.... A worse set of defenders in top flight football than Ream, Odoi, Bryan and Christie? Genuine question.
Hopefully now everyone can see that no blame can be laid at the feet of Slavisa or Ranieri. If you swapped out that backline and put them in Guardiola's team or Klopp's, they'd also struggle.
What is infuriating is that, despite all of this, Tony Khan and the team could have lined up a CB and full back (left or right! Preferably both but at least one) and we would have taken points last week and this. It was clear to all from the time they sacked Slavisa that this was the case, so they've had months. Sitting, waiting on Cahill whole the points pass us by? Joke. He won't come now anyway. No one of any merit will.
What a display of ineptitude in the recruitment department. A completely unnecessary relegation (those levels of funds, on top of what we had - albeit very small squad after loans - should equal survival in semi-competent hands). All so very sad.
I agree. Same 4 players, on a different thread I gave A for effort, D for achievement.
Quote from: ByTheRiver on January 20, 2019, 06:26:41 PM
.... A worse set of defenders in top flight football than Ream, Odoi, Bryan and Christie? Genuine question.
Hopefully now everyone can see that no blame can be laid at the feet of Slavisa or Ranieri. If you swapped out that backline and put them in Guardiola's team or Klopp's, they'd also struggle.
What is infuriating is that, despite all of this, Tony Khan and the team could have lined up a CB and full back (left or right! Preferably both but at least one) and we would have taken points last week and this. It was clear to all from the time they sacked Slavisa that this was the case, so they've had months. Sitting, waiting on Cahill whole the points pass us by? Joke. He won't come now anyway. No one of any merit will.
What a display of ineptitude in the recruitment department. A completely unnecessary relegation (those levels of funds, on top of what we had - albeit very small squad after loans - should equal survival in semi-competent hands). All so very sad.
Hindsight...but yes, they are the worst I've seen, and I've watched a lot of premiere league football over the past 3 years.
Mawson wasn't the player the team should have brought in if they wanted an experienced CB. Swansea?
Apparently Chambers is a good holding mid, but it looks like the ownership group lucked into that.
MLM...good CB when paired with a better CB.
Yeah...more care should have been focused on the defensive side of the pitch before the season kicked off.
Silver lining? ... Christie, Odoi ,MLM and Bryan will at least know how to play together when they are in the championship next season.
Yeah, the effort is there. I love Odoi for that (and he'll be great for us next year in the championship) but they simply are not good enough. That's not their fault. They do what they can, some days better than others, but they are just not of the standard this league requires.
Who's fault is it? Well, you can only say whoever is in charge of recruitment.
Another point - Babel looked superb today. Still unfit but it shows again that, like the other struggling clubs who manage to pick up points, you NEED some players with pace and power upfront to trouble defences in this league. He's the only one we have and stood out, despite him not being match fit and having played in so called lesser leagues the last few years. Was there really no one else around with similar attributes, ready to come to Fulham in the summer when our stock was high? No better full back out there than Christie? I'm not looking for world beaters, just better than what we have.
Grr. Frustrated. I said before last week but we really do just need to concentrate on getting a squad together ready for the championship now. Let players go if offers come in, balance the books, maybe try to pinch a quality player or two from that division now (if they're willing to come - probably not if they are playing for a club near the top or in the playoff spots). We could sign Ronaldo and Messi at this point and we'd still go down. Let's get our house in order so that next year isn't another total disaster.
Quote from: AnOldBrownie on January 20, 2019, 06:41:34 PM
Quote from: ByTheRiver on January 20, 2019, 06:26:41 PM
.... A worse set of defenders in top flight football than Ream, Odoi, Bryan and Christie? Genuine question.
Hopefully now everyone can see that no blame can be laid at the feet of Slavisa or Ranieri. If you swapped out that backline and put them in Guardiola's team or Klopp's, they'd also struggle.
What is infuriating is that, despite all of this, Tony Khan and the team could have lined up a CB and full back (left or right! Preferably both but at least one) and we would have taken points last week and this. It was clear to all from the time they sacked Slavisa that this was the case, so they've had months. Sitting, waiting on Cahill whole the points pass us by? Joke. He won't come now anyway. No one of any merit will.
What a display of ineptitude in the recruitment department. A completely unnecessary relegation (those levels of funds, on top of what we had - albeit very small squad after loans - should equal survival in semi-competent hands). All so very sad.
Hindsight...but yes, they are the worst I've seen, and I've watched a lot of premiere league football over the past 3 years.
Mawson wasn't the player the team should have brought in if they wanted an experienced CB. Swansea?
Apparently Chambers is a good holding mid, but it looks like the ownership group lucked into that.
MLM...good CB when paired with a better CB.
Yeah...more care should have been focused on the defensive side of the pitch before the season kicked off.
Silver lining? ... Christie, Odoi ,MLM and Bryan will at least know how to play together when they are in the championship next season.
Yep, a good point indeed. Plus, a year of going up against far better, more clinical players will serve them well. It'll make for a decent defence (what a surprise that will be!) next season. It's the midfield and forwards we'll need to sort. Mitro, Cairney and Sess will all leave (100%). Johansen and McDonald have been messed around a lot so may want to go (and I think maybe out of contract). Frank and Seri will certainly not drop down and will go out on loan if no suitors appear. And who will manage us? Very much back to the drawing board :(
Quote from: ByTheRiver on January 20, 2019, 06:26:41 PM
.... A worse set of defenders in top flight football than Ream, Odoi, Bryan and Christie?
This is essentially my thoughts on today in a nutshell
People (including me at times) moan about Schurrle and Seri and others but they are a class above these four
These four, whilst all putting in really admirable effort each week, were all playing in the Championship last year and will be back there again next year, because that is just their level unfortunately
Schurrle and seri are not a class above anyone IMO. Dreadful lack of skill. RC called it experience, I call it ability.
Possibly our defence that got us relegated last time?
Is this in regards to the Spurs match? Or overall? Since we usually judge match-by-match, I'll assume the Spurs one.
What minute did they start to look terrible and crap? Or are we just pointing out 1 or 2 moments and then calling them crap as a whole?
Let's look at the crap moments, there isn't many mind you.
RWB Christie - The only time Rose got past him was in the first half, in which Christie caught up and deflected the ball out for a corner. The worst moment was when he let Nkoudou cut back on his right foot, and couldn't block the cross, which led to the goal.
RCB Odoi - For me, the only part that made me go WTF was when he raised his arms up expecting Rico to get the cross, which led to the goal. Where else was he crap? Nowhere. He was solid.
LCB Ream - The crap part was the whiff of a kick on LeMarchand's header, which led to the goal. I'd also say he wasn't goal-side on the cross to Llorente's header/shoulder in the first half.
LB Bryan - The crap part for me was the Winks goal. He should've been goal-side. Unfortunate, but it happened.
So again, where exactly were those defenders crap? Can't we give our players any credit ever? It's not saying they should be first choice, but guess what, lads, they are our only choice right now.
Right, they may not be PL quality, but they performed admirably against one of the best teams in the Premiere League. We kept that team to 1-0 at half, 1-1 until the 93rd minute.
I am so tired of having to fight this logic. One or two moments of crap does not mean you are crap. If those moments pile up, then yes, that's understandable. But let's give it a rest already. They played their hearts out and played well. We have got to stop this constant attacking of our own players every single match. Especially, and this is what is comical to me, against the Top 6 teams - where we're not expected to get any points. Then we're critical because the results match the prediction. Go figure.
Agree with Matt10, they did not look crap against Spurs. I agree that they are somewhere around mediocre in PL terms, but all or at least most of them could do a good job in a decently playing PL team with a couple better teammates.
Quote from: Matt10 on January 22, 2019, 06:12:58 AM
Is this in regards to the Spurs match? Or overall? Since we usually judge match-by-match, I'll assume the Spurs one.
What minute did they start to look terrible and crap? Or are we just pointing out 1 or 2 moments and then calling them crap as a whole?
Let's look at the crap moments, there isn't many mind you.
RWB Christie - The only time Rose got past him was in the first half, in which Christie caught up and deflected the ball out for a corner. The worst moment was when he let Nkoudou cut back on his right foot, and couldn't block the cross, which led to the goal.
RCB Odoi - For me, the only part that made me go WTF was when he raised his arms up expecting Rico to get the cross, which led to the goal. Where else was he crap? Nowhere. He was solid.
LCB Ream - The crap part was the whiff of a kick on LeMarchand's header, which led to the goal. I'd also say he wasn't goal-side on the cross to Llorente's header/shoulder in the first half.
LB Bryan - The crap part for me was the Winks goal. He should've been goal-side. Unfortunate, but it happened.
So again, where exactly were those defenders crap? Can't we give our players any credit ever? It's not saying they should be first choice, but guess what, lads, they are our only choice right now.
Right, they may not be PL quality, but they performed admirably against one of the best teams in the Premiere League. We kept that team to 1-0 at half, 1-1 until the 93rd minute.
I am so tired of having to fight this logic. One or two moments of crap does not mean you are crap. If those moments pile up, then yes, that's understandable. But let's give it a rest already. They played their hearts out and played well. We have got to stop this constant attacking of our own players every single match. Especially, and this is what is comical to me, against the Top 6 teams - where we're not expected to get any points. Then we're critical because the results match the prediction. Go figure.
100% agree, too many TV fans too quick to judge. They may not be pl standard but they put a shift in, tried and came up just short. Ranieri is meant to be coaching them to improve, he had a dossier on each player at interview, I cannot for the life of me see where this has happened, we just seem to have 7 defenders with no outlet should we win the ball. I have been to every match home and away and will continue to support, cheer, clap and sing my team to the 3 points on offer.
Quote from: ByTheRiver on January 20, 2019, 06:26:41 PM
.... A worse set of defenders in top flight football than Ream, Odoi, Bryan and Christie? Genuine question.
I am pretty sure no EPL team has had four players (Christie, TFM, Odoi & Chambers) that have at some stage specialised at Right-Back and a player of Christie standard was the Best Right-Back. Although, Right Back is hard position with Odoi to your Left and Schullre in front of you.
In fairiness, many Premier League defenses have had worse individuals, but in the past if a defensive is cheap it has at least been playing together for a while. These guys need another four months playing together, before they are getting clean sheets without 6 defenders being used.
Quote from: Matt10 on January 22, 2019, 06:12:58 AM
Right, [Christie, Odoi, Ream, Bryan] may not be PL quality, but they performed admirably against one of the best teams in the Premiere League. We kept that team to 1-0 at half, 1-1 until the 93rd minute.
Absolutely concur with this in the spirit it is written. These four are, by all accounts, the best we have to choose from those fit to play and we are losing games by not defending, holding the ball, and attacking adequately enough elsewhere. It is a team game and the back four are by no means our only huge weakness as a team.
Going back to the OP, they recruited 2 EPL centre backs one with CL experience. A RB with EPL experience who's played in the Europa league who has played for his country. On paper that was a good choice and sound planning. One is injured, and the others didn't fit. That fact has to negate the comments about an attempted lack of recruitment.
We can argue all day about the merits of it. Also remember that for the first time we were working in a shorter transfer window than before.
Quote from: snarks on January 22, 2019, 09:12:57 AM
Going back to the OP, they recruited 2 EPL centre backs one with CL experience. A RB with EPL experience who's played in the Europa league who has played for his country. On paper that was a good choice and sound planning. One is injured, and the others didn't fit. That fact has to negate the comments about an attempted lack of recruitment.
I agree the effort was there. We spent a fortune, after all. For me it's more about a lack of skill, experience and competence, than effort.
Our back 4 had actually done very well, most of the match, keeping the Spurs' attack at bay, but just crucial errors again.
Why couldn't we see the game out, time waste, take it into the corners?- lack of experience from the whole team.
I think thats the difference with these big clubs and with their better players. They have the ability to wear a lesser opposition down throughout the match and tire them out so that by the end the opposition players make silly mistakes.
A lesser side can match a big club for 2/3 of a match but in the final 1/3 better clubs have the better team, better subs to go in for the kill
Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk
Quote from: Statto on January 22, 2019, 09:51:27 AM
I agree the effort was there. We spent a fortune, after all. For me it's more about a lack of skill, experience and competence, than effort.
I think Mawson and Chambers were good choices given their history etc. TFM not so much considering his time at CP. Given the market who else would you have gone for at CB at the time? (not a wind up or having a go a genuine question). I say this as the point everyone is making now is EPL experience, Cahill wasn't being touted as available, and in the summer transfer window, we would probably have said really we can do better. Most of the links were with CB's outside the EPL.
Don't get me wrong I was happy ish with the recruitment at the time, not so happy now, the leader is one thing we didn't get in our dealing, but that is hindsight not at the time.
Cast the mind back to Hughes and Hangeland and then try to think of any good centre backs since they left. This problem has been with us for a good few seasons now, signings like Steerman and the Iclandic international have failed , possible the best we have seen is home grown Dan Burn.
What is the problem, why can't we find a couple of half decent central defenders.
Quote from: filham on January 22, 2019, 10:11:48 AM
Cast the mind back to Hughes and Hangeland and then try to think of any good centre backs since they left. This problem has been with us for a good few seasons now, signings like Steerman and the Iclandic international have failed , possible the best we have seen is home grown Dan Burn.
What is the problem, why can't we find a couple of half decent central defenders.
I am not sure that we have failed so much previously but rather playing a system under Joka that do no favors to central defenders. I would argue that Ream, Kalas and also Odoi (although recruited as a fullback) were more than decent defenders for the Championship for which they were recruited. I would also argue that Mawson is a more than decent PL centre back, and that both MLM and Odoi and probably Ream could do a decent job in the PL if they played in a better team with a better defense (all of them in the same defense in a weak team is not good enough it seems however). In short, I believe the problem is much more intricate than just finding a few half decent central defenders, although it would of course be great if we could upgrade our current crop.
Quote from: snarks on January 22, 2019, 10:10:17 AM
Quote from: Statto on January 22, 2019, 09:51:27 AM
I agree the effort was there. We spent a fortune, after all. For me it's more about a lack of skill, experience and competence, than effort.
I think Mawson and Chambers were good choices given their history etc. TFM not so much considering his time at CP. Given the market who else would you have gone for at CB at the time? (not a wind up or having a go a genuine question). I say this as the point everyone is making now is EPL experience, Cahill wasn't being touted as available, and in the summer transfer window, we would probably have said really we can do better. Most of the links were with CB's outside the EPL.
Don't get me wrong I was happy ish with the recruitment at the time, not so happy now, the leader is one thing we didn't get in our dealing, but that is hindsight not at the time.
I've probably already upset a few on here by banging on about it but for me it's about timing.
Chambers may well be a decent CB - we don;t know because weren't able to give him a practice environment/period with the other players because we signed him after a pre-season had finished. Mawson obviously was injured so a similar situation but out even longer.
If we'd had them in early July then I honestly reckon Jokanovic could have formed a viable CB pairing from two of Mawson, Chambers and MLM with Rico behind them and perhaps even Anguissa in front.
That would have mitigated our problems at full-back because Odoi, Sessegnon, Ream and one of MLM or Chambers would all have been potential alternates to Christie and Bryan.
Instead, we ended up replacing Jokanovic with a manager who plays 5 at the back which has just aggravated the problem.
No.
Quote from: Statto on January 22, 2019, 11:13:55 AM
Quote from: snarks on January 22, 2019, 10:10:17 AM
Quote from: Statto on January 22, 2019, 09:51:27 AM
I agree the effort was there. We spent a fortune, after all. For me it's more about a lack of skill, experience and competence, than effort.
I think Mawson and Chambers were good choices given their history etc. TFM not so much considering his time at CP. Given the market who else would you have gone for at CB at the time? (not a wind up or having a go a genuine question). I say this as the point everyone is making now is EPL experience, Cahill wasn't being touted as available, and in the summer transfer window, we would probably have said really we can do better. Most of the links were with CB's outside the EPL.
Don't get me wrong I was happy ish with the recruitment at the time, not so happy now, the leader is one thing we didn't get in our dealing, but that is hindsight not at the time.
I've probably already upset a few on here by banging on about it but for me it's about timing.
Chambers may well be a decent CB - we don;t know because weren't able to give him a practice environment/period with the other players because we signed him after a pre-season had finished. Mawson obviously was injured so a similar situation but out even longer.
If we'd had them in early July then I honestly reckon Jokanovic could have formed a viable CB pairing from two of Mawson, Chambers and MLM with Rico behind them and perhaps even Anguissa in front.
That would have mitigated our problems at full-back because Odoi, Sessegnon, Ream and one of MLM or Chambers would all have been potential alternates to Christie and Bryan.
Instead, we ended up replacing Jokanovic with a manager who plays 5 at the back which has just aggravated the problem.
True, the shorter transfer window didn't really help us either, as other clubs had to make decisions on letting players go/ be available relatively closely from the end of pre season prior to season start.
Ask the stats men. I would think...computer says no.
Quote from: Statto on January 22, 2019, 11:13:55 AM
I've probably already upset a few on here by banging on about it but for me it's about timing.
Chambers may well be a decent CB - we don;t know because weren't able to give him a practice environment/period with the other players because we signed him after a pre-season had finished. Mawson obviously was injured so a similar situation but out even longer.
If we'd had them in early July then I honestly reckon Jokanovic could have formed a viable CB pairing from two of Mawson, Chambers and MLM with Rico behind them and perhaps even Anguissa in front.
That would have mitigated our problems at full-back because Odoi, Sessegnon, Ream and one of MLM or Chambers would all have been potential alternates to Christie and Bryan.
Instead, we ended up replacing Jokanovic with a manager who plays 5 at the back which has just aggravated the problem.
This. So much this.
Quote from: ByTheRiver on January 22, 2019, 12:21:00 PM
Quote from: Statto on January 22, 2019, 11:13:55 AM
I've probably already upset a few on here by banging on about it but for me it's about timing.
Chambers may well be a decent CB - we don;t know because weren't able to give him a practice environment/period with the other players because we signed him after a pre-season had finished. Mawson obviously was injured so a similar situation but out even longer.
If we'd had them in early July then I honestly reckon Jokanovic could have formed a viable CB pairing from two of Mawson, Chambers and MLM with Rico behind them and perhaps even Anguissa in front.
That would have mitigated our problems at full-back because Odoi, Sessegnon, Ream and one of MLM or Chambers would all have been potential alternates to Christie and Bryan.
Instead, we ended up replacing Jokanovic with a manager who plays 5 at the back which has just aggravated the problem.
This. So much this.
+1
Very good post Statto.
Very much back to the drawing board :(
[/quote]
So true, and that's a big rub. I fear League 1 in short order. I know many here are saying we need to prepare for the Champ next season, but I still feel that the club should do all possible to survive this campaign. I know it's next to impossible at this point, but if FFC could survive, they could get this team 'right' during the upcoming off season. Otherwise, I see a long wait for a Prem return.....
Quote from: WindyCity on January 22, 2019, 03:26:54 PM
Very much back to the drawing board :(
So true, and that's a big rub. I fear League 1 in short order. I know many here are saying we need to prepare for the Champ next season, but I still feel that the club should do all possible to survive this campaign. I know it's next to impossible at this point, but if FFC could survive, they could get this team 'right' during the upcoming off season. Otherwise, I see a long wait for a Prem return.....
[/quote]
Why league one in short order?
Quote from: Marcel_Gecov on January 22, 2019, 03:48:55 PM
Quote from: WindyCity on January 22, 2019, 03:26:54 PM
Very much back to the drawing board :(
So true, and that's a big rub. I fear League 1 in short order. I know many here are saying we need to prepare for the Champ next season, but I still feel that the club should do all possible to survive this campaign. I know it's next to impossible at this point, but if FFC could survive, they could get this team 'right' during the upcoming off season. Otherwise, I see a long wait for a Prem return.....
Why league one in short order?
Why? Well, new coach (CR will be gone), Sess, Mitro, TC and others gone. Would be starting all over with basically a new squad and new leadership and the few 'good' players we have now will likely not be here. I recall in the last relegation FFC was very near bottom in the Champ and extremely close to going down again. I think the disappointment of a terrible Prem campaign, that had high expectations, would carry over to whatever the new squad looks like. Just, imho, a big mental mountain to climb, along with the physical/technical. Hope I'm wrong about that, but it nearly happened the last time FFC was dropped, could easily see a double relegation.
[/quote]
