My two cents...
I've previously been pro giving Parker the time he needs, before we can assess him as a manager. I still think think sacking him before the end of the season will unfortunately not help us much, but I just think the game is up now.
The football has become so hallow and empty. It just feels pedestrian and gutless. I think the results we are getting are generally pretty good overall but something is missing. Last night was the first time in years I felt genuinely bored and disinterested (minus the last 10 mins because of Rodak's heroics) watching Fulham play football. It frustrates me greatly that I feel this way, I want to tell myself it's the results that matter and that Parker grinds out results. But we are seriously lacking the spark, hunger and passion that every team needs to both succeed in the long run and keep the support of the fans. I think we have probably seen it twice this season (Millwall and Middlesborough first half). My view now is that Parker is a pretty pointless endeavour, in the long run this isn't going to work and at the end of the season we should sever ties with Parker come May.
Football is a game of passion and enjoyment. I think Parkerball is a sap on that. It is a shame as I thought he had good potential, but this stubbornness to adopt even the remotest bit of pace in our play will unfortunately be the end of him as our manager.
In terms of who we should bring in... David Wagner would be my dream. A proven winner but also with the positive and energetic mindset we so desperately require at this club. I doubt Wagner would come based on where he is now but I for one hope TK/SK can work their magic and install a bit of positivity back into this club we all love!
Yes last night was anther poor performance with us scoring just that one goal and not creating many, if any, chances.
This has now happened for a number of games and Parker has continued with the same tactics, a change of approach is clearly needed.
However if at the end of the season we are promoted we will be praising Parker for having faith and sticking to his ideals. If we fail Parker will be written off as obstinate and we will be seeking a new manager.
The best we can do is to get behind the team and the manager for the rest of the season.
Quote from: filham on February 22, 2020, 10:37:25 AM
Yes last night was anther poor performance with us scoring just that one goal and not creating many, if any, chances.
This has now happened for a number of games and Parker has continued with the same tactics, a change of approach is clearly needed.
However if at the end of the season we are promoted we will be praising Parker for having faith and sticking to his ideals. If we fail Parker will be written off as obstinate and we will be seeking a new manager.
The best we can do is to get behind the team and the manager for the rest of the season.
Ruthless may it sound, if Parker wins promotion with this kind of football I would take a page out of Watford's book: thank him, say goodbye and look for a different manager.
Quote from: mattFFC on February 22, 2020, 10:22:37 AM
My two cents...
I've previously been pro giving Parker the time he needs, before we can assess him as a manager. I still think think sacking him before the end of the season will unfortunately not help us much, but I just think the game is up now.
The football has become so hallow and empty. It just feels pedestrian and gutless. I think the results we are getting are generally pretty good overall but something is missing. Last night was the first time in years I felt genuinely bored and disinterested (minus the last 10 mins because of Rodak's heroics) watching Fulham play football. It frustrates me greatly that I feel this way, I want to tell myself it's the results that matter and that Parker grinds out results. But we are seriously lacking the spark, hunger and passion that every team needs to both succeed in the long run and keep the support of the fans. I think we have probably seen it twice this season (Millwall and Middlesborough first half). My view now is that Parker is a pretty pointless endeavour, in the long run this isn't going to work and at the end of the season we should sever ties with Parker come May.
Football is a game of passion and enjoyment. I think Parkerball is a sap on that. It is a shame as I thought he had good potential, but this stubbornness to adopt even the remotest bit of pace in our play will unfortunately be the end of him as our manager.
In terms of who we should bring in... David Wagner would be my dream. A proven winner but also with the positive and energetic mindset we so desperately require at this club. I doubt Wagner would come based on where he is now but I for one hope TK/SK can work their magic and install a bit of positivity back into this club we all love!
I share your sentiments Matt.
Apart from the last bit about TK/SK "working their magic"!!
🤔
The biggest issue for me is that as a possession based team, we're so passive when we have the ball. If the emphasis is on possession based football which I think is the best route to take with the players we have, we need to be more proactive when we've got the ball, which it's fairly evident we aren't. I don't know how Parker has managed it but we've gone from having decent movement early in the season to now being a bunch of statues in possession. He needs to sort the shape of the midfield three out because he's always got two central midfielders pushed so high they can't affect the game in the same way. At least under Joka he took TC and allowed him to be deeper and get on the ball more, whereas now he's so high that as soon as he gets it he has to go backwards as he'll be with his back to goal and pressured by their defence.
The other issue we have is that by playing Odoi at RB it means we create nothing down that flank. Knockaert is a one trick pony who's always going to cut inside, and Odoi never gets up to support him. For all of the flak he gets on here, at least Bryan bombs forward with Cav or BDR and actually creates chances. A decent RB may help to address some of the creativity issues, but Parker or whoever replaces him needs to instil a sense of urgency in the team and a way of making sure they actually move off the ball to create some space and pull teams out of position, because at the moment they can sit with two banks of four and two strikers pressing us and not break a sweat
I could see we had the players up front for that last 65 minutes to really put so many of these CS teams to the sword but as you say we still somehow seem to not have that cutting edge in the final third.
Lacking intensity and directness of play.
We need to coach these players to counter attack and play the ball quicker. We need to coach them to play the dangerous ball and not always the safe ball.
The Cav, Mitro, AK, Reid front 4 seems like a good way to start the next game to me however.
Been saying this for months, it's not the result it's the manner of the results that bores me.
I don't care which division we were in I'd say the same thing.
Parker's brand of football is plain dull.
Quote from: Luka on February 22, 2020, 06:55:38 PM
Been saying this for months, it's not the result it's the manner of the results that bores me.
I don't care which division we were in I'd say the same thing.
Parker's brand of football is plain dull.
And stifling all talent in the team. Rodak keeps us in games and Mitro is a class above scoring when fed on scraps..
Quote from: Luka on February 22, 2020, 06:55:38 PM
Been saying this for months, it's not the result it's the manner of the results that bores me.
I don't care which division we were in I'd say the same thing.
Parker's brand of football is plain dull.
100%. As I said during the game last night, to a degree I couldn't give a monkeys if we won, drew or lost, the football was painful to watch. Beyond boring and I actually dislike watching us under Parker.
I would feel as if I could give Parker some leeway if I thought he was at least trying to get us to be more entertaining. Comments such as those he made following last night's game, however, leave me short of hope:
"I felt like first half we had a lot of control but lacked a little bit of impetus."
"Their goal comes out of nothing really, and then after that my team showed unbelievable character, unbelievable mentality..."
"It's a point gained for us... and I'm happy."
It seems that Parker has little - if any - idea how uninspiring our football is to watch and is over-rating that which the team does achieve. Neither of which makes me think that he is keen to exact more from the players and that more exciting football is around the corner.
In spite of this, I am finding the battle to be promoted/reach the play-offs an interesting one. I still hope that, against the odds, we can go up.
We don't make anyone pay for pressing us. There's almost no risk to the opponent for trying to force the kind of mistake that led to Derby's goal.
And why oh why hasn't gray stepped up and told Parker that something needs to change. I'm not having anyone at the club from shad down to the groundsman, can think what we are doing is the right way to go about it.
Quote from: Denver Fulham on February 22, 2020, 07:40:54 PM7
We don't make anyone pay for pressing us. There's almost no risk to the opponent for trying to force the kind of mistake that led to Derby's goal.
The second great point ive seen today.
The first being
" absolutely no risks in the attacking third but if we're in our own penalty area feel free to express yourself."
1000% agree with this Post!!
Quote from: mattFFC on February 22, 2020, 10:22:37 AM
My two cents...
I've previously been pro giving Parker the time he needs, before we can assess him as a manager. I still think think sacking him before the end of the season will unfortunately not help us much, but I just think the game is up now.
The football has become so hallow and empty. It just feels pedestrian and gutless. I think the results we are getting are generally pretty good overall but something is missing. Last night was the first time in years I felt genuinely bored and disinterested (minus the last 10 mins because of Rodak's heroics) watching Fulham play football. It frustrates me greatly that I feel this way, I want to tell myself it's the results that matter and that Parker grinds out results. But we are seriously lacking the spark, hunger and passion that every team needs to both succeed in the long run and keep the support of the fans. I think we have probably seen it twice this season (Millwall and Middlesborough first half). My view now is that Parker is a pretty pointless endeavour, in the long run this isn't going to work and at the end of the season we should sever ties with Parker come May.
Football is a game of passion and enjoyment. I think Parkerball is a sap on that. It is a shame as I thought he had good potential, but this stubbornness to adopt even the remotest bit of pace in our play will unfortunately be the end of him as our manager.
In terms of who we should bring in... David Wagner would be my dream. A proven winner but also with the positive and energetic mindset we so desperately require at this club. I doubt Wagner would come based on where he is now but I for one hope TK/SK can work their magic and install a bit of positivity back into this club we all love!
I like Wagner, but I don't see him leaving Schalke for Fulham. Way bigger club and they're fighting for the Champions League. We might could see way down the road at Fulham though, after he's petered out at some bigger clubs.
Quote from: fulhamben on February 22, 2020, 07:45:20 PM
And why oh why hasn't gray stepped up and told Parker that something needs to change. I'm not having anyone at the club from shad down to the groundsman, can think what we are doing is the right way to go about it.
Once, you promote one assistant manager (like Scott Parker) for failing to assist the manager (Raneri). I think it is not surprising that the next assistant manager (like Stuart Gray) does exactly what got the last assistant manager (Parker) promoted. Let's face it, Parker is only in the job because Jocavokic and Raneri failed with him as the assistant.
I'm still in the Parker camp,he will be given time I think that's quite obvious.
If they do dump him,I'd like to see Alex Neil of Preston get a chance.
Took Norwich up,and now has a chance of doing it with Preston,with a Squad that cost nowt.
Wonder how good he'd be with a set of players like ours.
Quote from: fulhamben on February 22, 2020, 07:45:20 PM
And why oh why hasn't gray stepped up and told Parker that something needs to change. I'm not having anyone at the club from shad down to the groundsman, can think what we are doing is the right way to go about it.
There are of course many potential answers to this. One of them is of course that some people (for example Gray, the Khans and the groundsman) are potentially in disagreement with you. Happens to most people most of the time that everyone else won't have the same view on things, so should probably be considered.
Absolutely share the feelings of the OP.
I have lost count of the times I have been frustrated watching our games via repetition of mediocrity, a sure sign in my head that a team is not fit for purpose. It takes a long time for me to reach the point where I lose interest but Parker has had almost twelve months to prove his worth and I just cannot see where or how improvement is going to appear. The very holes in his thinking when he took over from Ranieri are still there. Has he not learned anything in that time and if not why not?
I know our owners cannot be trusted to find someone better than Parker, period, but I have this feeling deep down that even they would struggle to find someone who would take longer than Parker to actually get better at a job. For the sake of the Club I cannot wait to see the back of him and it hurts me to have to say that because I do realise what a risky business finding someone else is. But, sorry Scott, I have seen enough promotion or no promotion.
The following three statements sum it up for me:
1. I am a massive football fan and have lived and breathed Fulham for many years.
2. We are third place towards the end of the season.
3. I have no interest watching us play and almost regard it as a chore right now.
How can these add up? The style of play is so so dull and it's the same every week. I dont remember ever being so disinterested in all things Fulham. We have had much worse seasons and it wasnt so. Football is meant to be entertaining; we are not. I cant wait to get rid of Parker.
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on February 23, 2020, 12:25:35 PM
The following three statements sum it up for me:
1. I am a massive football fan and have lived and breathed Fulham for many years.
2. We are third place towards the end of the season.
3. I have no interest watching us play and almost regard it as a chore right now.
How can these add up? The style of play is so so dull and it's the same every week. I dont remember ever being so disinterested in all things Fulham. We have had much worse seasons and it wasnt so. Football is meant to be entertaining; we are not. I cant wait to get rid of Parker.
I've said it before, 42 years a fan and many promotion chasing seasons and this is the most underwhelming one ever. 3rd and I should be moving heaven and earth to get to games, but just haven't got the will for it.
I find myself watching games recently and rather than getting excited when we get over the half way line, I found myself more analysing exactly what it is we are trying to do.
After about 50 mins on Friday, hand on heart, I did think that maybe our strategy is to lull the opposition into a false sense of security. "We dont really want to score" "We're quite happy just knocking the ball about in our half", with maybe a last 15 minute change of heart and just catch them by surprise. It sort of happened.
Quote from: MJG on February 23, 2020, 01:10:02 PM
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on February 23, 2020, 12:25:35 PM
The following three statements sum it up for me:
1. I am a massive football fan and have lived and breathed Fulham for many years.
2. We are third place towards the end of the season.
3. I have no interest watching us play and almost regard it as a chore right now.
How can these add up? The style of play is so so dull and it's the same every week. I dont remember ever being so disinterested in all things Fulham. We have had much worse seasons and it wasnt so. Football is meant to be entertaining; we are not. I cant wait to get rid of Parker.
I've said it before, 42 years a fan and many promotion chasing seasons and this is the most underwhelming one ever. 3rd and I should be moving heaven and earth to get to games, but just haven't got the will for it.
These posts, unfortunately, I am in total agreement with.
Quote from: FFC73 on February 23, 2020, 02:52:45 PM
Quote from: MJG on February 23, 2020, 01:10:02 PM
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on February 23, 2020, 12:25:35 PM
The following three statements sum it up for me:
1. I am a massive football fan and have lived and breathed Fulham for many years.
2. We are third place towards the end of the season.
3. I have no interest watching us play and almost regard it as a chore right now.
How can these add up? The style of play is so so dull and it's the same every week. I dont remember ever being so disinterested in all things Fulham. We have had much worse seasons and it wasnt so. Football is meant to be entertaining; we are not. I cant wait to get rid of Parker.
I've said it before, 42 years a fan and many promotion chasing seasons and this is the most underwhelming one ever. 3rd and I should be moving heaven and earth to get to games, but just haven't got the will for it.
These posts, unfortunately, I am in total agreement with.
100% agree, we SHOULD be so excited about the next match and thinking it cannot come quickly enough. I find myself not enthused. I chose to work Friday night rather than watch the team I love. Why is this???
Parker is single handedly destroying all that is dear to so many who support this club.
For so many hardened life long Fulham fans to feel this ambivalent about watching, never mind actually going to a game is very sad.
Quote from: Luka on February 23, 2020, 04:24:06 PM
Parker is single handedly destroying all that is dear to so many who support this club.
For so many hardened life long Fulham fans to feel this ambivalent about watching, never mind actually going to a game is very sad.
I've been pretty vocal recently since I came to the conclusion that parker is crazily underperforming with this squad but parker is not getting anywhere near destroying my love for the club.
Step too far
My two cents....
I happen to think way too much being made of "pretty"/"boring" football. For me, I really don't care how pretty/boring or not the football is as long as there are three points for FFC at FT. Many of the draws and losses so far this season has forum fans complaining about boring football, but I suspect had FFC managed to find three points in those games, the forum discussions would be much different. It's all about results in my football world.
JMHO
I have been on the sudden if sticking with Parker but like so many have said the energy and excitement has slowly been sucked out of me.
Parker should be an anaesthetist
First World Problems?
Quote from: WindyCity on February 23, 2020, 04:36:38 PM
My two cents....
I happen to think way too much being made of "pretty"/"boring" football. For me, I really don't care how pretty/boring or not the football is as long as there are three points for FFC at FT. Many of the draws and losses so far this season has forum fans complaining about boring football, but I suspect had FFC managed to find three points in those games, the forum discussions would be much different. It's all about results in my football world.
JMHO
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Quote from: WindyCity on February 23, 2020, 04:36:38 PM
My two cents....
I happen to think way too much being made of "pretty"/"boring" football. For me, I really don't care how pretty/boring or not the football is as long as there are three points for FFC at FT. Many of the draws and losses so far this season has forum fans complaining about boring football, but I suspect had FFC managed to find three points in those games, the forum discussions would be much different. It's all about results in my football world.
JMHO
We're 3rd in the table and lots of us are complaining. I'm not a forum moaner. Far from it. When MJG starts moaning, you know you've got a problem. If we had turned the draws and defeats into wins, we'd have been playing a different style of play and I cannot imagine anyone of us would be moaning. We'd have also won every game we'd have played.
I kinda know what you mean. The last game I saw we got 3 points was Huddersfield at home. 3 fantastic goals aside, we were passive and second best all over the pitch and didn't deserve anything. I came out of ground a strange mix of happy and frustrated.
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on February 23, 2020, 12:25:35 PM
The following three statements sum it up for me:
1. I am a massive football fan and have lived and breathed Fulham for many years.
2. We are third place towards the end of the season.
3. I have no interest watching us play and almost regard it as a chore right now.
How can these add up? The style of play is so so dull and it's the same every week. I dont remember ever being so disinterested in all things Fulham. We have had much worse seasons and it wasnt so. Football is meant to be entertaining; we are not. I cant wait to get rid of Parker.
Quote from: Sgt Fulham on February 23, 2020, 12:25:35 PM
The following three statements sum it up for me:
1. I am a massive football fan and have lived and breathed Fulham for many years.
2. We are third place towards the end of the season.
3. I have no interest watching us play and almost regard it as a chore right now.
How can these add up? The style of play is so so dull and it's the same every week. I dont remember ever being so disinterested in all things Fulham. We have had much worse seasons and it wasnt so. Football is meant to be entertaining; we are not. I cant wait to get rid of Parker.
This totally sums up my feelings.
Tom Cairney is a shadow of the player he was. More back passes than forward passes-subbed so many times, it's hard to believe he is our captain.
He is, obviously, lacking in confidence and a lot of the blame must lie with the way Parker wants us to play
Check out the YouTube videos of Cavaleiro at Wolves and Knockaert at Brighton, just to remind yourselves how dynamic each was playing in teams that attacked with pace and intent. They both look world class. Knockaert in particular. Not just for his great goals and assists but his real wing magic-something we have not seen playing for us because of the pedestrian build up play that Parker has instituted
We got promoted with Wolves. Consider the vast difference between us and Wolves now
Forget Luton away-where we scored 3 times; Middlesbrough away-where we lost our keeper; Barnsley away-because it was the first game of the season-but check out our other away games. We have lost 20 points away from home by losing or drawing against teams that do not have a fraction of the talent our squad has. In each game, we showed zero attacking intent and played the same ponderous way that Parker insists on, creating minimal chances
Add to that the home defeats where we have been played off the park by inferior sides- Barnsley, Reading, Hull
Add to that the defensive lapses that resulted in goals for the opposition. By my count, at least 15 - 20 clear errors
Then we are told by MacDonald that the Barnsley defeat was only one game. Seriously, is he delusional?
Following the draw at Derby, Parker appears on Sky and announces to the nation that we are in 3rd position BECAUSE of the slow, pathetic way he has us playing. I am sure he felt good being able to answer his critics in that manner but the undeniable truth is that we are in 3rd place DESPITE the way he has us playing. We are still there (just) because of the failure of other teams around us. Pure luck. A loss against Swansea and we could drop to 5th. I don't believe there is a single Fulham fan who believes that we will go to Leeds and West Brom and take 3 points from both because Parker will have set us up, yet again, to play with no attacking intent
That means, Mr Parker, that we only have 10 other games to make a difference.
We need to show that we really WANT promotion. If we give 100% and fail, no true Fulham fan will complain
We just don't want to go out with a whimper
I think some forget that there are 2 teams on the field. They know how we play & they do all they can to frustrate us. As soon as Rodak has the ball they pull back into their own half apart from 2 pressing us high. When we play the ball to Bryan they then pull everyone back. It is then difficult to find a way through.
When Rodak does launch a long ball to Mitro he rarely has anyone to lay it off to. I don´t think our 4-3-3 works any longer. It is now too predictable. A change to 3-5-2 or 4-4-2 would give other teams something different to think about.
SP has to change our system if only to quieten the moaners.
All out attack, Keeganball rather than Parkerball with our attack we should be able to out score most teams in this division just need to be more adventurous.
For me there's 2 issues here:
Firstly, there's nothing wrong as such with possession football. I actually like it, be it Tigana style, or for example the Argentina goal against Serbia in the world cup a few years ago (Cambiasso?). Even the Barca Tiki-taka style, which everyone hated to watch, I loved it. But, the big difference is that the possession is probing - seemingly going nowhere for 15 passes until suddenly coming to life. If the opposition press, or the forward makes a good run, or the defender is slow to cover, the team bursts at the speed of lightning to exploit the gap created. Look at Man city at their best (last season), when pressed in a corner they can pass it and with 2-3 passes they have a break away where the opposition defence is overstretched. Or the goalie launching a long goal kick when the moment calls for it for the forward to run into space.
Alternatively there's a less expansive way of being successful, look at Hodgson when he was here or what Simeone did at Atletico before his team was somewhat dismantled. There's no disgrace in playing more organised or defensively, and actually I enjoy seeing a defensive minded team doing a number on another team - I think the stupid pundit phrase of the moment is 'a tactical masterclass'. But again, the key is that when the opportunity presents itself, the team must move the ball lightning fast to exploit an over committed opposition.
Either way, it's about moving the ball quickly, when the opportunity is there. So for me it's not so much about style as a whole, which I think masks the issue, but the style we're playing at the moment is not being done so effectively.
Pure luck is not determining league position after 30+ games. We are where we are, and the other teams are where they are because they deserve to be. Roughly at least, since luck or coincidences may of course have a marginal impact +/- a couple of points.
I don't believe we have been more lucky than anyone else. It is not lucky that you have a great striker, or a keeper making great saves. I would attribute things such as obvious incorrect decisions by the ref as definitely lucky/unlucky, but after that it gets blurrier.
Just because we are underperforming according to many doesn't mean that we are lucky that some other teams don't win. At least not more lucky than those teams are when we don't win. It's kind of a non-argument, in my opinion. At a stretch it can be deemed fortunate that this is an unusual hard fought division, but if it wasn't then maybe we would have benefited as much as some other teams.
I think there is a gameplan on the road to be a bit more conservative, while the plan at home is to be more dynamic. We've been guilty of being the cause of our own downfall in some matches as well, so less taking risks is the focus such as our right fullback does not go too far up the pitch because Bryan does that more than enough on his side. Playing out from the back is brave, but risky, yet the penalty we conceded could have been avoided.
The emphasis of our attack is possession, and building through the defensive third via quick combination passes or releasing Bryan for a cross. Our movement off the ball is one thing, but that's only half the battle, and movement becomes just aimless running if the players can't connect quickly enough. Multiple times in the Derby match one could see Reid and Knockaert trying to combine, but Knockaert's touches would often get him in a tighter spot than he started - resulting him trying to do too much.
I wouldn't say Parkerball is empty, it's just that the we have a possession based system that is built on multiple connections, and if one of those connections breaks down, the entire sequence is lost. The problem I see is that the starters do not exactly get behind a defensive line, so we play with our faces towards the ball more than run away from it. We also play a 4-3-3 that doesn't overlap both fullbacks because width is the priority, not necessarily penetration. I think the reason for that is because penetration results in a commitment, a risk, that we would rather not be caught out of position. Basically it's easier to regroup into shape if the shape never gets broken - or only breaks apart slightly.
While I loved the attack when we switched to a 3-5-2 vs Barnsley, we were well exposed in transition, and if Barnsley's forwards could have finished better, it would've been a 6-0 trashing instead of 3-0. When we switched to a 4-1-4-1 vs Derby, we were also a bit exposed, but not to the same level as against Barnsley. TC could drop back with Arter/Kmac, but would still give up decent amount of space as our other 4 attacking players (Mitro, Cav, Reid, Kamara) would have even more room to make up defensively.
Overall, I can understand why it may look boring. I don't necessarily fall in this camp because possession football, on the ground, is quite difficult to master and to openly accept as a style of play. It requires a lot of trust in the players, and the instant results are farther away than they would if someone just hoofed the ball over the top of the defensive line at any given time. In addition, I would also side with the boring play mantra if our shot total severely lessened. The reality is, it hasn't. 9 shots against Millwall, 21 against Barnsley and 17 against Derby. From that point of view, we are indeed getting up the pitch, we are moving the ball, and we are getting in some form of a position to shoot. We're not finishing our chances, and that to me is a reason to be more impatient than anything. We have top quality players on paper who are not scoring goals, not pulling their weight. They are doing great in creating the chances and goals, but when they're there to score...they aren't.
I'm sorry but I've got to laugh, there's literally nothing in this thread that I haven't been saying for months, and yet when I've said it I'm negative, I'm glass half full , I'm miserable and all other manner of abuse,
The truth is I'm actually more perceptive than people give me credit for, I've made my views well known in the past with regards to David Stockdale, Ryan Sessegnon and Ryan Christie and got slaughtered for them, I posted my thoughts on Scott Parker when he was still a rumour, look at how all those examples have turned out,
So I'd like to welcome all of you on here to the bandwagon , strap yourselves in because there is a bumpy road ahead, some of you have at last managed to grasp that we won't be securing automatic promotion, but these next six games will now determine whether or not we make the play offs , less than six points from these six games and the play off dream could well be over and hopefully so to will be the reign of Parker and Wells.
Quote from: Riversider on February 24, 2020, 02:05:26 PM
I'm sorry but I've got to laugh, there's literally nothing in this thread that I haven't been saying for months, and yet when I've said it I'm negative, I'm glass half full , I'm miserable and all other manner of abuse,
The truth is I'm actually more perceptive than people give me credit for, I've made my views well known in the past with regards to David Stockdale, Ryan Sessegnon and Ryan Christie and got slaughtered for them, I posted my thoughts on Scott Parker when he was still a rumour, look at how all those examples have turned out,
So I'd like to welcome all of you on here to the bandwagon , strap yourselves in because there is a bumpy road ahead, some of you have at last managed to grasp that we won't be securing automatic promotion, but these next six games will now determine whether or not we make the play offs , less than six points from these six games and the play off dream could well be over and hopefully so to will be the reign of Parker and Wells.
Even a stopped watch tells the right time twice a day
Quote from: Luka on February 23, 2020, 04:24:06 PM
Parker is single handedly destroying all that is dear to so many who support this club.
In an age of over reactions I think that the above beats the lot.
The best high possession football doesn't come from retaining the ball in areas the other team can't be damaged, it comes from pressing and winning the ball back so high and fast that the other team cannot manage to have any possession themselves.
The best teams who we recognise as possession teams down the years, ie Barca in the early Pep years, were able to do both, but the key was how they won the ball back as that allowed them to still be offensive and dynamic, and still be leading the possession statistic so well.
We need to change our thinking of this.
Plenty of valid points in this thread.
I think the main issue with the stupid tactics we've been employing all season, is that generally it results in the opposition being given more goal scoring opportunities (due to us losing the ball in dangerous areas) than we are creating ourselves (as the ball is never in the opposition penalty area).
How we play is incredibly easy to defend against, and teams know that they dont need to create anything themselves, as we'll give them high percentage scoring opportunities on our own.
The passing is slow, boring and directionless. The attacking players we have are totally being wasted. If we didnt have the best striker in the league (probably ever) up front to convert one of the half chances that comes his way, we'd be in alot of trouble. barely anyone else scores.
I personally think we'll fall away and wont make the playoffs. The sooner Parker is gone the better
Quote from: Ordar on February 24, 2020, 04:32:40 PM
Plenty of valid points in this thread.
I think the main issue with the stupid tactics we've been employing all season, is that generally it results in the opposition being given more goal scoring opportunities (due to us losing the ball in dangerous areas) than we are creating ourselves (as the ball is never in the opposition penalty area).
How we play is incredibly easy to defend against, and teams know that they dont need to create anything themselves, as we'll give them high percentage scoring opportunities on our own.
The passing is slow, boring and directionless. The attacking players we have are totally being wasted. If we didnt have the best striker in the league (probably ever) up front to convert one of the half chances that comes his way, we'd be in alot of trouble. barely anyone else scores.
I personally think we'll fall away and wont make the playoffs. The sooner Parker is gone the better
Mitro has had the most shots of any player in the division this season. He has a goals per shot of 0.17, TC for instance has had a lot less shots, but a goals per shot of 0.20. Ollie Watkins a lot less shots but a conversion of 0.3 goals per shot (the highest in division).
We've also had the 4th most touches in opposition area which discounts another of your arguments.
Oh, and the most goals from open play in the division, which shows that we're actually not that easy to defend against (and we've had over 100 more shots than our opponents have against us).
Having had the 4th most touches in the opposition area isn't a particularly great stat for anyone thinking we should be aiming to finish higher than 4th in the table.
Quote from: Jim© on February 24, 2020, 04:51:08 PM
Quote from: Ordar on February 24, 2020, 04:32:40 PM
Plenty of valid points in this thread.
I think the main issue with the stupid tactics we've been employing all season, is that generally it results in the opposition being given more goal scoring opportunities (due to us losing the ball in dangerous areas) than we are creating ourselves (as the ball is never in the opposition penalty area).
How we play is incredibly easy to defend against, and teams know that they dont need to create anything themselves, as we'll give them high percentage scoring opportunities on our own.
The passing is slow, boring and directionless. The attacking players we have are totally being wasted. If we didnt have the best striker in the league (probably ever) up front to convert one of the half chances that comes his way, we'd be in alot of trouble. barely anyone else scores.
I personally think we'll fall away and wont make the playoffs. The sooner Parker is gone the better
Mitro has had the most shots of any player in the division this season. He has a goals per shot of 0.17, TC for instance has had a lot less shots, but a goals per shot of 0.20. Ollie Watkins a lot less shots but a conversion of 0.3 goals per shot (the highest in division).
We've also had the 4th most touches in opposition area which discounts another of your arguments.
Oh, and the most goals from open play in the division, which shows that we're actually not that easy to defend against (and we've had over 100 more shots than our opponents have against us).
some might say 4th most touches because no one shoots and just pass backward and we have to score from open play as we don't do set-pieces and how many of those shots have been from outside of the area and how many have been clear cut chances
Wasn't the fourth most touches thing in direct response to the claim that we never have the ball in the opposition's penalty area? Not a claim that we are great, but maybe a try to balance the debate a bit?
If people enjoy the way we are playing at the moment they must have something wrong with them.
The pass pass pass then back back back is so dull.
Quote from: Sting of the North on February 24, 2020, 10:36:42 PM
Wasn't the fourth most touches thing in direct response to the claim that we never have the ball in the opposition's penalty area? Not a claim that we are great, but maybe a try to balance the debate a bit?
There is nothing wrong with Parker's tactics unless you think we have players capable of more. Statistically, as England manager Sven-Goran Ericisson (three quarters) has marginally better statistics than Gareth Southgate (one semi), but most would consider the former a under-performer and the later an over-performer. One could say SGE didn't have the players to do better, but i consider the 2006 team much better than 2018
In 18/19, we got a bunch of players that were good over Europe and through them in the Premier League that didn't perform as a unit with recruitment and coaching getting the blame, most people assumed the recruitment of top Ligue players was the problem and not the coaching. I was one of a minority that believed it was coaching, and mostly Slavisa needed more than one season to make the new players into a great team.
In 19/20, we recruited players that torn apart the championship for other teams. We could still blame recruitment and/or coaching, but apart from the extremist most people have started to realise that this bunch of players are too good for being the 4th-6th best attacking team in the division.
Blaming recruitment has been masking over problems for the past few seasons. We didn't get great value for £100m of recruitment, but we started with a team killing the championship. No doubt recruitment has been a little below average, but with the players we have a decent coaching staff would have been in a relegation battle until the season end last season and be in an automatic promotion spot this season.
Both seasons we have dropped half the points available against relegation teams and more than half the points against promoted teams. Our DOF spent a lot of money and probably didn't get great value for money, but coaches didn't get all the value out of those players. Any coach should be able to beat Charlton and Barnsley with the players we have.
Agree with most of this. I watched the wellington Phoenix ( ALeague) game recently-in possession from the back with forward players running off the ball to give defenders choices. Great to watch and high skill level. I wonder how many times Odoi moved up the right in space, stopped and passed sideways/back. No one was making diagonal runs in front of him wanting the ball. Turgid is a perfect description of this performance.
There's a lot wrong with Parker's tactics if you're someone who has to stand, freezing their nuts off whilst watching it, hoping to avoid falling asleep. Probably easier to stomach from home. I could pardon it if it was beyond doubt successful (thinking Mourinho at Inter/ 1-0 to the Arsenal etc), but I don't even think it is that.
I would say that recruitment has been as good as Tony and his team have managed since he's had control, excusing the delayed signing of Hector as the main aberration. For once I do feel like the manager has been given the best tools, or as close as is reasonably possible to, to achieve success. I don't consider playoffs success this year due to the position we are in with parachute payments and the time urgency surrounding that opportunity.
There feels to be a feel of the inevitable about games, and I find myself more surprised when we do grind out a win from it than anything else. Many have said Bracewell and it does take me back to that 0-0 style. I said very early in the season that I just don't look forward to games anymore and got hounded - I now hear many others saying the same. I'm not sure that it is beyond repair, but I also don't see that Scott wants to play any differently; he's been Mourinho-esque since he was trying to secure the job and now he has it, the style hasn't evolved despite the team being much more well equipped.
Quote from: Sting of the North on February 24, 2020, 10:36:42 PM
Wasn't the fourth most touches thing in direct response to the claim that we never have the ball in the opposition's penalty area? Not a claim that we are great, but maybe a try to balance the debate a bit?
Maybe so, but it's still not meaningful relative to our expectations. It's like someone complaining our defence isn't good enough for automatic promotion, and another person arguing back that it's actually the 5th best in the division.
Quote from: Statto on February 25, 2020, 09:28:14 AM
Quote from: Sting of the North on February 24, 2020, 10:36:42 PM
Wasn't the fourth most touches thing in direct response to the claim that we never have the ball in the opposition's penalty area? Not a claim that we are great, but maybe a try to balance the debate a bit?
Maybe so, but it's still not meaningful relative to our expectations. It's like someone complaining our defence isn't good enough for automatic promotion, and another person arguing back that it's actually the 5th best in the division.
Maybe this team is not that strong, but we have five players Knockaert, Cairney, Reid, Cav and Mitro that should be challenging for a place in this years "PFA Championship Team of the Year", plus there backups Kamara, Onamah, Stefjo and Kebano should be pretty good too. We should be scoring 2 goals per game, if we conceed a lot I can accept it but we have the players to score more. Parker has failed in attack.
Quote from: Statto on February 25, 2020, 09:28:14 AM
Quote from: Sting of the North on February 24, 2020, 10:36:42 PM
Wasn't the fourth most touches thing in direct response to the claim that we never have the ball in the opposition's penalty area? Not a claim that we are great, but maybe a try to balance the debate a bit?
Maybe so, but it's still not meaningful relative to our expectations. It's like someone complaining our defence isn't good enough for automatic promotion, and another person arguing back that it's actually the 5th best in the division.
As Sting said, i was responding to a specific point about the ball "never being in the opposition penalty area" which the stat shows is clearly incorrect. There were other inaccuracies that I countered too. Not trying to be clever or say that we're playing exceptionally, just trying to show a bit of reason against things that soon become gospel and another reason to change manager.
Quote from: Jim© on February 24, 2020, 04:51:08 PM
Mitro has had the most shots of any player in the division this season. He has a goals per shot of 0.17, TC for instance has had a lot less shots, but a goals per shot of 0.20. Ollie Watkins a lot less shots but a conversion of 0.3 goals per shot (the highest in division).
As Johan Cruyff once said 'my talents and techniques couldn't be detected by computers or statistics' ... or as Douglas Adams put it "The complexities of cause and effect defy analysis."
Quote from: toshes mate on February 25, 2020, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: Jim© on February 24, 2020, 04:51:08 PM
Mitro has had the most shots of any player in the division this season. He has a goals per shot of 0.17, TC for instance has had a lot less shots, but a goals per shot of 0.20. Ollie Watkins a lot less shots but a conversion of 0.3 goals per shot (the highest in division).
As Johan Cruyff once said 'my talents and techniques couldn't be detected by computers or statistics' ... or as Douglas Adams put it "The complexities of cause and effect defy analysis."
I'm not sure there's anything there that we don't see with the naked eye; that he has a lot of shots (perhaps dispelling the idea he gets no chances) and that he's not quite as accurate as he could be (though I'd never complain with the numbers of goals he scores).
His favourite quote of mine was something like "i dont believe in god. in spain every player does the sign of the cross when they go on to the pitch. If there was a god, and 22 players did this, every game would end in a draw".
I've tried to be patient with our football this season. Indeed I have nothing against a possession based game if it is constructive possession. But after getting soaked attending the Barnsley game and then sitting through 90 mins watching the Derby game on Sky I'm where MJG is.
We are 3rd and still (theoretically) in with a shout of automatic promotion but I can't raise a shred of excitement. Our football has become more and more conservative. We never see the TC of old anymore. Top players like Knock, Cav etc. disappoint week in, week out. The atmosphere on the terraces in as muted as the mood seems to be amongst the players.
I would love Parker to take off the shackles and give this team licence to play quicker, more adventurous football but I know now that he just won't. Early on I thought; ok, he has to solidify our porous defence so fair enough. To be fair our defense is a bit less leaky but at what a cost!
That's it for me, I'll trudge along to home games for the rest of the season out of a sense of duty but with no anticipation of enjoyment. If Parker is still there next season then no season ticket for me, thank you very much.
Quote from: Jim© on February 25, 2020, 10:59:42 AM
Quote from: toshes mate on February 25, 2020, 10:07:28 AM
Quote from: Jim© on February 24, 2020, 04:51:08 PM
Mitro has had the most shots of any player in the division this season. He has a goals per shot of 0.17, TC for instance has had a lot less shots, but a goals per shot of 0.20. Ollie Watkins a lot less shots but a conversion of 0.3 goals per shot (the highest in division).
As Johan Cruyff once said 'my talents and techniques couldn't be detected by computers or statistics' ... or as Douglas Adams put it "The complexities of cause and effect defy analysis."
I'm not sure there's anything there that we don't see with the naked eye; that he has a lot of shots (perhaps dispelling the idea he gets no chances) and that he's not quite as accurate as he could be (though I'd never complain with the numbers of goals he scores).
His favourite quote of mine was something like "i dont believe in god. in spain every player does the sign of the cross when they go on to the pitch. If there was a god, and 22 players did this, every game would end in a draw".
Our eyes are normally pretty good except when they are pretty bad but our brains and memory tend to scrambled by emotional context rather than through reasoning. I don't listen to commentary when watching games simply because I trust my brain to assimilate situations better although I tend to deteriorate rapidly when bad decisions are made by officials that, IMO, spoil games. That is why I love to watch the full ninety minutes over again (without commentary) and see whether I react the same way to incidents as I did the first time. If the emotion is the same as it was 'live' then I judge it as a game changing moment. My problem with Parker is that I often get frustrated simply looking at the team sheet and thinking 'Oh no, not again'. It has been a common feature with managers and coaches in the Khan era the only exceptions being Jokanovic and, strangely enough, Symons.
My 'most apposite to Parker' Cruyff quote is 'Quality without results is pointless. Result without quality is boring.'
Quote from: Jim© on February 25, 2020, 09:59:53 AM
Quote from: Statto on February 25, 2020, 09:28:14 AM
Quote from: Sting of the North on February 24, 2020, 10:36:42 PM
Wasn't the fourth most touches thing in direct response to the claim that we never have the ball in the opposition's penalty area? Not a claim that we are great, but maybe a try to balance the debate a bit?
Maybe so, but it's still not meaningful relative to our expectations. It's like someone complaining our defence isn't good enough for automatic promotion, and another person arguing back that it's actually the 5th best in the division.
As Sting said, i was responding to a specific point about the ball "never being in the opposition penalty area" which the stat shows is clearly incorrect. There were other inaccuracies that I countered too. Not trying to be clever or say that we're playing exceptionally, just trying to show a bit of reason against things that soon become gospel and another reason to change manager.
If you interpreted the original comment literally, ie that it absolutely "never" happens, then I agree, your stat shows it was incorrect. I interpreted as meaning something along the lines of we don't have the ball in the opposition penalty area as much as we should if we're expecting to compete for the automatic positions.
I don't think anyone interpreted it literally. It is however fair to assume that it was originally meant to indicate that we are poor at getting to the oppositions penalty area. Which we are seemingly not, although we could be better. It should not be needed to be top 2 on all 'positive' stats in order to compete for promotion.
With that said, I don't think the stat of how much a team touches the ball in the oppositions penalty area is necessarily indicative of how many quality chances are created, which should be more important.
Quote from: Jim© on February 24, 2020, 02:58:48 PM
Quote from: Luka on February 23, 2020, 04:24:06 PM
Parker is single handedly destroying all that is dear to so many who support this club.
In an age of over reactions I think that the above beats the lot.
If that was all I said then I would agree but you only cut and pasted my opening sentence.
Attending a game under the lights by the river was always and should always be an experience and one that is held dear to those that do it regularly. However some on here have suggested they have lost interest and now question attending or even watching on tv while we play Parker's brand of football.
So my comment was.......
"Parker is single handedly destroying all that is dear to so many who support this club. For so many hardened life long Fulham fans to feel this ambivalent about watching, never mind actually going to a game is very sad"
Maybe I should have said much that is dear rather than all.
I totally agree with Twig and MJG - I am in the same place . The only thing I don't agree with Twig is that unfortunately I will still renew my season ticket next year - as without live football and FFC then life would be rather dull . Yes - even boring football is better than none . Football and supporting a team is about hope and each season I just hope that it might be better than the last ..... unlikely but still true
Quote from: HV71 on February 25, 2020, 09:42:43 PM
I totally agree with Twig and MJG - I am in the same place . The only thing I don't agree with Twig is that unfortunately I will still renew my season ticket next year - as without live football and FFC then life would be rather dull . Yes - even boring football is better than none . Football and supporting a team is about hope and each season I just hope that it might be better than the last ..... unlikely but still true
You're probably being more realistic than me. I expect I'll prevaricate and eventually give in and renew. Goodness only knows why though, sucker for punishment I suppose.
It's the life of a supporter Twig - there is little ,if any , rational thinking - it is truly about"hope" - small word - massive implications. It just gets to us all .
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on February 24, 2020, 03:20:13 PM
The best high possession football doesn't come from retaining the ball in areas the other team can't be damaged, it comes from pressing and winning the ball back so high and fast that the other team cannot manage to have any possession themselves.
I agree with this 100%. I really don't see the value in time of possession, especially with the way Fulham plays. They could have possession for 70% of the game, but if half of their possession time is spent passing the ball back in forth in front of their own goal, all while being under heavy pressure. That's not just boring - it's dangerous.
On the topic of boring play, I understand the results vs. style argument. However, at the beginning of the year, most pundits thought Fulham would have the most dangerous attack in the league. In basketball, the less talented team tries to slow down the pace of play, in the hope that a slow, ugly game will be to their benefit. In other words, they play possession ball just like Fulham does. I'm guessing that in four out of five games, Fulham has the more talented team on the field, yet they slow down the game and, in my admittedly novice opinion, let much less talented teams stick around and turn the game into a rock fight. If Fulham played to their strengths and talent level, instead of playing down to the level of their opponents, they would probably at least be where they are now in the table, and more likely they would be a good deal further ahead.
What we're seeing is possession for possession sake. As many have pointed out, possession is good so long as there's purpose, movement and intensity in our play. I'm literally seeing none of these things on a weekly basis. We're 3rd in league due to the quality on our books as opposed to any tactical nous coming from the dugout. I often wonder what it is we're trying to do amongst all the sideways passing. Parker is woefully underperforming with the best assortment of attacking players in the league. Moreover, the football is turgid, insipid and plain dull.
Parker has barely ever trained in a team that he is not playing with. Parker's tactics are missing a player like him in the middle of the Park and it isn't going to work with the central midfielders we have. Beginner Mistake
