I'm working on something regarding signings (Hot Topic) but thought I would share this list of players signed since first relegtion.
If I missed someone let me know.
No comment needed on some of these
(https://i.ibb.co/ssgdQvD/FFC5.jpg)
Some of them were loans.
Quote from: rebel on September 30, 2020, 11:59:50 AM
Some of them were loans.
And your point? They still signed a bit of paper.
Quote from: MJG on September 30, 2020, 12:01:05 PM
Quote from: rebel on September 30, 2020, 11:59:50 AM
Some of them were loans.
And your point? They still signed a bit of paper.
Yes, they signed a bit of paper, played then left, so what's are you asking us to discuss? Is it just info? What is the context?
Mr rebel, why are you having a go? Interesting numbers. I wonder how this compares with other teams. Could explain why the team is in a bit of a mess but having said that, very successful last season.
Quote from: rebel on September 30, 2020, 12:04:23 PM
Quote from: MJG on September 30, 2020, 12:01:05 PM
Quote from: rebel on September 30, 2020, 11:59:50 AM
Some of them were loans.
And your point? They still signed a bit of paper.
Yes, they signed a bit of paper, played then left, so what's are you asking us to discuss? Is it just info? What is the context?
Just thought it would be of interest on a discussion forum. if people dont want to discuss anything on it they will leave it be and it will fall off the page. No issues either way.
"Where are they now" is a fun game to play to see whether there's any indication the many players who disappointed were actually good recruits whom we merely didn't get the best out of.
Cyriac, for instance, most recently played in the Turkish second division.
Rohan Ince appears to be a free agent at 27 after appearing 9 times for Cheltenham last year.
Mollo signed for Panathanaikos but was loaned out to a bad Ligue 2 club last year.
Luke Garbutt is a firmly-established League One footballer.
Our first stats-based signing Sakari Mattila is back in Finland via Denmark and Norway.
For me, where we really have neglected is up top. Someone that offers something different to Mitro with real pedigree that can push Mitro.
Quote from: jarv on September 30, 2020, 12:09:26 PM
Mr rebel, why are you having a go? Interesting numbers. I wonder how this compares with other teams. Could explain why the team is in a bit of a mess but having said that, very successful last season.
I'm not have a go, so don't talk nonsense. I'd like to know what the thread / post is about? The seasons / dates might be helpful.
Someone should sent this to Tony Khan and Ali Macintosh and ask their thoughts on why so many seem to have failed.
Would love to get a view of how many of these were sold for a loss or ended up playing in a lower league post Fulham... imagining it would be 80%+. Can only see a handful of players who were poached by bigger clubs.
Martell Taylor-Crossdale - Chelsea
GK - Joe Lewis - Loan from Cardiff
thanks interesting i'd forgotten some of those names
where are they now Ross McContract in the national league at Aldershot is probably biggest fall from grace
I can't see a good centre back on the list.
Quote from: Dougie on September 30, 2020, 12:13:38 PM
"Where are they now" is a fun game to play to see whether there's any indication the many players who disappointed were actually good recruits whom we merely didn't get the best out of.
Cyriac, for instance, most recently played in the Turkish second division.
Rohan Ince appears to be a free agent at 27 after appearing 9 times for Cheltenham last year.
Mollo signed for Panathanaikos but was loaned out to a bad Ligue 2 club last year.
Luke Garbutt is a firmly-established League One footballer.
Our first stats-based signing Sakari Mattila is back in Finland via Denmark and Norway.
Where's the star turn Fothringham now?
Quote from: 70sPimlico on September 30, 2020, 12:17:28 PM
For me, where we really have neglected is up top. Someone that offers something different to Mitro with real pedigree that can push Mitro.
100% agree. It ois obvious we are lacking at the front. I love mitro but it is all a bit predictable.
Personally i have always pefered two up top working as a partnership, it may be out of fashion, but it doesn't make it wrong and if we pusshed somebody along side Mitro i think it wouule do us some good, my instinct would be bobby Reid playing as an out and out strike partner, not sitting deep.
Crude inspection suggests we have struggled to find GKs, CBs, and Strikers than in other areas (which seem closer to what should be realistically expected), and that is not taking longevity of position into account (e.g. a good goalkeeper can go on a lot longer than players in other positions). Be interesting to see a comparison with turnover in clubs elsewhere.
This thread is getting interesting good work MJG
Quote from: fulhamfever on September 30, 2020, 12:23:25 PM
Martell Taylor-Crossdale - Chelsea
GK - Joe Lewis - Loan from Cardiff
Thanks
Its appalling really but until it is compared to other clubs it is dangerous to draw too many conclusions. There are names there that I barely remember at all
Who the hell is archer and lee
Quote from: toshes mate on September 30, 2020, 12:37:04 PM
Crude inspection suggests we have struggled to find GKs, CBs, and Strikers than in other areas (which seem closer to what should be realistically expected), and that is not taking longevity of position into account (e.g. a good goalkeeper can go on a lot longer than players in other positions). Be interesting to see a comparison with turnover in clubs elsewhere.
Give me a team to compare against and i'll give it a shot.
Think you've missed the Fotheringham we never got to see play: midfielder Dino Fazlic
It's a very interesting list and on first glance the quality does not seem great. How many of these players have gone onto have glorious careers such as Saha or others in the past. I guess the truth is that many if not most players that move about are journeymen and the really good ones tend to stick with one club longer. Cairney and Mitro have been very good players for us as are still around for instance. The turn over of players in the modern game is huge and with Fulham being somewhat of a yo-yo club in the Khan era this I guess is unsurprising. Anguissa is an interesting signing, cost of lot of money for potential and could still become a very good investment. It's a big risk though, the Brentford model is probably one of the most successful in terms of buying and selling at a profit. They use 100% stats I think !
Ok this is not perfect but uses all the same data so is a fair comparrison.
Transfermarket says we have signed 98 players over that period, a lot higher than many others, close to teh same for Leeds tho
This is across all age ranges
(https://i.ibb.co/hHW2SS5/ffc7.jpg)
This is the 23-30 age range
(https://i.ibb.co/6wsNMg3/23-30.jpg)
Good info. Was just figuring out how many of these actually are of premier league / championship quality. Appears it takes several signings to get a decent player in. Thats the chances of getting in a decent defender very slim.
Quote from: MJG on September 30, 2020, 12:55:58 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on September 30, 2020, 12:37:04 PM
Crude inspection suggests we have struggled to find GKs, CBs, and Strikers than in other areas (which seem closer to what should be realistically expected), and that is not taking longevity of position into account (e.g. a good goalkeeper can go on a lot longer than players in other positions). Be interesting to see a comparison with turnover in clubs elsewhere.
Give me a team to compare against and i'll give it a shot.
How about Wolves?
Quote from: toshes mate on September 30, 2020, 01:14:04 PM
Quote from: MJG on September 30, 2020, 12:55:58 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on September 30, 2020, 12:37:04 PM
Crude inspection suggests we have struggled to find GKs, CBs, and Strikers than in other areas (which seem closer to what should be realistically expected), and that is not taking longevity of position into account (e.g. a good goalkeeper can go on a lot longer than players in other positions). Be interesting to see a comparison with turnover in clubs elsewhere.
Give me a team to compare against and i'll give it a shot.
How about Wolves?
(https://i.ibb.co/wLMZ5Fb/wolves.jpg)
In fairness you'd expect a yo-yo club like us (thanks Tony!) to have a high player turnover, given the need to get the wages down after each relegation and bring in more talent after each promotion
The data is interesting but I'm not sure any significant conclusions can be drawn just from the list itself
Only thing I will say is it sure feels like we've signed a lot more wingers than that, although I'd probably class 4-5 of those in the striker column as wingers
Quote from: MJG on September 30, 2020, 01:18:13 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on September 30, 2020, 01:14:04 PM
Quote from: MJG on September 30, 2020, 12:55:58 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on September 30, 2020, 12:37:04 PM
Crude inspection suggests we have struggled to find GKs, CBs, and Strikers than in other areas (which seem closer to what should be realistically expected), and that is not taking longevity of position into account (e.g. a good goalkeeper can go on a lot longer than players in other positions). Be interesting to see a comparison with turnover in clubs elsewhere.
Give me a team to compare against and i'll give it a shot.
How about Wolves?
(https://i.ibb.co/wLMZ5Fb/wolves.jpg)
So Wolves go with youth and experience and we tend to go with experience. Does that suggest our over use of statistics as compared to underuse of scouting I wonder, or is it down to who knows who in the world of football and if your DoF has a prior formidable network of contacts/friends/acquaintances/trusted scouts, dealers or agents then they'll automatically know who they need to talk to when in need? Or is the period under inspection one where we have had way more management changes than the average?
Quote from: MJG on September 30, 2020, 12:55:58 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on September 30, 2020, 12:37:04 PM
Crude inspection suggests we have struggled to find GKs, CBs, and Strikers than in other areas (which seem closer to what should be realistically expected), and that is not taking longevity of position into account (e.g. a good goalkeeper can go on a lot longer than players in other positions). Be interesting to see a comparison with turnover in clubs elsewhere.
Give me a team to compare against and i'll give it a shot.
I think ours looks fairly normal. On the basis of those charts, spend wise, we're similar to Watford, Bournemouth, West Brom, Middlesborough.
I do wonder if TK thinks lots of numbers are needed due to the size of NFL teams!
Quote from: toshes mate on September 30, 2020, 01:30:45 PM
Quote from: MJG on September 30, 2020, 01:18:13 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on September 30, 2020, 01:14:04 PM
Quote from: MJG on September 30, 2020, 12:55:58 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on September 30, 2020, 12:37:04 PM
Crude inspection suggests we have struggled to find GKs, CBs, and Strikers than in other areas (which seem closer to wha +t should be realistically expected), and that is not taking longevity of position into account (e.g. a good goalkeeper can go on a lot longer than players in other positions). Be interesting to see a comparison with turnover in clubs elsewhere.
Give me a team to compare against and i'll give it a shot.
How about Wolves?
(https://i.ibb.co/wLMZ5Fb/wolves.jpg)
So Wolves go with youth and experience and we tend to go with experience. Does that suggest our over use of statistics as compared to underuse of scouting I wonder, or is it down to who knows who in the world of football and if your DoF has a prior formidable network of contacts/friends/acquaintances/trusted scouts, dealers or agents then they'll automatically know who they need to talk to when in need? Or is the period under inspection one where we have had way more management changes than the average?
Your comments have me thinking about the Riggs days, was he an exe agent, I know he had lot of agent contacts and suspect that was why we had him as DOF. Did he do better than Tony Khan ? I don't think he did but correct me if I am wrong.
Quote from: toshes mate on September 30, 2020, 01:30:45 PM
Quote from: MJG on September 30, 2020, 01:18:13 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on September 30, 2020, 01:14:04 PM
Quote from: MJG on September 30, 2020, 12:55:58 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on September 30, 2020, 12:37:04 PM
Crude inspection suggests we have struggled to find GKs, CBs, and Strikers than in other areas (which seem closer to what should be realistically expected), and that is not taking longevity of position into account (e.g. a good goalkeeper can go on a lot longer than players in other positions). Be interesting to see a comparison with turnover in clubs elsewhere.
Give me a team to compare against and i'll give it a shot.
How about Wolves?
(https://i.ibb.co/wLMZ5Fb/wolves.jpg)
So Wolves go with youth and experience and we tend to go with experience. Does that suggest our over use of statistics as compared to underuse of scouting I wonder, or is it down to who knows who in the world of football and if your DoF has a prior formidable network of contacts/friends/acquaintances/trusted scouts, dealers or agents then they'll automatically know who they need to talk to when in need? Or is the period under inspection one where we have had way more management changes than the average?
all good points, you could drill down and mix the data up based on how many mangers you had, owners etc. Promotions relegations and everything else. No perfect set of data.
My conclusion we have thrown an awful lot of crap at the wall to hope some would stick.
Also on the age point, maybe the gamble is on on those who have failed elsewhere and need a kick-start.
This is what Khan Snr said about Mike Rigg at his appointment:
"'Based on my experience over the past 17 months and through the most recent managerial search (Symons), it became clear to me that the new Fulham manager - in fact, the entire football operation - would benefit from someone whose sole responsibility was to focus on the short, mid and long-term product on the pitch." And so he obviously believed Rigg was a multi-tasker having worked for the FA and may have been tipped the name by someone involved in the recruitment panel which led to Symons being appointed.
Of course the Symons era wasn't the success Khan wanted and Jokanovic's immediate impact didn't inspire confidence either but it's hard to distinguish what went wrong when owners keeps changing the deck of cards. Given Rigg was cleared out PDQ once the two clowns, T&C, took over recruitment thus becoming the whole darned operation it is hard to say whether he was good, bad, or indifferent. But was Khan Snr's head turned by Symons's failure into believing Rigg's wasn't the guy for FFC after all and his son was?
Quote from: MJG on September 30, 2020, 01:57:27 PM
My conclusion we have thrown an awful lot of crap at the wall to hope some would stick.
Also on the age point, maybe the gamble is on on those who have failed elsewhere and need a kick-start.
I hadn't thought about the kick-start but that is a very interesting angle which would justify use of longer term stats. I certainly agree that is has taken an awful lot of crap thrown at the same wall to get us where we are and I sometimes wonder how any of it has stuck.
Quote from: toshes mate on September 30, 2020, 02:03:57 PM
This is what Khan Snr said about Mike Rigg at his appointment:
"'Based on my experience over the past 17 months and through the most recent managerial search (Symons), it became clear to me that the new Fulham manager - in fact, the entire football operation - would benefit from someone whose sole responsibility was to focus on the short, mid and long-term product on the pitch." And so he obviously believed Rigg was a multi-tasker having worked for the FA and may have been tipped the name by someone involved in the recruitment panel which led to Symons being appointed.
Of course the Symons era wasn't the success Khan wanted and Jokanovic's immediate impact didn't inspire confidence either but it's hard to distinguish what went wrong when owners keeps changing the deck of cards. Given Rigg was cleared out PDQ once the two clowns, T&C, took over recruitment thus becoming the whole darned operation it is hard to say whether he was good, bad, or indifferent. But was Khan Snr's head turned by Symons's failure into believing Rigg's wasn't the guy for FFC after all and his son was?
must admit the whole 'we need a football man' is trash really.
What does that even mean?
Even if someone has played dowsnt mean they know Jack about scouting a player. Rigg had the contacts but for whatever reason they still failed in the long run. I see people say Murphy....the guy has not coached anywhere, why do we think he could run the dept and do any better.
A whole load of luck is required in signing pkayers and its been debated on here a million times. Your very lucky if 50% work out in the long run.
My issue with TK now is the jobs he has cant work in running the club. He either steps away from every else and gives it his full 100% attention comes over here full time or gives it to someone else.
Quote from: MJG on September 30, 2020, 02:13:18 PM
Quote from: toshes mate on September 30, 2020, 02:03:57 PM
This is what Khan Snr said about Mike Rigg at his appointment:
"'Based on my experience over the past 17 months and through the most recent managerial search (Symons), it became clear to me that the new Fulham manager - in fact, the entire football operation - would benefit from someone whose sole responsibility was to focus on the short, mid and long-term product on the pitch." And so he obviously believed Rigg was a multi-tasker having worked for the FA and may have been tipped the name by someone involved in the recruitment panel which led to Symons being appointed.
Of course the Symons era wasn't the success Khan wanted and Jokanovic's immediate impact didn't inspire confidence either but it's hard to distinguish what went wrong when owners keeps changing the deck of cards. Given Rigg was cleared out PDQ once the two clowns, T&C, took over recruitment thus becoming the whole darned operation it is hard to say whether he was good, bad, or indifferent. But was Khan Snr's head turned by Symons's failure into believing Rigg's wasn't the guy for FFC after all and his son was?
must admit the whole 'we need a football man' is trash really.
What does that even mean?
Even if someone has played dowsnt mean they know Jack about scouting a player. Rigg had the contacts but for whatever reason they still failed in the long run. I see people say Murphy....the guy has not coached anywhere, why do we think he could run the dept and do any better.
A whole load of luck is required in signing pkayers and its been debated on here a million times. Your very lucky if 50% work out in the long run.
My issue with TK now is the jobs he has cant work in running the club. He either steps away from every else and gives it his full 100% attention comes over here full time or gives it to someone else.
That certainly would fit Khan Snr's requirement as in the words 'sole responsibility short, mid and long term'.
The numbers over just a few seasons are staggering and the fact that there have been so few players successful suggests something is wrong. Surely these stats should make TK aware that to continue with a Stats based recruitment system is not going to bring success.
88 now
Genuinely forgot the existence of Yohan Mollo until this reminded me
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on September 30, 2020, 03:36:26 PM
Genuinely forgot the existence of Yohan Mollo until this reminded me
A certain ex assistant DOF believed the team should be built around him.
Quote from: Penfold on September 30, 2020, 08:23:49 PM
Quote from: Neutral Zone Ultra on September 30, 2020, 03:36:26 PM
Genuinely forgot the existence of Yohan Mollo until this reminded me
A certain ex assistant DOF believed the team should be built around him.
I was thinking of Bollo, he clearly made an impression.
Thanks for pulling together Mike, interesting stuff.
If you apply a couple of fairly basic acid tests - did they make a name for themselves here, and / or where are they now - the list makes for quite depressing reading and highlights a failing in our recruitment policy, or because a few big clubs hoover everything up then for the others it's a bit hit and miss anyway and it's no different for other clubs.
There are so many things you could use this list with. We did a team of players with accolades such as player of the season at their former clubs who went on to be pants for us. Another list is of players who made us laugh and not because they were good at telling jokes.