https://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2020/june/19/tony-khan-speaks-to-ffctv
I'm sure he's a nice guy, but he seems slightly dettached in his approach to the club and generally comes across unfiltered professionally, lacking structure.. all seems very passive, secondary and rambling... its a shame... club really deserves someone who gives more focus to the club. kinda seems like he's missing the point.
talks about
- Bringing Javi back..? I assume a coach who coached under
and more... slightly meh by his general demeanour.
I disagree. The guy cares a lot about Fulham.
Getting Javier Pereira was a huge move and Javi is focused on player recruitment amongst other things.
I like him
Quote from: General on June 19, 2020, 03:44:08 PM
https://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2020/june/19/tony-khan-speaks-to-ffctv
I'm sure he's a nice guy, but he seems slightly dettached in his approach to the club and generally comes across unfiltered professionally, lacking structure.. all seems very passive, secondary and rambling... its a shame... club really deserves someone who gives more focus to the club. kinda seems like he's missing the point.
talks about
- Bringing Javi back..? I assume a coach who coached under
and more... slightly meh by his general demeanour.
I think you're being a bit harsh. He does seem to carry in his head a huge amount of pretty detailed information about Fulham. If he were that detached, to use your word, would he really do that? And Javi is indeed Javier Pereira, who assisted Slav. See https://www.fulhamfc.com/news/2020/january/29/Pereira-Joins
He was big enough to be very self critical about his additions for the Premier League and said he had learned the lessons and was very grateful to still be in the job. He has masses of enthusiasm and seems to be close to the other members of staff and players. Most importantly he is extremely well supported by his Dads money and recruited well last time out. He has bought in a proper football man, who knows Fulham and has him very much prompting the football recruitment decisions which is yet another step in the right direction. The interview seemed very unscripted and off the cuff and I like that.
In Tony Khan we could do a hell of a lot worse and for most of our history our ownership and executive management have been truly appalling, with Tony so committed to Fulham and with Shahid continuing to invest multi millions we are very lucky indeed.
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 19, 2020, 05:00:03 PM
He was big enough to be very self critical about his additions for the Premier League and said he had learned the lessons and was very grateful to still be in the job. He has masses of enthusiasm and seems to be close to the other members of staff and players. Most importantly he is extremely well supported by his Dads money and recruited well last time out. He has bought in a proper football man, who knows Fulham and has him very much prompting the football recruitment decisions which is yet mother step in the right direction. The interview seemed very unscripted and off the cuff and I like that.
In Tony Khan we could do a hell of a lot worse and for most of our history our ownership and executive management have been truly appalling, with Tony so committed to Fulham and with Shahid continuing to invest multi millions we are very lucky indeed.
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I'm not a big Tony guy but I do think his passion is visible, I just don't think he has a great 'football brain' despite being clearly quite intelligent.
I admire his ability to stick his hand up on mistakes in this recent interview and I think he nearly all-but admitted that Javier Pereira is going to be vital in adding input on how to best work the Fulham way of playing, what type of players fit where and how it can be better. Javi joined right at the end of January so we won't notice anything different in the transfer market until the summer but I recall he'll also have a part to play in instilling the philosophy throughout the club from the kids up.
Tony never really says what his footballing ideas are. There's many variations of a 433 and there's many variations of possession football (I'd say Scott's is quite different to Slav's stylistically).
My prime gripe at the moment is, how many football clubs have their Director of Football work part time? It really is a 24/7, 365 type job and there's no way he can offer that to Fulham what with his roles with the Jaguars and All Elite Wrestling. Maybe that's where Pereira shines in, a similar mould to the old school 'manager' that leaves the training to his backroom staff whilst he works on man management and the transfers.
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 19, 2020, 05:00:03 PM
He was big enough to be very self critical about his additions for the Premier League and said he had learned the lessons and was very grateful to still be in the job. He has masses of enthusiasm and seems to be close to the other members of staff and players. Most importantly he is extremely well supported by his Dads money and recruited well last time out. He has bought in a proper football man, who knows Fulham and has him very much prompting the football recruitment decisions which is yet another step in the right direction. The interview seemed very unscripted and off the cuff and I like that.
In Tony Khan we could do a hell of a lot worse and for most of our history our ownership and executive management have been truly appalling, with Tony so committed to Fulham and with Shahid continuing to invest multi millions we are very lucky indeed.
Agree
his passion is there for all to see and admirable.
his knolwedge of football is questinable and his analysis of the squad, its quality, and our recent form troubling.
When he talked about the squad when we went up and what happened it is like he doesn't realise he should have been sacked. but the truth is he remains totally inexperienced, part time, and this is a hobby, the prem is full of profesional sharks. if we go up.... if remains in charge of transfers we will sink again.
even this season we didn't start with a decent, fit center half we were relying on mawson, who lasted longer than i exected but was nowhere near good enough (due to injury) if our ambition was top two.
i wish I had the money of the khan's and was in charge, we would be top 6 in the prem because i would get proper profesionals to run the place.
I agree, his passion is amazing, he is truley one of us so to speak but if he wants what is best he would step aside.
Quote from: ALG01 on June 19, 2020, 11:33:34 PM
his passion is there for all to see and admirable.
his knolwedge of football is questinable and his analysis of the squad, its quality, and our recent form troubling.
When he talked about the squad when we went up and what happened it is like he doesn't realise he should have been sacked. but the truth is he remains totally inexperienced, part time, and this is a hobby, the prem is full of profesional sharks. if we go up.... if remains in charge of transfers we will sink again.
even this season we didn't start with a decent, fit center half we were relying on mawson, who lasted longer than i exected but was nowhere near good enough (due to injury) if our ambition was top two.
i wish I had the money of the khan's and was in charge, we would be top 6 in the prem because i would get proper profesionals to run the place.
I agree, his passion is amazing, he is truley one of us so to speak but if he wants what is best he would step aside.
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on June 19, 2020, 11:33:34 PM
his passion is there for all to see and admirable.
his knolwedge of football is questinable and his analysis of the squad, its quality, and our recent form troubling.
When he talked about the squad when we went up and what happened it is like he doesn't realise he should have been sacked. but the truth is he remains totally inexperienced, part time, and this is a hobby, the prem is full of profesional sharks. if we go up.... if remains in charge of transfers we will sink again.
even this season we didn't start with a decent, fit center half we were relying on mawson, who lasted longer than i exected but was nowhere near good enough (due to injury) if our ambition was top two.
i wish I had the money of the khan's and was in charge, we would be top 6 in the prem because i would get proper profesionals to run the place.
I agree, his passion is amazing, he is truley one of us so to speak but if he wants what is best he would step aside.
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
maybe, we will have to see what happens when the close season actually occurs.
just as an aside, why do the americans not embrace the language of football. TK and the rest of america calls the squad a rosta, the close season, the off season etc. it's our gam in our country, they shouldn't they use our venacular. Ifthey watch english football they should know the language properly. offence rather than attack drives me crazy.
when we speak of the third rate sports we use their terms.
Quote from: ALG01 on June 20, 2020, 09:51:28 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on June 19, 2020, 11:33:34 PM
his passion is there for all to see and admirable.
his knolwedge of football is questinable and his analysis of the squad, its quality, and our recent form troubling.
When he talked about the squad when we went up and what happened it is like he doesn't realise he should have been sacked. but the truth is he remains totally inexperienced, part time, and this is a hobby, the prem is full of profesional sharks. if we go up.... if remains in charge of transfers we will sink again.
even this season we didn't start with a decent, fit center half we were relying on mawson, who lasted longer than i exected but was nowhere near good enough (due to injury) if our ambition was top two.
i wish I had the money of the khan's and was in charge, we would be top 6 in the prem because i would get proper profesionals to run the place.
I agree, his passion is amazing, he is truley one of us so to speak but if he wants what is best he would step aside.
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
maybe, we will have to see what happens when the close season actually occurs.
just as an aside, why do the americans not embrace the language of football. TK and the rest of america calls the squad a rosta, the close season, the off season etc. it's our gam in our country, they shouldn't they use our venacular. Ifthey watch english football they should know the language properly. offence rather than attack drives me crazy.
when we speak of the third rate sports we use their terms.
I agree ALGOI which signifies how little they actually know or want to learn about English football.
I posted around Oct/Nov that I thought TK had or might take a step back of sideways.
This was based on the potential better quality summer signings and him having to spread his duties between us The Jags and the new Alite wrestling venture (which FPT as always astutely mentions above).
Pereira coming in as his so called number 2 seems to suggest this.
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 23, 2020, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
If that were to be the case, I would imagine fans will turn on Shahid instead...
And although I've been complimentary to both Tony and Shahid for a while now, I could totally understand and support the backlash. Supporting your son with funds with near unlimited funds for some suspect buys over the years (this year excluded) but then stopping that when a professional is in his place is not only crazy, it would prove all the nepotism allegations and not go down well...
We don't want another Blackburn Venkys type situation on our hands and I'm sure they don't either...
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on June 20, 2020, 10:16:14 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on June 20, 2020, 09:51:28 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on June 19, 2020, 11:33:34 PM
his passion is there for all to see and admirable.
his knolwedge of football is questinable and his analysis of the squad, its quality, and our recent form troubling.
When he talked about the squad when we went up and what happened it is like he doesn't realise he should have been sacked. but the truth is he remains totally inexperienced, part time, and this is a hobby, the prem is full of profesional sharks. if we go up.... if remains in charge of transfers we will sink again.
even this season we didn't start with a decent, fit center half we were relying on mawson, who lasted longer than i exected but was nowhere near good enough (due to injury) if our ambition was top two.
i wish I had the money of the khan's and was in charge, we would be top 6 in the prem because i would get proper profesionals to run the place.
I agree, his passion is amazing, he is truley one of us so to speak but if he wants what is best he would step aside.
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
maybe, we will have to see what happens when the close season actually occurs.
just as an aside, why do the americans not embrace the language of football. TK and the rest of america calls the squad a rosta, the close season, the off season etc. it's our gam in our country, they shouldn't they use our venacular. Ifthey watch english football they should know the language properly. offence rather than attack drives me crazy.
when we speak of the third rate sports we use their terms.
I agree ALGOI which signifies how little they actually know or want to learn about English football.
You're complaining about our owners because they don't talk like you do?
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 23, 2020, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
I'd hesitate to infer from Pereira's appointment that TK has stepped back.
Firstly, because when we appointed Perreria I got the impression his role concerned tactics, coaching etc rather than recruitment (the announcement said "his primary focus will be on embedding the Club's playing philosophy through all Fulham's teams") and TK was never involved in that side of things anyway. It may just reflect the fact that Parker and Wells are a smaller, more junior coaching team than we've had had previously.
Secondly, as for the recruitment process, as far as I can tell there are actually less people around TK now than ever. When TK replaced Rigg as DoF, my understanding is that he was supported by K on the data side (who by all accounts was a dominant force in the process) and Talbot on the scouting side. K left and apparently they replaced him by promoting Lovell, but his title on LinkedIn is now "First Team Performance Analyst" which suggests he's gone back to his old role. So if anything, there seems to be a bit of a vacuum there to me.
Quote from: 70sPimlico on June 23, 2020, 09:55:37 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on June 20, 2020, 10:16:14 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on June 20, 2020, 09:51:28 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on June 19, 2020, 11:33:34 PM
his passion is there for all to see and admirable.
his knolwedge of football is questinable and his analysis of the squad, its quality, and our recent form troubling.
When he talked about the squad when we went up and what happened it is like he doesn't realise he should have been sacked. but the truth is he remains totally inexperienced, part time, and this is a hobby, the prem is full of profesional sharks. if we go up.... if remains in charge of transfers we will sink again.
even this season we didn't start with a decent, fit center half we were relying on mawson, who lasted longer than i exected but was nowhere near good enough (due to injury) if our ambition was top two.
i wish I had the money of the khan's and was in charge, we would be top 6 in the prem because i would get proper profesionals to run the place.
I agree, his passion is amazing, he is truley one of us so to speak but if he wants what is best he would step aside.
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
maybe, we will have to see what happens when the close season actually occurs.
just as an aside, why do the americans not embrace the language of football. TK and the rest of america calls the squad a rosta, the close season, the off season etc. it's our gam in our country, they shouldn't they use our venacular. Ifthey watch english football they should know the language properly. offence rather than attack drives me crazy.
when we speak of the third rate sports we use their terms.
I agree ALGOI which signifies how little they actually know or want to learn about English football.
You're complaining about our owners because they don't talk like you do?
+1
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 19, 2020, 05:00:03 PM
He was big enough to be very self critical about his additions for the Premier League and said he had learned the lessons and was very grateful to still be in the job. He has masses of enthusiasm and seems to be close to the other members of staff and players. Most importantly he is extremely well supported by his Dads money and recruited well last time out. He has bought in a proper football man, who knows Fulham and has him very much prompting the football recruitment decisions which is yet another step in the right direction. The interview seemed very unscripted and off the cuff and I like that.
In Tony Khan we could do a hell of a lot worse and for most of our history our ownership and executive management have been truly appalling, with Tony so committed to Fulham and with Shahid continuing to invest multi millions we are very lucky indeed.
:plus one:
Quote from: ALG01 on June 20, 2020, 09:51:28 AM
just as an aside, why do the americans not embrace the language of football. TK and the rest of america calls the squad a rosta, the close season, the off season etc. it's our gam in our country, they shouldn't they use our venacular. Ifthey watch english football they should know the language properly. offence rather than attack drives me crazy.
when we speak of the third rate sports we use their terms.
And here we go talking about the owners not speaking the language of football correctly.
You seriously want to have a tiff about the owner's language? At least he's not being phoney when he speaks. I have way more problem with his free use of the word "uhm" all of the time.
Quote from: 70sPimlico on June 23, 2020, 09:55:37 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on June 20, 2020, 10:16:14 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on June 20, 2020, 09:51:28 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on June 19, 2020, 11:33:34 PM
his passion is there for all to see and admirable.
his knolwedge of football is questinable and his analysis of the squad, its quality, and our recent form troubling.
When he talked about the squad when we went up and what happened it is like he doesn't realise he should have been sacked. but the truth is he remains totally inexperienced, part time, and this is a hobby, the prem is full of profesional sharks. if we go up.... if remains in charge of transfers we will sink again.
even this season we didn't start with a decent, fit center half we were relying on mawson, who lasted longer than i exected but was nowhere near good enough (due to injury) if our ambition was top two.
i wish I had the money of the khan's and was in charge, we would be top 6 in the prem because i would get proper profesionals to run the place.
I agree, his passion is amazing, he is truley one of us so to speak but if he wants what is best he would step aside.
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
maybe, we will have to see what happens when the close season actually occurs.
just as an aside, why do the americans not embrace the language of football. TK and the rest of america calls the squad a rosta, the close season, the off season etc. it's our gam in our country, they shouldn't they use our venacular. Ifthey watch english football they should know the language properly. offence rather than attack drives me crazy.
when we speak of the third rate sports we use their terms.
I agree ALGOI which signifies how little they actually know or want to learn about English football.
You're complaining about our owners because they don't talk like you do?
You obviously are struggling with what I said. I suggested it was a pity that americans do not use the same venacular as us with regard to our game. There is no need fot them to try and re-invent the language of football. If they had been really interested and watched British football for years they would be familiar with and use our terminology as a maytter of course, and respect us enough to stick with it. If I watched US sports I was use their language.... it was a an observation that has been on my mind for ages and if you care to intentioanlly misinterpret that is not my problem.
Quote from: ALG01 on June 23, 2020, 10:18:10 PM
Quote from: 70sPimlico on June 23, 2020, 09:55:37 AM
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on June 20, 2020, 10:16:14 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on June 20, 2020, 09:51:28 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on June 19, 2020, 11:33:34 PM
his passion is there for all to see and admirable.
his knolwedge of football is questinable and his analysis of the squad, its quality, and our recent form troubling.
When he talked about the squad when we went up and what happened it is like he doesn't realise he should have been sacked. but the truth is he remains totally inexperienced, part time, and this is a hobby, the prem is full of profesional sharks. if we go up.... if remains in charge of transfers we will sink again.
even this season we didn't start with a decent, fit center half we were relying on mawson, who lasted longer than i exected but was nowhere near good enough (due to injury) if our ambition was top two.
i wish I had the money of the khan's and was in charge, we would be top 6 in the prem because i would get proper profesionals to run the place.
I agree, his passion is amazing, he is truley one of us so to speak but if he wants what is best he would step aside.
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
maybe, we will have to see what happens when the close season actually occurs.
just as an aside, why do the americans not embrace the language of football. TK and the rest of america calls the squad a rosta, the close season, the off season etc. it's our gam in our country, they shouldn't they use our venacular. Ifthey watch english football they should know the language properly. offence rather than attack drives me crazy.
when we speak of the third rate sports we use their terms.
I agree ALGOI which signifies how little they actually know or want to learn about English football.
You're complaining about our owners because they don't talk like you do?
You obviously are struggling with what I said. I suggested it was a pity that americans do not use the same venacular as us with regard to our game. There is no need fot them to try and re-invent the language of football. If they had been really interested and watched British football for years they would be familiar with and use our terminology as a maytter of course, and respect us enough to stick with it. If I watched US sports I was use their language.... it was a an observation that has been on my mind for ages and if you care to intentioanlly misinterpret that is not my problem.
You're complaining about our owners because they don't talk like you do?
Quote from: AnOldBrownie on June 23, 2020, 09:04:44 PM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 19, 2020, 05:00:03 PM
He was big enough to be very self critical about his additions for the Premier League and said he had learned the lessons and was very grateful to still be in the job. He has masses of enthusiasm and seems to be close to the other members of staff and players. Most importantly he is extremely well supported by his Dads money and recruited well last time out. He has bought in a proper football man, who knows Fulham and has him very much prompting the football recruitment decisions which is yet another step in the right direction. The interview seemed very unscripted and off the cuff and I like that.
In Tony Khan we could do a hell of a lot worse and for most of our history our ownership and executive management have been truly appalling, with Tony so committed to Fulham and with Shahid continuing to invest multi millions we are very lucky indeed.
:plus one:
Quote from: ALG01 on June 20, 2020, 09:51:28 AM
just as an aside, why do the americans not embrace the language of football. TK and the rest of america calls the squad a rosta, the close season, the off season etc. it's our gam in our country, they shouldn't they use our venacular. Ifthey watch english football they should know the language properly. offence rather than attack drives me crazy.
when we speak of the third rate sports we use their terms.
And here we go talking about the owners not speaking the language of football correctly.
You seriously want to have a tiff about the owner's language? At least he's not being phoney when he speaks. I have way more problem with his free use of the word "uhm" all of the time.
as i responded in a similar manner to another poster
You obviously are struggling with what I said. I suggested it was a pity that americans do not use the same venacular as us with regard to our game. There is no need for them to try and re-invent the language of football. If they had been really interested and watched British football for years they would be familiar with and use our terminology as a maytter of course, and respect us enough to stick with it. If I watched US sports I was use their language.... it was a an observation that has been on my mind for ages and if you misinterpret that is not my problem, I said americans and because of the interview mentioned him as he was the last one I heard, it is like the many summarisers they have on US TV which I sometimes watch.
i accept he (TK) is passionate and his heart is in the right place my quarrel with him is he is unsuited to the post and if he was less aggogant, would simply step aside and let a proper profesional do his job. the language thing, as I said was an aside.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 23, 2020, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
If not the investment, but the selection of transfers has needed to be more careful/astute for some time.
Paying top dollar doesn't necessarily get you the best players.
Not just them, but see Brentford as an example.
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 26, 2020, 12:50:05 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 23, 2020, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
If not the investment, but the selection of transfers has needed to be more careful/astute for some time. Paying top dollar doesn't necessarily get you the best players. Not just them, but see Brentford as an example.
I'd prefer the DOF to spend the biggest budget to build the 2nd best squad, than the 10th biggest budget for the 5th best squad.
University research for NFL teams has proven when owners become less involved in the day to day running of the club, the owner investment decreases and the team slides. Spending a small amount money well is not as good at building a squad as spending a large amount of money poorly.
Be careful what you wish for. If you want the owners son to be less involved with the club, i'm sure it will end in tears.
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 26, 2020, 12:50:05 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 23, 2020, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
If not the investment, but the selection of transfers has needed to be more careful/astute for some time.
Paying top dollar doesn't necessarily get you the best players.
Not just them, but see Brentford as an example.
I'm reading 'Soccernomics' at the moment, and in there they say the money spent on transfers only correlates to something like 16% of league positions whereas the money spent on wages is something like 90%. An interesting idea, they admit that obviously if you double the wages of average players they don't think performance increases, more so higher pay attracts better quality, I think the example they used was Chelsea can afford to have Eden Hazard on a weekly basis, where they wouldn't be the case of Burnley.
It's an interesting book so far with some intriguing ideas. Initially published in 2009, it's since been updated in 2018 which is the copy I'm reading and they appear to be addressing questions of the original release.
Thought it seemed apt to just pop this in here.
What can anyone say about billionaires' children? Their futures always made easy, the path secure. Something for junior to play with, stay occupied, have a sense of purpose. Was his appointment earned? Did he have a stellar back/front office football background? Of course not. Did he, like his father, ever invent anything? Slave away at academics and then mix his knowledge base with a true entrepreneurial spirit, and through hard work, dedication, and probably several failures, become the Great Success? Or do these 'sons of' ever grasp that their sophistication for the job they are given by their fathers is lacking, that they need to be seen, not heard, and delegate discreet authority to those who are better equipped to carry out club responsibilities?
Likeability is all fine and good. But we all know it's not nearly enough.
I know, I know--we should say nothing about the elephant in the room because God knows as children of very rich go, he's not driving the club and team into a ditch. Well, if that's our standard for comparison, then let's just settle for staying top 6 in the Championship for years to come.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 26, 2020, 07:14:32 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 26, 2020, 12:50:05 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 23, 2020, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
If not the investment, but the selection of transfers has needed to be more careful/astute for some time. Paying top dollar doesn't necessarily get you the best players. Not just them, but see Brentford as an example.
I'd prefer the DOF to spend the biggest budget to build the 2nd best squad, than the 10th biggest budget for the 5th best squad.
University research for NFL teams has proven when owners become less involved in the day to day running of the club, the owner investment decreases and the team slides. Spending a small amount money well is not as good at building a squad as spending a large amount of money poorly.
Be careful what you wish for. If you want the owners son to be less involved with the club, i'm sure it will end in tears.
I do not know much about The NFL, is there any form of FFP involved.
I know there is in The Championship.
So if we continue to spend as you call it "the biggest budget" we will likely find ourselves being hit with a transfer embargo or a serious points deduction.
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 28, 2020, 11:49:45 PM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 26, 2020, 07:14:32 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 26, 2020, 12:50:05 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 23, 2020, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
If not the investment, but the selection of transfers has needed to be more careful/astute for some time. Paying top dollar doesn't necessarily get you the best players. Not just them, but see Brentford as an example.
I'd prefer the DOF to spend the biggest budget to build the 2nd best squad, than the 10th biggest budget for the 5th best squad.
University research for NFL teams has proven when owners become less involved in the day to day running of the club, the owner investment decreases and the team slides. Spending a small amount money well is not as good at building a squad as spending a large amount of money poorly.
Be careful what you wish for. If you want the owners son to be less involved with the club, i'm sure it will end in tears.
I do not know much about The NFL, is there any form of FFP involved. I know there is in The Championship. So if we continue to spend as you call it "the biggest budget" we will likely find ourselves being hit with a transfer embargo or a serious points deduction.
I am convinced the findings for football would be identical to the university research for NFL. In NFL, a professional knowledgeable DOF doesn't make much difference long-term if the owner knows nothing about football. Every DOF is out to impress their boss (the owner) more than get good results, so if your boss is "The Glazers" or "The Galácticos" then your DOF will be buying overpriced players like Paul Pogba, David Beckham and Michael Owen.
We are very lucky to have Shahid Khan as our owner as he has the two most important things in an owner i) lots of money that he is willing to spend and ii) wanting trophies more than profit; unfortunately he also know less about football than any other owner in the EFL. Fortunately, we also have his son who while not incredibly knowledgeable (he is below average) is more knowledgeable than many American owners and seems to be gaining knowledge quickly. Hence, combined Shahid Khan and Tony Khan are much stronger combination than one of them only. Tony Khan leabing would be a disaster on a scale that I doubt anyone can fathom, especially as he is the future owner anyway.
I know all ex-football players don't want guys like TK taking the jobs that they traditionally do after hanging up there boots, but as the Khans implied when they bought this club "ex-football players running clubs on gut instincts always loss money" and they hope they can find a new way of running a club that is successful using "scientific management". Shahid Khan got rich by using "scientific six sigma management" in "bumper bars manufacture" when many thought that was silly.
The Khan's realized that initially, such an approach would lose more money as it takes time, money, and mistakes to "bankroll scientific football investment", but once the right approach is found a club could be far more successful than under the old ex-footballers gut instinct approach (like Sunderland and Newcastle use to use).
I really don't know if the new scientific approach will work, but I do hope the Khan's keep investing in it and while so many here hope (especially ex-footballers) that he goes back to "bankrolling ex-football players trusting their gut instincts" the indirect evidence I can see is SK believes that "if he follows that approach he will be less successful that MAF with the same investment".
While ex-players want the new investment model to fail as it doesn't involve them as DOF, Fulham Fans need to hope that it works as Shahid Khan thinks the new approach will work, if the Khan's investment idea is stupid and doesn't work, I'm not sure he will go back to MAF or Ellis Short models. In fact even if Shahid Khan's investment model is stupid, as a Fulham Fan it is best he just keeps pouring money more an more money into it for as long as possible.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 01:18:56 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 28, 2020, 11:49:45 PM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 26, 2020, 07:14:32 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 26, 2020, 12:50:05 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 23, 2020, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
If not the investment, but the selection of transfers has needed to be more careful/astute for some time. Paying top dollar doesn't necessarily get you the best players. Not just them, but see Brentford as an example.
I'd prefer the DOF to spend the biggest budget to build the 2nd best squad, than the 10th biggest budget for the 5th best squad.
University research for NFL teams has proven when owners become less involved in the day to day running of the club, the owner investment decreases and the team slides. Spending a small amount money well is not as good at building a squad as spending a large amount of money poorly.
Be careful what you wish for. If you want the owners son to be less involved with the club, i'm sure it will end in tears.
I do not know much about The NFL, is there any form of FFP involved. I know there is in The Championship. So if we continue to spend as you call it "the biggest budget" we will likely find ourselves being hit with a transfer embargo or a serious points deduction.
I am convinced the findings for football would be identical to the university research for NFL. In NFL, a professional knowledgeable DOF doesn't make much difference long-term if the owner knows nothing about football. Every DOF is out to impress their boss (the owner) more than get good results, so if your boss is "The Glazers" or "The Galácticos" then your DOF will be buying overpriced players like Paul Pogba, David Beckham and Michael Owen.
We are very lucky to have Shahid Khan as our owner as he has the two most important things in an owner i) lots of money that he is willing to spend and ii) wanting trophies more than profit; unfortunately he also know less about football than any other owner in the EFL. Fortunately, we also have his son who while not incredibly knowledgeable (he is below average) is more knowledgeable than many American owners and seems to be gaining knowledge quickly. Hence, combined Shahid Khan and Tony Khan are much stronger combination than one of them only. Tony Khan leabing would be a disaster on a scale that I doubt anyone can fathom, especially as he is the future owner anyway.
I know all ex-football players don't want guys like TK taking the jobs that they traditionally do after hanging up there boots, but as the Khans implied when they bought this club "ex-football players running clubs on gut instincts always loss money" and they hope they can find a new way of running a club that is successful using "scientific management". Shahid Khan got rich by using "scientific six sigma management" in "bumper bars manufacture" when many thought that was silly.
The Khan's realized that initially, such an approach would lose more money as it takes time, money, and mistakes to "bankroll scientific football investment", but once the right approach is found a club could be far more successful than under the old ex-footballers gut instinct approach (like Sunderland and Newcastle use to use).
I really don't know if the new scientific approach will work, but I do hope the Khan's keep investing in it and while so many here hope (especially ex-footballers) that he goes back to "bankrolling ex-football players trusting their gut instincts" the indirect evidence I can see is SK believes that "if he follows that approach he will be less successful that MAF with the same investment".
While ex-players want the new investment model to fail as it doesn't involve them as DOF, Fulham Fans need to hope that it works as Shahid Khan thinks the new approach will work, if the Khan's investment idea is stupid and doesn't work, I'm not sure he will go back to MAF or Ellis Short models. In fact even if Shahid Khan's investment model is stupid, as a Fulham Fan it is best he just keeps pouring money more an more money into it for as long as possible.
OMG, That was quite a rant TRF.
You still haven't explained how we will evade FFP if "he keeps pouring money in".
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 29, 2020, 03:13:58 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 01:18:56 AM
In fact even if Shahid Khan's investment model is stupid, as a Fulham Fan it is best he just keeps pouring money more an more money into it for as long as possible.
OMG, That was quite a rant TRF.
You still haven't explained how we will evade FFP if "he keeps pouring money in".
I'll give you my tips to avoid FFP while keeping the money pouring in.
Tips to Evade FFP
1. Build a bigger stadium, depreciation for the stadium is not including in FFP Statement of Financial Performance (i.e. profit and loss statement), but revenue for gate receipts and non-matchday income is including and can be spent on player wages. So a £100m stadium upgrade provides 100,000 ticket sales to spend on players each year.
2. Build a youth academy and invest in players under 18, not all expenses for youth are not included in FFP expenses, while sales from such player are generally included in the revenue. And, coaches wages at youth academies can be put under youth cost but can help the senior team too.
3. Ensure that the club doesn't need to be audited by the owner or the taxman. Pick a DOF that the owner will never audit and will lose money so the taxman is not interested in player profits.
4. If audited by the football association, it is important to have a DOF that people assume that every incorrect valuation is an honest mistake and all errors were caused by incompetence. For example, when we went up to the premier league Fonte was impaired downwards, but when we went down to the championship if Seri's value was not impaired downwards.
The overestimation of Seri 2019 value is likely an honest mistake (especially as its the same person that overrated him in 2018). Seri's overrated value at the start of this season means we don't have to expense losses for Seri and can afford Reed to play for us this season.
5. Pour £13m of owners equity into the club every season in the championship and £35m of owner equity into the club every season in the premier league, because debt financing such as loan has lower FFP limits. Owners can invest £87m capital over five years assuming one of those years is in the premier league and £87m of losses would still be within FFP limits.
Conclusion
Ultimately, I'd prefer to be in Fulham's financial position with TK than in Sheffield United's financial position relying on only TV money to keep the squad going, as one day they will invest poorly and tv money ends.
We had some bad investments that couldn't keep us up as hoped, maybe we'll bounce back up, maybe we can sell some players and rebuild, but even if everything goes bad then reinvestment into the stadium, youth and the squad will get us mid-table in the championship after a few years.
Most teams that fall have to wait longer than us to get back there. Sheffield United may last three to five years at the top, but one day their squad will get old and fail, then where does the new investment come from. Without the Khans, a drop into League One (like Huddersfiled may do) could mean a complete non-recovery situation and vultures circling Craven Cottages valuable real estate.
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 29, 2020, 03:13:58 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 01:18:56 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 28, 2020, 11:49:45 PM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 26, 2020, 07:14:32 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 26, 2020, 12:50:05 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 23, 2020, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
If not the investment, but the selection of transfers has needed to be more careful/astute for some time. Paying top dollar doesn't necessarily get you the best players. Not just them, but see Brentford as an example.
I'd prefer the DOF to spend the biggest budget to build the 2nd best squad, than the 10th biggest budget for the 5th best squad.
University research for NFL teams has proven when owners become less involved in the day to day running of the club, the owner investment decreases and the team slides. Spending a small amount money well is not as good at building a squad as spending a large amount of money poorly.
Be careful what you wish for. If you want the owners son to be less involved with the club, i'm sure it will end in tears.
I do not know much about The NFL, is there any form of FFP involved. I know there is in The Championship. So if we continue to spend as you call it "the biggest budget" we will likely find ourselves being hit with a transfer embargo or a serious points deduction.
I am convinced the findings for football would be identical to the university research for NFL. In NFL, a professional knowledgeable DOF doesn't make much difference long-term if the owner knows nothing about football. Every DOF is out to impress their boss (the owner) more than get good results, so if your boss is "The Glazers" or "The Galácticos" then your DOF will be buying overpriced players like Paul Pogba, David Beckham and Michael Owen.
We are very lucky to have Shahid Khan as our owner as he has the two most important things in an owner i) lots of money that he is willing to spend and ii) wanting trophies more than profit; unfortunately he also know less about football than any other owner in the EFL. Fortunately, we also have his son who while not incredibly knowledgeable (he is below average) is more knowledgeable than many American owners and seems to be gaining knowledge quickly. Hence, combined Shahid Khan and Tony Khan are much stronger combination than one of them only. Tony Khan leabing would be a disaster on a scale that I doubt anyone can fathom, especially as he is the future owner anyway.
I know all ex-football players don't want guys like TK taking the jobs that they traditionally do after hanging up there boots, but as the Khans implied when they bought this club "ex-football players running clubs on gut instincts always loss money" and they hope they can find a new way of running a club that is successful using "scientific management". Shahid Khan got rich by using "scientific six sigma management" in "bumper bars manufacture" when many thought that was silly.
The Khan's realized that initially, such an approach would lose more money as it takes time, money, and mistakes to "bankroll scientific football investment", but once the right approach is found a club could be far more successful than under the old ex-footballers gut instinct approach (like Sunderland and Newcastle use to use).
I really don't know if the new scientific approach will work, but I do hope the Khan's keep investing in it and while so many here hope (especially ex-footballers) that he goes back to "bankrolling ex-football players trusting their gut instincts" the indirect evidence I can see is SK believes that "if he follows that approach he will be less successful that MAF with the same investment".
While ex-players want the new investment model to fail as it doesn't involve them as DOF, Fulham Fans need to hope that it works as Shahid Khan thinks the new approach will work, if the Khan's investment idea is stupid and doesn't work, I'm not sure he will go back to MAF or Ellis Short models. In fact even if Shahid Khan's investment model is stupid, as a Fulham Fan it is best he just keeps pouring money more an more money into it for as long as possible.
OMG, That was quite a rant TRF.
You still haven't explained how we will evade FFP if "he keeps pouring money in".
Well for the three-year period to the end of this season, under FFP he's been entitled to pour in £61m. That's £61m from his own pocket, on top of our TV money, parachute payments etc. And that's in addition to whatever he's paying to build the Riverside Stand. And it may well be increased to allow for the economic impact of COVID-19 on football. So it's not as if "pouring money in" necessarily leads to an FFP breach. He can pour a f***load of money in, give us a great team, a new stand, economic security and promotion, all without breaching FFP.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 04:40:40 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 29, 2020, 03:13:58 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 01:18:56 AM
In fact even if Shahid Khan's investment model is stupid, as a Fulham Fan it is best he just keeps pouring money more an more money into it for as long as possible.
OMG, That was quite a rant TRF.
You still haven't explained how we will evade FFP if "he keeps pouring money in".
I'll give you my tips to avoid FFP while keeping the money pouring in.
Tips to Evade FFP
1. Build a bigger stadium, depreciation for the stadium is not including in FFP Statement of Financial Performance (i.e. profit and loss statement), but revenue for gate receipts and non-matchday income is including and can be spent on player wages. So a £100m stadium upgrade provides 100,000 ticket sales to spend on players each year.
2. Build a youth academy and invest in players under 18, not all expenses for youth are not included in FFP expenses, while sales from such player are generally included in the revenue. And, coaches wages at youth academies can be put under youth cost but can help the senior team too.
3. Ensure that the club doesn't need to be audited by the owner or the taxman. Pick a DOF that the owner will never audit and will lose money so the taxman is not interested in player profits.
4. If audited by the football association, it is important to have a DOF that people assume that every incorrect valuation is an honest mistake and all errors were caused by incompetence. For example, when we went up to the premier league Fonte was impaired downwards, but when we went down to the championship if Seri's value was not impaired downwards.
The overestimation of Seri 2019 value is likely an honest mistake (especially as its the same person that overrated him in 2018). Seri's overrated value at the start of this season means we don't have to expense losses for Seri and can afford Reed to play for us this season.
5. Pour £13m of owners equity into the club every season in the championship and £35m of owner equity into the club every season in the premier league, because debt financing such as loan has lower FFP limits. Owners can invest £87m capital over five years assuming one of those years is in the premier league and £87m of losses would still be within FFP limits.
Conclusion
Ultimately, I'd prefer to be in Fulham's financial position with TK than in Sheffield United's financial position relying on only TV money to keep the squad going, as one day they will invest poorly and tv money ends.
We had some bad investments that couldn't keep us up as hoped, maybe we'll bounce back up, maybe we can sell some players and rebuild, but even if everything goes bad then reinvestment into the stadium, youth and the squad will get us mid-table in the championship after a few years.
Most teams that fall have to wait longer than us to get back there. Sheffield United may last three to five years at the top, but one day their squad will get old and fail, then where does the new investment come from. Without the Khans, a drop into League One (like Huddersfiled may do) could mean a complete non-recovery situation and vultures circling Craven Cottages valuable real estate.
First and foremost build a fully qualified Director of Football.
Quote from: Statto on June 29, 2020, 10:15:54 AM
Well for the three-year period to the end of this season, under FFP he's been entitled to pour in £61m. That's £61m from his own pocket, on top of our TV money, parachute payments etc. And that's in addition to whatever he's paying to build the Riverside Stand. And it may well be increased to allow for the economic impact of COVID-19 on football. So it's not as if "pouring money in" necessarily leads to an FFP breach. He can pour a f***load of money in, give us a great team, a new stand, economic security and promotion, all without breaching FFP.
If Tony Khan runs out of ideas, just buy as many players as possible from the "under 18 England squad" with £100m (probably 25 players) and sign them on five-year contracts. Most of them will lose money as they will flop, which can be written off as youth development costs, while others will be sold to make profits that can be used to buy other players.
Most grounds have some costs for ground repairs that probably need to be included in FFP cost, but if you upgrade a stand that cost is exempt even though it may mean many years of no (or minimum) maintenance costs. My guess is this new stand has all maintenance cost built into the building contract cost, as in pay £100m for the stand (which is FFP exempt) get free maintenance.
Any long-term investment that improves football is basically FFP exempt, but any short-term revenue from the investment can be used to buy players. FFP can delays the impact of money potentially by several years, but it cannot stop the impact forever.
The EFL knows football clubs know clubs will be built bigger grounds, build training facilitates and invest in youth development to get themselves more money to invest in their squad. They can stop a club buying a premier league squad, but they cannot stop a new club building a premier league squad from stratch.
If the money pours in year after year after year, no one can stop the Khans being a premier league team. Having a DOF that is learning football and a coach that the latest ex-footballer to turn coach might slow things down a little, but the only thing that can stop this is the Khans losing interest.
Why do we keep saying that TK doesn't know anything about football, he has been here a while, so I reckon he knows a lot more that we think, especially as all I keep hearing is that we have best squad in the league.
Quote from: alfie on June 29, 2020, 07:07:23 PM
Why do we keep saying that TK doesn't know anything about football, he has been here a while, so I reckon he knows a lot more that we think, especially as all I keep hearing is that we have best squad in the league.
We do not have the best squad
When he speaks he displays massive ignorance
The continual short comings in the squad are down entirely to him being a massive amateur.
The idea anyone things he is competent is nonsensical
Quote from: ALG01 on June 29, 2020, 07:11:12 PM
Quote from: alfie on June 29, 2020, 07:07:23 PM
Why do we keep saying that TK doesn't know anything about football, he has been here a while, so I reckon he knows a lot more that we think, especially as all I keep hearing is that we have best squad in the league.
We do not have the best squad
When he speaks he displays massive ignorance
The continual short comings in the squad are down entirely to him being a massive amateur.
The idea anyone things he is competent is nonsensical
Funny how all us supporters are all professional, we are so arrogant, unless you are with him you have no idea what/when and why things are done.
If you listen to Gordon Davis, he was saying as soon as the play off final was finished they were on the phone trying to tie up deals, but clubs weren't playing ball, making buyers wait until last minute, he explained the Hector problem and it wasn't down to Fulham, but I guess it's easy to throw accusations around when we don't actually know.
Look not trying to be rude mate, but I just find it so frustrating when things are said without knowing the full facts.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 04:40:40 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 29, 2020, 03:13:58 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 01:18:56 AM
In fact even if Shahid Khan's investment model is stupid, as a Fulham Fan it is best he just keeps pouring money more an more money into it for as long as possible.
OMG, That was quite a rant TRF.
You still haven't explained how we will evade FFP if "he keeps pouring money in".
I'll give you my tips to avoid FFP while keeping the money pouring in.
Tips to Evade FFP
1. Build a bigger stadium, depreciation for the stadium is not including in FFP Statement of Financial Performance (i.e. profit and loss statement), but revenue for gate receipts and non-matchday income is including and can be spent on player wages. So a £100m stadium upgrade provides 100,000 ticket sales to spend on players each year.
2. Build a youth academy and invest in players under 18, not all expenses for youth are not included in FFP expenses, while sales from such player are generally included in the revenue. And, coaches wages at youth academies can be put under youth cost but can help the senior team too.
3. Ensure that the club doesn't need to be audited by the owner or the taxman. Pick a DOF that the owner will never audit and will lose money so the taxman is not interested in player profits.
4. If audited by the football association, it is important to have a DOF that people assume that every incorrect valuation is an honest mistake and all errors were caused by incompetence. For example, when we went up to the premier league Fonte was impaired downwards, but when we went down to the championship if Seri's value was not impaired downwards.
The overestimation of Seri 2019 value is likely an honest mistake (especially as its the same person that overrated him in 2018). Seri's overrated value at the start of this season means we don't have to expense losses for Seri and can afford Reed to play for us this season.
5. Pour £13m of owners equity into the club every season in the championship and £35m of owner equity into the club every season in the premier league, because debt financing such as loan has lower FFP limits. Owners can invest £87m capital over five years assuming one of those years is in the premier league and £87m of losses would still be within FFP limits.
Conclusion
Ultimately, I'd prefer to be in Fulham's financial position with TK than in Sheffield United's financial position relying on only TV money to keep the squad going, as one day they will invest poorly and tv money ends.
We had some bad investments that couldn't keep us up as hoped, maybe we'll bounce back up, maybe we can sell some players and rebuild, but even if everything goes bad then reinvestment into the stadium, youth and the squad will get us mid-table in the championship after a few years.
Most teams that fall have to wait longer than us to get back there. Sheffield United may last three to five years at the top, but one day their squad will get old and fail, then where does the new investment come from. Without the Khans, a drop into League One (like Huddersfiled may do) could mean a complete non-recovery situation and vultures circling Craven Cottages valuable real estate.
So what your saying is totally ignore/flout FFP taking steps to confuse the regulators.
There have been a number of clubs that have tried this only to fall fowl.
In all of your above proposals you are assuming that Shahid is prepared to keep on investing ridiculous amounts.
At the end of the day his business head would likely prevent this.
Quote from: Jims Dentist on July 02, 2020, 12:53:12 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 04:40:40 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 29, 2020, 03:13:58 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 29, 2020, 01:18:56 AM
In fact even if Shahid Khan's investment model is stupid, as a Fulham Fan it is best he just keeps pouring money more an more money into it for as long as possible.
OMG, That was quite a rant TRF.
You still haven't explained how we will evade FFP if "he keeps pouring money in".
I'll give you my tips to avoid FFP while keeping the money pouring in.
Tips to Evade FFP
1. Build a bigger stadium, depreciation for the stadium is not including in FFP Statement of Financial Performance (i.e. profit and loss statement), but revenue for gate receipts and non-matchday income is including and can be spent on player wages. So a £100m stadium upgrade provides 100,000 ticket sales to spend on players each year.
2. Build a youth academy and invest in players under 18, not all expenses for youth are not included in FFP expenses, while sales from such player are generally included in the revenue. And, coaches wages at youth academies can be put under youth cost but can help the senior team too.
3. Ensure that the club doesn't need to be audited by the owner or the taxman. Pick a DOF that the owner will never audit and will lose money so the taxman is not interested in player profits.
4. If audited by the football association, it is important to have a DOF that people assume that every incorrect valuation is an honest mistake and all errors were caused by incompetence. For example, when we went up to the premier league Fonte was impaired downwards, but when we went down to the championship if Seri's value was not impaired downwards.
The overestimation of Seri 2019 value is likely an honest mistake (especially as its the same person that overrated him in 2018). Seri's overrated value at the start of this season means we don't have to expense losses for Seri and can afford Reed to play for us this season.
5. Pour £13m of owners equity into the club every season in the championship and £35m of owner equity into the club every season in the premier league, because debt financing such as loan has lower FFP limits. Owners can invest £87m capital over five years assuming one of those years is in the premier league and £87m of losses would still be within FFP limits.
Conclusion
Ultimately, I'd prefer to be in Fulham's financial position with TK than in Sheffield United's financial position relying on only TV money to keep the squad going, as one day they will invest poorly and tv money ends.
We had some bad investments that couldn't keep us up as hoped, maybe we'll bounce back up, maybe we can sell some players and rebuild, but even if everything goes bad then reinvestment into the stadium, youth and the squad will get us mid-table in the championship after a few years.
Most teams that fall have to wait longer than us to get back there. Sheffield United may last three to five years at the top, but one day their squad will get old and fail, then where does the new investment come from. Without the Khans, a drop into League One (like Huddersfiled may do) could mean a complete non-recovery situation and vultures circling Craven Cottages valuable real estate.
So what your saying is totally ignore/flout FFP taking steps to confuse the regulators.
There have been a number of clubs that have tried this only to fall fowl.
In all of your above proposals you are assuming that Shahid is prepared to keep on investing ridiculous amounts. At the end of the day his business head would likely prevent this.
The FFP relegation has been, in theory, been put in place to prevent clubs going bankrupt and prevent owners from financial doping their clubs to achieve temporary success at the expense of football. Investing equity in building stadiums (suggestion 1) and youth academies (suggestion 1) provides a very sustainable future for the club being good for football.
So these ways of getting ahead, will not be seen by the courts as flouting FFP rules even though other clubs see anyone getting ahead though investment as flouting FFP rules (as hate any club getting ahead).
I guess my suggestions 3 and 4 are flouting the rules, but all very hard to prove. As for suggestion 5, it is clearly flouting the rules but 20 clubs in the championship are doing it so its almost excepted.
You are correct, if Shahid Khan cannot get into the premier league with parachute payments then other methods would take an insane amount of money because it wouldn't be directly on players but on academies, faciltitates and stadiums. I guess if we don't get promoted soon, Shahid Khan may be happy being mid-table championship and we may never get in the premier league again.
Whether we get back into the premier league depend on how much Shaid Khan is willing to invest and how we invest it. If he losses interest, we will never go up again. If he maintains investment and willing to lose 10% of his sons inheritance (or £300m+ over years) to do it, there is no way we cannot get back.
If he is willing to invest in the stadium, youth, training facilitates, statistics recruitment; the investment might be almost self-sustaining once established in the premier league (something MAF never achieved).
In my humble opinion suggestions 3,4 and 5 would not be tolerated by the powers that be.
Quote from: ALG01 on June 29, 2020, 07:11:12 PM
Quote from: alfie on June 29, 2020, 07:07:23 PM
Why do we keep saying that TK doesn%u2019t know anything about football, he has been here a while, so I reckon he knows a lot more that we think, especially as all I keep hearing is that we have best squad in the league.
We do not have the best squad
When he speaks he displays massive ignorance
The continual short comings in the squad are down entirely to him being a massive amateur.
The idea anyone things he is competent is nonsensical
What is your barometer to say he doesn't perform as well as most of the DoF in the championship? Name 5 currently in the Championship you'd rather have?
His being incompetent at his job is purely subjective opinion with very little fact to support it.
We're currently looking to hopefully finish with close to 80 points again this year, with essentially a manager as green as the DoF. Let's say we finish with 78 points.
With Tony Khan as DOF Fulham have finished their Championship seasons with 80 points, 88 points and 78 points. Look at their league points prior to TK being in charge.
Look at how the team performed from 2002-2016. You think TK is incompetent?
Compare him to the Brentford DOF since 2017. In that time this is the first season where Brentford will have more points than Fulham...and we don't even know if Brentford will finish the current season above us. Yet, you're going to say their DoF is better because of the value they get with their players?
How are Hull, Huddersfield and Cardiff doing? Are their DoF trending upwards or downwards? Milwall? Derby? Forest?
You don't have to like him, but we can do MUCH worse than having him...as Fulham fans should know full well.
I'm not saying he doesn't have a lot to learn...but if he does learn can you imagine how good the
club will be?
Sent from my CMR-W19 using Tapatalk
Quote from: AnOldBrownie on July 09, 2020, 03:43:03 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on June 29, 2020, 07:11:12 PM
Quote from: alfie on June 29, 2020, 07:07:23 PM
Why do we keep saying that TK doesn%u2019t know anything about football, he has been here a while, so I reckon he knows a lot more that we think, especially as all I keep hearing is that we have best squad in the league.
We do not have the best squad
When he speaks he displays massive ignorance
The continual short comings in the squad are down entirely to him being a massive amateur.
The idea anyone things he is competent is nonsensical
What is your barometer to say he doesn't perform as well as most of the DoF in the championship? Name 5 currently in the Championship you'd rather have?
His being incompetent at his job is purely subjective opinion with very little fact to support it.
We're currently looking to hopefully finish with close to 80 points again this year, with essentially a manager as green as the DoF. Let's say we finish with 78 points.
With Tony Khan as DOF Fulham have finished their Championship seasons with 80 points, 88 points and 78 points. Look at their league points prior to TK being in charge.
Look at how the team performed from 2002-2016. You think TK is incompetent?
Compare him to the Brentford DOF since 2017. In that time this is the first season where Brentford will have more points than Fulham...and we don't even know if Brentford will finish the current season above us. Yet, you're going to say their DoF is better because of the value they get with their players?
You don't have to like him, but we can do MUCH worse than having him...as Fulham fans should know full well. I'm not saying he doesn't have a lot to learn...but if he does learn can you imagine how good the club will be?
I know ex-football pundits (like Ian Wright) have launched an all-out attack on Tony Khan, but those attacks are mostly self-interested because they want ex-footballers in every position in football and if TK is component then maybe amateur footballers could do other roles like pundits.
But every Fulham DOF/Manager (since Micky Adams) that has been here 18 months or more has produced a financial loss and never once returned a pound to the owner, the financial figures are in the link below. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/03374347/filing-history
MAF had eight managers (including Keegan, Bracewell, Tigana, Coleman, Sanchez, Hodgson, Hughes, and Martin Jol) that were all total failures financial and most had bigger percentage losses than Tony Khan. The last managers to do better than Tony Khan financially are Alan Dicks, Don Mackay, Ian Bradfoot, and Micky Adams, but that was only achieved by paying players the same as the cleaners.
Tony Khan's 14.6% loss in 18/19 (first season up), doesn't seem so bad compared to a) Tigana 103% loss in 2001/02 (first season up), b) Colemans 41% loss in 2005/06, c) Hodson's 22% loss in 2009/10, or d) Martin Jols 23.7% loss in 2011/12.
As for getting out of what is now the Championship, Tony Khan's 126% loss in 17/18 seems like a genius DOF, when compared to Tigana's 242% loss in 2000/01. But frankly, under Tigana there was no FFP so no one cared about money and failed to realise that we have never been good at spending it. Despite Tigana being a totally financial disaster, the football was beautiful, we got up, its my not money and MAF seemed to enjoy spending it in what would have been hard times for him.
In the end, Shahid Khan is probably willing to accept that Tony Khan has been a financial failure like every one of MAFs DOF; the question is what does he do next. I honestly don't believe any DOF can make this club profitable.
As Shahid Khan is just giving some DOF money for him to lose, so surely the question for SK is not "how much he losses?", but "Giving money to which DOF gives the most joy for the cost?". SK probably gets the most joy from giving this DOF all the money FFP will allow and if he doesn that year after year, we will get back into the premier league eventually.
Alternatively, if TK resigns it will be harder for us to keep losing more and more money, which we will have to do to get into premier league, because no DOF can breakeven financially and get us up. In truth, I don't know what Fulham will look like without TK, but things could be so much worse. And, given TKs unique ability to work with the owner, if he learns more we could be hard to stop.
It is what it is.
Fulham are fortunate enough to have a millionaire owner, and Tony is his son, who heads the transfer team, which supposedly had a two tick way of acquiring players - stats, and scouting reports - the manager's opinion is also asked for nd given, we've heard.
Fulham have spent a lot on players in recent seasons, though constrained by FFP, and a new stand is being built.
Thee have been some very successful acquisitions and some unsuccessful - bought under stress to bring in players to Fulham. with a season in the Prem fast approaching.
But, even top clubs have expensive flops, as we well know.
Just think, we could be like Huddersfield, no money to spend on players, and facing another relegtion.
Tony Khan's worst signings were when Rui Fonte was our leading center-forward, and we wanted to buy some potentially good premier league footballers. Without Mitrovic signed up yet, I don't know if better players than Fabri, MLM, Seri, and Schurrle were available.
No sane player would join Fulham, thinking FFC could stay up with its best XI at the start of the window being: Betts; Christie, Odoi, Ream, R.Sess; KMac, Stefjo, Cairney; Kamara, Fonte, Atyie with Button, Djola and Kebano on the bench. This season, if we go up the squad may need some extra players, but the squad will have more depth already at the club, especially with loan players returned.
I respect the variety of opinions on here, but the level to which some staunchly defend him always feels beyond belief to me.
For example, I don't understand the 'he has access to his fathers money' argument. If Khan Sr is only willing to finance us on the basis of his son being in a role, then he would be a very poor owner. I don't believe this view actually holds any weight, but it's often trotted out as it is impossible to disprove.
I think the opinions that should be heeded by us as fans are from those within the game, where if you dig deep enough to ask, Fulham's reputation has taken a nosedive under Tony. We are often laughed at.
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 09, 2020, 11:01:01 AM
I respect the variety of opinions on here, but the level to which some staunchly defend him always feels beyond belief to me.
For example, I don't understand the 'he has access to his fathers money' argument. If Khan Sr is only willing to finance us on the basis of his son being in a role, then he would be a very poor owner. I don't believe this view actually holds any weight, but it's often trotted out as it is impossible to disprove.
I think the opinions that should be heeded by us as fans are from those within the game, where if you dig deep enough to ask, Fulham's reputation has taken a nosedive under Tony. We are often laughed at.
I'm guessing that over the years you have been learning about football, why is it so hard to believe that TK cannot do the same, the arrogance of us supporters in believing that only we know best.
To be honest I have not really noticed anyone laughing.
The guy has made mistakes of course he has, which is something we all do, but we try and learn from those mistakes, I for one believe that he has, but as we all know it's all about opinions.
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 09, 2020, 11:01:01 AM
I respect the variety of opinions on here, but the level to which some staunchly defend him always feels beyond belief to me.
For example, I don't understand the 'he has access to his fathers money' argument. If Khan Sr is only willing to finance us on the basis of his son being in a role, then he would be a very poor owner. I don't believe this view actually holds any weight, but it's often trotted out as it is impossible to disprove.
I think the opinions that should be heeded by us as fans are from those within the game, where if you dig deep enough to ask, Fulham's reputation has taken a nosedive under Tony. We are often laughed at.
How is your statement that "Fulham's reputation has taken a nosedive under Tony" any different than the argument that "he has access to his fathers money"? Aren't both statements difficult or impossible to prove, and most likely just something that is repeated by a small number of people until they themselves and a select few others believe it to be true? Or is there any factual basis for this reputational "nosedive", and if so is there any factual evidence that said "nosedive" is because of TK?
With regard to FFC's reputation in football taking a nosedive, one person did mention this to me last summer whilst i was spending an afternoon at cricket. Gentleman in question does scouting (mainly in Europe, often France) and seemed quite fond of Fulham but was scathing in how club operates. I won't say too much as some of the stuff he said could lead in legal proceedings against this forum.
It is of course, entirely possible, that he might hold a grudge for whatever reason.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 26, 2020, 07:14:32 AM
Quote from: Jims Dentist on June 26, 2020, 12:50:05 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on June 23, 2020, 01:52:04 AM
Quote from: FulhamStu on June 20, 2020, 08:08:01 AM
You see, I think in some ways he has stepped aside with the Javi appointment.
Now TK has stepped back a little, it will be interesting to see if the investment into the team continues, or will the investment be more careful.
If not the investment, but the selection of transfers has needed to be more careful/astute for some time. Paying top dollar doesn't necessarily get you the best players. Not just them, but see Brentford as an example.
I'd prefer the DOF to spend the biggest budget to build the 2nd best squad, than the 10th biggest budget for the 5th best squad.
University research for NFL teams has proven when owners become less involved in the day to day running of the club, the owner investment decreases and the team slides. Spending a small amount money well is not as good at building a squad as spending a large amount of money poorly.
Be careful what you wish for. If you want the owners son to be less involved with the club, i'm sure it will end in tears.
Explain the Dallas Cowboys then?
Quote from: Sting of the North on July 09, 2020, 11:20:27 AM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 09, 2020, 11:01:01 AM
I respect the variety of opinions on here, but the level to which some staunchly defend him always feels beyond belief to me.
For example, I don't understand the 'he has access to his fathers money' argument. If Khan Sr is only willing to finance us on the basis of his son being in a role, then he would be a very poor owner. I don't believe this view actually holds any weight, but it's often trotted out as it is impossible to disprove.
I think the opinions that should be heeded by us as fans are from those within the game, where if you dig deep enough to ask, Fulham's reputation has taken a nosedive under Tony. We are often laughed at.
How is your statement that "Fulham's reputation has taken a nosedive under Tony" any different than the argument that "he has access to his fathers money"? Aren't both statements difficult or impossible to prove, and most likely just something that is repeated by a small number of people until they themselves and a select few others believe it to be true? Or is there any factual basis for this reputational "nosedive", and if so is there any factual evidence that said "nosedive" is because of TK?
Ask around - if you know people in the game, or even just in football media, they'll tell you. I suppose I can evidence it, because it is peoples words/opinions and how do you evidence an opinion? But I've spoken to ex-players and current media people and it isn't favourable.
Quote from: alfie on July 09, 2020, 11:11:29 AM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 09, 2020, 11:01:01 AM
I respect the variety of opinions on here, but the level to which some staunchly defend him always feels beyond belief to me.
For example, I don't understand the 'he has access to his fathers money' argument. If Khan Sr is only willing to finance us on the basis of his son being in a role, then he would be a very poor owner. I don't believe this view actually holds any weight, but it's often trotted out as it is impossible to disprove.
I think the opinions that should be heeded by us as fans are from those within the game, where if you dig deep enough to ask, Fulham's reputation has taken a nosedive under Tony. We are often laughed at.
I'm guessing that over the years you have been learning about football, why is it so hard to believe that TK cannot do the same, the arrogance of us supporters in believing that only we know best.
To be honest I have not really noticed anyone laughing.
The guy has made mistakes of course he has, which is something we all do, but we try and learn from those mistakes, I for one believe that he has, but as we all know it's all about opinions.
I'm not really talking about his ability/experience here when I say I am surprised as to how people feel about his involvement, but as you asked why is it not OK for him to learn, I suppose my answer is this? It isn't a problem at all. But to learn on the job? For that role, that seems insane to me. The club is important to so many; yet an amateur was given the wheel. He assumed control when he didn't have the experience to do so. At that position, I would want the very best and a senior official with someone under them who learns, not the other way around.
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 09, 2020, 12:02:35 PM
Quote from: alfie on July 09, 2020, 11:11:29 AM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 09, 2020, 11:01:01 AM
I respect the variety of opinions on here, but the level to which some staunchly defend him always feels beyond belief to me.
For example, I don't understand the 'he has access to his fathers money' argument. If Khan Sr is only willing to finance us on the basis of his son being in a role, then he would be a very poor owner. I don't believe this view actually holds any weight, but it's often trotted out as it is impossible to disprove.
I think the opinions that should be heeded by us as fans are from those within the game, where if you dig deep enough to ask, Fulham's reputation has taken a nosedive under Tony. We are often laughed at.
I'm guessing that over the years you have been learning about football, why is it so hard to believe that TK cannot do the same, the arrogance of us supporters in believing that only we know best.
To be honest I have not really noticed anyone laughing.
The guy has made mistakes of course he has, which is something we all do, but we try and learn from those mistakes, I for one believe that he has, but as we all know it's all about opinions.
I'm not really talking about his ability/experience here when I say I am surprised as to how people feel about his involvement, but as you asked why is it not OK for him to learn, I suppose my answer is this? It isn't a problem at all. But to learn on the job? For that role, that seems insane to me. The club is important to so many; yet an amateur was given the wheel. He assumed control when he didn't have the experience to do so. At that position, I would want the very best and a senior official with someone under them who learns, not the other way around.
Isn't this very common though in football? That you learn on the job? Like Zidane took over Real Madrid with close to zero experience. Or Lampard, or Gerrard, or lots of people. I agree that it often seems bizarre, but sometimes it works out. For me the main issue is whether or not he has good experienced advisors or not, and whether or not he listens to them.
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 09, 2020, 11:58:18 AM
Quote from: Sting of the North on July 09, 2020, 11:20:27 AM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 09, 2020, 11:01:01 AM
I respect the variety of opinions on here, but the level to which some staunchly defend him always feels beyond belief to me.
For example, I don't understand the 'he has access to his fathers money' argument. If Khan Sr is only willing to finance us on the basis of his son being in a role, then he would be a very poor owner. I don't believe this view actually holds any weight, but it's often trotted out as it is impossible to disprove.
I think the opinions that should be heeded by us as fans are from those within the game, where if you dig deep enough to ask, Fulham's reputation has taken a nosedive under Tony. We are often laughed at.
How is your statement that "Fulham's reputation has taken a nosedive under Tony" any different than the argument that "he has access to his fathers money"? Aren't both statements difficult or impossible to prove, and most likely just something that is repeated by a small number of people until they themselves and a select few others believe it to be true? Or is there any factual basis for this reputational "nosedive", and if so is there any factual evidence that said "nosedive" is because of TK?
Ask around - if you know people in the game, or even just in football media, they'll tell you. I suppose I can evidence it, because it is peoples words/opinions and how do you evidence an opinion? But I've spoken to ex-players and current media people and it isn't favourable.
You are correct that you probably can't evidence it because it is entirely subjective. I also don't know of course what your sample size is, but there is always a risk of people parroting the views of those they interact with. The more important question may be whether the people he actually has to deal with is holding this view. He seems to be able to attract decent enough players for a club of Fulham's stature at least, so there's that. Personally, I do not know people that in any way deals with transfers on FFC's level, so I have no opinion on the matter.
Quote from: Sting of the North on July 09, 2020, 12:21:01 PM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 09, 2020, 12:02:35 PM
Quote from: alfie on July 09, 2020, 11:11:29 AM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 09, 2020, 11:01:01 AM
I respect the variety of opinions on here, but the level to which some staunchly defend him always feels beyond belief to me.
For example, I don't understand the 'he has access to his fathers money' argument. If Khan Sr is only willing to finance us on the basis of his son being in a role, then he would be a very poor owner. I don't believe this view actually holds any weight, but it's often trotted out as it is impossible to disprove.
I think the opinions that should be heeded by us as fans are from those within the game, where if you dig deep enough to ask, Fulham's reputation has taken a nosedive under Tony. We are often laughed at.
I'm guessing that over the years you have been learning about football, why is it so hard to believe that TK cannot do the same, the arrogance of us supporters in believing that only we know best.
To be honest I have not really noticed anyone laughing.
The guy has made mistakes of course he has, which is something we all do, but we try and learn from those mistakes, I for one believe that he has, but as we all know it's all about opinions.
I'm not really talking about his ability/experience here when I say I am surprised as to how people feel about his involvement, but as you asked why is it not OK for him to learn, I suppose my answer is this? It isn't a problem at all. But to learn on the job? For that role, that seems insane to me. The club is important to so many; yet an amateur was given the wheel. He assumed control when he didn't have the experience to do so. At that position, I would want the very best and a senior official with someone under them who learns, not the other way around.
Isn't this very common though in football? That you learn on the job? Like Zidane took over Real Madrid with close to zero experience. Or Lampard, or Gerrard, or lots of people. I agree that it often seems bizarre, but sometimes it works out. For me the main issue is whether or not he has good experienced advisors or not, and whether or not he listens to them.
It's common in certain roles; but even Gerrard and Lampard did cut their teeth first. Decades in the sport, and then both had coaching roles in youth teams (although I'm not sure on Lampard prior to Derby now I have said that), so you could say they haven't just dived straight into the hot seat. Prior to Javi, who would we say is TK's advisor? It didn't seem as though he came with one, but he swept all aside in order to be on top; and I say that as my perception of how it was, following on from reading the ramblings of the man on twitter for whom we shall not name.
I re-read my initial post, and I should word it more clearly. My surprise is not that people hold the views, but my surprise or what takes me back is that I see can see things one way and that so many people feel almost entirely the other. It's always a bit of a 'really? how?' moment. These discussions are open to everyone so you hear more views that maybe you would from inside your hub of friends/fellow fans you often engage with.
Quote from: Sting of the North on July 09, 2020, 12:21:01 PM
Like Zidane took over Real Madrid with close to zero experience. Or Lampard, or Gerrard, or lots of people.
I don't wish to engage in the TK bashing but the individuals you've named there are some of the biggest and most successful names in football, albeit not for achievements as managers. To compare TK to them is so shockingly absurd, I can only assume you were being ironic and I've missed it somehow...
Quote from: Statto on July 09, 2020, 02:35:08 PM
Quote from: Sting of the North on July 09, 2020, 12:21:01 PM
Like Zidane took over Real Madrid with close to zero experience. Or Lampard, or Gerrard, or lots of people.
I don't wish to engage in the TK bashing but the individuals you've named there are some of the biggest and most successful names in football, albeit not for achievements as managers. To compare TK to them is so shockingly absurd, I can only assume you were being ironic and I've missed it somehow...
Not ironic at all. You may believe that the comparison is shockingly absurd all you like, but it doesn't make it untrue. It probably makes you easily shocked though. The point (in case you care at all) was that people are hired for roles for which they are seemingly not qualified all the time. In the case of Zidane and company (including Parker, although he had at least a little more experience) it was because they were big name players. In TK's case it is because he is his fathers son. Neither should qualify you for such a high position in such a big club, but yet it happens all the time. I never stated that it was on the same level, just the same idea of having a short cut to a high position.
I have worked in the media for over 20 years and can assure you there are a lot of lazy journos. They perpetuate myths, cliches and hearsay when it comes to the smaller clubs because it doesn't make sales or clicks the way stories about 'big clubs' do. They simply, with the odd exception, don't do their homework.
I still hear 'Fulham blew £100m on new buys when they got promoted and abandoned their promotion team' whilst blindly ignoring the fact we had to convert or replace an impossible amount of loanees. These same journos have little to say about Villa spending more this season.
So yes, I hear things said by journos about the Khans and the club but take it with a pinch of salt. Whispers turn to shouts. There may be a seed of truth but it's been perpetuated and magnified as journos pay it forward in a lazy fashion.
I think those journalists do exist, but there's also a lot of good and thorough journos too who aren't the most, how can I put it... praising, of TK/Fulham these days. Obviously their opinions hold no more weight than you or I, but it's an example of voices outside of Fulham and how we are perceived now vs recent times.
Quote from: Sting of the North on July 09, 2020, 02:43:56 PM
Quote from: Statto on July 09, 2020, 02:35:08 PM
Quote from: Sting of the North on July 09, 2020, 12:21:01 PM
Like Zidane took over Real Madrid with close to zero experience. Or Lampard, or Gerrard, or lots of people.
I don't wish to engage in the TK bashing but the individuals you've named there are some of the biggest and most successful names in football, albeit not for achievements as managers. To compare TK to them is so shockingly absurd, I can only assume you were being ironic and I've missed it somehow...
Not ironic at all. You may believe that the comparison is shockingly absurd all you like, but it doesn't make it untrue. It probably makes you easily shocked though. The point (in case you care at all) was that people are hired for roles for which they are seemingly not qualified all the time. In the case of Zidane and company (including Parker, although he had at least a little more experience) it was because they were big name players. In TK's case it is because he is his fathers son. Neither should qualify you for such a high position in such a big club, but yet it happens all the time. I never stated that it was on the same level, just the same idea of having a short cut to a high position.
It was possibly an extreme comparison/not the best comparison because of their history within the game. The closest I can think of is when the Wigan owner made his young grandson chairman. It's hard to find examples of this, because it is so, so unusual within professional sport. Part of why so many dislike it.
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 09, 2020, 11:01:01 AM
I respect the variety of opinions on here, but the level to which some staunchly defend him always feels beyond belief to me.
For example, I don't understand the 'he has access to his fathers money' argument. If Khan Sr is only willing to finance us on the basis of his son being in a role, then he would be a very poor owner. I don't believe this view actually holds any weight, but it's often trotted out as it is impossible to disprove.
I think the opinions that should be heeded by us as fans are from those within the game, where if you dig deep enough to ask, Fulham's reputation has taken a nosedive under Tony. We are often laughed at.
How has the clubs reputation taken a nose dive other than the EPL being too difficult a task for Slava and Claudio?
We're not losing players we want to keep. We bring in apparently talented footballers. The owner isn't afraid to invest in the club. The youth development is good at the club even though first team opportunities could be made more readily available to them.
Sorry...I SEE growth and success under TK (comparing the results to various comparable clubs), even though I also see the missteps as well.
Learning on the job as a DoF is probably one of the worst ways to start the position...but honestly... he's still making it work.
Sent from my CMR-W19 using Tapatalk
i look at this way.
If TK had to stand on his own two feet and did not have his dad's money to play with
no other team would even begin to want to employ him
no other team would have even given him an interview for the job
in short he is an amateur and it shows. he does not have the requisite experience and does not really seem to comprehend what is going on around him. his fiction during the interview is what he believes and that is troubling.
I do believe he loves the club and wants what is best but unfortunately he cannot see that what is best is him stepping away from anything to do with team matters.
The idea anyone would emply him other than us is laughable, and that in the end is the fact that makes all the defence of him melt away.
Quote from: ALG01 on July 09, 2020, 10:30:56 PM
i look at this way.
If TK had to stand on his own two feet and did not have his dad's money to play with
no other team would even begin to want to employ him
no other team would have even given him an interview for the job
in short he is an amateur and it shows. he does not have the requisite experience and does not really seem to comprehend what is going on around him. his fiction during the interview is what he believes and that is troubling.
I do believe he loves the club and wants what is best but unfortunately he cannot see that what is best is him stepping away from anything to do with team matters.
The idea anyone would emply him other than us is laughable, and that in the end is the fact that makes all the defence of him melt away.
It's also irrelevant. Much more experienced directors of football operations have done much worse than him at their respected clubs, regardless of their experience.
He loves the club and it's doing well.
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 09, 2020, 11:01:01 AM
I don't understand the 'he has access to his fathers money' argument. If Khan Sr is only willing to finance us on the basis of his son being in a role, then he would be a very poor owner.
I wonder why you think Shahid Khan would give this club more money. If you cannot answer why he would give the club money in the future with another DOF then maybe you should accept one of the answers below. I personally believe without more money, the best club we can be like is Cardiff.
The options for why SK will continue to give the club money include:
A. he doesn't care about the cash flow, as long as the fans give him some love in return
B. he wants to produce positive cash flow (or sale) and thinks the right ex-footballer can
C. he wants to produce positive cash flow and thinks a data-scientist rather than ex-football can
D. he doesn't care about cash flow, as its an expensive hobby that he and his son can afford
E. he doesn't care about cash flow, as long as his son gains experience for the Khan empire.
What is best for the fans in each option:
A. As MAF just wanted to be loved and complaining worked, Sk will respond to the same methods
B. Convince SK that even through MAF failed using this method, it will work now. Why i don't know?
C. Make SK realize that creating a successful football team with data science is moronic. Sell the Club
D. Convince SK that his expensive hobby would be more enjoyable with his son gone.
E. Convince SK to sack TK, but keep giving Fulham's DOF the money for TK experience.
Likelihood of each option
A. Unlikely, as SK is not some rich English owner looking for some love and approval like MAF.
B. Unlikely, as SK acknowledged that the financial results of employing ex-footballers was terrible.
C. Likely, but if SK thinks employing data-scientist rather footballer leads to success, why sack TK.
D. Very Likely, owning a football club is a cheap hobby that he and his son enjoy for £35m per yr
E. Very Likely, giving son experience directing a football club is the kind of experience his son needs.
Can anyone come up with another reason he'll invest, and/or disagree with any of likehoods?
He's not only an amateur, he's also doing it part time. No other club would have hired him and that pretty much says it all for me. We might do ok with TK as DoF in the Championship where daddy's money can provide him with a significantly larger transfer budget than most competing clubs. But in the PL where we can't compete financially with the bigger clubs we will need to be much more clever in the transfer market and punch above our weight. I can't see that happening with TK in charge.
It doesn't matter, in my book he has done ok this last season, people make a lot of assumptions about how much time he devotes to Fulham, I think you will find it's more than you would imagine. Does anyone really know what exactly any DoF actually does?, would be interested to know.
Quote from: alfie on July 10, 2020, 07:38:04 AM
It doesn't matter, in my book he has done ok this last season, people make a lot of assumptions about how much time he devotes to Fulham, I think you will find it's more than you would imagine. Does anyone really know what exactly any DoF actually does?, would be interested to know.
The
Director of Football's role is similar to any directors role to typically:
i) produce a "five-year strategic plan" to present to the owner (or financier) that delivers a profit over a five year period, get the owner to believe the strategic plan is achievable that the owner approves.
ii) produce a "one-year operation plan" to present to the owner (or financier) detailing the next year's plan include financial investment required that the owner approves and provides funding for.
iii) execute the "one-year operating plan" by spending the money provided and demonstrate that the required results are being achieved to achieve the "five-year strategic plan", such as promotion within the right timeframe and players maintaining value.
Next
iv) if at the end of the first year the "one-year operation plan" is successful, continue the "five-year strategic plan" by detailing the next "one-year operation plan" in keeping with the strategic plan.
or
v) if at the end of the first year the "one-year operation plan" is unsuccessful (whether promotion not achieved, relegation occurred or some players lost value faster than expected) then rewrite the "five-year strategic plan" explain how money was lost but how the next five-year plan will succeed.
or
vi) if at the end of the first year the "one-year operation plan" is unsuccessful (whether promotion not achieved, relegation occurred or some players lost value faster than expected) then the owner sacks the DOF and interview new DOFs to see what their "five-year strategic plan" might require.
TK's PerformanceOut of the five steps, Tony Khan is succeeding at the four most important steps and failing at step three that is to "execute the plan" only. Even at that step, he is still better than a quarter of DOFs (e.g. Stoke). Step three is the least important for the fans because buying the wrong players is probably better than buying no players at all, and some big money signings will succeed.
It is also easy to see that the owner believing in the DOF is the quality that the DOF requires. Academic studies have shown that 76% of a clubs success is related to the owner backing the DOF.
History Notably, in the last 40 years, Fulham has never had a manager or DOF that has successfully achieved its "five-year strategic plan", but the owner has typically believed the next DOF that has a plan that involves a "one-year operational plan" requiring a huge investment now with a five-year profit later.
Owners like Cardiff, Newcastle, Arsenal, ManUtd, Norwich and Sunderland no longer believe DOFs that with "five-year strategic plan" require investment losses in the first year to sustain longer-term success. These clubs instead only let DOFs spend whatever they earn in tv income, players sales and gate receipts; these clubs are horrific for fans when the TV money is not pouring in.
Future If Fulham's owner that follows such breakeven model with the right DOF; it might be successful in 20/21 as we still have TV income up to June 2021; there is a small chance a genius DOF could make it successful in 21/22 using players sales profit to buy cheaper players that are also superior.
But after June 2022, I doubt even a genius DOF can gain this club promotion using player sales profits and gate receipts to buy players. Hence, longer-term the key skill of the DOF is to convince our owner to keep invest money into players until it get us into the premier league.
Appreciate the response, but just for clarification, is your information factually correct or, is it an assumption of what you think.
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 10, 2020, 03:43:04 AM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 09, 2020, 11:01:01 AM
I don't understand the 'he has access to his fathers money' argument. If Khan Sr is only willing to finance us on the basis of his son being in a role, then he would be a very poor owner.
I wonder why you think Shahid Khan would give this club more money. If you cannot answer why he would give the club money in the future with another DOF then maybe you should accept one of the answers below. I personally believe without more money, the best club we can be like is Cardiff.
The options for why SK will continue to give the club money include:
A. he doesn't care about the cash flow, as long as the fans give him some love in return
B. he wants to produce positive cash flow (or sale) and thinks the right ex-footballer can
C. he wants to produce positive cash flow and thinks a data-scientist rather than ex-football can
D. he doesn't care about cash flow, as its an expensive hobby that he and his son can afford
E. he doesn't care about cash flow, as long as his son gains experience for the Khan empire.
What is best for the fans in each option:
A. As MAF just wanted to be loved and complaining worked, Sk will respond to the same methods
B. Convince SK that even through MAF failed using this method, it will work now. Why i don't know?
C. Make SK realize that creating a successful football team with data science is moronic. Sell the Club
D. Convince SK that his expensive hobby would be more enjoyable with his son gone.
E. Convince SK to sack TK, but keep giving Fulham's DOF the money for TK experience.
Likelihood of each option
A. Unlikely, as SK is not some rich English owner looking for some love and approval like MAF.
B. Unlikely, as SK acknowledged that the financial results of employing ex-footballers was terrible.
C. Likely, but if SK thinks employing data-scientist rather footballer leads to success, why sack TK.
D. Very Likely, owning a football club is a cheap hobby that he and his son enjoy for £35m per yr
E. Very Likely, giving son experience directing a football club is the kind of experience his son needs.
Can anyone come up with another reason he'll invest, and/or disagree with any of likehoods?
I'll skip to your final question, because it's more simple than the length of your post implies. Shad Khan should invest in the football club, regardless of whether his son is DoF or not, BECAUSE HE PURCHASED THE FOOTBALL CLUB.
He chose to purchase Fulham FC. He didn't do it as a favour. He therefore takes the responsibilities to properly manage and invest it in, whether his son has a job there or not.
I believe he absolutely would, as shown by his actions prior to Tony. I don't see what hunch people have that he would not.
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 10, 2020, 09:05:23 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 10, 2020, 03:43:04 AM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 09, 2020, 11:01:01 AM
I don't understand the 'he has access to his fathers money' argument. If Khan Sr is only willing to finance us on the basis of his son being in a role, then he would be a very poor owner.
I wonder why you think Shahid Khan would give this club more money. If you cannot answer why he would give the club money in the future with another DOF then maybe you should accept one of the answers below. I personally believe without more money, the best club we can be like is Cardiff.
The options for why SK will continue to give the club money include:
A. he doesn't care about the cash flow, as long as the fans give him some love in return
B. he wants to produce positive cash flow (or sale) and thinks the right ex-footballer can
C. he wants to produce positive cash flow and thinks a data-scientist rather than ex-football can
D. he doesn't care about cash flow, as its an expensive hobby that he and his son can afford
E. he doesn't care about cash flow, as long as his son gains experience for the Khan empire.
What is best for the fans in each option:
A. As MAF just wanted to be loved and complaining worked, Sk will respond to the same methods
B. Convince SK that even through MAF failed using this method, it will work now. Why i don't know?
C. Make SK realize that creating a successful football team with data science is moronic. Sell the Club
D. Convince SK that his expensive hobby would be more enjoyable with his son gone.
E. Convince SK to sack TK, but keep giving Fulham's DOF the money for TK experience.
Likelihood of each option
A. Unlikely, as SK is not some rich English owner looking for some love and approval like MAF.
B. Unlikely, as SK acknowledged that the financial results of employing ex-footballers was terrible.
C. Likely, but if SK thinks employing data-scientist rather footballer leads to success, why sack TK.
D. Very Likely, owning a football club is a cheap hobby that he and his son enjoy for £35m per yr
E. Very Likely, giving son experience directing a football club is the kind of experience his son needs.
Can anyone come up with another reason he'll invest, and/or disagree with any of likehoods?
I'll skip to your final question, because it's more simple than the length of your post implies. Shad Khan should invest in the football club, regardless of whether his son is DoF or not, BECAUSE HE PURCHASED THE FOOTBALL CLUB.
He chose to purchase Fulham FC. He didn't do it as a favour. He therefore takes the responsibilities to properly manage and invest it in, whether his son has a job there or not.
I believe he absolutely would, as shown by his actions prior to Tony. I don't see what hunch people have that he would not.
You may be correct. Clearly, SK is very successful in business but he's not infallible. He bought a premier league club for , allegedly, £200m. You'd think that anyone putting that into an investment would protect that investment - why didn't he?
Quote from: alfie on July 10, 2020, 09:00:11 AM
Appreciate the response, but just for clarification, is your information factually correct or, is it an assumption of what you think.
It's factually correct for "directors of other industries" as I have written such plans for them. I am certain it is true for Toyota's suppliers as it's detailed in the book "The Toyota Way" and as Flex-N-Gate (SK's main business) is a Toyota supplier I expect them to follow such procedures too.
The idea of a "Director of Football" is that football management follows similar standards and processes to directors in other industries. Logically, if the DOF is expect to follow other industries his father most likely expects him to follow the procedures of Flex-N-Gate.
In practice, I don't actually know what actually goes on in the Fulham Boardroom between our owner and DOF, but I don't care as long as Tony Khan gets the money we need for the next season.
What I would say is that any other DOF is highly likely to have to follow the procedure closely. SKs company is a well oiled machine that doesn't accept mistakes, but i doubt the same standard applies to family members.
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 10, 2020, 09:05:23 AM
Quote from: The Rational Fan on July 10, 2020, 03:43:04 AM
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 09, 2020, 11:01:01 AM
I don't understand the 'he has access to his fathers money' argument. If Khan Sr is only willing to finance us on the basis of his son being in a role, then he would be a very poor owner.
I wonder why you think Shahid Khan would give this club more money. If you cannot answer why he would give the club money in the future with another DOF then maybe you should accept one of the answers below. I personally believe without more money, the best club we can be like is Cardiff.
The options for why SK will continue to give the club money include:
A. he doesn't care about the cash flow, as long as the fans give him some love (and respect) in return for doing what is required
What is best for the fans in each option:
A. As MAF just wanted to be loved and complaining worked, Sk will respond to the same methods
Likelihood of each option
A. Unlikely, as SK is not some rich English owner looking for some love and approval like MAF.
Can anyone come up with another reason he'll invest, and/or disagree with any of likehoods?
I'll skip to your final question, because it's more simple than the length of your post implies. Shad Khan should invest in the football club, regardless of whether his son is DoF or not, BECAUSE HE PURCHASED THE FOOTBALL CLUB.
He chose to purchase Fulham FC. He didn't do it as a favour. He therefore takes the responsibilities to properly manage and invest it in, whether his son has a job there or not.
I believe he absolutely would, as shown by his actions prior to Tony. I don't see what hunch people have that he would not.
That is just a version of option A. You think he purchased the football club therefore he should give us money. In other words, he should give Fulham more money otherwise he is a bad person, but only according to Fulham Fans.
And, many of those fans think he is a bad person by employing his son, yet he doesn't seem to care. Mike Ashley doesn't care and he lives in the UK.
While if he sacks Tony Khan, his son will be pissed off at him instead. Assuming, I agree he should fund the club isn't any reason why he actually would do it. The problem remains sack TK is an unknown future.
'A bad person'.
Are we really so beholden to Khan that simply expecting him to fund a football club he purchased - out of choice - is too much?
I would think any business person who purchased any going concern, particularly a community one, who then didn't fund that concern wasn't the best person.
Anyway, as said, I don't think he would purposefully do this, which is the original point. He may be not very good at sports ownership as evidenced by where he started with us to where we are now and the Jaguars record, however I don't believe he would defund us if his son wasn't in role.
Quote from: Southcoastffc on July 10, 2020, 09:18:34 AM
You may be correct. Clearly, SK is very successful in business but he's not infallible. He bought a premier league club for, allegedly, £200m. You'd think that anyone putting that into an investment would protect that investment - why didn't he?
No, I don't think Shahid Khan would put money into Fulham to protect his £200m unless he thought is would produce future cash flow which would be greater than the investment made. Sunderland's and Wigan's owners have faced a similar decision to Shahid Khan and they decided not to invest.
As per above, I maintain there are five possible reasons why he bought into this business and if he invested into it hoping to achieve positive cash flows I really doubt its ever achievable. I personally think he bought Fulham as some kind of hobby to give him satisfaction owning a club, but unlike MAF i don't think he care too much what the fans think about him, but he does cares what his son thinks.
Re the hobby thing - I've wondered this before. Why did he buy the club? Because he's rarely ever here. Can you enjoy the club and not frequently visit? I do agree there's confusing motivations as to why he has us.
Quote from: Dr Quinzel on July 10, 2020, 09:59:21 AM
Re the hobby thing - I've wondered this before. Why did he buy the club? Because he's rarely ever here. Can you enjoy the club and not frequently visit? I do agree there's confusing motivations as to why he has us.
It does remain a mystery why he bought the club, and if he bought it to make money, the moment he gives up on that we will be following Wigan. Of course, I prefer that he keeps investing just to give his son a job than let us follow Wigan.
SK is throwing away a fraction of TK future inheritance to give him a job, what is wrong with that. many parents support their son's stupid business ideas, why should billionaires be any different.
*Gestures to Big Bicep Tony and an oily looking long haired blonde man in his pants*
051
Quote from: AnOldBrownie on July 10, 2020, 02:06:34 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on July 09, 2020, 10:30:56 PM
i look at this way.
If TK had to stand on his own two feet and did not have his dad's money to play with
no other team would even begin to want to employ him
no other team would have even given him an interview for the job
in short he is an amateur and it shows. he does not have the requisite experience and does not really seem to comprehend what is going on around him. his fiction during the interview is what he believes and that is troubling.
I do believe he loves the club and wants what is best but unfortunately he cannot see that what is best is him stepping away from anything to do with team matters.
The idea anyone would emply him other than us is laughable, and that in the end is the fact that makes all the defence of him melt away.
It's also irrelevant. Much more experienced directors of football operations have done much worse than him at their respected clubs, regardless of their experience.
He loves the club and it's doing well.
With all honesty, no disrespect is intended but it is absolutely relevant. The man is totally unsuited to the role and as a result we have underachieved massively based on very poor use of the substantial sums poured into the club and generally the way the managers have first chosen (magath and ranieri) and treated (rene and slav). The fact he would not get a job elsewhere or got a job here with his abilities and lack of experience is fundamental to why we are not still in the prem and/or walking the division this season (or at least playing like a team that should be top of the division rather than one with a very unbalanced squad once again).
The club is not doing well, it is underachieving massively. We went up because slav was a genius. the board wasted fortunes because TK is an amateur and as a result we went straight down and lost a brilliant manager that had no chance from the start. And this season we couldn't even manage to secure the services of a proper and fit center half until january because we focused attention on less important positions.
He is a very nice man, a good supporter and I would like him to reamian at the club but just removed from nything to do with the team itself.
There are indeed many failing managers and DOFs, experience does not guarantee success. However being a total amateur guarantees underachievement. We could have been up there with wolves if the money had been used properly and the squad properly attended to. Slav would have been properly contracted and allowed a chance to do his job properly, and if nothing else he should have stayed for the season and given a proper chance in the prem and not bring the guarantee of failure that was risk free ranieri.
I like Tony
Yes he does not have the experience
But
Enthusiasm of a fan
Honest - admits he makes mistakes ( which will mean that he is learning )
Does not speak in cliches
Trusted and backed with cash by his father
I think Javier Pereira coming in will also help him
Quote from: ALG01 on July 10, 2020, 02:25:14 PM
Quote from: AnOldBrownie on July 10, 2020, 02:06:34 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on July 09, 2020, 10:30:56 PM
i look at this way.
If TK had to stand on his own two feet and did not have his dad's money to play with
no other team would even begin to want to employ him
no other team would have even given him an interview for the job
in short he is an amateur and it shows. he does not have the requisite experience and does not really seem to comprehend what is going on around him. his fiction during the interview is what he believes and that is troubling.
I do believe he loves the club and wants what is best but unfortunately he cannot see that what is best is him stepping away from anything to do with team matters.
The idea anyone would emply him other than us is laughable, and that in the end is the fact that makes all the defence of him melt away.
It's also irrelevant. Much more experienced directors of football operations have done much worse than him at their respected clubs, regardless of their experience.
He loves the club and it's doing well.
With all honesty, no disrespect is intended but it is absolutely relevant. The man is totally unsuited to the role and as a result we have underachieved massively based on very poor use of the substantial sums poured into the club and generally the way the managers have first chosen (magath and ranieri) and treated (rene and slav). The fact he would not get a job elsewhere or got a job here with his abilities and lack of experience is fundamental to why we are not still in the prem and/or walking the division this season (or at least playing like a team that should be top of the division rather than one with a very unbalanced squad once again).
The club is not doing well, it is underachieving massively. We went up because slav was a genius. the board wasted fortunes because TK is an amateur and as a result we went straight down and lost a brilliant manager that had no chance from the start. And this season we couldn't even manage to secure the services of a proper and fit center half until january because we focused attention on less important positions.
He is a very nice man, a good supporter and I would like him to reamian at the club but just removed from nything to do with the team itself.
There are indeed many failing managers and DOFs, experience does not guarantee success. However being a total amateur guarantees underachievement. We could have been up there with wolves if the money had been used properly and the squad properly attended to. Slav would have been properly contracted and allowed a chance to do his job properly, and if nothing else he should have stayed for the season and given a proper chance in the prem and not bring the guarantee of failure that was risk free ranieri.
He is not an amateur anymore though, he has been dealing with football matters a few years now.
Reading what Gordon Davies said as soon as the Wembley game finished they were on the phones trying to secure some deals but clubs were not interested in proposals until the end of the deadline, Gordon made it clear that the Hector deal was all done and dusted but Levy would not sign off until his business was done. These are facts not assumptions. This why I make the point about the arrogance of football supporters believing they are the only ones who know best.
Quote from: ALG01 on July 10, 2020, 02:25:14 PM
Quote from: AnOldBrownie on July 10, 2020, 02:06:34 AM
Quote from: ALG01 on July 09, 2020, 10:30:56 PM
i look at this way.
If TK had to stand on his own two feet and did not have his dad's money to play with
no other team would even begin to want to employ him
no other team would have even given him an interview for the job
in short he is an amateur and it shows. he does not have the requisite experience and does not really seem to comprehend what is going on around him. his fiction during the interview is what he believes and that is troubling.
I do believe he loves the club and wants what is best but unfortunately he cannot see that what is best is him stepping away from anything to do with team matters.
The idea anyone would emply him other than us is laughable, and that in the end is the fact that makes all the defence of him melt away.
It's also irrelevant. Much more experienced directors of football operations have done much worse than him at their respected clubs, regardless of their experience.
He loves the club and it's doing well.
With all honesty, no disrespect is intended but it is absolutely relevant. The man is totally unsuited to the role and as a result we have underachieved massively based on very poor use of the substantial sums poured into the club and generally the way the managers have first chosen (magath and ranieri) and treated (rene and slav). The fact he would not get a job elsewhere or got a job here with his abilities and lack of experience is fundamental to why we are not still in the prem and/or walking the division this season (or at least playing like a team that should be top of the division rather than one with a very unbalanced squad once again).
The club is not doing well, it is underachieving massively. We went up because slav was a genius. the board wasted fortunes because TK is an amateur and as a result we went straight down and lost a brilliant manager that had no chance from the start. And this season we couldn't even manage to secure the services of a proper and fit center half until january because we focused attention on less important positions.
He is a very nice man, a good supporter and I would like him to reamian at the club but just removed from nything to do with the team itself.
There are indeed many failing managers and DOFs, experience does not guarantee success. However being a total amateur guarantees underachievement. We could have been up there with wolves if the money had been used properly and the squad properly attended to. Slav would have been properly contracted and allowed a chance to do his job properly, and if nothing else he should have stayed for the season and given a proper chance in the prem and not bring the guarantee of failure that was risk free ranieri.
Ahh....now I get your disdain for TK.
So Wolves...and I assume Sheffield United are your metric...while you ignore 90% of the other competing squads.
ok...understood. Disagree strongly, but I understand. :wine:
You assume a more experienced DoF at THIS squad would have us top 4 in the Premier League right now with Slav as the manager that got us there. Guess we'll never know.
LOL...and Luton is beating Huddersfield 2 nil. :D
