As soon as Le Marchant came on as sub I just knew that we would lose the game.
Apart from not heading the ball away for their first goal he was just awful.
I know that most of our team just did not turn up on Saturday so we were outplayed .
Please Mr Parker don't pick LE Marchant again. Even as a sub.
He is a player we need to get rid of.
We haven't had a centre half partnership since the days of Hughes and Hangeland. Mind you they were superb so not so easy to replace. Hoping that Mawson and Hector can gel together in a similar way.
My view for what it's worth is that Le Marchand was the wrong option when Bryan went off injured. I would have moved Odoi to the left and brought Sess on.
He really is a pitiful defender.
My question would be; Why do we not have a backup for Joe then? And if we do, who?
Knowing the result, it's a painful match to rewatch. After doing so, however, I see no issues with how LeMarchand played overall. It's unfortunate because he'll always be judged from last year. Granted the goal doesn't help an argument in favor of him, but other than that I didn't see any significant errors. I recall he played well at LB last year, most notably away vs Chelsea. I think he needs to stay at the LB role versus covering CBs.
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on November 04, 2019, 10:35:08 PM
He is a player we need to get rid of.
Nothing could be more stupid than selling MLM, he is a player we 2000% don't want to get rid of, even if he doesn't play.
We pay MLM around £30,000 per week, and if we sell him we'll have to cut wages by £100,000 per week.
Frankly, i think he will be a strong 4th centre back in the second part of the season. While the first goal was partly his fault other players also are to blame.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on November 05, 2019, 06:09:10 AM
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on November 04, 2019, 10:35:08 PM
He is a player we need to get rid of.
Nothing could be more stupid than selling MLM, he is a player we 2000% don't want to get rid of, even if he doesn't play.
We pay MLM around £30,000 per week, and if we sell him we'll have to cut wages by £100,000 per week.
Frankly, i think he will be a strong 4th centre back in the second part of the season. While the first goal was partly his fault other players also are to blame.
Wait what? Why would selling him mean we have to cut wages
It was very poor defending from MLM, but also Mawson dived in further up the pitch leaving us exposed at the back which lead to the goal
When he plays, we lose. He's a Jonah, and isn't that talented.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on November 05, 2019, 06:09:10 AM
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on November 04, 2019, 10:35:08 PM
He is a player we need to get rid of.
Nothing could be more stupid than selling MLM, he is a player we 2000% don't want to get rid of, even if he doesn't play.
We pay MLM around £30,000 per week, and if we sell him we'll have to cut wages by £100,000 per week.
Frankly, i think he will be a strong 4th centre back in the second part of the season. While the first goal was partly his fault other players also are to blame.
I absolutely do not understand this point. Why is losing his wages off our wage bill a bad thing & how will it impact other wages? MLM is a liability as a player, with Hector in he's 4th choice CB & 3rd choice LB - personally I want more for 30k pw!
I made the observation after about 30 minutes that it reminded me of a schoolboys game where you have the little boy in the team making up the numbers and no one passes to him. Not that MLM is small but it did seem in a number of cases that the passer turned away from him rather than giving him the ball. A lack of confidence in what he would be doing with it?
Quote from: Stoneleigh Loyalist on November 05, 2019, 09:33:52 AM
I made the observation after about 30 minutes that it reminded me of a schoolboys game where you have the little boy in the team making up the numbers and no one passes to him. Not that MLM is small but it did seem in a number of cases that the passer turned away from him rather than giving him the ball. A lack of confidence in what he would be doing with it?
Well observed and not just true of Max Le Marchand, and something that is usually dealt with in training and coaching processes.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on November 05, 2019, 06:09:10 AM
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on November 04, 2019, 10:35:08 PM
He is a player we need to get rid of.
Nothing could be more stupid than selling MLM, he is a player we 2000% don't want to get rid of, even if he doesn't play.
We pay MLM around £30,000 per week, and if we sell him we'll have to cut wages by £100,000 per week.
Frankly, i think he will be a strong 4th centre back in the second part of the season. While the first goal was partly his fault other players also are to blame.
I don't know whether I should laugh or cry at such b@ll@cks!
If he isn't passing the ball to the opposition he's avoiding any physical battle in the most physical of leagues.
I have 70 year old defenders in my walking football team who tackle better than him and walking football is a minimum contact game!
Quote from: The Rational Fan on November 05, 2019, 06:09:10 AM
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on November 04, 2019, 10:35:08 PM
He is a player we need to get rid of.
Nothing could be more stupid than selling MLM, he is a player we 2000% don't want to get rid of, even if he doesn't play.
We pay MLM around £30,000 per week, and if we sell him we'll have to cut wages by £100,000 per week.
Frankly, i think he will be a strong 4th centre back in the second part of the season. While the first goal was partly his fault other players also are to blame.
We have no idea what his book value is. Some on here claim half the £25m we paid for Seri and MLM (ie, £12m+) was allocated to MLM. Equally I wouldn't be surprised if his book value is only £3m. So who knows how selling him would affect our finances? It could be positive.
Economics aside, I refuse to believe a player with his track record isn't good enough to be, as you say, a useful 4th choice CB in the second tier. Yes he's been woeful but clearly his confidence is shot. The right manager could probably restore that and make at least a decent Championship CB out of him.
Quote from: Whitestone on November 04, 2019, 10:54:06 PM
We haven't had a centre half partnership since the days of Hughes and Hangeland. Mind you they were superb so not so easy to replace. Hoping that Mawson and Hector can gel together in a similar way.
My view for what it's worth is that Le Marchand was the wrong option when Bryan went off injured. I would have moved Odoi to the left and brought Sess on.
It will be Ream and Hector with Mawson as back up. Or perhaps a three?
Quote from: toshes mate on November 05, 2019, 09:55:18 AM
Quote from: Stoneleigh Loyalist on November 05, 2019, 09:33:52 AM
I made the observation after about 30 minutes that it reminded me of a schoolboys game where you have the little boy in the team making up the numbers and no one passes to him. Not that MLM is small but it did seem in a number of cases that the passer turned away from him rather than giving him the ball. A lack of confidence in what he would be doing with it?
Well observed and not just true of Max Le Marchand, and something that is usually dealt with in training and coaching processes.
I'm not sure I follow this logic. At least, it was not displayed or seemed to be validated on the pitch. Again, from watching the replay 90 minutes, LeMarchand is quite involved in our possession and attacks. He does exactly what Bryan does defensively in pressuring very high and wide. His crossing quality isn't as strong as Bryan, but he also did not get many chances to do so.
Have you ever wondered how we are able to maintain such high possession against most teams? It's because Parker's system is built on using the opposition's width against them. Our wingers are the primary passing lane, as they are checking back to the ball. This allows the fullbacks to be a secondary passing lane. The third passing lane is the advanced midfielder. The fullbacks also have the freedom to tuck in central, like a defensive midfielder, when the ball is on the opposite side.
30 minutes into the match, LeMarchand has multiple passes received, well involved, including 3 tackles. The one time an obvious pass could have been made to him was when Ream bypassed MLM and Cavaleiro to a direct 20 yard pass to TC. The reason TC was open is because both Cav and LeMarchand were wide, and the opposing defending players had been moved from side to side on the previous sequence where MLM had tucked inside briefly, resulting in Hull to over-commit. That was enough for Ream to send in a direct pass to TC, in which he sent a lovely low cross, but no-one was able to get on the end of it.
There were 2-3 sequences in which LeMarchand could've been played in, but Odoi experienced the same on the other side. The reason they do not receive the pass is because they are not the primary recipient. When the primary recipient is the winger, it lengthens the pitch and creates a less obvious triangle. So Ream plays to Cav, who can play back to Ream, turn, play center, or pass back wide to MLM. Odoi on the other side has this with Reid and Mawson. This type of attacking sequence disguises itself as playing slow, but is actually quite effective because the obvious passing lanes are not taken, making it quite difficult to set up a proper defensive strategy. It's another reason we do not see a lot of overlapping fullbacks like in Slav's system because that narrows our width and narrows the passing lanes.
I know it's very popular to root against LeMarchand. He hasn't helped himself in the past. However, he did not have a bad match at all. This narrative that he wasn't being played in by the other boys is a bit of a reach. He slotted in well for our system, and I remain in favor of him playing as a left back versus center back. It does no good to break the team apart, player-by-player, but I completely understand why he's a target. Like a couple of our players from last year, until he either assists or scores goals, I don't think he will be welcomed on the pitch by Fulham supporters for a while. Thankfully he's a professional, and seems to be well liked, and can hopefully rise above the adversity - which goes for all our players and coaches.
Judging Le Marchand based on his passing is like judging Bettinelli on his hold up play.
He isn't a very good defender. When he is on the pitch, we lose. It IS as simple as that.
When Hector comes in, hopefully he is moved on.
Quote from: Statto on November 05, 2019, 10:38:43 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on November 05, 2019, 06:09:10 AM
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on November 04, 2019, 10:35:08 PM
He is a player we need to get rid of.
Nothing could be more stupid than selling MLM, he is a player we 2000% don't want to get rid of, even if he doesn't play.
We pay MLM around £30,000 per week, and if we sell him we'll have to cut wages by £100,000 per week.
Frankly, i think he will be a strong 4th centre back in the second part of the season. While the first goal was partly his fault other players also are to blame.
We have no idea what his book value is. Some on here claim half the £25m we paid for Seri and MLM (ie, £12m+) was allocated to MLM. Equally I wouldn't be surprised if his book value is only £3m. So who knows how selling him would affect our finances? It could be positive.
Economics aside, I refuse to believe a player with his track record isn't good enough to be, as you say, a useful 4th choice CB in the second tier. Yes he's been woeful but clearly his confidence is shot. The right manager could probably restore that and make at least a decent Championship CB out of him.
Ah I'm now with the logic of the selling him is madness thing. As you say it depends on what his official fee was - the Seri/MLM deal was a disaster in many ways as well as being allegedly dodgy. If he value was artificially increased as part of the deal then probably the best thing we can do is farm him off to a French club on loan and see if anyone is willing to pay his wages or at least part of them.
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on November 06, 2019, 09:07:55 AM
Judging Le Marchand based on his passing is like judging Bettinelli on his hold up play.
He isn't a very good defender. When he is on the pitch, we lose. It IS as simple as that.
When Hector comes in, hopefully he is moved on.
A completely meaningless comparison. Passing is a big part of our defenders game. Hold up play is not a part of Bettinelli's game. Also, almost nothing is ever as simple as just describing something in the most subjective and shallow way possible. Not even if one uses capital letters.
With that said, never been a fan of MLM myself, but as Matt points out, it will always be an uphill battle for most of the players brought in for our remarkably unsuccessful PL campaign. I would probably rate MLM in the same bracket as Odoi and Ream which is competent but not great Championship defenders.
Quote from: Sting of the North on November 06, 2019, 09:22:20 AM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on November 06, 2019, 09:07:55 AM
Judging Le Marchand based on his passing is like judging Bettinelli on his hold up play.
He isn't a very good defender. When he is on the pitch, we lose. It IS as simple as that.
When Hector comes in, hopefully he is moved on.
A completely meaningless comparison. Passing is a big part of our defenders game. Hold up play is not a part of Bettinelli's game. Also, almost nothing is ever as simple as just describing something in the most subjective and shallow way possible. Not even if one uses capital letters.
With that said, never been a fan of MLM myself, but as Matt points out, it will always be an uphill battle for most of the players brought in for our remarkably unsuccessful PL campaign. I would probably rate MLM in the same bracket as Odoi and Ream which is competent but not great Championship defenders.
Disagree - Ream was possibly our player of the season when we won the playoffs & Odoi invaluable when Kalas form dropped, even scoring the key goal to get us to the final. Odoi still a valuable squad player who's versatility is excellent & useful, Ream who's standards may have dropped some with age/injuries is still a much better defender than MLM who is and always has been a bit rubbish really.
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on November 06, 2019, 09:26:32 AM
Quote from: Sting of the North on November 06, 2019, 09:22:20 AM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on November 06, 2019, 09:07:55 AM
Judging Le Marchand based on his passing is like judging Bettinelli on his hold up play.
He isn't a very good defender. When he is on the pitch, we lose. It IS as simple as that.
When Hector comes in, hopefully he is moved on.
A completely meaningless comparison. Passing is a big part of our defenders game. Hold up play is not a part of Bettinelli's game. Also, almost nothing is ever as simple as just describing something in the most subjective and shallow way possible. Not even if one uses capital letters.
With that said, never been a fan of MLM myself, but as Matt points out, it will always be an uphill battle for most of the players brought in for our remarkably unsuccessful PL campaign. I would probably rate MLM in the same bracket as Odoi and Ream which is competent but not great Championship defenders.
Disagree - Ream was possibly our player of the season when we won the playoffs & Odoi invaluable when Kalas form dropped, even scoring the key goal to get us to the final. Odoi still a valuable squad player who's versatility is excellent & useful, Ream who's standards may have dropped some with age/injuries is still a much better defender than MLM who is and always has been a bit rubbish really.
And still neither of them really managed to outperform MLM in our PL season (all three of them looked out of their depth). Both of them also looked half decent at best at the start of their Fulham careers. It is not like MLM has ever been given the opportunity to play regularly in an at least decently functioning Fulham team. Therefore it is easy for fans to just lazily assume that MLM can never be a decent defender at this level. Just look at your own last sentence above, to me it looks like you have long ago apparently made up your mind on him. I guess that is more convenient.
Quote from: Sting of the North on November 06, 2019, 10:07:33 AM
Quote from: Spirit of 2000 on November 06, 2019, 09:26:32 AM
Quote from: Sting of the North on November 06, 2019, 09:22:20 AM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on November 06, 2019, 09:07:55 AM
Judging Le Marchand based on his passing is like judging Bettinelli on his hold up play.
He isn't a very good defender. When he is on the pitch, we lose. It IS as simple as that.
When Hector comes in, hopefully he is moved on.
A completely meaningless comparison. Passing is a big part of our defenders game. Hold up play is not a part of Bettinelli's game. Also, almost nothing is ever as simple as just describing something in the most subjective and shallow way possible. Not even if one uses capital letters.
With that said, never been a fan of MLM myself, but as Matt points out, it will always be an uphill battle for most of the players brought in for our remarkably unsuccessful PL campaign. I would probably rate MLM in the same bracket as Odoi and Ream which is competent but not great Championship defenders.
Disagree - Ream was possibly our player of the season when we won the playoffs & Odoi invaluable when Kalas form dropped, even scoring the key goal to get us to the final. Odoi still a valuable squad player who's versatility is excellent & useful, Ream who's standards may have dropped some with age/injuries is still a much better defender than MLM who is and always has been a bit rubbish really.
And still neither of them really managed to outperform MLM in our PL season (all three of them looked out of their depth). Both of them also looked half decent at best at the start of their Fulham careers. It is not like MLM has ever been given the opportunity to play regularly in an at least decently functioning Fulham team. Therefore it is easy for fans to just lazily assume that MLM can never be a decent defender at this level. Just look at your own last sentence above, to me it looks like you have long ago apparently made up your mind on him. I guess that is more convenient.
To slightly counter your point, have you ever seen MLM play well in this team because I'm struggling. So unless he trains well that you see and I don't, he's just not performing at a high enough level to warrant much praise to be honest.
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 06, 2019, 10:12:24 AM
To slightly counter your point, have you ever seen MLM play well in this team because I'm struggling. So unless he trains well that you see and I don't, he's just not performing at a high enough level to warrant much praise to be honest.
I do not see that as a counter to my point, since it took many games before I saw Ream play well in our team. Which was one of my points. But to clarify, I did not think MLM for most PL games looked worse than Ream or Odoi, and in fact he did look decent to me several times. I am however a much bigger fan of both Ream and Odoi because I have good memories of them playing. Even under our promotion season however they did not in my opinion look that great, but they did fit very well into the way we played. Odoi is in fact one of my favourite Fulham players.
This season I have seen very little of MLM. I have so far only managed to watch first half against Hull. MLM looked decent to me, but he is no full back in my book. I have seen nothing to suggest that he is and always have been "a bit rubbish".
I think it a bit unfair to blame MLM for the first goal.
Mawson missed a tackle on the half way line , and went to ground, taken out of the game, and Hull attacked at pace, unopposed down the left. They took us apart with fast, skilful break, when we were attacking and lost possession,as often seems to happen this season.
I doubt if MLM could have got a head to the cross, but did block the immediate shot, but then turned his back on the player, seeming to lose his bearings. He had also just come on and was still getting used to the pace of the game.
I don't think he did a lot wrong apart from that, but isn't really an lb, and better as a cb, though prone to error as we know but on this occasion i don't think he was solely, or mainly, to blame.
Quote from: Sting of the North on November 06, 2019, 10:25:20 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 06, 2019, 10:12:24 AM
To slightly counter your point, have you ever seen MLM play well in this team because I'm struggling. So unless he trains well that you see and I don't, he's just not performing at a high enough level to warrant much praise to be honest.
I do not see that as a counter to my point, since it took many games before I saw Ream play well in our team. Which was one of my points. But to clarify, I did not think MLM for most PL games looked worse than Ream or Odoi, and in fact he did look decent to me several times. I am however a much bigger fan of both Ream and Odoi because I have good memories of them playing. Even under our promotion season however they did not in my opinion look that great, but they did fit very well into the way we played. Odoi is in fact one of my favourite Fulham players.
This season I have seen very little of MLM. I have so far only managed to watch first half against Hull. MLM looked decent to me, but he is no full back in my book. I have seen nothing to suggest that he is and always have been "a bit rubbish".
Could you be specific on good performances because they have alluded me? I'll grant its probably fair to say he's bad in a bad bunch and no one excelled but I'm yet to see any performances where I think he gives much to this team and in most appearances I've seen him, has a contribution to a goal conceded. Now, I'm not blaming him solely for first goal against Hull but having listened to the Hull commentary 'I have to say Marchand switched off there' and I have to agree, i think he did albeit, there were more errors in the build up to this goal but MLM should of done better too.
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 06, 2019, 10:39:30 AM
Could you be specific on good performances because they have alluded me? I'll grant its probably fair to say he's bad in a bad bunch and no one excelled but I'm yet to see any performances where I think he gives much to this team and in most appearances I've seen him, has a contribution to a goal conceded. Now, I'm not blaming him solely for first goal against Hull but having listened to the Hull commentary 'I have to say Marchand switched off there' and I have to agree, i think he did albeit, there were more errors in the build up to this goal but MLM should of done better too.
Note that I specifically said decent performances, because in my opinion he has never looked more than that so far.
I know that I thought that he looked decent in our run in last season. He definitely played a big part in our three consecutive clean sheets, for example.
Quote from: Sting of the North on November 06, 2019, 11:00:55 AM
Quote from: FFC1987 on November 06, 2019, 10:39:30 AM
Could you be specific on good performances because they have alluded me? I'll grant its probably fair to say he's bad in a bad bunch and no one excelled but I'm yet to see any performances where I think he gives much to this team and in most appearances I've seen him, has a contribution to a goal conceded. Now, I'm not blaming him solely for first goal against Hull but having listened to the Hull commentary 'I have to say Marchand switched off there' and I have to agree, i think he did albeit, there were more errors in the build up to this goal but MLM should of done better too.
Note that I specifically said decent performances, because in my opinion he has never looked more than that so far.
I know that I thought that he looked decent in our run in last season. He definitely played a big part in our three consecutive clean sheets, for example.
yeh, I just don't see it. Even in those clean sheets, we were rather fortunate and rode our luck at times with teams missing a shed load of chances! Hopefully he coems good and starts to excel but its hard to see with recent performances.
Quote from: Sting of the North on November 06, 2019, 09:22:20 AM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on November 06, 2019, 09:07:55 AM
Judging Le Marchand based on his passing is like judging Bettinelli on his hold up play.
He isn't a very good defender. When he is on the pitch, we lose. It IS as simple as that.
When Hector comes in, hopefully he is moved on.
A completely meaningless comparison. Passing is a big part of our defenders game. Hold up play is not a part of Bettinelli's game. Also, almost nothing is ever as simple as just describing something in the most subjective and shallow way possible. Not even if one uses capital letters.
With that said, never been a fan of MLM myself, but as Matt points out, it will always be an uphill battle for most of the players brought in for our remarkably unsuccessful PL campaign. I would probably rate MLM in the same bracket as Odoi and Ream which is competent but not great Championship defenders.
I thought it was an obviously overly dramatic comparison to make the point, which obviously stands - I didn't think anyone would take the idea seriously. This board. Not much nuance or fun, is there?
On another note, what evidence do you have to show that Le Marchand is at the level of Ream?
It wouldn't be an uphill battle for him if he was, you know, good.
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on November 06, 2019, 04:41:12 PM
I thought it was an obviously overly dramatic comparison to make the point, which obviously stands - I didn't think anyone would take the idea seriously. This board. Not much nuance or fun, is there?
On another note, what evidence do you have to show that Le Marchand is at the level of Ream?
It wouldn't be an uphill battle for him if he was, you know, good.
It was an obvious exaggeration yes, but my point was that your point was wrong not that I took your example at face value. To try to be a bit clearer about what my opinion on this is; Passing as well as other attacking skills are very important parts of the game of our defenders. That's why players such as Ream and Bryan with questionable pure defensive capabilities works generally rather well in this team. As such, assessing the players ability to pass is a valuable part of assessing how good he is within our system.
On your second note, I did not know that one needed to provide evidence to support something subjective such as an opinion. I merely tried to point out that in my opinion neither Ream, Odoi or MLM are great championship defenders, but that I also do not believe that any of them are crap. I believe that given a run in a fairly successful team at this level, there is a decent chance that MLM would look fairly good.
On your last note, I completely disagree that the general appreciation of a player is necessarily just an objective reflection of how good they are.
Sting, you don't have to evidence it - just bad phrasing from me. Better would have been for to ask 'why do you feel that way?'. It's not something I think many others would feel re Le Marchand compared to Ream - wasn't trying to be a d***.
Re defenders being judged on passing, it's my opinion that yes, every player should be reasonable at the basics, but when I'm judging a player I'm going to judge them first and foremost on the KPI's of their position as I see them. For a defender, their ability defending and others come long before their passing. In the same way I wouldn't judge Mitrovic on his marking anywhere close to being an important marker for him.
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on November 07, 2019, 09:51:01 AM
Sting, you don't have to evidence it - just bad phrasing from me. Better would have been for to ask 'why do you feel that way?'. It's not something I think many others would feel re Le Marchand compared to Ream - wasn't trying to be a d***.
Re defenders being judged on passing, it's my opinion that yes, every player should be reasonable at the basics, but when I'm judging a player I'm going to judge them first and foremost on the KPI's of their position as I see them. For a defender, their ability defending and others come long before their passing. In the same way I wouldn't judge Mitrovic on his marking anywhere close to being an important marker for him.
No worries, did not take it in that manner initially either. I tried to explain my reasoning above. The point is not really that i think MLM is very good, but rather that we have several not very good players in a similar position that has, at least occasionally, performed very well within the team. MLM has been a regular in a good Ligue 1 team, which to me says that it is likely that he can perform on at least a half decent Championship level. I also think that neither of MLM, Ream or Odoi is good enough to be a regular starter in the PL. My further point was that basically no one rated Ream for a good while after he first arrived, and that it is not unlikely at all that MLM given a good run in the team would also be able to improve his performances. Confidence is after all an important ingredient for most players to perform well.
On your other point, I am happy to disagree on whether passing ability is an important KPI for defenders within this Fulham team.
