board were trying to revive their own system again after the promotion.

Anyway, glad that CR is happy with the set up.

I just find the 2 "Yes" system probably counter productive.... the coach can just say No No No and then everybody panic towards the closing bell.

Maybe that was why most of our signings came on the last day.

Yes but the run had started before Mitro joined. Yes made a big difference but that wasn't the turning point. Most clubs would use this system. No coach has the time to scout and look for players. He will tell whoever needs to be told the type of players needed. Which was the problem under K who seemed to have his own ideas what the team needed.

Khan's way is to take it from a pool of data. The human factor such as player coach chemistry, player's character and values are probably not very high in priorities.

Asking the coach to explain his tactics to a a person who came from a non football background would probably be more of a time not used very well.

I think this is ignorance. Many/most sports data folks try to take in the human side of things. The problem is one's humanity is less quantifiable and therefore harder to discern by reading the numbers. They do try and do it anyway. The Khans understand they're dealing with people. They're successful businessmen and run large people driven organizations.  Pigeon holing them as just data guys is just wrong.

And they were on-board with Slavisa's footballing philosophy. That's not a difficult concept to explain to anybody. The Khans love professional sports. They're invested in it at a very personal level. Tony Khan runs a business that's mission is to understand football as best it can be. So the idea that they don't understand football, because they haven't played it a high level or just because they're coming from the United States is ridiculous.

Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on November 20, 2018, 04:15:29 PM

Quote from: ..FOF.. on November 18, 2018, 11:04:31 PM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 05:16:22 PM

Quote from: ..FOF.. on November 18, 2018, 02:21:22 PM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
What nobody has satisfactorily explained is why this awful system has got us promotion?  Why Joka stuck with it. Why this squad started the season playing ok but suddenly lost their way completely.

Joka Snapchat message Mitro himself after K got thrown out by the police.

Targett also seems to be Joka's handiwork.

Joka got his way last January and then got us promoted.

It seems the board were trying to revive their own system again after the promotion.

Anyway, glad that CR is happy with the set up.

I just find the 2 "Yes" system probably counter productive.... the coach can just say No No No and then everybody panic towards the closing bell.

Maybe that was why most of our signings came on the last day.

Yes but the run had started before Mitro joined. Yes made a big difference but that wasn't the turning point. Most clubs would use this system. No coach has the time to scout and look for players. He will tell whoever needs to be told the type of players needed. Which was the problem under K who seemed to have his own ideas what the team needed.

Khan's way is to take it from a pool of data. The human factor such as player coach chemistry, player's character and values are probably not very high in priorities.

Asking the coach to explain his tactics to a a person who came from a non football background would probably be more of a time not used very well.

I think this is ignorance. Many/most sports data folks try to take in the human side of things. The problem is one's humanity is less quantifiable and therefore harder to discern by reading the numbers. They do try and do it anyway. The Khans understand they're dealing with people. They're successful businessmen and run large people drive organizations.  Pigeon holing them as just data guys is just wrong.

And they were on-board with Slavisa's footballing philosophy. That's not a difficult concept to explain to anybody. The Khans love professional sports. They're invested in it at a very personal level. Tony Khan runs a business that's mission is to understand football as best it can be. So the idea that they don't understand football, because they haven't played it a high level or just because they're coming from the United States is ridiculous.

:plus one:

Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on November 20, 2018, 04:15:29 PM

Quote from: ..FOF.. on November 18, 2018, 11:04:31 PM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 05:16:22 PM

Quote from: ..FOF.. on November 18, 2018, 02:21:22 PM

Quote from: Lighthouse on November 18, 2018, 10:41:14 AM
What nobody has satisfactorily explained is why this awful system has got us promotion?  Why Joka stuck with it. Why this squad started the season playing ok but suddenly lost their way completely.

Joka Snapchat message Mitro himself after K got thrown out by the police.

Targett also seems to be Joka's handiwork.

Joka got his way last January and then got us promoted.

It seems the board were trying to revive their own system again after the promotion.

Anyway, glad that CR is happy with the set up.

I just find the 2 "Yes" system probably counter productive.... the coach can just say No No No and then everybody panic towards the closing bell.

Maybe that was why most of our signings came on the last day.

Yes but the run had started before Mitro joined. Yes made a big difference but that wasn't the turning point. Most clubs would use this system. No coach has the time to scout and look for players. He will tell whoever needs to be told the type of players needed. Which was the problem under K who seemed to have his own ideas what the team needed.

Khan's way is to take it from a pool of data. The human factor such as player coach chemistry, player's character and values are probably not very high in priorities.

Asking the coach to explain his tactics to a a person who came from a non football background would probably be more of a time not used very well.

I think this is ignorance. Many/most sports data folks try to take in the human side of things. The problem is one's humanity is less quantifiable and therefore harder to discern by reading the numbers. They do try and do it anyway. The Khans understand they're dealing with people. They're successful businessmen and run large people drive organizations.  Pigeon holing them as just data guys is just wrong.

And they were on-board with Slavisa's footballing philosophy. That's not a difficult concept to explain to anybody. The Khans love professional sports. They're invested in it at a very personal level. Tony Khan runs a business that's mission is to understand football as best it can be. So the idea that they don't understand football, because they haven't played it a high level or just because they're coming from the United States is ridiculous.

Joka said twice in recent interviews that he doesn't choose the players.

If it is not his choice, then there is definitely a lack of human factor involved to marry the perfect players with the coach.

Quote from: MJG on November 20, 2018, 03:00:24 PM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 20, 2018, 09:35:16 AM
Statistics can be presented in any number of ways and can be made to appear to substantiate or refute an argument.   People who use statistics as a part of their life should know that.

There is a very simple way of demonstrating what I claim about the Khans if anyone cares to look for it.  The clue is you don't simply divide a season into two sets of twenty three games.  It is the exact same record set used by MJG but designed to show the fragmented periods of contrast.  It works for SJ's record at Watford too showing how consistent his record is.  Any of you can find it if you want to.

I kept it simple to not complicate it. I could have done it by Transfer windows, every 15 games, but as the idea to post it initally came from your own post "Even our successful last season was almost patently one of two halves, a familiar pattern no matter who has been in charge of the team" I thought I'd do it that way.

Firstly: There are few methods that are not simple, and those that are more difficult are solely designed to find less obvious factors.  Secondly: You chose the method that suited your purpose. Thirdly: In my opinion you were flippant, and you cannot justify and have not justified that by this time taking a quote of mine out of context.

Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on November 20, 2018, 04:15:29 PM

I think this is ignorance. Many/most sports data folks try to take in the human side of things. The problem is one's humanity is less quantifiable and therefore harder to discern by reading the numbers. They do try and do it anyway. The Khans understand they're dealing with people. They're successful businessmen and run large people drive organizations.  Pigeon holing them as just data guys is just wrong.

And they were on-board with Slavisa's footballing philosophy. That's not a difficult concept to explain to anybody. The Khans love professional sports. They're invested in it at a very personal level. Tony Khan runs a business that's mission is to understand football as best it can be. So the idea that they don't understand football, because they haven't played it a high level or just because they're coming from the United States is ridiculous.

It isn't ignornce it is opinion, just as you are giving an opinion which suggests anyone who has bought and played Football Manager can act as a data analyst in sport.  Why not include anyone who has ever  handled a spreadsheet, or done a powerpoint presentation, or typed a letter too, or for that matter caught a glimpse of a human being being a human being.  When you start to penetrate the thought process behind your comment you begin to understand how simplistic it is. 

Quote from: toshes mate on November 21, 2018, 07:59:07 AM

Quote from: MJG on November 20, 2018, 03:00:24 PM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 20, 2018, 09:35:16 AM
Statistics can be presented in any number of ways and can be made to appear to substantiate or refute an argument.   People who use statistics as a part of their life should know that.

There is a very simple way of demonstrating what I claim about the Khans if anyone cares to look for it.  The clue is you don't simply divide a season into two sets of twenty three games.  It is the exact same record set used by MJG but designed to show the fragmented periods of contrast.  It works for SJ's record at Watford too showing how consistent his record is.  Any of you can find it if you want to.

I kept it simple to not complicate it. I could have done it by Transfer windows, every 15 games, but as the idea to post it initally came from your own post "Even our successful last season was almost patently one of two halves, a familiar pattern no matter who has been in charge of the team" I thought I'd do it that way.

Firstly: There are few methods that are not simple, and those that are more difficult are solely designed to find less obvious factors.  Secondly: You chose the method that suited your purpose. Thirdly: In my opinion you were flippant, and you cannot justify and have not justified that by this time taking a quote of mine out of context.

the method suited my purpose of showing the data following your quote which I don't believe was taken out of context. I made no comment as such in the results and left that for others to make.
I could have broken it down more and you wrote you were looking at doing something similar, I'll await those postings.

Quote from: toshes mate on November 21, 2018, 08:07:22 AM

Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on November 20, 2018, 04:15:29 PM

I think this is ignorance. Many/most sports data folks try to take in the human side of things. The problem is one's humanity is less quantifiable and therefore harder to discern by reading the numbers. They do try and do it anyway. The Khans understand they're dealing with people. They're successful businessmen and run large people drive organizations.  Pigeon holing them as just data guys is just wrong.

And they were on-board with Slavisa's footballing philosophy. That's not a difficult concept to explain to anybody. The Khans love professional sports. They're invested in it at a very personal level. Tony Khan runs a business that's mission is to understand football as best it can be. So the idea that they don't understand football, because they haven't played it a high level or just because they're coming from the United States is ridiculous.

It isn't ignornce it is opinion, just as you are giving an opinion which suggests anyone who has bought and played Football Manager can act as a data analyst in sport.  Why not include anyone who has ever  handled a spreadsheet, or done a powerpoint presentation, or typed a letter too, or for that matter caught a glimpse of a human being being a human being.  When you start to penetrate the thought process behind your comment you begin to understand how simplistic it is.

It is opinion, but I feel it's assuming a lot. Have you met the Khans and our scouting team in person? Do you know that they completely disregard human factors when choosing to sign? Do you know the ins and outs of our transfer system, and the factors that are considered when it comes to choosing a player to pursue? If the answer is no, then I feel you are making a very big jump to conclusions without the evidence to support it. I appreciate it is opinion, but like I said it's assuming a lot.

Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on November 20, 2018, 04:15:29 PM
I think this is ignorance. Many/most sports data folks try to take in the human side of things. The problem is one's humanity is less quantifiable and therefore harder to discern by reading the numbers. They do try and do it anyway. The Khans understand they're dealing with people. They're successful businessmen and run large people drive organizations.  Pigeon holing them as just data guys is just wrong.

And they were on-board with Slavisa's footballing philosophy. That's not a difficult concept to explain to anybody. The Khans love professional sports. They're invested in it at a very personal level. Tony Khan runs a business that's mission is to understand football as best it can be. So the idea that they don't understand football, because they haven't played it a high level or just because they're coming from the United States is ridiculous.

Struggling with some of the logic in this post.

Firstly this part: "Many/most sports data folks try to take in the human side of things. The problem is one's humanity is less quantifiable and therefore harder to discern by reading the numbers." Surely this is exactly what Toshes Mate is getting, that there isn't a stat for, for example, how well someone will get on with our existing players, or adapt to colder weather and a relegation battle etc, because those sorts of things are "harder to discern by reading the numbers." Ok agreed. So where's the counter-argument?

Then the second part seems to say, Khan has bought and is running a football business ergo he must understand football. Sorry but I don't follow the logic there. If I had enough money, and the inclination, I could buy the large hadron collider and spend my time walking around it with my son. It wouldn't make me an expert physicist. 

Quote from: Statto on November 21, 2018, 11:05:48 AM

Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on November 20, 2018, 04:15:29 PM
I think this is ignorance. Many/most sports data folks try to take in the human side of things. The problem is one's humanity is less quantifiable and therefore harder to discern by reading the numbers. They do try and do it anyway. The Khans understand they're dealing with people. They're successful businessmen and run large people drive organizations.  Pigeon holing them as just data guys is just wrong.

And they were on-board with Slavisa's footballing philosophy. That's not a difficult concept to explain to anybody. The Khans love professional sports. They're invested in it at a very personal level. Tony Khan runs a business that's mission is to understand football as best it can be. So the idea that they don't understand football, because they haven't played it a high level or just because they're coming from the United States is ridiculous.

Struggling with some of the logic in this post.

Firstly this part: "Many/most sports data folks try to take in the human side of things. The problem is one's humanity is less quantifiable and therefore harder to discern by reading the numbers." Surely this is exactly what Toshes Mate is getting, that there isn't a stat for, for example, how well someone will get on with our existing players, or adapt to colder weather and a relegation battle etc, because those sorts of things are "harder to discern by reading the numbers." Ok agreed. So where's the counter-argument?

Then the second part seems to say, Khan has bought and is running a football business ergo he must understand football. Sorry but I don't follow the logic there. If I had enough money, and the inclination, I could buy the large hadron collider and spend my time walking around it with my son. It wouldn't make me an expert physicist.

Out of interest, when we say 'human factors', what are we referring to here? Do we mean whether or not someone is a good bloke or not, or has a good work ethic etc.? I'm slightly confused, I feel the term is being used a bit loosely here.

Human factors are all embracing and you either accept faults are ever present or that they do not exist at all.  There can be fault about the meaningfulness of the statistic collected, the observation of it, and the recording of it.  That is why statistics embrace anomalies within the calculus used in distribution theory and formula.  An anomaly is anything that falls outside the 'normal' (some say 'expected') distribution pattern.  However, anomalies disappear from most analytics because they make life so much harder to gauge accurately.  In other words analysis is reduced to simplicity itself because the people who are likely to use it would be very quickly overcome with how complicated life really is.  Used as a supplementary tool with the real skill and knowledge of an experienced scientist, engineer, observer, technician, trade or craftperson then they assist but that is all they will ever do.  Khan Jnr believes data can go further (as in Moneyball) and that is why I believe he demonstrates the age old fault that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing when it comes to understanding what you are dealing with. 

In 2013/14 Jol achieved a points per game average (PPG) of less than unity (one point per game) prior to dismissal.  Under Meulensteen PPG was consistently below that of Jol.  Under Magath PPG was restored to Jol levels but still less than unity.  The second half of the season was marginally better under Magath.

In 2014/15 Magath was achieving less than one fifth of a point per game when he was sacked.  By the end of the season Symons was achieving just above unity having fallen away from a peak of around 1.2 achieved around January. 

In 2015/16 when Symons was dismissed he was bettering his performance of the previous season but not by very much.  Under Grant PPG dropped away slightly, a pattern followed by Gray, which held very close to unity.  By season's end Jokanovic had not improved upon either Grant or Gray performance and was noticeably less successful than Symons based on PPG.

By week 20 of 2016/17 Jokanovic's PPG was consistently less than 1.5 after a bright start.  By February it was well over 1.5 and never dropped away.

By week 20 of 2017/18  Jokanovic's PPG  was consistently below 1.5 a situation that didn't change until January.  By season's end his PPG had hit almost 2.

Just very basic research and report around the simple effects manager changes may or may not deliver.   And absolutely no bias one way or another.
 

This is not a situation where one simple factor is the cause of the malaise, much like life in general.

I think the difference we will see with CR from his comment is that he will not just bless that signing like Joka but per his comment he will approve or not, ie from what he said he has final say. I think that is the difference between Manager and First Team Coach.
He has the experience and seniority to insist on that. Tony Khan's group and Talbot's scouting will do the 'two ticks' but now there is a veto from CR, which Slav didn't have.
That was a cause of much frustration and some of his early season efforts to demonstrate how crap some people he was being foisted with were in his eyes.
I think the other key contributor to his early season struggles with new players is his poor communication skills. As Sammy James said on Fulhamish " I haven't listened to one of Slav's pressers in 18 months", neither did I for the same reason, they were indecipherable. If we with English as first language didn't get what he was saying imagine someone with French as first language? His refusal to improve his English over 2 years is the flip side of his obstinacy, which at times we admired.
So new team with lots of languages and Slav's spaghetti English supported by Parker and his one Spanish coach it is no wonder no one knew what they were supposed to be doing.
The third factor was Slav's lack of a real plan for the step up to the Prem, no taking into consideration of the strength of the opposition and the talents of the squad at his disposal. The obstinate belief in bravery being the key rather than a clear plan where everyone knows their specific roles.

Anyway CR will work with what he has for now but hopefully the good communication skills in 3 languages, tactical planning and in January the ability to control who comes in will see us right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: YoungsBitter on November 22, 2018, 06:25:28 PM
This is not a situation where one simple factor is the cause of the malaise, much like life in general.

I think the difference we will see with CR from his comment is that he will not just bless that signing like Joka but per his comment he will approve or not, ie from what he said he has final say. I think that is the difference between Manager and First Team Coach.
He has the experience and seniority to insist on that. Tony Khan's group and Talbot's scouting will do the 'two ticks' but now there is a veto from CR, which Slav didn't have.
That was a cause of much frustration and some of his early season efforts to demonstrate how crap some people he was being foisted with were in his eyes.
I think the other key contributor to his early season struggles with new players is his poor communication skills. As Sammy James said on Fulhamish " I haven't listened to one of Slav's pressers in 18 months", neither did I for the same reason, they were indecipherable. If we with English as first language didn't get what he was saying imagine someone with French as first language? His refusal to improve his English over 2 years is the flip side of his obstinacy, which at times we admired.
So new team with lots of languages and Slav's spaghetti English supported by Parker and his one Spanish coach it is no wonder no one knew what they were supposed to be doing.
The third factor was Slav's lack of a real plan for the step up to the Prem, no taking into consideration of the strength of the opposition and the talents of the squad at his disposal. The obstinate belief in bravery being the key rather than a clear plan where everyone knows their specific roles.

Anyway CR will work with what he has for now but hopefully the good communication skills in 3 languages, tactical planning and in January the ability to control who comes in will see us right.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

A well-reasoned post and I agree with you about the language point.

I'd be interested to read the full comment about Ranieri's veto because my understanding so far, based on a number of sources, is there will be no change in the manager's role in transfers. FWIW my understanding previously was that Jokanovic always had a veto as well, but a veto is meaningless if the choice is, sign the player Tony/Craig wants you to, or veto that signing and sign no-one.

Also IMO Slav's plan for the step up was perfectly reasonable and viable. I know some on here think we should just have parked the bus every week but I think that had Mawson, Anguissa, Seri et al had time to settle into this team, Jokanovic would have got us to mid-table playing the same fantastic football we saw in the Championship. Would those tactics work against Man City? No but we're not competing with Man City. We're competing with Cardiff, Huddersfield, Palace, Watford, Brighton et al and it would have worked against them.

Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on November 21, 2018, 11:00:08 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 21, 2018, 08:07:22 AM

Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on November 20, 2018, 04:15:29 PM

I think this is ignorance. Many/most sports data folks try to take in the human side of things. The problem is one's humanity is less quantifiable and therefore harder to discern by reading the numbers. They do try and do it anyway. The Khans understand they're dealing with people. They're successful businessmen and run large people drive organizations.  Pigeon holing them as just data guys is just wrong.

And they were on-board with Slavisa's footballing philosophy. That's not a difficult concept to explain to anybody. The Khans love professional sports. They're invested in it at a very personal level. Tony Khan runs a business that's mission is to understand football as best it can be. So the idea that they don't understand football, because they haven't played it a high level or just because they're coming from the United States is ridiculous.

It isn't ignornce it is opinion, just as you are giving an opinion which suggests anyone who has bought and played Football Manager can act as a data analyst in sport.  Why not include anyone who has ever  handled a spreadsheet, or done a powerpoint presentation, or typed a letter too, or for that matter caught a glimpse of a human being being a human being.  When you start to penetrate the thought process behind your comment you begin to understand how simplistic it is.

It is opinion, but I feel it's assuming a lot. Have you met the Khans and our scouting team in person? Do you know that they completely disregard human factors when choosing to sign? Do you know the ins and outs of our transfer system, and the factors that are considered when it comes to choosing a player to pursue? If the answer is no, then I feel you are making a very big jump to conclusions without the evidence to support it. I appreciate it is opinion, but like I said it's assuming a lot.

Meeting the Khans will or does achieve what, precisely?  Give you a chance to take a selfie and/or make a quick judgement that they behave like human beings?  Well surprise, surprise because that is how all human beings even those with loads of lolly behave.  What did you expect the behaviour of Gods? Perhaps the Khans just happen to be ruthless enough to make multi-billions and make sure nepotism runs in the family.  Whether that makes them good, bad or indifferent as human beings is a collosal step to take, and one that is extraordinarilty judgemental, but when the nepotism doesn't work does anyone deserve being pilloried for pointing it out? 

Quote from: toshes mate on November 23, 2018, 07:08:15 AM

Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on November 21, 2018, 11:00:08 AM

Quote from: toshes mate on November 21, 2018, 08:07:22 AM

Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on November 20, 2018, 04:15:29 PM

I think this is ignorance. Many/most sports data folks try to take in the human side of things. The problem is one's humanity is less quantifiable and therefore harder to discern by reading the numbers. They do try and do it anyway. The Khans understand they're dealing with people. They're successful businessmen and run large people drive organizations.  Pigeon holing them as just data guys is just wrong.

And they were on-board with Slavisa's footballing philosophy. That's not a difficult concept to explain to anybody. The Khans love professional sports. They're invested in it at a very personal level. Tony Khan runs a business that's mission is to understand football as best it can be. So the idea that they don't understand football, because they haven't played it a high level or just because they're coming from the United States is ridiculous.

It isn't ignornce it is opinion, just as you are giving an opinion which suggests anyone who has bought and played Football Manager can act as a data analyst in sport.  Why not include anyone who has ever  handled a spreadsheet, or done a powerpoint presentation, or typed a letter too, or for that matter caught a glimpse of a human being being a human being.  When you start to penetrate the thought process behind your comment you begin to understand how simplistic it is.

It is opinion, but I feel it's assuming a lot. Have you met the Khans and our scouting team in person? Do you know that they completely disregard human factors when choosing to sign? Do you know the ins and outs of our transfer system, and the factors that are considered when it comes to choosing a player to pursue? If the answer is no, then I feel you are making a very big jump to conclusions without the evidence to support it. I appreciate it is opinion, but like I said it's assuming a lot.

Meeting the Khans will or does achieve what, precisely?  Give you a chance to take a selfie and/or make a quick judgement that they behave like human beings?  Well surprise, surprise because that is how all human beings even those with loads of lolly behave.  What did you expect the behaviour of Gods? Perhaps the Khans just happen to be ruthless enough to make multi-billions and make sure nepotism runs in the family.  Whether that makes them good, bad or indifferent as human beings is a collosal step to take, and one that is extraordinarilty judgemental, but when the nepotism doesn't work does anyone deserve being pilloried for pointing it out?

I feel you've missed my point. I'm saying that it sounds like you take the recruitment team to have absolutely no human side, and are solely concerned with numbers and statistics, and that they are effectively robots. So my point is how can you pass that judgment on them when they are never in the public eye i.e. through media, or you've never met them in person? It is assuming a lot. I'm not slating you for claiming nepotism, and as much as I respect the Khan family for what they've done for our club I do have my doubts about Tony being thrown in at the deep end at this stage of his business career, and being a twitter user I'm not too impressed by his current silence following his insistence on claiming a lot of credit thrown about at the beginning of this season and at the end of the last. However that doesn't mean I'm going to jump to conclusions and say 'oh Tony's a useless businessman, he'll never make it' and 'Khan doesn't care about the club, hence putting his son in charge' and march to Jacksonville with pitchforks and torches. I feel that unless there is clear evidence for something it's unfair to assume so much.

Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on November 23, 2018, 04:34:57 PM
I feel you've missed my point. I'm saying that it sounds like you take the recruitment team to have absolutely no human side, and are solely concerned with numbers and statistics, and that they are effectively robots. So my point is how can you pass that judgment on them when they are never in the public eye i.e. through media, or you've never met them in person? It is assuming a lot. I'm not slating you for claiming nepotism, and as much as I respect the Khan family for what they've done for our club I do have my doubts about Tony being thrown in at the deep end at this stage of his business career, and being a twitter user I'm not too impressed by his current silence following his insistence on claiming a lot of credit thrown about at the beginning of this season and at the end of the last. However that doesn't mean I'm going to jump to conclusions and say 'oh Tony's a useless businessman, he'll never make it' and 'Khan doesn't care about the club, hence putting his son in charge' and march to Jacksonville with pitchforks and torches. I feel that unless there is clear evidence for something it's unfair to assume so much.

I haven't missed your point at all.  If the Khans wanted to be open about their business they would be open.  They'd be no security at Motspur Park or Craven Cottage beyond that required to keep the uninvited or unwelcome out.  And so how do you judge a private business?  By what it feels like when you use it, and what the products do for you as compared to the claims the business make about them.  My line on the Khans is that they want a CC fit for the monied classes, something that bring them the revenue that stops it being such a loss maker.  TK has his own business that he'll want to make as successful as he can  but do we know how his venture would stand up on its own without FFC?   SK is Chair and TK is Vice Chair - a kind of dictatorship rather than a well thought out football business.  Not much positivity there.  But they do spend lots of cash on the football club is the response.  Well, why wouldn't they since both their reputations go up if FFC go up, in a manner of speaking?  The reverse of that is they both go down with the Club and they already know what that feels like.

On the subject of data systems I do have first hand knowledge of how they are supposed to operate in practice and they do not follow TK's aspirations.  Indeed all the people I have spoken to believe it is a foolhardy step to try to make data dictate who your best fit players are before looking at them, rather than looking at best fit players and using the data to assist a decision.  The best system is one that is very flxible but that doesn't seem to fit TK's aspirations.  It certainly didn't fit CK's aspirations.

The bottom line is that the Club started this season very badly and SJ has been blamed for that.  Time will tell if Ranieri can twist TK around his Italian fngers but I will tell you this - no one on here will know about it.

Quote from: toshes mate on November 23, 2018, 04:58:02 PM

Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on November 23, 2018, 04:34:57 PM
I feel you've missed my point. I'm saying that it sounds like you take the recruitment team to have absolutely no human side, and are solely concerned with numbers and statistics, and that they are effectively robots. So my point is how can you pass that judgment on them when they are never in the public eye i.e. through media, or you've never met them in person? It is assuming a lot. I'm not slating you for claiming nepotism, and as much as I respect the Khan family for what they've done for our club I do have my doubts about Tony being thrown in at the deep end at this stage of his business career, and being a twitter user I'm not too impressed by his current silence following his insistence on claiming a lot of credit thrown about at the beginning of this season and at the end of the last. However that doesn't mean I'm going to jump to conclusions and say 'oh Tony's a useless businessman, he'll never make it' and 'Khan doesn't care about the club, hence putting his son in charge' and march to Jacksonville with pitchforks and torches. I feel that unless there is clear evidence for something it's unfair to assume so much.

I haven't missed your point at all.  If the Khans wanted to be open about their business they would be open.  They'd be no security at Motspur Park or Craven Cottage beyond that required to keep the uninvited or unwelcome out.  And so how do you judge a private business?  By what it feels like when you use it, and what the products do for you as compared to the claims the business make about them.  My line on the Khans is that they want a CC fit for the monied classes, something that bring them the revenue that stops it being such a loss maker.  TK has his own business that he'll want to make as successful as he can  but do we know how his venture would stand up on its own without FFC?   SK is Chair and TK is Vice Chair - a kind of dictatorship rather than a well thought out football business.  Not much positivity there.  But they do spend lots of cash on the football club is the response.  Well, why wouldn't they since both their reputations go up if FFC go up, in a manner of speaking?  The reverse of that is they both go down with the Club and they already know what that feels like.

On the subject of data systems I do have first hand knowledge of how they are supposed to operate in practice and they do not follow TK's aspirations.  Indeed all the people I have spoken to believe it is a foolhardy step to try to make data dictate who your best fit players are before looking at them, rather than looking at best fit players and using the data to assist a decision.  The best system is one that is very flxible but that doesn't seem to fit TK's aspirations.  It certainly didn't fit CK's aspirations.

The bottom line is that the Club started this season very badly and SJ has been blamed for that.  Time will tell if Ranieri can twist TK around his Italian fngers but I will tell you this - no one on here will know about it.

So how do you think Fulham should be operated and structured then, if you perceive the current operation to be akin to a 'dictatorship'? Being a Premier League club, we can't just sit on our hands if we're making a loss, because, you know, that's how business works, i.e. money good, loss bad, so I don't see how you can blame the club for trying to profit in the regard. Yes, I agree in some aspects it is bad, such as 55 quid a ticket for West Ham, and I agree that it's unfair for less financially well off people to have to feel the strain, and I hope the club reconsiders that, but I feel it's a very cynical view to have of the ownership to suggest that their intentions are malicious. And if you do perceive them to be malicious, well the inconvenient truth is that's modern football, and I can guarantee every single Premier League owner is trying to make money out of their ownership, otherwise they wouldn't bother. And as you say for these data people you've spoken with, who are they? Are they related to FFC?

Quote from: toshes mate on November 21, 2018, 08:07:22 AM

Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on November 20, 2018, 04:15:29 PM

I think this is ignorance. Many/most sports data folks try to take in the human side of things. The problem is one's humanity is less quantifiable and therefore harder to discern by reading the numbers. They do try and do it anyway. The Khans understand they're dealing with people. They're successful businessmen and run large people drive organizations.  Pigeon holing them as just data guys is just wrong.

And they were on-board with Slavisa's footballing philosophy. That's not a difficult concept to explain to anybody. The Khans love professional sports. They're invested in it at a very personal level. Tony Khan runs a business that's mission is to understand football as best it can be. So the idea that they don't understand football, because they haven't played it a high level or just because they're coming from the United States is ridiculous.

It isn't ignornce it is opinion, just as you are giving an opinion which suggests anyone who has bought and played Football Manager can act as a data analyst in sport.  Why not include anyone who has ever  handled a spreadsheet, or done a powerpoint presentation, or typed a letter too, or for that matter caught a glimpse of a human being being a human being.  When you start to penetrate the thought process behind your comment you begin to understand how simplistic it is.

Not sure what you're talking about really, but you are entitled to your opinion. It is as valid as any other opinion.

The Houston Astros' scouts and data folks (they're kind of crossed trained in both scouting and data analyzing), who won the World Series last year, have a character stat they try and measure by watching players umpteen times... it's called "want".  The scouts try to find out which players "want" to be major league baseball players... it's like a combo of attitude, work ethic, etc... ideally you want a team with more of these kinds of players than not, so that the team has a good character make up to lead the players who may be talented, but lack "want".  These players tend to have better professional careers. It's like trying to identify an English footballer like Gary Neville, who's not the sharpest footballer, but he has the character to  turn himself into the best right-back in England. I'm totally confidant that Tony Khan is aware of this and that his sports data business work on quantifying stats like this to help teams make better decisions about who to bring or not bring in, from the youth level to the first team. It's nothing new really, but maybe a more organized/big data way of going about it.

Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on November 21, 2018, 11:13:51 AM

Quote from: Statto on November 21, 2018, 11:05:48 AM

Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on November 20, 2018, 04:15:29 PM
I think this is ignorance. Many/most sports data folks try to take in the human side of things. The problem is one's humanity is less quantifiable and therefore harder to discern by reading the numbers. They do try and do it anyway. The Khans understand they're dealing with people. They're successful businessmen and run large people drive organizations.  Pigeon holing them as just data guys is just wrong.

And they were on-board with Slavisa's footballing philosophy. That's not a difficult concept to explain to anybody. The Khans love professional sports. They're invested in it at a very personal level. Tony Khan runs a business that's mission is to understand football as best it can be. So the idea that they don't understand football, because they haven't played it a high level or just because they're coming from the United States is ridiculous.

Struggling with some of the logic in this post.

Firstly this part: "Many/most sports data folks try to take in the human side of things. The problem is one's humanity is less quantifiable and therefore harder to discern by reading the numbers." Surely this is exactly what Toshes Mate is getting, that there isn't a stat for, for example, how well someone will get on with our existing players, or adapt to colder weather and a relegation battle etc, because those sorts of things are "harder to discern by reading the numbers." Ok agreed. So where's the counter-argument?

Then the second part seems to say, Khan has bought and is running a football business ergo he must understand football. Sorry but I don't follow the logic there. If I had enough money, and the inclination, I could buy the large hadron collider and spend my time walking around it with my son. It wouldn't make me an expert physicist.

Out of interest, when we say 'human factors', what are we referring to here? Do we mean whether or not someone is a good bloke or not, or has a good work ethic etc.? I'm slightly confused, I feel the term is being used a bit loosely here.

Human factors... like heart, desire, as you say -- "a good bloke or not".  Specifically, I know the Houston Astros scouts/data analysts focus on "want", which by their definition is a player's desire to be a major league baseball player, which encompasses things like desire, heart, work ethic, humility, etc... terribly difficult to put a number on, but it is something they try to judge and identify in players.

Quote from: Statto on November 21, 2018, 11:05:48 AM

Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on November 20, 2018, 04:15:29 PM
I think this is ignorance. Many/most sports data folks try to take in the human side of things. The problem is one's humanity is less quantifiable and therefore harder to discern by reading the numbers. They do try and do it anyway. The Khans understand they're dealing with people. They're successful businessmen and run large people drive organizations.  Pigeon holing them as just data guys is just wrong.

And they were on-board with Slavisa's footballing philosophy. That's not a difficult concept to explain to anybody. The Khans love professional sports. They're invested in it at a very personal level. Tony Khan runs a business that's mission is to understand football as best it can be. So the idea that they don't understand football, because they haven't played it a high level or just because they're coming from the United States is ridiculous.

Struggling with some of the logic in this post.

Then the second part seems to say, Khan has bought and is running a football business ergo he must understand football. Sorry but I don't follow the logic there. If I had enough money, and the inclination, I could buy the large hadron collider and spend my time walking around it with my son. It wouldn't make me an expert physicist.

I guess we'd have to agree on a definition of what "understanding football" is. Tony Khan runs a big data sports data business. So he's in the business of understanding sports, including football. No doubt he's striving to understand the game better every day. His father, at the very least, understands enough to want to own a club like Fulham, which isn't exactly the hottest investment pick if you're only in it to turn a profit. As far as billionaires go, the vast majority of them aren't invested in football... probably because they know nothing about it and see it as a crap investment. Shahid Khan at the very least understands football well enough to want to buy a team like Fulham... and probably lose more money than he'll ever get out of it.

Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on November 23, 2018, 08:15:25 PM
I guess we'd have to agree on a definition of what "understanding football" is. Tony Khan runs a big data sports data business. So he's in the business of understanding sports, including football. No doubhe's striving to understand the game better every day. His father, at the very least, understands enough to want to own a club like Fulham, which isn't exactly the hottest investment pick if you're only in it to turn a profit. As far as billionaires go, the vast majority of them aren't invested in football... probably because they know nothing about it and see it as a crap investment. Shahid Khan at the very least understands football well enough to want to buy a team like Fulham... and probably lose more money than he'll ever get out of it.

Firstly, do you know the turnover of TK's sports data venture with CK as his partner, where it is successfully in use (other than Khan owned ventures), how 'big' it is, and how successful it has been?  To use data you have to know data, how to collect it, store it, present it and manipulate it with integrity.  You can know nothing about sport to do those things - they are simply headings of columns in a spread sheet and formula which manipulates output in other columns.  The data is obtained from a major supplier in specific formats and can be imported into an appropriate spreadsheet or relational database program.  It is the data manipulation (i.e. functions and formula available in spreadsheets, databases and algorithms in computer coding languages) that appear to offers analytical scope, variation, potenbtal for money making as in Moneyball.

It is said by many who have had business success on a huge scale that you need luck on the journey.  Many say you need ruthlessness too.   Many say you have a desire right at the beginning to be on top of all others, ahead of them in thinking and action.  I cannot tell you what it takes to be Khan because business people I have met who haven't made it so big as Khan say the same things too.  He can spend £100m a year and not notice it has even left his bank because the interest on his wealth will have eclipsed that in a very short time indeed.  They own football clubs because they can.  They indulge in their family because they can.  They do what they like because they can.  If they want to fly somewhere the jet is always waiting and ready.

Quote from: toshes mate on November 24, 2018, 09:37:06 AM

Quote from: Lyle from Hangeland on November 23, 2018, 08:15:25 PM
I guess we'd have to agree on a definition of what "understanding football" is. Tony Khan runs a big data sports data business. So he's in the business of understanding sports, including football. No doubhe's striving to understand the game better every day. His father, at the very least, understands enough to want to own a club like Fulham, which isn't exactly the hottest investment pick if you're only in it to turn a profit. As far as billionaires go, the vast majority of them aren't invested in football... probably because they know nothing about it and see it as a crap investment. Shahid Khan at the very least understands football well enough to want to buy a team like Fulham... and probably lose more money than he'll ever get out of it.

Firstly, do you know the turnover of TK's sports data venture with CK as his partner, where it is successfully in use (other than Khan owned ventures), how 'big' it is, and how successful it has been?  To use data you have to know data, how to collect it, store it, present it and manipulate it with integrity.  You can know nothing about sport to do those things - they are simply headings of columns in a spread sheet and formula which manipulates output in other columns.  The data is obtained from a major supplier in specific formats and can be imported into an appropriate spreadsheet or relational database program.  It is the data manipulation (i.e. functions and formula available in spreadsheets, databases and algorithms in computer coding languages) that appear to offers analytical scope, variation, potenbtal for money making as in Moneyball.

It is said by many who have had business success on a huge scale that you need luck on the journey.  Many say you need ruthlessness too.   Many say you have a desire right at the beginning to be on top of all others, ahead of them in thinking and action.  I cannot tell you what it takes to be Khan because business people I have met who haven't made it so big as Khan say the same things too.  He can spend £100m a year and not notice it has even left his bank because the interest on his wealth will have eclipsed that in a very short time indeed.  They own football clubs because they can.  They indulge in their family because they can.  They do what they like because they can.  If they want to fly somewhere the jet is always waiting and ready.

Yeah, data manipulation is not what Moneyball is about... the exact opposite. They want accurate and precise measurements. They may fail in understanding the data or using the data well, but that's on them. They are just people like you and me.

I can't disagree with you about the Khans wealth. They are very, very wealthy. Shahid Khan has made his mark and his money, deservedly so. That is absolutely the reason why he could buy Fulham F.C. from Mohammad Al Fayed.