Is amongst the top 2 or 3 in terms of ability and wage bill. As pure football as Parker has us set up we lack movement in the final third and an incisive edge. Any side clocking between 60-80% possession every game need to fashion more scoring chances than we do. Too early to call for Parker to be sacked yet but if we're outside the top 6 at Xmas that is a massive underachievement given what he has at his disposal.
Earl days but we certainly havn't got off to the flying start expected, something is not right but let us not have that knee jerk reaction again that resulted in Raniera being brought in last season.
We created enough chances today to score 3 or 4 at least. Don't understand why anyone would have expected a much better start with so many new players. If we play like this we have a good chance of promotion.
Quote from: Sting of the North on September 14, 2019, 10:30:55 PM
We created enough chances today to score 3 or 4 at least. Don't understand why anyone would have expected a much better start with so many new players. If we play like this we have a good chance of promotion.
This sums up my view. Cavaleiro, Knockaert, Sessegnon and Arter completely new to the team. Bettinelli, Mawson and Johansen back from injuries and a loan.
Except for Cairney-Mitrovic, and perhaps Ream-Bryan, there's not a single player in the team who had played with the players around them before this season.
And a promising but inexperienced manager.
We've still dominated every team we've played including the best or second best team in the division yesterday.
To see people making negative judgments on here already beggars belief - although I'm directing this more at comments on other threads rather than this OP.
Quote from: Statto on September 15, 2019, 11:50:33 AM
Quote from: Sting of the North on September 14, 2019, 10:30:55 PM
We created enough chances today to score 3 or 4 at least. Don't understand why anyone would have expected a much better start with so many new players. If we play like this we have a good chance of promotion.
This sums up my view. Cavaleiro, Knockaert, Sessegnon and Arter completely new to the team. Bettinelli, Mawson and Johansen back from injuries and a loan.
Except for Cairney-Mitrovic, and perhaps Ream-Bryan, there's not a single player in the team who had played with the players around them before this season.
And a promising but inexperienced manager.
We've still dominated every team we've played including the best or second best team in the division yesterday.
To see people making negative judgments on here already beggars belief - although I'm directing this more at comments on other threads rather than this OP.
Spot On. Fulham Fans need to stop setting insane expectations, given our adequate but limited budget. The season is going reasonably well, for those of us that don't believe in Parker we must admit he's doing ok, and for those that do believe in Parker surely he can kick on from this position.
Last season, a successful season would have been getting to 36 points, which should have kept us up. This season, a successful season will be getting to 89 points (1.95 points per game), which should be enough to get us up. All we need is a three game winning streak (Wednesday, Wigan and Luton) to get us to 2 points per game after 10 games. Frankly, if we cannot get 7 to 9 points against Wednesday, Wigan and Luton, then we have to wonder if we are ready to play premier league anyway.
Like last season we lacked a little chemistry and cohesion at the start of the season, and we also dropped points. But unlike last season, we are drawing the games we should have won (i.e. Cardiff 19/20 and WBA) instead of losing them (e.g. Cardiff 17/18 and Hudderfield 17/18), which means we aren't giving our competitors three points.
Give me Parker any time over someone like Houghton all day long because I think he would be the Khan's choice if they get rid of scotty!
>>Spot On. Fulham Fans need to stop setting insane expectations, given our adequate but limited budget. The season is going reasonably well<<
Really??? We have the biggest wage bill and one of the best 2 squads in the division.... expectation for Parker to deliver promotion with no excuses is certainly not "unrealistic "
Come on ,give me strength! Football doesnt work like that and there are never any guarantees. One goalkeeping error away from 3 points and total domination of supposedly one of the best teams in the division. Carry on as we are and we will get it right. We are 3 points off second place and other teams are not looking forward to playing us,you can be sure of that !!
It is trite to quote wage bills and paper squad strength in any sport. A coach, trainer or teacher can start with the world's worse 'material' and turn it into something half decent if you have the ability to bring out whatever talent there is. Likewise you can start will the world's best and turn it into a nightmare.
It takes two to tango whatever the 'game' is. Partnerships in life are as random as any other event you can care to name because no one can possibly know what happens next, but we can all hazard a guess. In the short term some of our guesses will prove accurate and over a longer term some other guesses will appear to be closer to the mark. Partners working together in an essential relationship will try to reduce the risk of damage to either since to do otherwise is the road to failure.
Khan Jnr's set up ambition is to achieve promotion over a forty six game season. His employees will know that expectation and will hope to be given maximum tolerance over shorter term measures. In 2918/19 a lack of tolerance by our owners operated in much the way it has done every time they have used it bringing abject failure to turn the tide in their favour. There is a moral about partnerships to be found in that record and you either learn it off by heart or you continue to miss the point and destroy whatever you already have.
FWIIW I see the partnerships showing positive signs of improvement from match one, but they are still fragile and searching for better solutions. They shows no signs of falling apart or at odds with themselves. There are weaknesses in the whole which, for all I know, were recognised from day one, and are still being negotiated towards a better outcome. There have probably been several opinions about solving those weaknesses and no doubt modifications are tried and evaluated along the road to resolution, since tinkering here can sometimes disturb something no quite right elsewhere. What we do know is that whilst you can fix things under your control, you cannot fix the outcomes of matches. All you can do is reduce the risk of failure to a point where success is much more probable. Calm and patience improves chances of reducing risk; agitation and unease increase risk exponentially.
Will we achieve promotion this season? Only a super being would know and he, she, it, ain't telling.
I'm a tad surprised that people think our start was expected and is exempt from criticism. We've had a rather meh start, dropped a lot of points already and slowly pushing us into high pressure must win games going into the back end of the season. I think it will get better but I'm not convinced we walk into top 4 like others think. Our fixtures haven't been a hard start and we've just about kept up with the pack but thats not the start we should expect from a squad we have, and the money we're spending. We need to start converting cheap draws into wins or we won't be top 2 and thats the aim. We also need to be converting home advantage into wins too but again, I'm not convinced we'll greatly change and with all due respect to history, I can't see us going on a ridiculously long win streak/unbeaten run again so early points in the season is a big deal for top 2.
Quote from: colinwhite on September 17, 2019, 09:59:20 AM
Come on ,give me strength! Football doesnt work like that and there are never any guarantees. One goalkeeping error away from 3 points and total domination of supposedly one of the best teams in the division. Carry on as we are and we will get it right. We are 3 points off second place and other teams are not looking forward to playing us,you can be sure of that !!
Yes football does work like that - if you're the manager with one of the best sides with biggest wage budget then you take accountability for results. It all works out over a season - and if your player makes an error and as a manager you've picked that player, ultimately that is down to the you. I'm not calling for Parkers head but expectation of success is on his head and don't think the Khan's won't act if they deem he's underachieving come the Xmas period. Things aren't disastrous - but they're not great either ... we're 5 off the automatics after 7 games. We're dominating games in terms of possession but not punishing sides outside the Millwall match - personally I think that is partly due to the overly slow build up that means the massive majority of our chances come against packed defences, so we need to score the perfect goal or a spectacular one. Nobody wants hoofball but it's not too much to think that a quicker transition into attack may help.
You are mixing up 2 different concepts.Of course SP is responsible for results. A wage bill or an abundance of good players doesnt however guarantee results,and in particular not straight away. We are all frustrated by the draw,but its looking pretty good to me. SP is doing an excellent job and lets all hope he can get that little bit of luck that was lacking on saturday. If we had had that we would have scored 4 or 5 !!!!
Quote from: colinwhite on September 17, 2019, 10:24:53 AM
You are mixing up 2 different concepts.Of course SP is responsible for results. A wage bill or an abundance of good players doesnt however guarantee results,and in particular not straight away. We are all frustrated by the draw,but its looking pretty good to me. SP is doing an excellent job and lets all hope he can get that little bit of luck that was lacking on saturday. If we had had that we would have scored 4 or 5 !!!!
A group of top players for the division on big wages is the owners giving the manager the tools to deliver promotion - don't for a minute think that's not what the Khan's have targeted with the backing they've given - expectation IS there for Parker to deliver that ... and his slow slow & slower tempo of play I believe is flawed and partly why we're not converting dominance to goals - with the exception of the Millwall game.
Quote from: colinwhite on September 17, 2019, 10:24:53 AM
You are mixing up 2 different concepts.Of course SP is responsible for results. A wage bill or an abundance of good players doesnt however guarantee results,and in particular not straight away. We are all frustrated by the draw,but its looking pretty good to me. SP is doing an excellent job and lets all hope he can get that little bit of luck that was lacking on saturday. If we had had that we would have scored 4 or 5 !!!!
With all due respect, if I'm the powers that be and read we're 10th and haven't been beating Forest, Barnsley or consistently picking up points at home, I'm going to be having stern words with Parker about expectations.
Don't get me wrong I WANT Parker to succeed - I like passing football, just with a little more flair and tempo as we showed under Slav. I hated the direct rubbish under Ranieri, cannot abide what Warnock & Pulis serve up.
The up-coming next 7 games (in order of current position of opposition as opposed to date order) sees us take on the sides now in 3rd, 9th, 13th, 16th, 17th, 21st & 24th. We've dropped too many points already, so need to be looking at a minimum of 14 points from those matches. Pressure and expectation is part & parcel of football - I'm sure Parker knows what's expected & the Khan's have made that clear.
Quote from: FFC1987 on September 17, 2019, 10:49:17 AM
Quote from: colinwhite on September 17, 2019, 10:24:53 AM
You are mixing up 2 different concepts.Of course SP is responsible for results. A wage bill or an abundance of good players doesnt however guarantee results,and in particular not straight away. We are all frustrated by the draw,but its looking pretty good to me. SP is doing an excellent job and lets all hope he can get that little bit of luck that was lacking on saturday. If we had had that we would have scored 4 or 5 !!!!
With all due respect, if I'm the powers that be and read we're 10th and haven't been beating Forest, Barnsley or consistently picking up points at home, I'm going to be having stern words with Parker about expectations.
Do you really believe that expectations are not already set very clearly? And do you also believe that the Khan's are idiots looking at the table and results and ignoring all other context? If so, I hope you are wrong, although past behaviour suggests you may be right.
Quote from: Sting of the North on September 17, 2019, 11:04:31 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on September 17, 2019, 10:49:17 AM
Quote from: colinwhite on September 17, 2019, 10:24:53 AM
You are mixing up 2 different concepts.Of course SP is responsible for results. A wage bill or an abundance of good players doesnt however guarantee results,and in particular not straight away. We are all frustrated by the draw,but its looking pretty good to me. SP is doing an excellent job and lets all hope he can get that little bit of luck that was lacking on saturday. If we had had that we would have scored 4 or 5 !!!!
With all due respect, if I'm the powers that be and read we're 10th and haven't been beating Forest, Barnsley or consistently picking up points at home, I'm going to be having stern words with Parker about expectations.
Do you really believe that expectations are not already set very clearly? And do you also believe that the Khan's are idiots looking at the table and results and ignoring all other context? If so, I hope you are wrong, although past behaviour suggests you may be right.
But the contexts there. As I've already said, we've had quite a nice start of fixtures on paper and have thrown away points to the extent that we're now 10th in a pack and look vulnerable in all but one match really. I think we know expectations have been set, obviously, but it would seem from other posters that they think this is a good start which simply isn't true. I don't think the Khans are idiots, not at all, but I see them pumping money, into a talented squad and we don't seem to be getting the results required.
Quote from: FFC1987 on September 17, 2019, 11:09:01 AM
Quote from: Sting of the North on September 17, 2019, 11:04:31 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on September 17, 2019, 10:49:17 AM
Quote from: colinwhite on September 17, 2019, 10:24:53 AM
You are mixing up 2 different concepts.Of course SP is responsible for results. A wage bill or an abundance of good players doesnt however guarantee results,and in particular not straight away. We are all frustrated by the draw,but its looking pretty good to me. SP is doing an excellent job and lets all hope he can get that little bit of luck that was lacking on saturday. If we had had that we would have scored 4 or 5 !!!!
With all due respect, if I'm the powers that be and read we're 10th and haven't been beating Forest, Barnsley or consistently picking up points at home, I'm going to be having stern words with Parker about expectations.
Do you really believe that expectations are not already set very clearly? And do you also believe that the Khan's are idiots looking at the table and results and ignoring all other context? If so, I hope you are wrong, although past behaviour suggests you may be right.
But the contexts there. As I've already said, we've had quite a nice start of fixtures on paper and have thrown away points to the extent that we're now 10th in a pack and look vulnerable in all but one match really. I think we know expectations have been set, obviously, but it would seem from other posters that they think this is a good start which simply isn't true. I don't think the Khans are idiots, not at all, but I see them pumping money, into a talented squad and we don't seem to be getting the results required.
Well, to clarify, hopefully they see short term results as only one aspect, and the progression of our style of play and understanding between players as another (or else they have learned nothing, which seem contrary to their transfer dealings this summer). It is 7 out of 46 games. Most of those 7 games we have been the far better team. Our results, by the way are not great but not too bad. We are there, or there about, which is something that I believe at this early stage with so many new players is something that is not too disheartening to the powers that be.
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 17, 2019, 10:15:32 AM
Quote from: colinwhite on September 17, 2019, 09:59:20 AM
Come on ,give me strength! Football doesnt work like that and there are never any guarantees. One goalkeeping error away from 3 points and total domination of supposedly one of the best teams in the division. Carry on as we are and we will get it right. We are 3 points off second place and other teams are not looking forward to playing us,you can be sure of that !!
Yes football does work like that - if you're the manager with one of the best sides with biggest wage budget then you take accountability for results.
Football
is like that, I agree, but it doesn't always
work like that in practice, and more obviously
never works for a lot of teams outside of the upper echelons of the game. The very nature that is the protection racket of the PL is the proof of that. The high investors answer to the risk of loss is to deny the lower flyers equality of opportunity to succeed. Those investors are very aware that risk must be curtailed or they will lose lots of money and even, over a more extended period of time, become the new 'Bury'.
Football results are random just as is the trajectory of a ball from a boot that may go straight into the net, go over it, or hit someone on the way diverting it almost anywhere. The role of the owners is to limit their risk of losing money and in football, that is always down to results. It is the time span of the journeys to success that tend to play havoc with all teams outside the top six to ten. The Championship has seen some apparently pretty ordinary collections of individuals succeed, whilst other more illustrious challengers have failed.
For owners of football clubs results may
appear to be the necessary measure but there is always the huge risk that their charge was on target to achieve the desired outcome it is just that they couldn't see that because their brains are not tuned into what really does make football
work.
Quote from: Sting of the North on September 17, 2019, 11:14:51 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on September 17, 2019, 11:09:01 AM
Quote from: Sting of the North on September 17, 2019, 11:04:31 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on September 17, 2019, 10:49:17 AM
Quote from: colinwhite on September 17, 2019, 10:24:53 AM
You are mixing up 2 different concepts.Of course SP is responsible for results. A wage bill or an abundance of good players doesnt however guarantee results,and in particular not straight away. We are all frustrated by the draw,but its looking pretty good to me. SP is doing an excellent job and lets all hope he can get that little bit of luck that was lacking on saturday. If we had had that we would have scored 4 or 5 !!!!
With all due respect, if I'm the powers that be and read we're 10th and haven't been beating Forest, Barnsley or consistently picking up points at home, I'm going to be having stern words with Parker about expectations.
Do you really believe that expectations are not already set very clearly? And do you also believe that the Khan's are idiots looking at the table and results and ignoring all other context? If so, I hope you are wrong, although past behaviour suggests you may be right.
But the contexts there. As I've already said, we've had quite a nice start of fixtures on paper and have thrown away points to the extent that we're now 10th in a pack and look vulnerable in all but one match really. I think we know expectations have been set, obviously, but it would seem from other posters that they think this is a good start which simply isn't true. I don't think the Khans are idiots, not at all, but I see them pumping money, into a talented squad and we don't seem to be getting the results required.
Well, to clarify, hopefully they see short term results as only one aspect, and the progression of our style of play and understanding between players as another (or else they have learned nothing, which seem contrary to their transfer dealings this summer). It is 7 out of 46 games. Most of those 7 games we have been the far better team. Our results, by the way are not great but not too bad. We are there, or there about, which is something that I believe at this early stage with so many new players is something that is not too disheartening to the powers that be.
Largely agree with that but i'm just of the perspective that we've had a poor to less than average start as opposed to good to above par. I look at our fixtures of the first 7 and think theres much harder to come.
With sess,reid read,knockhart,cavalero all new to the starting line up ,we are almost there and these things take time. a win on saturday and it would have been a decent start. Of course its results that count but we have a hell of alot of points to play for and we will get it right.The worst thing that could happen would be a change of managership. A poor start? Too slow in our build up play which is costing us goals? Did you see the look on Billics face for most of the game until a GK error cost us 2 points? I rest my case.
>>I look at our fixtures of the first 7 and think there's much harder to come. <<
Indeed - only 1 of our first 7 games has been against a side currently in the top 8 ... WBA Saturday a home draw. We're 11th after a reasonably easy run of games. We're now in a position where we need to go away and beat Sheff Wed next weekend just to ensure we don't drop out of the top half. Yes it is relatively early - but I don't fancy chasing down an 8, 9, 10 or more gap quickly established between us and the automatic places. Playoffs are a lottery in many respects and I'm sure the owners have a logic that one of the top 2 sides in terms of wage bill and talent should be looking at going up without the playoffs. If we're not top 6 at Xmas I'd fully expect a change.
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 17, 2019, 11:38:30 AM
>>I look at our fixtures of the first 7 and think there's much harder to come. <<
Indeed - only 1 of our first 7 games has been against a side currently in the top 8 ... WBA Saturday a home draw. We're 11th after a reasonably easy run of games. We're now in a position where we need to go away and beat Sheff Wed next weekend just to ensure we don't drop out of the top half. Yes it is relatively early - but I don't fancy chasing down an 8, 9, 10 or more gap quickly established between us and the automatic places. Playoffs are a lottery in many respects and I'm sure the owners have a logic that one of the top 2 sides in terms of wage bill and talent should be looking at going up without the playoffs. If we're not top 6 at Xmas I'd fully expect a change.
This. Whats really important to note here is, we bloody well shouldn't be either with this squad!
Quote from: colinwhite on September 17, 2019, 11:37:45 AM
With sess,reid read,knockhart,cavalero all new to the starting line up ,we are almost there and these things take time. a win on saturday and it would have been a decent start. Of course its results that count but we have a hell of alot of points to play for and we will get it right.The worst thing that could happen would be a change of managership. A poor start? Too slow in our build up play which is costing us goals? Did you see the look on Billics face for most of the game until a GK error cost us 2 points? I rest my case.
Bilic did a number big time on Parker tactically in the 2nd half with subs - something Parker didn't counter. We've played genuinely really well for 90 mins once this season - against what was a very poor Millwall on the night. Our other two wins have come against an ordinary Blackburn where we were poor 1st half and decent 2nd half and against a Huddersfield side in crisis where we nicked thanks to a worldy by Cavaleiro - we're not creating anything like the number of chances our possession should do. As has already been said - we've opened with a relatively easy set of fixtures and sit in mid table and are on a run of 3 league matches (plus a cup game) without a win - not scoring more than 1 goal in any of those matches - and with reportedly the best front 3 in the league. Have Mitro, Knockaert and Cav been missing sitters? Maybe they've missed reasonable chances ... but not absolute "sitters" per se. I genuinely think our painfully slow tempo is at least partially to blame.
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 17, 2019, 11:38:30 AM
>>I look at our fixtures of the first 7 and think there's much harder to come. <<
Indeed - only 1 of our first 7 games has been against a side currently in the top 8 ...
West Brom and Cardiff are top 8 teams.
Saying otherwise is a bit like saying an opening fixture against West Brom must be easy because they're bottom based on their name beginning with "W"
Reckon Forest will also finish top 8
So 2-3 teams in our first 7 games that will probably finish in the top third of the league... I'd say that's pretty representative of a full season
Quote from: Statto on September 17, 2019, 11:58:14 AM
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 17, 2019, 11:38:30 AM
>>I look at our fixtures of the first 7 and think there's much harder to come. <<
Indeed - only 1 of our first 7 games has been against a side currently in the top 8 ...
West Brom and Cardiff are top 8 teams.
Saying otherwise is a bit like saying an opening fixture against West Brom must be easy because they're bottom based on their name beginning with "W"
Reckon Forest will also finish top 8
So 2-3 teams in our first 7 games that will probably finish in the top third of the league... I'd say that's pretty representative of a full season
We should be winning against both, Cardiff for form, and WestBrom at home, if we want top 2 really, especially when you consider both were absolutely winnable games.
Quote from: Statto on September 17, 2019, 11:58:14 AM
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 17, 2019, 11:38:30 AM
>>I look at our fixtures of the first 7 and think there's much harder to come. <<
Indeed - only 1 of our first 7 games has been against a side currently in the top 8 ...
West Brom and Cardiff are top 8 teams.
Saying otherwise is a bit like saying an opening fixture against West Brom must be easy because they're bottom based on their name beginning with "W"
Reckon Forest will also finish top 8
So 2-3 teams in our first 7 games that will probably finish in the top third of the league... I'd say that's pretty representative of a full season
The nine favourite teams to win the championship according to the bookies are Leeds, Fulham, West Brom, Swansea, Nottingham Forest, Bristol City, Brentford, Preston and Cardiff. We have the tenth favorites next and then won't play another top ten team for another ten games.
Next Nine Games Sequence: Wednesday 10; Wigan 22; Reading 20; Charlton 16; Stoke 21; Luton 17; Middlesbrough 14; Hull 19 and Birmingham 12.
Quote from: FFC1987 on September 17, 2019, 01:46:37 PM
Quote from: Statto on September 17, 2019, 11:58:14 AM
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 17, 2019, 11:38:30 AM
>>I look at our fixtures of the first 7 and think there's much harder to come. <<
Indeed - only 1 of our first 7 games has been against a side currently in the top 8 ...
West Brom and Cardiff are top 8 teams.
Saying otherwise is a bit like saying an opening fixture against West Brom must be easy because they're bottom based on their name beginning with "W"
Reckon Forest will also finish top 8
So 2-3 teams in our first 7 games that will probably finish in the top third of the league... I'd say that's pretty representative of a full season
We should be winning against both, Cardiff for form, and WestBrom at home, if we want top 2 really, especially when you consider both were absolutely winnable games.
Ok, well bearing in mind even a top two team will only win about 26 games, what are the 20 fixtures we need not win in your opinion?
Quote from: Statto on September 17, 2019, 01:52:43 PM
Quote from: FFC1987 on September 17, 2019, 01:46:37 PM
Quote from: Statto on September 17, 2019, 11:58:14 AM
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 17, 2019, 11:38:30 AM
>>I look at our fixtures of the first 7 and think there's much harder to come. <<
Indeed - only 1 of our first 7 games has been against a side currently in the top 8 ...
West Brom and Cardiff are top 8 teams.
Saying otherwise is a bit like saying an opening fixture against West Brom must be easy because they're bottom based on their name beginning with "W"
Reckon Forest will also finish top 8
So 2-3 teams in our first 7 games that will probably finish in the top third of the league... I'd say that's pretty representative of a full season
We should be winning against both, Cardiff for form, and WestBrom at home, if we want top 2 really, especially when you consider both were absolutely winnable games.
Ok, well bearing in mind even a top two team will only win about 26 games, what are the 20 fixtures we need not win in your opinion?
I think having dropped points, we'll now need to pick up more points against top 6 oppo than whats usually needed.
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 17, 2019, 09:22:18 AM
>>Spot On. Fulham Fans need to stop setting insane expectations, given our adequate but limited budget. The season is going reasonably well<<
Really??? We have the biggest wage bill and one of the best 2 squads in the division.... expectation for Parker to deliver promotion with no excuses is certainly not "unrealistic "
Agreed.
Well boys, what I see in this discussion is a lot of "excuse making", to be honest. Players not familiar with one and the other, on paper supposed talent and budget not equalling success, new inexperienced coach, and so forth. The whole gelling issue, for me anyway, is way overblown. These guys are professional footballers and should be able to fulfill duties assigned to them, regardless of familiarity.
I think there comes a point where you/we, as fans, have to just face up to the fact that this team has not played very well to start this season. Right now, all the "ifs" "ands" and "buts" in the world doesn't show this side top 2. We all follow this club and want to see them succeed, but the reality is that they have not played very well indeed. Thankfully, it is still very early and a lot of football ahead, so there is hope this team can correct and get right. Fingers crossed.
From a Fawlty Towers episode, sums up my feeling so far this season........"I'm not satisfied!"
COYW!
:)
The team has not played well? I give up!!
Quote from: colinwhite on September 17, 2019, 07:11:45 PM
The team has not played well? I give up!!
+1
We were two refereeing decisions away from 4 extra points - the wrestling of Mitrovic to the floor against Cardiff, and the clear penalty against West Brom. (yes, I know we would have to convert them, and that isn't guaranteed.)
Or alternatively .. just a bit more luck with our finishing.
Football is often about moments, and they have gone against us so far. Had we had 4 points more, which personally I felt our play has deserved, then there would have been far less criticism.
I don't go to away games but attend every home game so i've seen a fair bit of this squad first hand now. My view thus far;
-The team has played some nice football and played it pretty well. We have dominated most of our opponents for the majority of our games,
-We have made some silly mistakes that have cost points. As these are ironed out things will improve,
-Our build up play is sometimes, but not always, slow. As the team gels I would Expect more frequent quick, incisive attacks. That too will improve results,
-Our dead ball efforts have been disappointing. Work in progress.
-Parker has occasionally been outwitted tactically. With experience that too should improve results,
-To those who call our style boring; get over it. It is technical, ambitious and well suited as a basis of Prem level football if/when we get there.
Overall I would give us a B+ To date and I think we have can move that to a straight A.
Quote from: WindyCity on September 17, 2019, 04:41:03 PM
Players not familiar with one and the other, on paper supposed talent and budget not equalling success, new inexperienced coach, and so forth. The whole gelling issue, for me anyway, is way overblown. These guys are professional footballers and should be able to fulfill duties assigned to them, regardless of familiarity.
Think what you want - I note you've made the same argument before now - but anyone who knows anything about football knows that's not how it works. For a fantastic illustration of what happens when you throw too many new players into the team too quickly, see Fulham last season. You're right to say it's "excuse making" but wrong to imply that affects the veracity or significance of the point. Sometimes in life there are excuses for things.
We have gone six league games in a row with more shoots on target than the other team. If we continue the trend of getting more shots on target for the season, i find it hard to believe we won't achieve automatic promotion.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on September 18, 2019, 01:14:24 AM
We have gone six league games in a row with more shoots on target than the other team. If we continue the trend of getting more shots on target for the season, i find it hard to believe we won't achieve automatic promotion.
A chance/shot on goal when you've taken so long (as we often do) to reach the opposition box, have all your supporting players either behind you or marked and the goal obscured by an area packed with defenders, is not the same as a chance where you break decisively with tempo and have options left & right with defenders out of position struggling to get back. 90% of our shots/chances are the former & not the latter and to compound that we still manage to gift the opposition with our defensive mistakes. So stats are again misleading.
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 18, 2019, 08:17:53 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on September 18, 2019, 01:14:24 AM
We have gone six league games in a row with more shoots on target than the other team. If we continue the trend of getting more shots on target for the season, i find it hard to believe we won't achieve automatic promotion.
A chance/shot on goal when you've taken so long (as we often do) to reach the opposition box, have all your supporting players either behind you or marked and the goal obscured by an area packed with defenders, is not the same as a chance where you break decisively with tempo and have options left & right with defenders out of position struggling to get back. 90% of our shots/chances are the former & not the latter and to compound that we still manage to gift the opposition with our defensive mistakes. So stats are again misleading.
I could just as easily say, a shot on target when you have waited (as we often do) to pick the perfect spot and are composed and balanced, is much better than a shot you've struck whilst sprinting and have only a momentary glimpse of the goal.
All in all, IMO any argument that our shots on target are of a lower quality than the opposition's is based on questionable reasoning and supported by little or no evidence.
Also, had we faced a high quality of shots on target, I don't think there would be so many posts criticising Bettinelli for not saving them.
Quote from: Statto on September 18, 2019, 09:03:13 AM
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 18, 2019, 08:17:53 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on September 18, 2019, 01:14:24 AM
We have gone six league games in a row with more shoots on target than the other team. If we continue the trend of getting more shots on target for the season, i find it hard to believe we won't achieve automatic promotion.
A chance/shot on goal when you've taken so long (as we often do) to reach the opposition box, have all your supporting players either behind you or marked and the goal obscured by an area packed with defenders, is not the same as a chance where you break decisively with tempo and have options left & right with defenders out of position struggling to get back. 90% of our shots/chances are the former & not the latter and to compound that we still manage to gift the opposition with our defensive mistakes. So stats are again misleading.
I could just as easily say, a shot on target when you have waited (as we often do) to pick the perfect spot and are composed and balanced, is much better than a shot you've struck whilst sprinting and have only a momentary glimpse of the goal.
All in all, IMO any argument that our shots on target are of a lower quality than the opposition's is based on questionable reasoning and supported by little or no evidence.
Also, had we faced a high quality of shots on target, I don't think there would be so many posts criticising Bettinelli for not saving them.
Sorry – don't hold to that at all. A striker works more on instinct & should jump on a moment of opportunity whereas defenders rely more on shape and organisation. Why don't we score tap ins, and don't say as the opposition park the bus as Liverpool & City score their fair share of close range finishes once they open the opposition up. The majority of our goals seem to be spectacular strikes outside or at lest on the edge of the area. This IMO is a total bi-product of our over-ponderous and slow build up play. Parker needs to find a way to get us zipping the ball more quickly in the opposition half – more running off the ball needed – more players gambling by making runs into the opposition area. Those things for me are certainly not happening enough at present. We're going into a very winnable set of games & I suspect both the board and fans will have expectations that we go into November in the top 6 and not miles off the top 2 places in terms of points. I sat fairly quietly observing during the WBA game but many around me were growing increasingly frustrated at our pedestrian style of play and voices raised in discontent & the occasion boo was plainly heard. As much as some want to vindicate this (in my opinion) overly cautious, slow, deliberate style of play it will soon lose the faith of many of our supporters if wins & goals aren't forthcoming & I suspect the board don't care how we play – as long as results are in evidence. Add to this I think Parkers stubbornness in using substitutes until late in the day and failing to address tactical ploys of opposition managers as was certainly the case with Bilic on Saturday when it was crying for a Stef Jo to come on (For a Reid, Cav of Knockaert) to get amongst their midfield when they took control for the last 25 mins – I think there's only so long that Scott Parker can use the dominance / possession card & people claim we're unlucky. We have the best front 3 in the division – are they all missing a string of sitters? No – Mitro in fact had 5 in 5 before Saturday, it's a fact they're not being put into positions in space that are clear goalscoring opportunities. We've not really put anyone to the sword barring a poor Millwall side who's managers only idea is hoof and fight for 2nd ball. More savvy managers are negating us and as people work us out and how relatively predictable we are in the massive possession we have then more managers will do likewise. 2 draws and 2 defeats in the last 4 ... 3 of them in the league & not more than a single goal in any of those games and I'm sorry we haven't created a string of easy chances generally either. That HAS to change starting Saturday. I'm certainly not calling for Parkers head but he simply must adapt his approach, otherwise it won't be the minority who begin to lose patience.
In one respect Parker appears more vulnerable to criticism and more serious actions by virtue of his alleged greater input to recruitment matters. I use 'alleged' since I am very wary of PR by proxy that uses ambiguous words, e.g. greater and input, when determining matters that are almost certainly unsuited to superficial explanations.
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 18, 2019, 10:28:36 AM
Sorry – don't hold to that at all. A striker works more on instinct & should jump on a moment of opportunity whereas defenders rely more on shape and organisation. Why don't we score tap ins, and don't say as the opposition park the bus as Liverpool & City score their fair share of close range finishes once they open the opposition up. The majority of our goals seem to be spectacular strikes outside or at lest on the edge of the area. This IMO is a total bi-product of our over-ponderous and slow build up play. Parker needs to find a way to get us zipping the ball more quickly in the opposition half – more running off the ball needed – more players gambling by making runs into the opposition area. Those things for me are certainly not happening enough at present. We're going into a very winnable set of games & I suspect both the board and fans will have expectations that we go into November in the top 6 and not miles off the top 2 places in terms of points. I sat fairly quietly observing during the WBA game but many around me were growing increasingly frustrated at our pedestrian style of play and voices raised in discontent & the occasion boo was plainly heard. As much as some want to vindicate this (in my opinion) overly cautious, slow, deliberate style of play it will soon lose the faith of many of our supporters if wins & goals aren't forthcoming & I suspect the board don't care how we play – as long as results are in evidence. Add to this I think Parkers stubbornness in using substitutes until late in the day and failing to address tactical ploys of opposition managers as was certainly the case with Bilic on Saturday when it was crying for a Stef Jo to come on (For a Reid, Cav of Knockaert) to get amongst their midfield when they took control for the last 25 mins – I think there's only so long that Scott Parker can use the dominance / possession card & people claim we're unlucky. We have the best front 3 in the division – are they all missing a string of sitters? No – Mitro in fact had 5 in 5 before Saturday, it's a fact they're not being put into positions in space that are clear goalscoring opportunities. We've not really put anyone to the sword barring a poor Millwall side who's managers only idea is hoof and fight for 2nd ball. More savvy managers are negating us and as people work us out and how relatively predictable we are in the massive possession we have then more managers will do likewise. 2 draws and 2 defeats in the last 4 ... 3 of them in the league & not more than a single goal in any of those games and I'm sorry we haven't created a string of easy chances generally either. That HAS to change starting Saturday. I'm certainly not calling for Parkers head but he simply must adapt his approach, otherwise it won't be the minority who begin to lose patience.
I can't see much in this post that adds to the specific point about the quality of shots on target. I could perhaps agree that our forwards aren't "missing a string of sitters" but IMO, none of the goals we conceded were "sitters" either, ie they weren't easier chances than those our forwards have missed. I suggest we agree to disagree on that point.
Your post seems to be a general rant about Parker covering everything down to the timing of substitutions. FWIW I agree with 90% of your post, in particular the fundamental point that we desperately need to increase the tempo.
I don't agree this means Parker has to "adapt his approach". I don't think he tells the players to keep the tempo slow, limit their movement etc. IMO his approach is correct, but will take time to finesse, ie, to speed up. Let's not forget we were just as poor, or even worse, for the first few months under Jokanovic in 15/16, 16/17, 17/18 and 18/19. The passing game takes time for new players to adapt to, and they also need time to learn each other's habits and preferences.
Also for the record, I'm not necessarily saying I think Parker is up to the job, just that IMO there's no point judging him yet (particularly when our passing, possession and shots on target statistics are all promising IMO).
Fair comments although I'm certain a manager would have significant input into something as key as the tempo his side play
i'm getting slightly bored of this over-emphasised view that our attacks take so long to reach the oppositions box and that 90% of our chances come from slow build up. They don't at all. look at West Brom game:
TC pull back to Cav early on- quick attack
Reed through ball to TC (def not slow build up) and tipped onto cross bar
TC cross (after he'd broken 1/2 length of pitch down left) to Reid's head
TC ball laid across to Knockeart low down save.
These were 4 of our 7 shots on target, all after swift movement and build up.
Oddly the 5th was our goal which DID come from slow, purposeful build up with the oppo camped behind the ball.
I can't see an issue with the plan- our shots on target compared to shots conceded on target will hold us in good stead this season- there's no other team that can match those at the moment, so the points will come.
Quote from: Jim© on September 18, 2019, 11:56:37 AM
i'm getting slightly bored of this over-emphasised view that our attacks take so long to reach the oppositions box and that 90% of our chances come from slow build up. They don't at all. look at West Brom game:
TC pull back to Cav early on- quick attack
Reed through ball to TC (def not slow build up) and tipped onto cross bar
TC cross (after he'd broken 1/2 length of pitch down left) to Reid's head
TC ball laid across to Knockeart low down save.
These were 4 of our 7 shots on target, all after swift movement and build up.
Oddly the 5th was our goal which DID come from slow, purposeful build up with the oppo camped behind the ball.
I can't see an issue with the plan- our shots on target compared to shots conceded on target will hold us in good stead this season- there's no other team that can match those at the moment, so the points will come.
Or maybe that just proves that on the occasion we moved the ball quicker, something came of it. When we move it too slowly the only way we're likely to score is through a long distance strike like Saturday, are we cutting teams to shreds through incisive high tempo football as under Slav in the 2nd half of our promotion season or in the days of Tigana? Most certainly not. Other issues include the wingers are not providing cut backs enough, Mitro is being isolated and we need to get one of the wingers or midfielders closer to him when we attack. We're not creating or missing a host of chances, we've not scored more than 1 in a game for an age, we've fallen to 11th in the table as a result. Are we just the unluckiest side in the league or is the problem more systematic? I know what I think & the goals for & points tally don't lie – and we've scored over a third of our total goals in one match (Millwall)
We ARE creating a host of chances though:
Most chances created EFL- Fulham (83)
Most shots on target- Fulham (37)
Most shots on target p/g- Fulham (5.3)
Most successful passes in opp half- Fulham (1,514)
At the other end we're also conceding few chances. It would suggest that things will turn our way, so worrying about being 11th mid way through September is pointless IMO.
Quote from: Jim© on September 18, 2019, 01:22:43 PM
We ARE creating a host of chances though:
Most chances created EFL- Fulham (83)
Most shots on target- Fulham (37)
Most shots on target p/g- Fulham (5.3)
Most successful passes in opp half- Fulham (1,514)
At the other end we're also conceding few chances. It would suggest that things will turn our way, so worrying about being 11th mid way through September is pointless IMO.
:plus one:
A circular debate that I've covered already in this post as again copied below - The chances are not clear cut, nobody is missing a raft of sitters - Let's agree to disagree as this will only go round again in the same manner - suffice to say people who think in the manner as I do are not a small minority so I suggest even if you disagree there's something in it. This is my final word on the subject for now as I wish to avoid this thread becoming a circular repetition. However it is a results business and ours are poor for a side with the talent we possess. I've given my reasons and they're there to read. Lets see how the next few games go as a repeat of the last 7 over the next 7 will see Parker under serious pressure
>> A chance/shot on goal when you've taken so long (as we often do) to reach the opposition box, have all your supporting players either behind you or marked and the goal obscured by an area packed with defenders, is not the same as a chance where you break decisively with tempo and have options left & right with defenders out of position struggling to get back. 90% of our shots/chances are the former & not the latter and to compound that we still manage to gift the opposition with our defensive mistakes. So stats are again misleading.<<
Quote from: Jim© on September 18, 2019, 01:22:43 PM
Most shots on target- Fulham (37)
The stats I've just looked up have Leeds on 38 shots on target, so we're second. But our shots on target/goals ratio, 30%, is poor - 14th.
It's perhaps more notable that we've only conceded 14 shots on target, which is the least in the league. But our save percentage, 57%, is 20th, so even worse than our shots on target/goals ratio.
So even if you concede the quality of our shots on target is low (debatable anyway IMO) the bigger issue is how many of the opposition's shots on target are resulting in goals.
I'm sorry to say it just does not reflect well on Bettinelli, unless you believe, to paraphrase another poster above, Betts is "the unluckiest GK in the league"
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 18, 2019, 01:57:54 PM
A circular debate that I've covered already in this post as again copied below - The chances are not clear cut, nobody is missing a raft of sitters - Let's agree to disagree as this will only go round again in the same manner - suffice to say people who think in the manner as I do are not a small minority so I suggest even if you disagree there's something in it.
>> A chance/shot on goal when you've taken so long (as we often do) to reach the opposition box, have all your supporting players either behind you or marked and the goal obscured by an area packed with defenders, is not the same as a chance where you break decisively with tempo and have options left & right with defenders out of position struggling to get back. 90% of our shots/chances are the former & not the latter and to compound that we still manage to gift the opposition with our defensive mistakes. So stats are again misleading.<<
But still, people have given examples of when we did create clear cut chances, and for some reason you seem to believe that those chances are created in a vacuum because we happened to play the ball quicker. I thought the point of the possession game in many ways is to wear the opponents down so that you then can cease your opportunities that will eventually appear. I admit that I wouldn't mind if we managed to create even more such chances, but you may have noticed that most teams set up to mostly defend when they face us (either by design or necessity). Thus, it is not always possible to attack quickly. Do you have a thought on that?
Some poster also questioned whether for example our opponents have been able to create much higher quality chances with their quick attacks. What is your stance on that?
Further, do you have anything (other than an alleged "not a small minority") to back up your feeling that we on average create less clear cut chances than other teams in the Championship? Because looking just at stats (which admittedly often don't tell the full story) we do create the most chances.
With the above said, I do agree that we would probably be even better if we managed to up the tempo a notch in our passing, and I am also confident that it is an aim for SP and the players to do just that. First and foremost however I believe that we need to score more on our clear cut chances as well as stop letting in soft goals. Normally I would think that such things will fairly much even out over a season though so not too worried just yet.
Quote from: Statto on September 18, 2019, 02:22:42 PM
I'm sorry to say it just does not reflect well on Bettinelli, unless you believe, to paraphrase another poster above, Betts is "the unluckiest GK in the league"
Herein lies (IMO) the reason why we've not many more points than we do. Just not good enough unfortunately.
Re the shots- i was just quoting a post I'd seen (i'd not looked them up myself)
In answer to the Sting OTN, I think we'll possibly find away games a little easier as teams come at us more so we can hit them quick once possession has turned over.
As per my last reply I'm done on this subject for now and will see what transpires Saturday before commenting again. However below is a post from a Sheff Wednesday fan on owls talk ... discussing the weekends game. Note the 1st & 2nd paragraphs. It seems neutrals/opposition fans see the same sort of thing.
》Seen Fulham a couple of times on TV and they totally dominate possession with lots of short passing very much in the same way as their manager Scott Parker used to play. For all of their possession they don't create as many chances as you would imagine.
The front 3 of Mitrovic, Cavaleiro and Knockheart look a real handful but I think the slow build up that they employ through midfield actually hampers them and allows teams to get organised at the back.
If Tom Lees is fit I would bring him back in and move Ilorfa to right back as I think he would be able to handle Knockheart better than Odubaju, would also give us one more tall player at the back to help out with Mitrovic. Also wouldn't start Murphy and replace him with Luongo to give us a bit more presence in midfield to start off with.《
Still doesn't change the fact (as per this thread, I haven't looked it up or counted myself) that we create more chances so far than any other team in the division, so for me it's not super evident that it is not the way forward.
I prefer to have my own view of what happens, and am not really bothered whether or not other fans or opposing fans share them since I will be equally wrong or right regardless (if there even is such a thing as wrong or right here). But I am happy to agree to disagree, since I share your view that it is unlikely that we will get any further.
Quote from: Statto on September 17, 2019, 11:48:18 PM
Quote from: WindyCity on September 17, 2019, 04:41:03 PM
Players not familiar with one and the other, on paper supposed talent and budget not equalling success, new inexperienced coach, and so forth. The whole gelling issue, for me anyway, is way overblown. These guys are professional footballers and should be able to fulfill duties assigned to them, regardless of familiarity.
Think what you want - I note you've made the same argument before now - but anyone who knows anything about football knows that's not how it works. For a fantastic illustration of what happens when you throw too many new players into the team too quickly, see Fulham last season. You're right to say it's "excuse making" but wrong to imply that affects the veracity or significance of the point. Sometimes in life there are excuses for things.
Point taken, and I know I've made the gelling issue point before, and I will continue to do so. Of course, a certain amount of practice and playing time together is beneficial, but I see this bed-in stuff all the time, and I just don't buy into it, rightly or wrongly. It doesn't take weeks or months of playing together for a player to know to make a pass, a through ball, to set a team mate loose to a one v one. You make that pass, regardless whether the receiving player is known or familiar to that player or not. I just don't see this as rocket science, and pros should easily be able to play their appointed roles in spite of short "bed-in" time together. Like I said, just my opinion, right or wrong.
I would also add that I don't see last years' debacle an issue of gelling or too many players not knowing each other. There were a lot of team "issues" early on you may recall with unhappiness/trouble in the clubhouse. A leaky defense was primary in last years' show. And if I am correct, many of the defensive players were familiar with each other. Last years' FFC squad just wasn't good enough for Prem level competition and the additions brought in were not the 'right' players as was discussed ad nauseam in this forum.
Quote from: WindyCity on September 18, 2019, 04:37:10 PM
I would also add that I don't see last years' debacle an issue of gelling or too many players not knowing each other. There were a lot of team "issues" early on you may recall with unhappiness/trouble in the clubhouse. A leaky defense was primary in last years' show. And if I am correct, many of the defensive players were familiar with each other. Last years' FFC squad just wasn't good enough for Prem level competition and the additions brought in were not the 'right' players as was discussed ad nauseam in this forum.
No, they didn't know each other.
Our first choice defensive players last year would have been -
Rico
TFM - Chambers - Mawson - Bryan
That's an excellent back 5 on paper, good enough for a mid-table PL team, but they performed terribly - IMO because all five of them were new to the team.
In the end we settled on a different group, which generally seemed to be -
Rico
Christie/Odoi - Odoi/Mawson - Ream/MLM - Bryan
I will concede that most of those players (Odoi, Ream, MLM and Christie) were simply not good enough. But in any case, even looking at those players, only Ream and Odoi had played a decent number of games together.
Quote from: colinwhite on September 17, 2019, 07:11:45 PM
The team has not played well? I give up!!
Sure, that is you prerogative. My frustration with FFC are the points left on the table, pure and simple. Not getting the job done. In games where they did in fact dominate play. And mind you, some of that 'domination' was nothing more than diddling with themselves, keeping possession, and posing no real threat to the opposition. Teams are laying back letting FFC play with themselves, and then striking back against FFC on the opportunities that they get. All that 'possession' does not necessarily mean "playing well", does it? Thankfully it is early in season, plenty of time to gain some momentum and some wins. But right now, all we see is a mid table side. Results are what I am looking for, and assuming FFC fans feel the same. This is a results oriented business.
We are only seven games in, we have accrued 11 points out of a possible 21. But we are only 5 points behind the Leaders, and our goal difference is decent. A couple of wins in a row will make a difference to our position in the League, and the good thing is that we shall be playing some of the teams above us whereupon there is an opportunity to leave them pointless whilst we add the points to our total. There is another 39 matches to compete in and another 117 points to fight for, add that to the points we already have taken. That's a possible 128 points to collect altogether.
We are currently still in September, and as many of you have said, we have quality players and a decent squad, which admittedly may need a little surgery in January.
Too many on here had high expectations far too early and consequently they are disappointed so far. Well the reality is that some have set themselves up to be disappointed and should lower their expectations.
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on September 18, 2019, 06:05:36 PM
We are only seven games in, we have accrued 11 points out of a possible 21. But we are only 5 points behind the Leaders, and our goal difference is decent. A couple of wins in a row will make a difference to our position in the League, and the good thing is that we shall be playing some of the teams above us whereupon there is an opportunity to leave them pointless whilst we add the points to our total. There is another 39 matches to compete in and another 117 points to fight for, add that to the points we already have taken. That's a possible 128 points to collect altogether.
We are currently still in September, and as many of you have said, we have quality players and a decent squad, which admittedly may need a little surgery in January.
Too many in here had high expectations far too early and consequently they are disappointed so far. Well the reality is that some have set themselves up to be disappointed and should lower their expectations.
Wooly, I am gonna keep my expectations high. Yes, 2-3 wins in a row would be terrific. Fingers crossed. We had that chance you mention of playing a side above us, at home, and walked away with one point, just a few days ago. Agreed, it's early, thankfully, and plenty of time to get things right. But let's not forget, all the games count, regardless when they are played. It would be a bleeding shame if FFC failed at promotion based on points dropped these first seven games. I know, spilt milk and all. But these dropped points have me very frustrated.
COYW!
Quote from: WindyCity on September 18, 2019, 06:51:59 PM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on September 18, 2019, 06:05:36 PM
We are only seven games in, we have accrued 11 points out of a possible 21. But we are only 5 points behind the Leaders, and our goal difference is decent. A couple of wins in a row will make a difference to our position in the League, and the good thing is that we shall be playing some of the teams above us whereupon there is an opportunity to leave them pointless whilst we add the points to our total. There is another 39 matches to compete in and another 117 points to fight for, add that to the points we already have taken. That's a possible 128 points to collect altogether.
We are currently still in September, and as many of you have said, we have quality players and a decent squad, which admittedly may need a little surgery in January.
Too many in here had high expectations far too early and consequently they are disappointed so far. Well the reality is that some have set themselves up to be disappointed and should lower their expectations.
Wooly, I am gonna keep my expectations high. Yes, 2-3 wins in a row would be terrific. Fingers crossed. We had that chance you mention of playing a side above us, at home, and walked away with one point, just a few days ago. Agreed, it's early, thankfully, and plenty of time to get things right. But let's not forget, all the games count, regardless when they are played. It would be a bleeding shame if FFC failed at promotion based on points dropped these first seven games. I know, spilt milk and all. But these dropped points have me very frustrated.
COYW!
I agree, You are right of course that the victory's at the beginning are just as important as the victory's towards the end.
There are some very long posts on this thread and that's for sure. So I will try to keep it short.
I know it's a debate, but this kind of dissection of the club at this stage of the season seams a bit ott. Just an opinion.
We are notoriously slow starters and only 7 games into the season. Some of the so called easy clubs we have done well against have turned out not to be easy teams after all. We have played some of the fancied teams but I still haven't seen a team, imo, that is better than us. We haven't won all the games but hopefully you get what I mean.
As the season progresses I see us getting stronger and the other teams becoming weaker due to injuries etc. Just a hunch having watched us for many years. I still see us finishing top 6, probably top 3. That's a good season for me.
Some of our players need to become more team players . Namely Cav and Knockeart. This will come hopefully.
We have some good young players in the team.
I hope we stick with Parker as I believe stability in the club is more important at present than another tough year in the Premier league.
Frankly I'm really enjoying the season so far. After last season, I'd suggest others try to do the same.
Coyw!
The idea that you throw a group of players together and they should gel because they are professionals is fundamentally flawed for reasons I dont have time to explain. Add to that the fact fact that we are playing in a possession based style which takes much longer to develop tactically than a defensive counter atttacking style and some of the comments made on here are way off the mark. We havent steamrollered every team with results,but apart from the Barnsley defeat have shown progress in every game. Individual errors have cost us points,but we are creating plenty of chances and even teams like WBA and seasoned trainers like Billic dont have an answer. They got the point but the game did not go how they wanted at any point,as the desperation on this unbeaten teams coach clearly showed.
Its early days and we will start putting results together. We are 3 points off 2nd place !!!!! Some posts on here criticising SP and the team are way over the top . Its frustrating we are not top of the table ,but we are not entitled to be regardless of what we spent. Some people need to be careful what they wish for . A change of management would guarantee us no promotion ,just as Ranieri guaranteed us relegation , for it would clearly mark a change in direction and we know that rarely works.
We are playing some superb football, and if people cant see that then its pointless having this sort of debate.
I wonder if Fulham have a specialist coach for "Corners, Crosses and Set Pieces", something is lacking in those areas.
Quote from: colinwhite on September 19, 2019, 06:00:48 AM
The idea that you throw a group of players together and they should gel because they are professionals is fundamentally flawed for reasons I dont have time to explain. Add to that the fact fact that we are playing in a possession based style which takes much longer to develop tactically than a defensive counter atttacking style and some of the comments made on here are way off the mark. We havent steamrollered every team with results,but apart from the Barnsley defeat have shown progress in every game. Individual errors have cost us points,but we are creating plenty of chances and even teams like WBA and seasoned trainers like Billic dont have an answer. They got the point but the game did not go how they wanted at any point,as the desperation on this unbeaten teams coach clearly showed.
Its early days and we will start putting results together. We are 3 points off 2nd place !!!!! Some posts on here criticising SP and the team are way over the top . Its frustrating we are not top of the table ,but we are not entitled to be regardless of what we spent. Some people need to be careful what they wish for . A change of management would guarantee us no promotion ,just as Ranieri guaranteed us relegation , for it would clearly mark a change in direction and we know that rarely works.
We are playing some superb football, and if people cant see that then its pointless having this sort of debate.
Agreed
Quote from: colinwhite on September 19, 2019, 06:00:48 AM
The idea that you throw a group of players together and they should gel because they are professionals is fundamentally flawed for reasons I dont have time to explain. Add to that the fact fact that we are playing in a possession based style which takes much longer to develop tactically than a defensive counter atttacking style and some of the comments made on here are way off the mark. We havent steamrollered every team with results,but apart from the Barnsley defeat have shown progress in every game. Individual errors have cost us points,but we are creating plenty of chances and even teams like WBA and seasoned trainers like Billic dont have an answer. They got the point but the game did not go how they wanted at any point,as the desperation on this unbeaten teams coach clearly showed.
Its early days and we will start putting results together. We are 3 points off 2nd place !!!!! Some posts on here criticising SP and the team are way over the top . Its frustrating we are not top of the table ,but we are not entitled to be regardless of what we spent. Some people need to be careful what they wish for . A change of management would guarantee us no promotion ,just as Ranieri guaranteed us relegation , for it would clearly mark a change in direction and we know that rarely works.
We are playing some superb football, and if people cant see that then its pointless having this sort of debate.
Wow. Nice to know its pointless having this kind of debate if people dont conform to your view. Weirdly I thought that was exactly the reason for forums like this. Its a game of opinions if you want to be objective and as mine doesn't match yours then that shouldn't make either right or wrong. Respect other people's views, agree to disagree. Personally I still stand by all my own stated views. Also for accuracies sake we're 5 points off 2nd, not 3.
Quote from: colinwhite on September 19, 2019, 06:00:48 AM
The idea that you throw a group of players together and they should gel because they are professionals is fundamentally flawed [... snipped to keep the thread shorter ... ]
Absolutely priceless opening comment.
Take any professional sports person and their performances bounce around in a series of anomalous outcomes some peaking high, some dipping low, and all contributing to a measurable average. The object and purpose of coaching is to increase the number of highs and decrease the number of lows so that average or median rises to its peak level allowing the sports person to maximise their ability to the full.
In a team sport that exercise is complicated by the need to get every member of the team to a maximise their ability to the full in team performances. The coaches job is multiplied by the number of players in the team. The team will be improved by its highest performers and hindered by its lowest performers. The object and purpose of coaching is to blend the team in such a way that everyone has the best chance of getting close to their best median level, meaning the team will play together as anticipated in training and tactical regimes. The coaching team can do this via mental and physical processes designed to prove to each and every player that their maximised median is higher than they may at first believe and that the key to this is the unity inspired within the whole team (of which the coaches are also people trying to attain their best median level of ability to coach) the classic win-win multiplied by number of team members.
It doesn't always work but that isn't the point.
Quote from: colinwhite on September 19, 2019, 06:00:48 AM
The idea that you throw a group of players together and they should gel because they are professionals is fundamentally flawed for reasons I dont have time to explain.
It maybe worth noting that "professionals" are against "other professionals", so being a professional is not an advantage to gel faster. In fact, most professionals have practiced over 10,000 hours to reduce their individual errors, but most of the new players would have only practiced 150 hours with the team to reduce their teamwork errors.
Given most players would have practiced an extra 450 hours with the team by Christmas, surely a few less goals will be conceded. One goal less conceded at Barnsley or Forest would have us 9th now, one goal less conceded at Cardiff or WBA would have us 5th now, one goal less conceded in our last three games would have us 2nd now (ahead of Leeds).
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 19, 2019, 08:00:36 AM
Quote from: colinwhite on September 19, 2019, 06:00:48 AM
The idea that you throw a group of players together and they should gel because they are professionals is fundamentally flawed for reasons I dont have time to explain. Add to that the fact fact that we are playing in a possession based style which takes much longer to develop tactically than a defensive counter atttacking style and some of the comments made on here are way off the mark. We havent steamrollered every team with results,but apart from the Barnsley defeat have shown progress in every game. Individual errors have cost us points,but we are creating plenty of chances and even teams like WBA and seasoned trainers like Billic dont have an answer. They got the point but the game did not go how they wanted at any point,as the desperation on this unbeaten teams coach clearly showed.
Its early days and we will start putting results together. We are 3 points off 2nd place !!!!! Some posts on here criticising SP and the team are way over the top . Its frustrating we are not top of the table ,but we are not entitled to be regardless of what we spent. Some people need to be careful what they wish for . A change of management would guarantee us no promotion ,just as Ranieri guaranteed us relegation , for it would clearly mark a change in direction and we know that rarely works.
We are playing some superb football, and if people cant see that then its pointless having this sort of debate.
Wow. Nice to know its pointless having this kind of debate if people dont conform to your view. Weirdly I thought that was exactly the reason for forums like this. Its a game of opinions if you want to be objective and as mine doesn't match yours then that shouldn't make either right or wrong. Respect other people's views, agree to disagree. Personally I still stand by all my own stated views. Also for accuracies sake we're 5 points off 2nd, not 3.
Well put Spirit!
Wow, lots of excuses and rocket science flying around! Haha..... :)
Pros v pros, hours on pitch, bedding in, mental and physical processes, et al. I'm learning a lot about this very complicated sport.
Good fun!
Just wondering....when is bedding in/gelling actually completed? Or does it never end, as some would have, witness last year FFC in the Prem, maybe they never did get cozy with each other? Just yanking some chains and having some fun, but really, please, why so much emphasis on gelling?
COYW!
@WindyCity:
There are many posts here that tries to various degrees to explain why they believe that things like gelling is important. I guess people keep trying to emphasize it because they believe it to be true. I strongly share this view.
I take from your posts that you consider such things to be fairly unimportant. This surprises me, because I (maybe foolishly) thought that it was almost seen as a fact that it is indeed important if you want to achieve good results in most (all?) team sports and also to some degree in all other parts of society where interaction between individuals is necessary. You are of course free to not believe it to be important, but I have really not seen any good counterarguments from your end.
FWIIW, I don't think people are trying to say that football as a concept is complicated since you just have to score more goals than the opponent. However, it is likely that all teams share this fundamental goal and understanding, and as such it is all about how you can be better than the other guys. One thing that I think is reasonable to believe makes you better is that your players are more in sync than the opponents players. Another thing is the individual quality of the players (however that is measured in a team sport). That is however where things like pros vs pros becomes a valid argument. All these players have trained all their lives and train every day to become better footballers. Every little thing that sets you apart therefore counts, because there is not that much difference in quality between the players in the end. That is the same reason why it is important to be switched on and have the right mindset every game, because otherwise you may lose to Oldham.
Quote from: Sting of the North on September 19, 2019, 05:19:21 PM
@WindyCity:
There are many posts here that tries to various degrees to explain why they believe that things like gelling is important. I guess people keep trying to emphasize it because they believe it to be true. I strongly share this view.
I take from your posts that you consider such things to be fairly unimportant. This surprises me, because I (maybe foolishly) thought that it was almost seen as a fact that it is indeed important if you want to achieve good results in most (all?) team sports and also to some degree in all other parts of society where interaction between individuals is necessary. You are of course free to not believe it to be important, but I have really not seen any good counterarguments from your end.
FWIIW, I don't think people are trying to say that football as a concept is complicated since you just have to score more goals than the opponent. However, it is likely that all teams share this fundamental goal and understanding, and as such it is all about how you can be better than the other guys. One thing that I think is reasonable to believe makes you better is that your players are more in sync than the opponents players. Another thing is the individual quality of the players (however that is measured in a team sport). That is however where things like pros vs pros becomes a valid argument. All these players have trained all their lives and train every day to become better footballers. Every little thing that sets you apart therefore counts, because there is not that much difference in quality between the players in the end. That is the same reason why it is important to be switched on and have the right mindset every game, because otherwise you may lose to Oldham.
Sting, TY for your kind response. Of course, everyone has their own opinions and views. And you might note that in an earlier post, I did say: "Of course, a certain amount of practice and playing time together is beneficial". However, I still feel this gelling issue is overblown, again, just my view. I have given reasons why, such as these guys are all pros. I played team sports most of my life (including ice hockey) and never really felt that all the practice and playing time together (or lack thereof) could ever be held as a reason given for overall team success or failures. I think most of these pro footballers know when to make a pass or a run, regardless of what they may or may not know about their teammates. And I also ask, as above, when is gelling completed? Or is ever really completed at all? And also, what of these other competitions that teams/players are engaged with? Some of the lesser comps, teams oft times play their 2nd tier players. Have they had chances to "gel" as a unit? What of international comps and world cups? Most of those teams are comprised of players (albeit mostly very good) that join in just to play a given game. Where does gelling fit in there? I'm sure World Cup squads do not spend the same amount of practice time in preparation (lack of gel) as teams/players do for the regular season league action.
I do ask some of these things in an effort to learn more about football. I am relatively new to the English football scene, having been following (in particular FFC) for maybe 5-6 years now. So, I readily admit I'm pretty green. As I view these games, I'm looking at it more macro than micro. Still hard for me to see some of the things on the pitch that most of the forum sees, such as various positional play and such. I am getting better though. I also try to add some humor and fun in my posts, so I hope some here are not offended and see the spirit intended.
Quote from: WindyCity on September 19, 2019, 06:15:29 PM
I also ask, as above, when is gelling completed? Or is ever really completed at all? And also, what of these other competitions that teams/players are engaged with? Some of the lesser comps, teams oft times play their 2nd tier players. Have they had chances to "gel" as a unit? What of international comps and world cups? Most of those teams are comprised of players (albeit mostly very good) that join in just to play a given game. Where does gelling fit in there? I'm sure World Cup squads do not spend the same amount of practice time in preparation (lack of gel) as teams/players do for the regular season league action.
I don't wish to re-run this whole debate but regarding the specific points made above, logically, these points don't seem to me to in any way contradict the central argument that teams perform better when their players have had time to 'gel'.
For example, as to the question, "when is gelling completed?", the answer is never. So what? A weightlifter spends hours in the gym and eating high-protein foods to improve his performance, and you could ask the same question - when is all that training and eating completed? Again the answer would be, well, never. But that doesn't in any way mean all that training and eating doesn't improve his performance.
As to the point about international games, it's widely known that the lack of time training together hinders international teams. Duh. So what?
Quote from: WindyCity on September 19, 2019, 04:39:18 PM
Just yanking some chains and having some fun, but really, please, why so much emphasis on gelling?
Yanking chains, having fun, asking why? You may have all the ingredients to be a coach, at least in the short term!
Firstly I agree football is, at least superficially, a very simple game. You get a result by beating your opponent and the method used, good, bad, or indifferent, never makes it to the record books. You can be a gracious winner or a sore loser and nobody else will give a damn. The folks who watched you will only remember what they want to remember, and even that may be manufactured.
To assist in understanding what makes a better player, and by extension a better team, I have always looked at those professionals (Malcolm Macdonald for example) who start in one position, where they may be pretty average, and then move into another position, and become a star. I always wonder where that switch or swapping of role comes from - is it the player, the coach, a team mate, or some occasional and casual observer, or a combination of any or all of these? Just how does it work and just how many players have lost out because it didn't happen to them? I'd like to believe, but I have no way of knowing if it is true or not, that skilled eyes are always looking critically at what they see on the pitch, with a mind open wide to all possibility, and simply make a connection between what players do and how that can be turned into an improvement for all concerned. That gives rise to the notion that skilled eyes also see how a 'weakness' in one player can be 'strengthened' by another player already having the missing ingredient of the former. Now if that can happen on or off the competitive pitch it benefits everyone and can be applied to the whole team. Hence the team gains in strength through reciprocation and that reciprocation allows coaches to do more and more until a peak occurs and then things tend to drop away. In other words the momentum to improve needs to continue for as long as possible because when it stops it is gone.
Talking about the essence of a lot of this thread & stepping into an objective mode rather than a points scoring "I'm right, your wrong" scenario, I will say this. I hope Parker succeeds, I like passing football and think I've made that evident through my replies, so no I don't want to see us back to the Ranieri style, doing a Warnock or Pulis. In fact I think I see the merits of what he's trying to do. The much renown " press" employed by many teams & setup to stop the likes of Fulham taking the mick and playing round them – and by keeping the ball and inviting the press whilst in control that should & did certainly in the 1st half against WBA open gaps in behind the opposition midfield. At this point – yes the speed of pass & pass selection is down to the players and Parker cannot influence that directly on the pitch – neither can he directly influence our attacking players to make the correct runs into those spaces and for the two – the pass, it's accuracy & speed of execution and the incisive/intelligent run to exploit it. I will concede that this should improve with time – at the same time I'm not trying to take from what I believe is still a valid argument regards tempo. Fingers crossed we will see that this weekend and the beginning of a run that takes us upwards into a position that reflects the ability of our squad. COYW!!
Firstly, while I confess that I thoroughly enjoy our style of football, I do agree we need more frequent spells at a higher tempo. I put it this way because we do sometimes play quick incisive passes and move the ball quickly but probably not often enough.
Personally I buy into the view that our confidence and ability play our style but at a quicker tempo, will improve as the team gels. To play our style fast requires an instinctive, almost telepathic understanding of where team mates will make their runs. Ultimately this comes mainly from competitive match practice.
I would give it until early December and would have hoped to see significant improvements by then.
Quote from: Statto on September 19, 2019, 11:33:10 PM
Quote from: WindyCity on September 19, 2019, 06:15:29 PM
I also ask, as above, when is gelling completed? Or is ever really completed at all? And also, what of these other competitions that teams/players are engaged with? Some of the lesser comps, teams oft times play their 2nd tier players. Have they had chances to "gel" as a unit? What of international comps and world cups? Most of those teams are comprised of players (albeit mostly very good) that join in just to play a given game. Where does gelling fit in there? I'm sure World Cup squads do not spend the same amount of practice time in preparation (lack of gel) as teams/players do for the regular season league action.
I don't wish to re-run this whole debate but regarding the specific points made above, logically, these points don't seem to me to in any way contradict the central argument that teams perform better when their players have had time to 'gel'.
For example, as to the question, "when is gelling completed?", the answer is never. So what? A weightlifter spends hours in the gym and eating high-protein foods to improve his performance, and you could ask the same question - when is all that training and eating completed? Again the answer would be, well, never. But that doesn't in any way mean all that training and eating doesn't improve his performance.
As to the point about international games, it's widely known that the lack of time training together hinders international teams. Duh. So what?
Ok, so....DUH!! Let's just use lack of gelling as a never ending excuse. Gotta always have an excuse in ones' back pocket for poor performance.
Quote from: Twig on September 20, 2019, 03:22:32 PM
Firstly, while I confess that I thoroughly enjoy our style of football, I do agree we need more frequent spells at a higher tempo. I put it this way because we do sometimes play quick incisive passes and move the ball quickly but probably not often enough.
Personally I buy into the view that our confidence and ability play our style but at a quicker tempo, will improve as the team gels. To play our style fast requires an instinctive, almost telepathic understanding of where team mates will make their runs. Ultimately this comes mainly from competitive match practice.
I would give it until early December and would have hoped to see significant improvements by then.
Nothing wrong with the 'possession game' as long as there is a purpose and reason to it. I think the team needs to have some sort of plays or ideas on which to give themselves real scoring chances from this possession style. It seems for long periods of time, some opponents just sit back and let FFC accumulate possession time, without really expending much energy, and without FFC really posing credible threat. Hopefully FFC can produce more chances and goals from all this possession. So far, save one game, they really haven't. Additionally, I agree with you about quicker tempo, and certainly in those transition opportunities the players should try to keep moving forward on the attack rather than at some point pass backwards and lose that push and establish once again possession.
Quote from: WindyCity on September 20, 2019, 04:14:56 PM
Quote from: Statto on September 19, 2019, 11:33:10 PM
Quote from: WindyCity on September 19, 2019, 06:15:29 PM
I also ask, as above, when is gelling completed? Or is ever really completed at all? And also, what of these other competitions that teams/players are engaged with? Some of the lesser comps, teams oft times play their 2nd tier players. Have they had chances to "gel" as a unit? What of international comps and world cups? Most of those teams are comprised of players (albeit mostly very good) that join in just to play a given game. Where does gelling fit in there? I'm sure World Cup squads do not spend the same amount of practice time in preparation (lack of gel) as teams/players do for the regular season league action.
I don't wish to re-run this whole debate but regarding the specific points made above, logically, these points don't seem to me to in any way contradict the central argument that teams perform better when their players have had time to 'gel'.
For example, as to the question, "when is gelling completed?", the answer is never. So what? A weightlifter spends hours in the gym and eating high-protein foods to improve his performance, and you could ask the same question - when is all that training and eating completed? Again the answer would be, well, never. But that doesn't in any way mean all that training and eating doesn't improve his performance.
As to the point about international games, it's widely known that the lack of time training together hinders international teams. Duh. So what?
Ok, so....DUH!! Let's just use lack of gelling as a never ending excuse. Gotta always have an excuse in ones' back pocket for poor performance.
Well, you seem to be the only one talking about never ending excuses. We are however 7 games into a 46 games season, with a team with many new faces. Just because someone then is using lack of gelling as an "excuse" (explanation is probably a better word) for performances that doesn't seem to reflect the individual quality of the players doesn't mean that the same excuse is valid for eternity regardless of the consequences. Contexts change with time. Just because it is claimed that gelling never ends (which of course is true), doesn't mean that each passing day is as valuable (think of diminishing returns).
I know of course that gelling never ends. I posed as a question, but also intended as statement too.... "Or is ever really completed at all?"
"doesn't mean that the same excuse is valid for eternity regardless of the consequences. Contexts change with time."
Understood.
"Well, you seem to be the only one talking about never ending excuses."
Ok, I'll be quiet now. I'll behave.
(I still haven't been convinced that bedding in/gelling isn't overblown. I am, of course, open to differing views. Ok, NOW I'll be quiet.)
:)
There's no 'I' in Team.
Sorry but today re-enforces my opinion. 71% possession. 1 goal. Less shots than Sheff Wed, sit back last 15 mins, get punished. Has Parker/we learnt nothing.
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 21, 2019, 04:58:58 PM
Sorry but today re-enforces my opinion. 71% possession. 1 goal. Less shots than Sheff Wed, sit back last 15 mins, get punished. Has Parker/we learnt nothing.
Yeah, really really disappointing result. How many more times is this team, and we as followers, gonna continue to get our collective heads bashed in?
Brutal, just brutal......
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on September 18, 2019, 11:33:13 AM
Fair comments although I'm certain a manager would have significant input into something as key as the tempo his side play
Parker's post-match comments after Reading essentially confirm for the avoidance of doubt the slow tempo up to now hasn't been due to a specific instruction from Parker to play slow. Talks about "moving the ball very quickly" and "with intensity"
