I increasingly see the play-off win as a curse.
The team was not particularly stable, with key loanees.
I know there is no perfect timing but another season of building may have been better.
As it is we are going to slide back into the Championship with a less competitive squad than less than a year ago!
Discuss.
Not really, we probably would have lost Sessegnon and not signed Mitrovic permanently, so other season of great change in personnel would have happened regardless.
If's, but's and maybe's - the past is the past, you can't change it - all that matters is the future, the games we have to play, one game at a time.
In football you have to take your chances when they come along, even though our main problem was coming up with a squad of loans, and others who wanted to leave, and then not having enough time to get the necessary players in and integrate them into a team, with maybe inexperience in recrutment, and an inexperienced at Prem level manager too.
We never had a squad after Wembley
It was up to the a management to prepare from 26/5/18 to build a team - but they did FA and scrabbled around at the last minute
Out of the actual squad that gained promotion only Fredericks was already beyond recovery, and even he was arguably retainable had the huge cash amount which was to be squandered in the summer of 2018 been carved up into more useful ideas as to team building in a serious challenge for success over two years or so. Crucial mistakes were being made well before Wembley.
The truth is the Khans never really did back their coach of choice because he wasn't obsequious enough for the likes of some in the Board Room, far too sure of himself, his ability and his style. He was a straight up professional who needed a straight up professional recruitment specialist in the mould of a 'Rigg' perhaps. He wasn't the malleable type who could be manipulated as the Khans are no doubt used to and would prefer. Like CK such types are so reliable until they are not.
With such a shambles it really doesn't matter where FFC are because that outfit is going to make a dog's dinner out of anything and everything.
Quote from: RaySmith on February 06, 2019, 04:15:57 PM
If's, but's and whatever's - the past is the past, you can't change it - all that matters is the future, the games we have to play, one game at a time.
In football you have to take your chances when they come along, even though our main problem was coming up with a squad of loans, and others who wanted to leave, and then not having enough time to get the necessary players in and integrate them into a team, with maybe an inexperienced at Prem level manager too.
Precisely. You have to take the chance when it comes. There were too many loans but if we'd waited another season we'd likely have lost Sess, Cairney and Mitro before it started.
No, we were out of parachute money and would have had a really hard time competing for promotion this season. We had to take the chance when it was there, we did, and now we botched it. Most likely, now we're looking at 2-3 more years in the Champ at least, as this roster is not suited to a bounce straight back up after the guys we need to sell off/loan out.
No but I do think we've come back down too early 😁
It is never too early, you take your opportunity as soon as it arises, you cannot pick and choose, it's naive to think otherwise.
It can never be too early. We deserved to go up and our surge to the playoffs should have seen planning kick in in March/April of identifying two lists of recruits, one for Premier League and one for Championship.
The club reacted (and slowly ) to promotion instead of being proactive. The Playoffs were blamed as a reason, as was the World Cup, despite players like Rui Patricio moving during the World Cup.
We seemed content to wait for the players to come available yet still manage to panic buy, as well as creating another squad of loanees for the situation to repeat itself this summer.
The pre season was hampered by Slav working with half a squad, and this late business and waste of pre season obv stopped any team morale, bonding, team tactics , etc which caused the downfall we are experiencing.
One may also blame Slavs stubbornness, Tony's ineptitude, Shahid not holding anyone other than Slav accountable, the lack of collaboration through all management levels, the lack of on pitch leadership, the decision to rip up last years feel good team, but no, we proved ourselves as one of the top 3 teams in that division and we deserved to go up. Survival was easy if we didn't press the self destruct button time after time.
Quote from: Two Ton Ted on February 06, 2019, 03:34:37 PM
Not really, we probably would have lost Sessegnon and not signed Mitrovic permanently, so other season of great change in personnel would have happened regardless.
Agree with this.
I do not think it was too early for us to go up. It was our time. that squad would not have done another season and needed surgery
what has gone wrong is based on the scientific principle of occam's razor whuich effectively says if you do not know the absolute reason for something thenm the most obvious/likely reason is probably the reason
Or in other words we failed this time because we needed to build a well balanced squad with a blend of experienced prem players and a few gambles. we needed a completely new defence, a support striker and a tough midfielder.
Everyone knew all that.
That is not what we got, despite lavish investment it was wasted. That is whay we are failing.
How would we have done in the championship this year ?
As usual it's a very strong league, but I have not been following it much, but seems Leeds and Norwich are not as good as Wolves and Fulham were last year, football quality wise.
I think another year in the Championship would have been great, but it's too risky to aim for that, very competitive league.
Quote from: Mitrovic the warrior on February 07, 2019, 09:36:00 AM
Quote from: Two Ton Ted on February 06, 2019, 03:34:37 PM
Not really, we probably would have lost Sessegnon and not signed Mitrovic permanently, so other season of great change in personnel would have happened regardless.
Agree with this.
If we go down, I estimate we will be in a lot better position financially than before the playoffs. We will See.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on February 07, 2019, 10:06:17 AM
Quote from: Mitrovic the warrior on February 07, 2019, 09:36:00 AM
Quote from: Two Ton Ted on February 06, 2019, 03:34:37 PM
Not really, we probably would have lost Sessegnon and not signed Mitrovic permanently, so other season of great change in personnel would have happened regardless.
Agree with this.
If we go down, I estimate we will be in a lot better position financially than before the playoffs. We will See.
you are never better off going down because of the long term consequences. If you guarantee immediate return to top flight the marginal effect may appear to be a better situation but in any rational world, the best bet is to be ion the prem.
I don't think it was too early. The gap becomes bigger by the year. Three clubs fall out of the league every year. There is no blue print to survive. We've not gone yet though although it doesn't look good.
Quote from: nose on February 07, 2019, 10:13:14 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on February 07, 2019, 10:06:17 AM
Quote from: Mitrovic the warrior on February 07, 2019, 09:36:00 AM
Quote from: Two Ton Ted on February 06, 2019, 03:34:37 PM
Not really, we probably would have lost Sessegnon and not signed Mitrovic permanently, so other season of great change in personnel would have happened regardless.
Agree with this.
If we go down, I estimate we will be in a lot better position financially than before the playoffs. We will See.
you are never better off going down because of the long term consequences. If you guarantee immediate return to top flight the marginal effect may appear to be a better situation but in any rational world, the best bet is to be ion the prem.
Clarification: If we go down, I estimate we will be in a lot better position financially than before the Championship playoffs 10th May 2018, but we will see. Of course, we are better off in the Premier League, but Championship with Parchate Payments is the next best thing.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on February 07, 2019, 10:17:18 AM
Quote from: nose on February 07, 2019, 10:13:14 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on February 07, 2019, 10:06:17 AM
Quote from: Mitrovic the warrior on February 07, 2019, 09:36:00 AM
Quote from: Two Ton Ted on February 06, 2019, 03:34:37 PM
Not really, we probably would have lost Sessegnon and not signed Mitrovic permanently, so other season of great change in personnel would have happened regardless.
Agree with this.
If we go down, I estimate we will be in a lot better position financially than before the playoffs. We will See.
you are never better off going down because of the long term consequences. If you guarantee immediate return to top flight the marginal effect may appear to be a better situation but in any rational world, the best bet is to be ion the prem.
Clarification: If we go down, I estimate we will be in a lot better position financially than before the Championship playoffs 10th May 2018, but we will see. Of course, we are better off in the Premier League, but Championship with Parchate Payments is the next best thing.
Yes, it's important to get promoted again before the payments run out.
Quote from: Newry FFC on February 06, 2019, 08:27:15 PM
It can never be too early. We deserved to go up and our surge to the playoffs should have seen planning kick in in March/April of identifying two lists of recruits, one for Premier League and one for Championship.
The club reacted (and slowly ) to promotion instead of being proactive. The Playoffs were blamed as a reason, as was the World Cup, despite players like Rui Patricio moving during the World Cup.
We seemed content to wait for the players to come available yet still manage to panic buy, as well as creating another squad of loanees for the situation to repeat itself this summer.
The pre season was hampered by Slav working with half a squad, and this late business and waste of pre season obv stopped any team morale, bonding, team tactics , etc which caused the downfall we are experiencing.
One may also blame Slavs stubbornness, Tony's ineptitude, Shahid not holding anyone other than Slav accountable, the lack of collaboration through all management levels, the lack of on pitch leadership, the decision to rip up last years feel good team, but no, we proved ourselves as one of the top 3 teams in that division and we deserved to go up. Survival was easy if we didn't press the self destruct button time after time.
Good summary
Quote from: The Rational Fan on February 07, 2019, 10:17:18 AM
Quote from: nose on February 07, 2019, 10:13:14 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on February 07, 2019, 10:06:17 AM
Quote from: Mitrovic the warrior on February 07, 2019, 09:36:00 AM
Quote from: Two Ton Ted on February 06, 2019, 03:34:37 PM
Not really, we probably would have lost Sessegnon and not signed Mitrovic permanently, so other season of great change in personnel would have happened regardless.
Agree with this.
If we go down, I estimate we will be in a lot better position financially than before the playoffs. We will See.
you are never better off going down because of the long term consequences. If you guarantee immediate return to top flight the marginal effect may appear to be a better situation but in any rational world, the best bet is to be ion the prem.
Clarification: If we go down, I estimate we will be in a lot better position financially than before the Championship playoffs 10th May 2018, but we will see. Of course, we are better off in the Premier League, but Championship with Parchate Payments is the next best thing.
Even economically I think it's doubtful we'll be in a better position. As I've probably bored everyone by repeating, my personal expectation is that if we sell players, we'll get a lot less for Sessegnon (1 yr left on contract) and Cairney (consistently crocked) than some expect, and the other players will generally go for less than their book value, meaning it actually costs us money to get rid in accounting terms. The parachute payment probably won't even cover the total cost of bringing in some new, bang average championship-level players to replace them and paying the inflated wages of those we can't offload.
Aside from economics, selling our current players means another squad overhaul. So probably another round of overrated players from the French second tier, another pre-season with only a handful of players and another terrible start to a season with a team of strangers. Not to mention the Khans success rate with managers is 1 in every 3-4, so we've likely got to go through another 2-3 Magath/Mulensteen types before we get another Jokanovic.
And of course in the highly unlikely event we go back up, the new players won't be PL standard so we'll have to repeat the process all over again.
Quote from: Baszab on February 06, 2019, 04:46:21 PM
We never had a squad after Wembley
It was up to the a management to prepare from 26/5/18 to build a team - but they did FA and scrabbled around at the last minute
As usual, totally incompetent.
Quote from: toshes mate on February 06, 2019, 05:04:45 PM
Out of the actual squad that gained promotion only Fredericks was already beyond recovery, and even he was arguably retainable had the huge cash amount which was to be squandered in the summer of 2018 been carved up into more useful ideas as to team building in a serious challenge for success over two years or so. Crucial mistakes were being made well before Wembley.
The truth is the Khans never really did back their coach of choice because he wasn't obsequious enough for the likes of some in the Board Room, far too sure of himself, his ability and his style. He was a straight up professional who needed a straight up professional recruitment specialist in the mould of a 'Rigg' perhaps. He wasn't the malleable type who could be manipulated as the Khans are no doubt used to and would prefer. Like CK such types are so reliable until they are not.
With such a shambles it really doesn't matter where FFC are because that outfit is going to make a dog's dinner out of anything and everything.
Perfect analysis.
I thought we went up at the perfect time. If we had been promoted the previous season, when Reading beat us in the playoffs, I think it would have been too early and we'd have come straight back down.
That's why this season has been so especially disappointing. The club should have been in a similar position to Wolves but instead we find ourselves looking at almost certain relegation because the lessons of the past have not been learned.
Quote from: Camel Club on February 07, 2019, 01:41:05 PM
I thought we went up at the perfect time. If we had been promoted the previous season, when Reading beat us in the playoffs, I think it would have been too early and we'd have come straight back down.
That's why this season has been so especially disappointing. The club should have been in a similar position to Wolves but instead we find ourselves looking at almost certain relegation because the lessons of the past have not been learned.
I feel a lack of foresight and vision has had a lot to do with it unfortunately.
Not at all, one of our good managers from the past, like Tigana, Roy, McDonald or Alec Stock given a free hand and £100million to spend on players of his choice would have worked wonders with the remains of that Wembley squad.
The timing was ok just the management that was adrift.
We were over committed with the big picture trying to buy Wembley after the play off finals, looking at the riverside development. Then thought that throwing big money at the playing side would solve it late in the day. Players and manager seemed to be given the summer off instead of working like hell from May to build and drill a new defence.
Quote from: In the Enclosure on February 07, 2019, 09:54:54 PM
Players and manager seemed to be given the summer off instead of working like hell from May to build and drill a new defence.
Very true. For all TK's tweets about working hard just after Christmas, the real work should have been done in May/early June as you say. Instead i can still recall all those photos of him in Las Vegas with the lads.
Quote from: Statto on February 07, 2019, 10:17:14 PM
Quote from: In the Enclosure on February 07, 2019, 09:54:54 PM
Players and manager seemed to be given the summer off instead of working like hell from May to build and drill a new defence.
Very true. For all TK's tweets about working hard just after Christmas, the real work should have been done in May/early June as you say. Instead i can still recall all those photos of him in Las Vegas with the lads.
Good grief what utter nonsense !
How many games did we play last season, 45 ? 46? More ?
And you are suggesting that they should have had no break and go straight in to pre season ! FFS
Quote from: Riversider on February 07, 2019, 10:22:07 PM
Quote from: Statto on February 07, 2019, 10:17:14 PM
Quote from: In the Enclosure on February 07, 2019, 09:54:54 PM
Players and manager seemed to be given the summer off instead of working like hell from May to build and drill a new defence.
Very true. For all TK's tweets about working hard just after Christmas, the real work should have been done in May/early June as you say. Instead i can still recall all those photos of him in Las Vegas with the lads.
Good grief what utter nonsense !
How many games did we play last season, 45 ? 46? More ?
And you are suggesting that they should have had no break and go straight in to pre season ! FFS
Players should have trained harder in May, except of course those that may have trained too hard in May and got injuried during the season (including Betts, TFM, Fossey, Bryan, Mawson, Ream, McDonald, Anguissa, Cairney, Schullre, Ryan Sessegnon, Atiye and Kebano).
If only Rico, Odoi, MLM, Chambers, Seri and Mitro trained harder in May, things would be different. 049:gif
Quote from: Riversider on February 07, 2019, 10:22:07 PM
Quote from: Statto on February 07, 2019, 10:17:14 PM
Quote from: In the Enclosure on February 07, 2019, 09:54:54 PM
Players and manager seemed to be given the summer off instead of working like hell from May to build and drill a new defence.
Very true. For all TK's tweets about working hard just after Christmas, the real work should have been done in May/early June as you say. Instead i can still recall all those photos of him in Las Vegas with the lads.
Good grief what utter nonsense !
How many games did we play last season, 45 ? 46? More ?
And you are suggesting that they should have had no break and go straight in to pre season ! FFS
If anyone wanted to impersonate you on here Riversider, it would be bloody easy. All your posts consist of the same 3 ingredients:
(1) fundamental misunderstanding of the post you're replying to
(2) exclamation marks
(3) expletives and/or insults
To illustrate what I mean, here is an example of (2) and (3):
"Not quite mate!!!!! I'm talking about Tony Khan! Not the players. Are you suggesting Tony Khan played 46 games last season??!?!? Good grief what utter nonsense FFS!!!!!"
Tony Khans gets scouting reports, here is a comedy scouting report on Pele. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4fzeK3SQa4
Definitely not too early. Can't stomach the thought of Terry & Grealish holding hands as they skip over the hallowed turf with the trophy.
