So FRUSTRATING!!
We have the best striker in the league & we have a left footer on the right side & a right footer on the left side.
All game they cut inside & either shoot / pass inside (again) or run it out of play trying to force a cross with their weak foot..
Abou comes on, gets it out of his feet whis a cross in & GOAL!!
Why o why doesn't SP swap the wingers over ! Get to that by line & whip it across goal!
theres a reason why Joe Bryan gets a lot of assists!
OH & Make the bloody substitutions earlier!!!!!
All makes sense to me!
Agreed - what happened to switching wings about during the game - rarely / never seems to happen with Knock and Cav.
I thought they swopped a couple of times last night - am I wrong?
It would be nice!
Whether you get to the by line and cross it or drive in on goal it frightens defences and pulls them out of their defensive positions.
Its always been the case in football that this tactic gets results yet we seem to ignore it over and over again.
Quote from: Dodger53 on February 27, 2020, 08:58:08 AM
I thought they swopped a couple of times last night - am I wrong?
No, you are right.
Been saying this since October
https://www.friendsoffulham.com/forum/index.php?topic=73101.msg1091794#msg1091794
Knockhart played the same side for Brighton, as did Cav for Wolves. They are used to playing that way. We do need Denis and Bryan to overlap more though which I think is the bigger issue.
As for Subs, I think he got that right yesterday, we were very dominant and there appeared no need to change it until he did.
Quote from: snarks on February 27, 2020, 12:49:53 PM
Knockhart played the same side for Brighton, as did Cav for Wolves. They are used to playing that way. We do need Denis and Bryan to overlap more though which I think is the bigger issue.
As for Subs, I think he got that right yesterday, we were very dominant and there appeared no need to change it until he did.
This is it right there. It is hard work to have inverted wingers without overlapping fullbacks. It's not about just getting to the endline. Slav's tactics weren't built on getting the wingers down the endline either, it was built to get the fullbacks to overlap and they are the ones who get to the endline. Last night, Odoi overlapped much more than he had the last two matches. This opens up not only the pass to overlap, but opens up the inside move for the winger to take a strike. Knockaert got an early shot on target that was well saved this way, and Cav got a shot off, that was deflected and barely made it over the bar.
Quote from: snarks on February 27, 2020, 12:49:53 PM
Knockhart played the same side for Brighton, as did Cav for Wolves. They are used to playing that way.
Cavaliero played predominantly on the right in Wolves' promotion season and was most successful their.
Quote from: Statto on February 27, 2020, 02:18:49 PM
Quote from: snarks on February 27, 2020, 12:49:53 PM
Knockhart played the same side for Brighton, as did Cav for Wolves. They are used to playing that way.
Cavaliero played predominantly on the right in Wolves' promotion season and was most successful their.
I thought Costa was on the right more.
I do know they swapped around but in any event, Cav has played that way a lot
Agree we should try swopping the wingers (or at least give them licence to swop during the game).
Not so sure about the criticism of the substitutions as we were so dominant. Although having said that AK undeniable made a big difference. Perhaps he should start against PNE?
Quote from: Buzz_28 on February 27, 2020, 08:34:26 AM
So FRUSTRATING!!
We have the best striker in the league & we have a left footer on the right side & a right footer on the left side.
All game they cut inside & either shoot / pass inside (again) or run it out of play trying to force a cross with their weak foot..
Abou comes on, gets it out of his feet whis a cross in & GOAL!!
Why o why doesn't SP swap the wingers over ! Get to that by line & whip it across goal!
theres a reason why Joe Bryan gets a lot of assists!
OH & Make the bloody substitutions earlier!!!!!
So right Buzz, I have been banging this drum for many months.
You make a good point about Bryan.
I feel that it we had traditional wide men, not just Mitro but Reid in the 10 role would benefit.
SP just doesn't seem to see it and repeats the mistake week after week.
Certainly agree subbing much earlier. Thought way too late v Swans and nearly cost us.
100% Agree! Inverted wingers makes us too narrow and inhibits our attacking play.
Worked for Sess, a left footer on the left who can get into space and put crosses in. I am sure Knockhaert would be far more effective on the left side.
Quote from: snarks on February 27, 2020, 12:49:53 PM
Knockhart played the same side for Brighton, as did Cav for Wolves. They are used to playing that way. We do need Denis and Bryan to overlap more though which I think is the bigger issue.
As for Subs, I think he got that right yesterday, we were very dominant and there appeared no need to change it until he did.
Definitely agree with this- when Bryan gets forward, we get dangerous crosses in. When he doesn't, the winger cuts inside and you have a less dangerous ball from a less dangerous angle. Mitro is great at attacking crosses from by line as it comes onto him. Balls whipped in diagonally after a winger has cut in always seem to be moving too quick for him to latch onto. It's physics (i think)!
By way of compromise, could we go with one normal wideman and one inverted.
(So long as Knocky is not the inverted one!)
Quote from: Jims Dentist on February 28, 2020, 06:01:57 PM
By way of compromise, could we go with one normal wideman and one inverted.
(So long as Knocky is not the inverted one!)
But Knockaert is the only one who has at least been successful elsewhere as an inverted winger.
Inverted wingers are very common. If we don't use inverted wingers, we will become one-dimensional as it removes the inside move. Both Cav and Knock have scored goals from the inside move to their stronger foot. With that said, Cav has also socred with his weaker left foot from the right hand side. The key is we get our fullbacks to overlap to continue to open the other passing lanes and swap wings mid-match to keep defenders on their toes.
Also, Kamara didn't get his crosses in by running to the by-line. His crosses were closer to the top of the box and wasn't a result of beating the outside defender for pace. Bryan's crosses are also usually from not beating anyone to the by-line, but sending in crosses in earlier positions.
Lastly, I think Knockaert needs to stop crossing, and taking corners, overall. It's too hit or miss with him and most of the time his crosses are too high and float to the keeper.
Quote from: Matt10 on February 28, 2020, 06:48:00 PM
Inverted wingers are very common. If we don't use inverted wingers, we will become one-dimensional as it removes the inside move.
That cuts both ways though. Playing old fashioned wingers doesn't remove the inside move any more than playing inverted wingers removes the outside move.
Its an old concept, left back is left footed, right back is right footed so by cutting inside the defender is on his weaker foot making a tackle more difficult.
Today this is negated by the modern method of winning the ball, which is to simply bundle into the opponent
with the whole of your body knocking the attacker off the ball. Refs seem to be quite happy with this method.
The winger also comes inside onto his 'natural' foot so that he can get a shot away.
With full backs attacking up the wings, staying wide, on the side of their natural foot, we have a variety of options.
Damien Duff used to play an inverted role effectively for us didn't he?
Quote from: Statto on February 28, 2020, 06:51:20 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on February 28, 2020, 06:48:00 PM
Inverted wingers are very common. If we don't use inverted wingers, we will become one-dimensional as it removes the inside move.
That cuts both ways though. Playing old fashioned wingers doesn't remove the inside move any more than playing inverted wingers removes the outside move.
Yes, that's true.
I guess from a defensive perspective, and in my personal experience, it's much easier to defend a traditional winger than it is an inverted winger. If Knock is set up traditionally on the left, I know I can give him the inside more than the outside because the chances of him cutting onto his right and shooting with his right are much less than him cutting outside. In addition, I can prepare to challenge the passing lane to the fullback with more momentum.
The inverted winger is tricky because if Knock is coming at me, I have to stay tighter to the inside, giving up more space and timing to cut off the angle to the fullback. The main tactical response, which is one we've seen ever since Cav scored versus Hudds away, is teams drop their defensive midfielder lower and inside so it doesn't become a one-on-one situation with the outside fullback.
Personally, I prefer speed of play, especially in the defensive third, and an inverted winger can be a bit slower than a traditional winger because a straight line is faster than cutting back inside. Not to mention, the fullback's overlapping momentum can be properly used, and so can the timing of the runs into the box.
The hard fact is that Knock and Cave have not got the pace needed to go around and neither has the full back on the outside and none of our right backs has the pace of Fredericks.
The best chance of us making the byeline is with Kamara, he should get more game time.
Start with Cav & Knock but give them licence to swap flank to mix up the inverted & traditional wing play. Keeps the defenders on their toes. I'd also have Reid switching wide from his central position, switching with Cav & Knock in a more fluid attacking formation behind and in advance of a central Mitro.
IMO, Kamara and Kebano are best as impact subs off the bench. I would however be looking to introduce them earlier than 10 or less minutes to play.
Quote from: filham on February 28, 2020, 09:49:02 PM
The hard fact is that Knock and Cave have not got the pace needed to go around and neither has the full back on the outside and none of our right backs has the pace of Fredericks.
The best chance of us making the byeline is with Kamara, he should get more game time.
Not sure about that. I doubt there are many wingers quicker over 60 yards than Knock in the Championship?
The reason for inverted wingers is that when possesion is lost the winger is infield and can help defend any break away. However, if there are 2 good overlapping full backs it (usually) works well.
I do agree with other comments, they should switch it around a bit. Even decent park team do that.
The main point to this thread which seems to have been missed is the inverted wingers aren't doing anything of late so try something different to try and make us look like we will threaten the goal
Quote from: FFC73 on February 28, 2020, 10:04:21 PM
Start with Cav & Knock but give them licence to swap flank to mix up the inverted & traditional wing play. Keeps the defenders on their toes. I'd also have Reid switching wide from his central position, switching with Cav & Knock in a more fluid attacking formation behind and in advance of a central Mitro.
IMO, Kamara and Kebano are best as impact subs off the bench. I would however be looking to introduce them earlier than 10 or less minutes to play.
Totally agree. If we two can see this why can't Parker.
Quote from: jarv on February 29, 2020, 11:59:52 AM
The reason for inverted wingers is that when possesion is lost the winger is infield and can help defend any break away.
Ours seem to have the opposite effect. When we're not in possession, they're out wide, so are of minimal use defending any break away by the opposition. It's when (and only when) they're in possession that they cut inside, helping the opposition to defend our own break.
Quote from: Dodger53 on February 27, 2020, 08:58:08 AM
I thought they swopped a couple of times last night - am I wrong?
You are not wrong, it happens more than we think
