It's all getting a bit silly, now we have VAR.
In the France game last night, the missed penalty was retaken because VAR showed that the GK had moved a couple of feet forward at the moment the ball was kicked. Correct according to the new rules, yes, but to have to stand ON the line surely reduces the chances of keeping the ball out even if the shot is parried. No goalkeeper stays on his goal-line in normal play.
There was one renowned goalkeeper who made a lot of penalty saves but was often several yards off his line by the time the ball was kicked. Can't remember who it was but he played for one of the top clubs.
I think a better idea would perhaps be to have a red line maybe 12 in / 30 cm in front of the goal-line and make the goalkeeper stand in the narrow band thus created.
Many of the new rules now in force are much too complicated, and still open to interpretation and disagreement - especially the new hand ball rule which still baffles me.
The other bit that is silly is what got the goalkeeper to move in the first place. The women taking the penalty slowly walked jogged and then did a hesitation step to act like she was about to strike the ball. Given the way players take the penalty kicks now with all their theatrics before they kick the ball really gives no goalkeeper a chance at all.
It always was the rule that the goalie should be on the line so they are only going back to the original ruling.
My two favourites for changes are 1keepers holding on to the ball for too long. The rule has been changed several times over the years but now it is part of modern football. 2. Throw ins to be taken properly. Too many are quick pushes rather than the proper over the head action
Now they get away with it.
Quote from: Fulham1959 on June 18, 2019, 04:25:46 PM
It's all getting a bit silly, now we have VAR.
In the France game last night, the missed penalty was retaken because VAR showed that the GK had moved a couple of feet forward at the moment the ball was kicked. Correct according to the new rules, yes, but to have to stand ON the line surely reduces the chances of keeping the ball out even if the shot is parried. No goalkeeper stays on his goal-line in normal play.
There was one renowned goalkeeper who made a lot of penalty saves but was often several yards off his line by the time the ball was kicked. Can't remember who it was but he played for one of the top clubs.
I think a better idea would perhaps be to have a red line maybe 12 in / 30 cm in front of the goal-line and make the goalkeeper stand in the narrow band thus created.
Many of the new rules now in force are much too complicated, and still open to interpretation and disagreement - especially the new hand ball rule which still baffles me.
Surely the rule of the keeper not being allowed to move forward has been in place for quite some time, and is not a new rule? Or am I confusing things? It also makes perfect sense in my opinion. I don't think this is one of the rules that is either complicated or open to interpretation (as opposed to the mentioned hand ball rule), and I cannot understand how having an additional line would solve anything since you would still have to assess if they are too far forward at the moment the ball is kicked.
My favourite for change/enhancement would be for throw ins to be taken from the spot where the ball went out.
Yes the rule is long-standing. It's just that VAR has brought it to the fore.
But my point is that by standing ON the line you are halfway over the line yourself, already, which is not helpful if you are trying to stop the ball from going over the line.
The number of foul throw-ins not penalised has long bugged me and it is infuriating that players are not taught how to do it properly. Feet behind the line / feet to stay on the ground / ball thrown from behind the head. What's so difficult ? I'd be furious, as a manager, if one of my players was penalised for a foul throw - but so many get missed anyway. If they were penalised, then the players would soon get it right.
Of course the keeper has to stand on the goal line until the ball is kicked , what other restriction would be possible, not within a metre of the penalty spot perhaps.
The keepers are being penalised for moving AFTER the ball has been kicked - but how else are they supposed to have a chance of saving it.
This is only being picked up because of VAR.
After tonight's fiasco in the Scotland Argentina game, and all the other decisions in this World Cup, I think VAR is going to ruin the game, along with the emphaisis on enforcing every rule to the pedantic letter, only enabled by VAR.
goalkeeper has always had to be on the line. they just hav not enforced it
this means that scoring is more difficult. i hope this return to the real rules will redress the balance.
Quote from: RaySmith on June 19, 2019, 10:25:51 PM
The keepers are being penalised for moving AFTER the ball has been kicked - but how else are they supposed to have a chance of saving it.
This is only being picked up because of VAR.
After tonight's fiasco in the Scotland Argentina game, and all the other decisions in this World Cup, I think VAR is going to ruin the game, along with the emphaisis on enforcing every rule to the pedantic letter, only enabled by VAR.
They are allowed to move after the ball is kicked, so if it is still penalised then it is not a VAR problem but a referee problem. If they on the contrary moved forward before the ball was kicked, then VAR is working as intended, although one may think that if it is not visible to the referees without a replay, then maybe it should be deemed as too close to call.
Quote from: Fulham1959 on June 18, 2019, 04:50:02 PM
by standing ON the line you are halfway over the line yourself, already, which is not helpful if you are trying to stop the ball from going over the line.
Quote from: RaySmith on June 19, 2019, 10:25:51 PM
The keepers are being penalised for moving AFTER the ball has been kicked - but how else are they supposed to have a chance of saving it.
The Nigeria keeper moved (a) completely off the line (b) before the ball was kicked.
My understanding is that
(a) had she kept just one foot on the line, with the rest of her body in front of it, she'd still have been treated as "on the line" and she'd have been fine (ie, there's no reason for the keeper to stand "halfway" into the goal)
(b) had she actually have moved completely off the line AFTER (rather than before) the ball was kicked, she'd also have been fine
Just watched the highlights for Scotland v Argentina. Same thing as before, ref says goalie left the line yet it's so close a call I don't see how they could call it. Very unfair in my mind.
From what I saw, the Scottish goalkeeper was given clear instructions before the FIRST penalty, so can hardly complain.
Having said that, the rule needs rethinking. I wish I could remember the goalkeeper who used to be almost on the 6-yard line when saving, and was 'never' penalised (see my opening post).
i think the rule now says one foot has to be on the line at the point of strike, but its all rubbish. the rule is what it is just VAR now highlights it, refs and linesman have a hard task spotting that one without VAR.
Interestingly in the prem VAR wont be used for that purpose and it will be left to the onfield referees and linesman.
Quote from: Fulham1959 on June 20, 2019, 10:10:34 AM
From what I saw, the Scottish goalkeeper was given clear instructions before the FIRST penalty, so can hardly complain.
Having said that, the rule needs rethinking. I wish I could remember the goalkeeper who used to be almost on the 6-yard line when saving, and was 'never' penalised (see my opening post).
Are you proposing that goalkeepers should be allowed to move forward? How far then? All the way? If not, how would this solve anything? Or do you want penalties to be much harder to score from? I guess I just don't understand your point, sorry.
As far back as I can recall the goalkeeper has to be on the line and not move their feet until the ball is kicked. The modification as I understood it is for one foot to remain on the line until the ball is kicked. The issue is really about the point in time the ball is kicked which is also apparent in the offside law. With a high speed camera (i.e. slow-mo action) it is relatively easy to determine the point the ball moves off the penalty spot, but with normal cameras it is very hard to tell.
regardless of the rules I think we all want the rules to be clear and consistently applied. As far as i was concened the ref explained to the keeper what was required and it seemed to me she had moved way to early as most of them do so not problem expect that the ref should have seen it and not needed Var...also will they use var for encroachment too. They should!
Quote from: keithh on June 18, 2019, 04:49:08 PM
My favourite for change/enhancement would be for throw ins to be taken from the spot where the ball went out.
Also, when it's a corner, part of the ball being in the quadrant. Do those few inches really make a difference? (Oh err missus)
Quote from: Sting of the North on June 20, 2019, 10:33:08 AM
Quote from: Fulham1959 on June 20, 2019, 10:10:34 AM
From what I saw, the Scottish goalkeeper was given clear instructions before the FIRST penalty, so can hardly complain.
Having said that, the rule needs rethinking. I wish I could remember the goalkeeper who used to be almost on the 6-yard line when saving, and was 'never' penalised (see my opening post).
Are you proposing that goalkeepers should be allowed to move forward? How far then? All the way? If not, how would this solve anything? Or do you want penalties to be much harder to score from? I guess I just don't understand your point, sorry.
No. I think a goalkeeper should be able to stand in front of the line, but just in front, hence my idea in the opening post.
It's all a matter of degree, though, and therein lies the problem. Hard to solve.
Quote from: Fulham1959 on June 20, 2019, 01:48:22 PM
Quote from: Sting of the North on June 20, 2019, 10:33:08 AM
Quote from: Fulham1959 on June 20, 2019, 10:10:34 AM
From what I saw, the Scottish goalkeeper was given clear instructions before the FIRST penalty, so can hardly complain.
Having said that, the rule needs rethinking. I wish I could remember the goalkeeper who used to be almost on the 6-yard line when saving, and was 'never' penalised (see my opening post).
Are you proposing that goalkeepers should be allowed to move forward? How far then? All the way? If not, how would this solve anything? Or do you want penalties to be much harder to score from? I guess I just don't understand your point, sorry.
No. I think a goalkeeper should be able to stand in front of the line, but just in front, hence my idea in the opening post.
It's all a matter of degree, though, and therein lies the problem. Hard to solve.
Ok, got it thanks. But then my question is, how often do someone score from a penalty because the goalkeeper wasn't allowed to stay a further inch or so out. Do you often see blocked penalties that is deemed to be just marginally over the line in a review? Because I don't think that it is often at all. And as someone else pointed out, you don't have to stand halfway inside the goal (but merely not entirely in front of the line) so as long as you actually block the shot (in this case at least keeps if from going further forward) the ball should never cross the line, unless you for some reason decided to either place yourself behind the line or you dove backwards. Also, in this regard it should be noted that the ball has to be entirely across the line for the goal to stand.
I see what you mean, but I don't agree that there is a problem with the current rules. I am however not too positive to the use of VAR in those situations. It is a controlled situation and the referees knows what is going to happen. As such, they should be able to make the call without VAR. I don't mean that they will always get it right (since obviously it is easier with VAR), but it should be close enough to not matter. I don't think this should be as hard as offsides, since you have so many moving parts in offside situations. I do think VAR should be used even on penalties if there is any uncertainty of whether the ball actually crossed the line however, but I would like to see VAR limited as much as possible.
Quote from: love4ffc on June 20, 2019, 04:22:12 AM
Just watched the highlights for Scotland v Argentina. Same thing as before, ref says goalie left the line yet it's so close a call I don't see how they could call it. Very unfair in my mind.
Yes, I agree. If that keeper had moved a fraction of a second later she would still have saved the penalty , she gained no advantage by moving when she did.
Var is not eliminating controversy.
The penalty thing won't be used in the premiership next year.
Also a goalkeeper tends to move their weight so they can spring (and if you've tried it you need to go forward first), it now means they will either a) start behind the line so they can step forward to push off, or b) not dive at all as they have no power to do it.
Quote from: snarks on June 21, 2019, 09:19:23 AM
The penalty thing won't be used in the premiership next year.
That is the VAR element but the rule change remains. My one complaint about the rule change is that it should also outlaw the taker from hesitating, or doing similar fancy things during their run-up.
One of those parts of the game where you would hope that common sense / ref's judgement would apply. Retake only if it is obvious that the goalie made significant movement from the line.
Also agree with Snarks's comment - the penalty taker should have a clean shot and not try and obtain an unfair advantage by clowning around in the lead-up to the shot.
A Penalty is exactly that........ A penalty against the offending team so why make it easier for them?
Of course the goalie (like everyone else) is looking for an advantage by bending the rules or even cheating but its quiet simple you have to wait until the balls kicked.
Whats with all the sympathy with goalkeepers? If you move you are cheating and now they can't get away with it like they used too.
My understanding is that when the women's tournament started, there was no VAR for the goalkeeper's line, that it is unfair to introduce its use after the tournament had commenced. Second, penalty takers are getting more outrageous and inventive with their stutter steps, hesitation moves, stop/start antics before the ball is actually kicked. Yet it's the goal keeper who gets penalised for being an inch or two over the line before the ball is struck? Almost no goalie gets called for this infraction during games. So goal keepers get acclimated to taking a step or two. All of sudden there's a camera there and games are decided on infractions of a rule that has, for all intents and purposes, proven to be more of a scofflaw than not over the years. I don't think that's right. And what will happen in penalty shootouts now? Goalies will get sent off and field players will be minding the net.
Penalties are given for everyday 'deliberate'* fouls that occur in the penalty area. They are not special cases other than the fact they occur in that area. To limit goalkeepers to special requirements whilst not limiting the kicker to run up and shoot is simple nonsense. The referee has always had the option to have the kick retaken if they believe the goalkeeper has breached the rules when saving a kick, or making the kicker retake the penalty if they feel they have breached the rules when scoring from a kick. To pretend to make the sport better by inventing reasons to have VAR is demeaning the game.
(*Soon to be if the ball strikes any part of the arm, if the arm is in a position deemed not to be 'natural' ... you couldn't make it up, IMO).