I know he is very talented and has been an amazing servant to the club, but I like our team better without him (generally). We have more bite, move the ball faster, defend better and have someone wearing the armband who is more captain material. Not a bad guy to bring off the bench if needed.
that's so strange. all game I was thinking our midfield was clueless with no craft or guile. we looked like third rate hacks huffing and puffing and creating so little.
TC remains a thoroughbred and we miss him. he remmains our best player by 100 miles and it showed, even though it was a good win, we surely miss him.
I have said that Cairney hasn't looked good for some time and been shouted down for saying such a thing. But there is no doubt he is a luxury player that could do with the rest while the workhorses in midfield can do the job that is needed.
I think our midfield has grafted without him and looked good
Quote from: ALG01 on July 10, 2020, 11:11:13 PM
that's so strange. all game I was thinking our midfield was clueless with no craft or guile. we looked like third rate hacks huffing and puffing and creating so little.
TC remains a thoroughbred and we miss him. he remmains our best player by 100 miles and it showed, even though it was a good win, we surely miss him.
Pace of play was at a standstill. Surprised that some aren't complaining about how much Hector and Ream played back and forth. Granted, it was the product of a high press from Cardiff's midfielders, but still. This is why when we missed simple, square, passes, it looked like amateur hour. Arter twice, Ream once for example.
StefJo made the biggest difference for me. He just bypasses the high press with beautiful passes. Very direct, even when going backwards. Arter was 2-3 seconds ahead of everyone, but playing in his own world at times.
The Cairney debate will be just that until he can actually defend himself by playing again. The 90 minutes are on FFCTV, replays on ESPN+ for those of in the US, so feel free to look through it - then come back and say whether or not Cairney doesn't make a huge difference, and please provide examples.
Quality player. Can be a game changer. Agree we've been excellent without him but would be better with him.
As I said in the OP, Cairney is really talented and can produce at times. The problem for me is that he is often too slow and deliberate. I also think that he does not have the right personality to be captain. When he is not playing, I think the players who wear the armband do a much better job of playing the captain's role. And I think that is just as important to a team's success as having really talented players on the pitch.
He needs legs around him, someone to do the hard dirty work for him, I see him as a luxury player, not as lazy as Ozil at Arsenal but feel they are similar. With the right players Tom should play week in week out but I think he along with a few others is very replaceable
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Quote from: FulhamKC on July 10, 2020, 11:28:37 PM
As I said in the OP, Cairney is really talented and can produce at times. The problem for me is that he is often too slow and deliberate. I also think that he does not have the right personality to be captain. When he is not playing, I think the players who wear the armband do a much better job of playing the captain's role. And I think that is just as important to a team's success as having really talented players on the pitch.
Have to agree to disagree unfortunately, but I can see how those two points you make are a common finding. Unfortunately, I turn on the match replays, and the only part about him not being a traditional captain is true. Whether that's a positive or negative thing, it only matters to his teammates and manager. He's a player who can keep the ball moving, and can keep possession. He's a grinder as well, considering he was cramping badly against Birmingham City - but still passed the ball about in the final attack that led to our winning goal.
Reed alongside Onomah and Cairney for me ,,,
Saying that Stef Jo looked pure quality when he came on the pitch
To me, it'd be a joy to watch:
Rodak
Christie Hector Ream Bryan
StefJo Reed Cairney
Onomah
Mitro BDR
Having two points of creativity with StefJo and Cairney could do wonders for both BDR or Cav. Unfortunately, I feel Knock's game is too predictable, if not comical at times.
Surely Cairney gets his place back. The Skipper is pure quality. With Reed and Onomah/StefJo/Arter near him he is the anchor of that midfield. Maybe he just needs to send a wordly into the net with his left beg to remind us all how quality he is and how lucky we are to have him. He walks into the starting 11 of ANY team in the Champ and the lower half of the Prem.
To suggest that TC is a luxury player is wrong to me. He creates more than any other of our midfielders, picks more destructive passes and has an eye for goal. Maybe been played slightly out of position by SP and perhaps not been at his very best this season but still a nailed on starter for me.
Quote from: Lighthouse on July 10, 2020, 11:11:42 PM
I have said that Cairney hasn't looked good for some time and been shouted down for saying such a thing. But there is no doubt he is a luxury player that could do with the rest while the workhorses in midfield can do the job that is needed.
Yes I agree, don't expect him to start against West Brom , best leave the midfield to the fighters and destroyers, Arter, Reed , Onomah and Johanson will be competing for the three starting positions but expect Cairney, if fit, to come on after 60 minutes if we are losing.
Cairney's a class player, no doubt about that, but it seems to me that the midfield has been better balanced, and the side more of a team, these last few matches when it's been necessary to grind out fairly ugly results.
TC adds a different dimension to our midfield when playing, especially in the forward position. He moves the ball quickly and very rarely gets caught in possession, he is more aware of what is happening around him than Harry Arter and can pick a pass.
Also he is our second highest scorer so why would you leave him out.
Quote from: Bill2 on July 11, 2020, 03:03:45 PM
TC adds a different dimension to our midfield when playing, especially in the forward position. He moves the ball quickly and very rarely gets caught in possession, he is more aware of what is happening around him than Harry Arter and can pick a pass.
Also he is our second highest scorer so why would you leave him out.
So are people saying we need to play with 4 midfielders? Are you guys sitting Onomah or Reed?
It's great being the most creative player...but if the best scoring opportunities are made by crossing into the box, what else does Tom provide?
I'd sit Tom and Arter...but that is just me.
And Tom is one of my favorite players.
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Would that give and go interaction between Stefjo & Onomah have occurred with Carney on the field?
Carney almost never gets into the box. I think that Carney sometimes has the same effect on the team that Mitro sometimes does and that is both can stifle the rest of the team. It's not that these two need to sit but that they need to involve others more. Of late both Carney and Mitro seem to be phoning it in.
Can i just point out that players don't "sit" they are benched or they are used as subs.
Quote from: YankeeJim on July 11, 2020, 05:47:14 PM
Would that give and go interaction between Stefjo & Onomah have occurred with Carney on the field?
Carney almost never gets into the box. I think that Carney sometimes has the same effect on the team that Mitro sometimes does and that is both can stifle the rest of the team. It's not that these two need to sit but that they need to involve others more. Of late both Carney and Mitro seem to be phoning it in.
No-one can answer that. For one, it was from a throw in, which means we were completely overloaded to the far right side. So disregard base positioning.
The main benefit to that run by Onomah is that he's right footed, and was able to quickly get the shot off. If Cairney was in that position, he'd probably have to take just another touch or two - and chances are he may not shoot, instead set someone up. That's all assumption though - and again, I'll let him defend himself by his play first.
Quote from: Twig on July 11, 2020, 06:20:45 PM
Can i just point out that players don't "sit" they are benched or they are used as subs.
You can, just as I can ignore your correction.
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Quote from: AnOldBrownie on July 11, 2020, 03:43:15 PM
Quote from: Bill2 on July 11, 2020, 03:03:45 PM
TC adds a different dimension to our midfield when playing, especially in the forward position. He moves the ball quickly and very rarely gets caught in possession, he is more aware of what is happening around him than Harry Arter and can pick a pass.
Also he is our second highest scorer so why would you leave him out.
It's great being the most creative player...but if the best scoring opportunities are made by crossing into the box, what else does Tom provide?
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But I don't know if that's true. Statistically crossing yields very low amount of chances.
My concern with Cairney walking right back into the squad is that he's a form player, he always comes back slow and needs a longish run of games before he fully finds his top form again,,,
I'm 100% pro TC absolutely when he's on a roll....
Quote from: Big T on July 12, 2020, 02:33:53 AM
My concern with Cairney walking right back into the squad is that he's a form player, he always comes back slow and needs a longish run of games before he fully finds his top form again,,,
I'm 100% pro TC absolutely when he's on a roll....
This than tells me he has to start - realisticly auto promo is not gonna happen so you need the remaining games for Cairney to find his form and be ready for the playoffs.
Quote from: Jeroen on July 12, 2020, 06:19:23 AM
Quote from: Big T on July 12, 2020, 02:33:53 AM
My concern with Cairney walking right back into the squad is that he's a form player, he always comes back slow and needs a longish run of games before he fully finds his top form again,,,
I'm 100% pro TC absolutely when he's on a roll....
This than tells me he has to start - realisticly auto promo is not gonna happen so you need the remaining games for Cairney to find his form and be ready for the playoffs.
Absolutely
Get him back in the team for the last 3 so he's in form for the play offs,,,
The only time I want to see Cairney come back in is as a sub at Wembley to score the winning goal. Great servant that he is, bringing him as a starter would upset the momentum. The 3 out of Reed, Onomah, Arter & Steff have speeded up our play & given the opposition more than one playmaker to think about. There is no time for sentiment. If Cairney had the workrate , energy & passion of Reed I would have him back.
I am always surprised that people keep on about Cairney lacking workrate, energy and passion (or similar attributes). To me it is as if those people haven't watched him play all season, as it is completely opposite of what I see in him. I can agree that he is not the most reliable midfielder defensively (although not nearly as bad as some seem to believe), but he is definitely not lacking in workrate or passion. That he is also by far our best midfielder in using the ball is also a plus, but that's not all he is. In my opinion that is, and I know that opinions can differ, but this one is extra weird to me.
Also, there were calls for Mitro to be benched after the suspension for the same reasons that some now want to bench Cairney, namely to not upset momentum. And yet, with Mitro in the team we played our best game since the first 60 minutes against Leeds.
Quote from: grandad on July 13, 2020, 10:25:38 AM
The only time I want to see Cairney come back in is as a sub at Wembley to score the winning goal. Great servant that he is, bringing him as a starter would upset the momentum. The 3 out of Reed, Onomah, Arter & Steff have speeded up our play & given the opposition more than one playmaker to think about. There is no time for sentiment. If Cairney had the workrate , energy & passion of Reed I would have him back.
Sorry but if you give him no game time for the next five matches then it is too much to expect him to perform at his peak as a Wembley sub.
Cairney will now need game time in the two games before the play offs.
This is probably going to be an divisive opinion.
I think Stefjo comes back in, after the glimpses he showed recently, especially against Cardiff he genuinely looked incredible, playing outside of the foot passes, intricate touches he just looked as though every time he touched the ball we were going to finally break through the line and get a more deadly chance to score.
TC in my opinion TC has indeed been lacking during the latter parts of this season and I can't quite pin why. Earlier in the season against he was banging them in in and almost copy and paste fashion which by the way as much as I hate being in the Putney end, watching him repeatedly float them into the top left corner each time, best view in the house. I noticed against Leeds, he had one moment on the ball where Kalvin Phillips came through the back of him, stole the ball from him and he lost all confidence for the rest of the game, barely playing a forward pass after that. The Cairney at QPR looked outrageously good, and my favourite moment was when we lost the ball from a corner, TC sprints back shoulders (Unsure who) off the ball making it looks easy, and continued the attack. When TC is fired up he really is the best we have, I'm unsure whether we need to piss him off before each game or what but some days he looks like he's on a mission and reminds me of Wayne Rooney (left footed version), ready to do anything to win.
I think confidence could be to blame but to me it's more than likely Scott Parker. I have never seen someone slow a game down as much as TC does nowadays and I think that's his instructions from Scott, slow the game down so that we aren't caught out in possession as often, the obvious issue here being we score less and overthink our play to such an extent that we stifle ourselves.
Quote from: smallfulhamman on July 13, 2020, 03:26:43 PM
This is probably going to be an divisive opinion.
I think Stefjo comes back in, after the glimpses he showed recently, especially against Cardiff he genuinely looked incredible, playing outside of the foot passes, intricate touches he just looked as though every time he touched the ball we were going to finally break through the line and get a more deadly chance to score.
TC in my opinion TC has indeed been lacking during the latter parts of this season and I can't quite pin why. Earlier in the season against he was banging them in in and almost copy and paste fashion which by the way as much as I hate being in the Putney end, watching him repeatedly float them into the top left corner each time, best view in the house. I noticed against Leeds, he had one moment on the ball where Kalvin Phillips came through the back of him, stole the ball from him and he lost all confidence for the rest of the game, barely playing a forward pass after that. The Cairney at QPR looked outrageously good, and my favourite moment was when we lost the ball from a corner, TC sprints back shoulders (Unsure who) off the ball making it looks easy, and continued the attack. When TC is fired up he really is the best we have, I'm unsure whether we need to piss him off before each game or what but some days he looks like he's on a mission and reminds me of Wayne Rooney (left footed version), ready to do anything to win.
I think confidence could be to blame but to me it's more than likely Scott Parker. I have never seen someone slow a game down as much as TC does nowadays and I think that's his instructions from Scott, slow the game down so that we aren't caught out in possession as often, the obvious issue here being we score less and overthink our play to such an extent that we stifle ourselves.
Think that was a brilliant post. Well thought out and provided examples - something I always ask for personally.
I believe StefJo starts as well. He's my favorite player on the team, and I would love to see him get more playing time. You are right, he can do so much with the ball. He always looks to test the defense. Not sure if you watch, but see him play for Norway on the Right midfield. Talk about inverted supplier lol.
Regarding TC, I would agree that Parker is an area concern for his game. However, for the team we have, the system our players have learned, TC seems to be instrumental. I believe our wingers lack of production is felt all through the team and supporters. TC is the second in goal scoring - and that stat is often ignored. The same went for StefJo in our promotion season as well. People just could care less that he was the leader in our assists - I'm sure Mitro didn't forget.
For me, TC's positioning has been game-by-game because Parker adapts his tactics to the opponent. The QPR match was brilliant because TC was all over the pitch, and even in the box on more than once. He made some darting runs that I haven't ever seen from him. I agree he needs to shoot much more. He tries to find the key passes too often, which is what a lot of our team dynamic composes of lately in the attacking third.
I don't think it's a matter of confidence at all. I think, honestly, people make such a big deal of results that it clouds their perception of how the results came about. It's too binary, this isn't programming:
if (player = Tom Cairney)
isPlaying = false;
Fulham = Win
Yet, that is exactly how a lot like to envision their narrative to come true. Just because someone doesn't play, doesn't automatically mean we win, and just because we win, doesn't mean that player shouldn't play. As a football coach myself, it is much more in-depth than that.
To me, these matches without TC have merely confirmed that Parker's system works and that we have a squad depth that understands their roles when called upon. Certain players are emerging, which gives Parker good headaches as he now needs to decide what is going to be best for the team vs WBA.
Quote from: AnOldBrownie on July 11, 2020, 07:42:38 PM
Quote from: Twig on July 11, 2020, 06:20:45 PM
Can i just point out that players don't "sit" they are benched or they are used as subs.
You can, just as I can ignore your correction.
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Absolutely, please feel free to continue to use incorrect terminology.
:plus one:
Quote from: Sting of the North on July 13, 2020, 10:34:05 AM
I am always surprised that people keep on about Cairney lacking workrate, energy and passion (or similar attributes). To me it is as if those people haven't watched him play all season, as it is completely opposite of what I see in him. I can agree that he is not the most reliable midfielder defensively (although not nearly as bad as some seem to believe), but he is definitely not lacking in workrate or passion. That he is also by far our best midfielder in using the ball is also a plus, but that's not all he is. In my opinion that is, and I know that opinions can differ, but this one is extra weird to me.
Also, there were calls for Mitro to be benched after the suspension for the same reasons that some now want to bench Cairney, namely to not upset momentum. And yet, with Mitro in the team we played our best game since the first 60 minutes against Leeds.
:plus one: totally agree
Cairney is a great player that just doesn't seem to run 90 minutes per game. Given squad depth, there is no reason for Cairney to play 90 minutes, so all I want to know is "how many minutes can Cairney chase the ball for?" Then, we need to find a way Cairney is on the field for that exact number of minutes.
One suggestion is to start with Arter to keep it tight. If after 30 minutes we haven't scored then bring on Cairney for say 55 minutes (play 15 minutes, then break, then another 22 minutes, break and maybe 13 more minutes). If we get ahead then to give Stefjo (or KMac) the job of closing out the game with either another goal or a tight defense.
