https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/48913138
I'll believe it when I see it.
Elliot is all but gone, Sess. can't be far away from a transfer, so who is the next of our youngsters in the pipeline to be snatched away from us.
Will we ever again see young players in our team like Haynes,Robson, Jezzard, Macedo,Cohen, Mullery, Earl, Barrat, Callaghan, Sean Davis, etc.
We only have ourselves to blame I suppose for advertising him last year.. well... one game.. oh I don't know!!
Quote from: Milo on July 08, 2019, 09:53:12 PM
We only have ourselves to blame I suppose for advertising him last year.. well... one game.. oh I don't know!!
Nope. We gave him minutes to try to persuade him to stay. Football teams scout the youth teams, so they'd have known him.
He's an ungrateful twit and I hope he drops into obscurity a la Hyndman.
He comes across as a caricature of all Jack Grealish's worst attributes, amplified substantially, with none of his redeeming characteristics, such as talent (yet). If he was wearing the white shirt I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he'll soon grow up a bit, given he's only 16. But otherwise, he's not one it would be hard to say goodbye to at this stage. It's hard to imagine us singing "he's one of our own" about Elliott, unless we're all going to start shaving lines into our hair and listening to grime.
If he does not want to stay he can go. Easy as that. Very disappointing I know but if his heart aint in the club then that is it.
Thank you and good night
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Yes there's no best wishes from me I'm afraid.
Off you go to Scouseland you unloyal sod, see you turning out for Leyton Orient in a few years.🙋
I think he has had his head turned and been very poorly advised. There is an inevitability about a club like Fulham eventually losing its outstanding talent but this kid has everything to prove. I concur totally with Statto's observations.
To be fair didn't we poach him from QPR in the first place
I couldn't care less about how he looks and whether he comes across as cocky. Not everyone is alike, and he just turned 16. He doesn't make the rules here, and owes us no more than we owe all the youngsters coming through. I don't blame the club when they don't offer a contract to a youth or when they don't extend a contract. I also don't blame the players when they decide that their future lies elsewhere. As long as they honor their contracts, and behaves professionally while at the club then I have got no problem with it, since it's all part of the game. I have not seen anything that makes me believe that Elliott has not behaved professionally during his time with us.
With that said, I will be very disappointed if (when?) he leaves, but would leave it at that, and of course wish him well. Except when playing us.
Anyone know how much compensation we're due? Might go towards the academy bringing on some youngsters who want to wear our shirt.
What is the point of having an Academy. We have invested millions over the years only for the "big" clubs to snatch them away for peanuts. Elliott will join the vast stockpile that these clubs have. He will spend his development in the youth teams & out on loan. He will never really be able to call himself a Liverpool player. Is he better than Roberts, Hyndman, Dembele? Those 3 have hardly become World Class.
Elliott, forgotten & never to be remembered.
Quote from: grandad on July 09, 2019, 09:45:10 AM
What is the point of having an Academy. We have invested millions over the years only for the "big" clubs to snatch them away for peanuts. Elliott will join the vast stockpile that these clubs have. He will spend his development in the youth teams & out on loan. He will never really be able to call himself a Liverpool player. Is he better than Roberts, Hyndman, Dembele? Those 3 have hardly become World Class.
Elliott, forgotten & never to be remembered.
Agree. We need better compensation.
Quote from: grandad on July 09, 2019, 09:45:10 AM
What is the point of having an Academy. We have invested millions over the years only for the "big" clubs to snatch them away for peanuts. Elliott will join the vast stockpile that these clubs have. He will spend his development in the youth teams & out on loan. He will never really be able to call himself a Liverpool player. Is he better than Roberts, Hyndman, Dembele? Those 3 have hardly become World Class.
Elliott, forgotten & never to be remembered.
A bit tough on the modern young Fulham fan to think that they will never have memories of Elliot like I have of Tosh Chamberlin, but then on second thoughts who could possibly match our Tosh.
Quote from: Sting of the North on July 09, 2019, 09:21:03 AM
I couldn't care less about how he looks and whether he comes across as cocky. Not everyone is alike, and he just turned 16. He doesn't make the rules here, and owes us no more than we owe all the youngsters coming through. I don't blame the club when they don't offer a contract to a youth or when they don't extend a contract. I also don't blame the players when they decide that their future lies elsewhere. As long as they honor their contracts, and behaves professionally while at the club then I have got no problem with it, since it's all part of the game. I have not seen anything that makes me believe that Elliott has not behaved professionally during his time with us.
With that said, I will be very disappointed if (when?) he leaves, but would leave it at that, and of course wish him well. Except when playing us.
Have to agree with Grandad's post below and have said the same things in the past.If you have an academy to develop youngsters but when you get one with promise they get taken by one of the big clubs for nothing more than small change. There is a risk that they will not develop but for the sake of a few million, nothing to the likes of Liverpool etc, but a lot cheaper than the 40/50+ mill they have to fork out for a proven player.
You occasionally have a player who will give the club some loyalty as Ryan Sess has done or left with players who no one is sure they will cut it and when they do they get snapped up by these clubs for relatively small fees when their first professional contract runs down, as in the the case of Ryan Sess. Basically the whole thing stinks, the paper today quoted an example of Man City doing this for another 16 year old and will have to pay compensation of about 4 mill, nothing to this Club which is equivalent to less than 2 months salary for the top players.
In the end if you cannot develop a youngster and then see him make difference to your team or earn a decent sum of money for them you have to ask the question, why have an academy? Look at Brentford who closed theirs.
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on July 09, 2019, 08:36:12 AM
Yes there's no best wishes from me I'm afraid.
Off you go to Scouseland you unloyal sod, see you turning out for Leyton Orient in a few years.🙋
None from me either. He can do one as far as I'm concerned. Lets hope we screw a decent sum out of LFC
The Brentford model is an interesting one.
Their academy was costing £2.5m to run and the competition from other London clubs more often than not meant that the promising ones would get snapped up elsewhere rather than turn professional and graduate to their first team.
So they closed it 3 years ago and switched the focus to picking up 17 to 20 year-olds who have been released by Premier League academies to try and bring them along via a B-team.
Has it worked?
Last season, four B-teamers played for the first team, more than the number of homegrown players who had made their debuts in any one season in over a decade.
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Quote from: Sting of the North on July 09, 2019, 09:21:03 AM
I couldn't care less about how he looks and whether he comes across as cocky. Not everyone is alike, and he just turned 16. He doesn't make the rules here, and owes us no more than we owe all the youngsters coming through. I don't blame the club when they don't offer a contract to a youth or when they don't extend a contract. I also don't blame the players when they decide that their future lies elsewhere. As long as they honor their contracts, and behaves professionally while at the club then I have got no problem with it, since it's all part of the game. I have not seen anything that makes me believe that Elliott has not behaved professionally during his time with us.
With that said, I will be very disappointed if (when?) he leaves, but would leave it at that, and of course wish him well. Except when playing us.
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He's turning down Real and PSG tho. Is he mental?
Quote from: Burt on July 09, 2019, 01:21:06 PM
The Brentford model is an interesting one.
Their academy was costing £2.5m to run and the competition from other London clubs more often than not meant that the promising ones would get snapped up elsewhere rather than turn professional and graduate to their first team.
So they closed it 3 years ago and switched the focus to picking up 17 to 20 year-olds who have been released by Premier League academies to try and bring them along via a B-team.
Has it worked?
Last season, four B-teamers played for the first team, more than the number of homegrown players who had made their debuts in any one season in over a decade.
The same manager then moved onto Villa and has done a similar thing there. He pretty much let the whole PL2/u23 squad go at the end of last season.
It wasnt about money at Villa or Brentford, apparently his view is that he wants a full on second team that has players that can step up at any time to replace a 1st team player.
He didnt want a bunch of kids that will be ready to step up at some point. He simply isnt bothered about developing from within.
Quote from: Burt on July 09, 2019, 01:21:06 PM
The Brentford model is an interesting one.
Their academy was costing £2.5m to run and the competition from other London clubs more often than not meant that the promising ones would get snapped up elsewhere rather than turn professional and graduate to their first team.
So they closed it 3 years ago and switched the focus to picking up 17 to 20 year-olds who have been released by Premier League academies to try and bring them along via a B-team.
Has it worked?
Last season, four B-teamers played for the first team, more than the number of homegrown players who had made their debuts in any one season in over a decade.
An interesting point. So many issues if everyone took that route. Like the limited chances for youngsters in the first place.
Difficult to add something into a contract. Only way I could see anything working would be to change the compensation rules to pay market value, with market value arrived at by an independent body. I.e if Harvey is supposedly worth 15m - the club gets 15m or 80% of any sell on fee??
Definitely need a fairer comp scheme otherwise the whole academy model is going to struggle. Why spend all your time training a youngster when the big clubs come in and take them.
ESPN is reporting that Fulham get a fee from Liverpool for Elliott. If that is true what is everyone going on about?
If Fulham moved him on and got something for him...both parties are happy.
Liverpool is a much bigger club than Fulham at the moment. In two years we may get him back on loan.
Quote from: Sir Craven on July 09, 2019, 09:13:40 AM
To be fair didn't we poach him from QPR in the first place
Didn't know that. Seems odd to chastise him for moving from Fulham to Liverpool. Hell, since I'm a fan of English football I hope Harvey has a crap ton of success and helps England win the world cup in 7 years (They'll have a better chance than my USA)
Quote from: AnOldBrownie on July 09, 2019, 08:52:08 PM
ESPN is reporting that Fulham get a fee from Liverpool for Elliott. If that is true what is everyone going on about?
If Fulham moved him on and got something for him...both parties are happy.
Liverpool is a much bigger club than Fulham at the moment. In two years we may get him back on loan.
Quote from: Sir Craven on July 09, 2019, 09:13:40 AM
To be fair didn't we poach him from QPR in the first place
Didn't know that. Seems odd to chastise him for moving from Fulham to Liverpool. Hell, since I'm a fan of English football I hope Harvey has a crap ton of success and helps England win the world cup in 7 years (They'll have a better chance than my USA)
"At the moment"
You must be the biggest optimist on this site with that one. Love it! :005: :54:
Quote from: AnOldBrownie on July 09, 2019, 08:52:08 PM
ESPN is reporting that Fulham get a fee from Liverpool for Elliott. If that is true what is everyone going on about?
Yes we either agree a fee with them, or if a figure can't be agreed, it goes to tribunal. Obviously Liverpool won't offer anything more than they think would be awarded at tribunal. I think the complaint from other posters is, the tribunal fee is never as high as the fee selling club would demand. Maybe for Elliott we'll get £1m at tribunal, whereas we may well have demanded £10m if he was signed to professional contract, which is what we got for Roberts at a similar age. Then of course there's the other issue, albeit not relevant here, that when a player goes to non-English club you get even less under the FIFA system (eg £500k from Celtic for Dembele).
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on July 09, 2019, 09:17:29 PM
Quote from: AnOldBrownie on July 09, 2019, 08:52:08 PM
ESPN is reporting that Fulham get a fee from Liverpool for Elliott. If that is true what is everyone going on about?
If Fulham moved him on and got something for him...both parties are happy.
Liverpool is a much bigger club than Fulham at the moment. In two years we may get him back on loan.
Quote from: Sir Craven on July 09, 2019, 09:13:40 AM
To be fair didn't we poach him from QPR in the first place
Didn't know that. Seems odd to chastise him for moving from Fulham to Liverpool. Hell, since I'm a fan of English football I hope Harvey has a crap ton of success and helps England win the world cup in 7 years (They'll have a better chance than my USA)
"At the moment"
You must be the biggest optimist on this site with that one. Love it! :005: :54:
In 1974 Manchester United was relegated.
In 1999 Manchester City was in Division One (isn't that the championship?)
Leceister City won the premiere league
At some point Fulham may very well be bigger than Liverpool (I didn't say it would be in my lifetime)
I wish him all the luck in the world.
Just like I did with Freddy Adu.
If there's any team i couldn't feel sorry for it's QPR, but the lack of compensation they will get for Harvey Elliott is so wrong that "my dislike of the Hoops" is exceeded by "my sense of the injustice against them". My guess is if Harvey Elliott is worth £50m, the club that developed him for 8 years get less than a million. That is WRONG!
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 10, 2019, 01:37:42 AM
If there's any team i couldn't feel sorry for it's QPR, but the lack of compensation they will get for Harvey Elliott is so wrong that "my dislike of the Hoops" is exceeded by "my sense of the injustice against them". My guess is if Harvey Elliott is worth £50m, the club that developed him for 8 years get less than a million. That is WRONG!
His profile on the Fulham site says "Signed from QPR at a very young age" so it does not seem that QPR can have much of a claim in this case but your general point is fair.
For example, I thought we were very unfair to Maidstone over Chris Smalling (even though he was not on a contract) paying them only a few thousand and then making many millions with the sale to Man Utd.
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 10, 2019, 02:08:39 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 10, 2019, 01:37:42 AM
If there's any team i couldn't feel sorry for it's QPR, but the lack of compensation they will get for Harvey Elliott is so wrong that "my dislike of the Hoops" is exceeded by "my sense of the injustice against them". My guess is if Harvey Elliott is worth £50m, the club that developed him for 8 years get less than a million. That is WRONG!
His profile on the Fulham site says "Signed from QPR at a very young age" so it does not seem that QPR can have much of a claim in this case but your general point is fair.
For example, I thought we were very unfair to Maidstone over Chris Smalling (even though he was not on a contract) paying them only a few thousand and then making many millions with the sale to Man Utd.
What exact age did he join Fulham?
He never kicked a ball at QPR I believe.
There's s pic on the net of him in Fulham strip aged about 8,so its us that developed him,all this we poached him nonsense, you'd think he was a Salmon or whatever.😝
Football is a harsh business and we all know it and I'm not worrying about the club getting done down as we've done it as a club ,so now we are on the the recurving end.tough!
Is he being hyped up a bit too much now that he
is going to Liverpool?
I've never seen him play,has he performed better than say Fossey,Riley and co in Academy side.
Quote from: Mince n Tatties on July 10, 2019, 06:25:11 AM
He never kicked a ball at QPR I believe.
There's s pic on the net of him in Fulham strip aged about 8,so its us that developed him,all this we poached him nonsense, you'd think he was a Salmon or whatever.😝
Teaches me never to listen to QPR fans.
Quote from: Statto on July 09, 2019, 09:17:47 PM
Quote from: AnOldBrownie on July 09, 2019, 08:52:08 PM
ESPN is reporting that Fulham get a fee from Liverpool for Elliott. If that is true what is everyone going on about?
Yes we either agree a fee with them, or if a figure can't be agreed, it goes to tribunal. Obviously Liverpool won't offer anything more than they think would be awarded at tribunal. I think the complaint from other posters is, the tribunal fee is never as high as the fee selling club would demand. Maybe for Elliott we'll get £1m at tribunal, whereas we may well have demanded £10m if he was signed to professional contract, which is what we got for Roberts at a similar age. Then of course there's the other issue, albeit not relevant here, that when a player goes to non-English club you get even less under the FIFA system (eg £500k from Celtic for Dembele).
Not necessarily true. Liverpool may offer close or slightly more than could be offered at a tribunal. Firstly, they don't have to bother with legal costs of the case. Secondly, it's better PR not to go through a tribunal.
Quote from: SWSixer on July 09, 2019, 11:52:02 PM
I wish him all the luck in the world.
Just like I did with Freddy Adu.
Freddie Adu. What became of him?
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 10, 2019, 02:08:39 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 10, 2019, 01:37:42 AM
If there's any team i couldn't feel sorry for it's QPR, but the lack of compensation they will get for Harvey Elliott is so wrong that "my dislike of the Hoops" is exceeded by "my sense of the injustice against them". My guess is if Harvey Elliott is worth £50m, the club that developed him for 8 years get less than a million. That is WRONG!
His profile on the Fulham site says "Signed from QPR at a very young age" so it does not seem that QPR can have much of a claim in this case but your general point is fair.
For example, I thought we were very unfair to Maidstone over Chris Smalling (even though he was not on a contract) paying them only a few thousand and then making many millions with the sale to Man Utd.
Thought we gave them 25 tracksuits. Or was that Zat Knight?
Quote from: JoelH5 on July 10, 2019, 08:43:12 AM
Quote from: Statto on July 09, 2019, 09:17:47 PM
Quote from: AnOldBrownie on July 09, 2019, 08:52:08 PM
ESPN is reporting that Fulham get a fee from Liverpool for Elliott. If that is true what is everyone going on about?
Yes we either agree a fee with them, or if a figure can't be agreed, it goes to tribunal. Obviously Liverpool won't offer anything more than they think would be awarded at tribunal. I think the complaint from other posters is, the tribunal fee is never as high as the fee selling club would demand. Maybe for Elliott we'll get £1m at tribunal, whereas we may well have demanded £10m if he was signed to professional contract, which is what we got for Roberts at a similar age. Then of course there's the other issue, albeit not relevant here, that when a player goes to non-English club you get even less under the FIFA system (eg £500k from Celtic for Dembele).
Not necessarily true. Liverpool may offer close or slightly more than could be offered at a tribunal. Firstly, they don't have to bother with legal costs of the case. Secondly, it's better PR not to go through a tribunal.
Not sure there's any bad "PR" from going to tribunal, nor can I see it costing much to go through I process which I suspect involves a single decision or hearing that representatives may not even physically attend (£20k?)... And of course both points cut both ways (Liverpool may offer less than a tribunal would award because they know Fulham also want to avoid the "worse PR" and legal costs of going to tribunal)
However in any case, presumably we can both agree on the fundamental point that a tribunal fee, or whatever Liverpool offer, will be a lot less than we'd demand if we had Elliott on a 3yr contract
Quote from: BigbadBillyMcKinley on July 10, 2019, 09:25:30 AM
Quote from: Apprentice to the Maestro on July 10, 2019, 02:08:39 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 10, 2019, 01:37:42 AM
If there's any team i couldn't feel sorry for it's QPR, but the lack of compensation they will get for Harvey Elliott is so wrong that "my dislike of the Hoops" is exceeded by "my sense of the injustice against them". My guess is if Harvey Elliott is worth £50m, the club that developed him for 8 years get less than a million. That is WRONG!
His profile on the Fulham site says "Signed from QPR at a very young age" so it does not seem that QPR can have much of a claim in this case but your general point is fair.
For example, I thought we were very unfair to Maidstone over Chris Smalling (even though he was not on a contract) paying them only a few thousand and then making many millions with the sale to Man Utd.
Thought we gave them 25 tracksuits. Or was that Zat Knight?
I think the tracksuit story was the rumour at the time. Smalling's Wikipedia entry says £10,000 plus possible further payments. Either way, not very much. We could at least played a pre-season friendly there. I think that Maidstone have been in financial difficulties since then.
Quote From David I
1
Difficult to add something into a contract. Only way I could see anything working would be to change the compensation rules to pay market value, with market value arrived at by an independent body. I.e if Harvey is supposedly worth 15m - the club gets 15m or 80% of any sell on fee??
Definitely need a fairer comp scheme otherwise the whole academy model is going to struggle. Why spend all your time training a youngster when the big clubs come in and take them.
Eminately sensible suggestion,however, I think the big clubs love the rules just as they are so they can cherry pick the academies.
Something really does need to be done though.
Not sure it's on this thread, but, Darren Gough on Talk Sport suggested he may well stay with Liverpool for a while but then will be sold for up to 90 million,,,,, he is that good.
Quote from: Fernhurst on July 10, 2019, 12:09:10 PM
Not sure it's on this thread, but, Darren Gough on Talk Sport suggested he may well stay with Liverpool for a while but then will be sold for up to 90 million,,,,, he is that good.
I find these statements ridiculous. Injury, attitude, drugs, there are so many reasons why a young player will not fulfil their potential.
Quote from: Two Ton Ted on July 10, 2019, 12:57:08 PM
Quote from: Fernhurst on July 10, 2019, 12:09:10 PM
Not sure it's on this thread, but, Darren Gough on Talk Sport suggested he may well stay with Liverpool for a while but then will be sold for up to 90 million,,,,, he is that good.
I find these statements ridiculous. Injury, attitude, drugs, there are so many reasons why a young player will not fulfil their potential.
What exactly is he basing that on? Has he seen him train for months? Coached him?
Darren Gough the drunken sex pest from Talk nonsense😵
Can't help but wonder what the circumstances around this is and whether we shot ourselves in the foot or not with the way we approached him and giving him playing time so early on without having him tied down to a longer contract.
I know ambitious people can simply be impatient but even that can be managed if you know the player well enough, earn their trust and they have belief in the coaching staff to get them to their desired level.
I'm not sure I get the point in playing someone at 15 and what it ever achieves apart from headlines. Does not to little good to the club's bottom line.
There's also issues around the contractual situation of our young players. So often we do nothing with them or fail to tie them down. Why? What's their ambition level and why aren't we showing similar ambition in showing our support for them.
Our academy is meant to be one of the best in the country. Lose dembele to Celtic and he gets bought for 19 million. Lose Roberts early on and he goes all over the place as with hyndman.. where's the perspective we give the players.
If we keep getting rid of them it's only going to be natural that the only place they think they can be ambitious is away from the club.
Must sort this key component of running a successful club and academy out. Otherwise it simply defeats the point.
This topic, and another that recently appeared about FFC losing its younger talents, got me thinking about the football academy business, how it earns its living and how it makes money. There is surprisingly little information about academies, their costs, their reputations, and their benefits or otherwise to football talents either within football and the football authorities or from parents and players who have used them. There is, as a certain football boss might say, a remarkable absence of statistical data, or, indeed any data. I did however find some research done by a father who was trying to find the most suitable football academy for his son, the costs and the potential success rates. This man has conducted his own research and produced a table of success weighted outcomes for over eighty EFL clubs in 2017/18. The research is quite detailed but only as far as the information available allows, and that, as the father warns in his abstract, is down to the amazing lack of data made publicly available.
The father's table shows the top club academies were the usual suspects (the Manchester PL clubs and the London PL clubs etc.), with Fulham down in 22nd place, below clubs such as Middlesbrough, Charlton, Reading and some others. The table shows FFC to have about a third of the outcome success rate of the top club, and about half the potential of the main bulk of the top ten. After that the range narrows into a competitive band where there seems to be much less difference between clubs.
It crossed my mind that if the football authorities got a little tougher on academies and a little more open and public about what these academies should and should not do, then dads and their kids wouldn't face such a difficulty in finding a suitable place to try to become a successful professional footballer without risking considerable financial outlay for low success outcomes.
