I'm not sure it does.
We looked completely swamped in midfield today with Reed and Anguissa run rings around. One of the downsides is I don't think this formation brings out the best in Anguissa - it shackles him and doesn't allow him to go on his marauding runs.
Perhaps we should believe in our defenders - the two CB pairing know what they're doing, put another one in midfield - maybe bringing loftus cheek to the top of the 3 and encourage him to take the ball and run with it allowing Mitro to be the less mobile CF as he'll have a runner off him with the two wide players.
I just think we need to be more dynamic. Cav is completely useless and if he's not contributing with goals or assists then there isn't anypoint having him there.
Thoughts?
Think our back 5 is not the same without Robinson. Robinson and Tete overlapping down the wings is vital otherwise like you say we end up outnumbered further up the pitch.
It's an interesting point.
Perhaps against the teams in and around us? Eg Brighton? Go back to a 4-3-3?
It works well I think
It works ok against the bigger teams that like to attack. It doesn't work against everyone else though. And we don't need it either. Tosin and Anderson are good enough to not need the extra man in their.
Yes it does. If we played a back four we'd have been out numbered by their 4 attacking players.
Quote from: fulhamben on January 20, 2021, 10:25:34 PM
It works ok against the bigger teams that like to attack. It doesn't work against everyone else though. And we don't need it either. Tosin and Anderson are good enough to not need the extra man in their.
I agree SP needs to be a bit flexible about how he sets us up. It will be interesting to see whether there are any changes in the next two or three games.
Anguissa has gone on plenty of runs in this formation. He even had a chance to shoot against Chelsea (right before Robinson was sent off) and tried to dribble all the way into the box. The Cav mis-dribble in United's box tonight was also from Anguissa's runs.
Think the formation and tactics are spot on. It's the personnel, specifically Cav, that needs a significant upgrade.
Quote from: Matt10 on January 20, 2021, 10:55:03 PM
Anguissa has gone on plenty of runs in this formation. He even had a chance to shoot against Chelsea (right before Robinson was sent off) and tried to dribble all the way into the box. The Cav mis-dribble in United's box tonight was also from Anguissa's runs.
Think the formation and tactics are spot on. It's the personnel, specifically Cav, that needs a significant upgrade.
but that's tonight. In the games against the saints and Brighton where they didn't attack in numbers we were toothless. It's got to be horses for courses.
Quote from: fulhamben on January 20, 2021, 10:56:40 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on January 20, 2021, 10:55:03 PM
Anguissa has gone on plenty of runs in this formation. He even had a chance to shoot against Chelsea (right before Robinson was sent off) and tried to dribble all the way into the box. The Cav mis-dribble in United's box tonight was also from Anguissa's runs.
Think the formation and tactics are spot on. It's the personnel, specifically Cav, that needs a significant upgrade.
but that's tonight. In the games against the saints and Brighton where they didn't attack in numbers we were toothless. It's got to be horses for courses.
In my opinion we were toothless because of our players, not our formation. I see no need to change a formation that works, there is plenty of opportunity to attack a lot with this formation.
Yes the back five works well, but we have to be flexible, and there are times we have to improvise with a back four when it comes to playing certain teams.
But either formation we are missing a striker which will make a difference.
With this formation our #6 is Anderson, #8 is Reed, #10 is Anguissa, #9 is Cav, #7 is RLC, #11 is Lookman and our wing backs are really just full backs.
To score, we need a team with Reed #6, Anguissa #8 and Mitrovic #9. Parker needs to work out how to play the team that can score and still keep clean sheets. Fortunately, if we get ahead Parker probably knows how to stay ahead against bottom half teams.
Quote from: Sting of the North on January 20, 2021, 11:00:38 PM
Quote from: fulhamben on January 20, 2021, 10:56:40 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on January 20, 2021, 10:55:03 PM
Anguissa has gone on plenty of runs in this formation. He even had a chance to shoot against Chelsea (right before Robinson was sent off) and tried to dribble all the way into the box. The Cav mis-dribble in United's box tonight was also from Anguissa's runs.
Think the formation and tactics are spot on. It's the personnel, specifically Cav, that needs a significant upgrade.
but that's tonight. In the games against the saints and Brighton where they didn't attack in numbers we were toothless. It's got to be horses for courses.
In my opinion we were toothless because of our players, not our formation. I see no need to change a formation that works, there is plenty of opportunity to attack a lot with this formation.
does it work, yes it makes us harder to beat, but we can't win games. We don't really look like winning games either. It works well if you don't want to lose imo,not so great for trying to get the 3 points.
Quote from: Sting of the North on January 20, 2021, 11:00:38 PM
Quote from: fulhamben on January 20, 2021, 10:56:40 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on January 20, 2021, 10:55:03 PM
Anguissa has gone on plenty of runs in this formation. He even had a chance to shoot against Chelsea (right before Robinson was sent off) and tried to dribble all the way into the box. The Cav mis-dribble in United's box tonight was also from Anguissa's runs.
Think the formation and tactics are spot on. It's the personnel, specifically Cav, that needs a significant upgrade.
but that's tonight. In the games against the saints and Brighton where they didn't attack in numbers we were toothless. It's got to be horses for courses.
In my opinion we were toothless because of our players, not our formation. I see no need to change a formation that works, there is plenty of opportunity to attack a lot with this formation.
If the formation doesn't work with the players we have, it isn't much good is it?
Quote from: fulhamben on January 20, 2021, 11:05:40 PM
Quote from: Sting of the North on January 20, 2021, 11:00:38 PM
Quote from: fulhamben on January 20, 2021, 10:56:40 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on January 20, 2021, 10:55:03 PM
Anguissa has gone on plenty of runs in this formation. He even had a chance to shoot against Chelsea (right before Robinson was sent off) and tried to dribble all the way into the box. The Cav mis-dribble in United's box tonight was also from Anguissa's runs.
Think the formation and tactics are spot on. It's the personnel, specifically Cav, that needs a significant upgrade.
but that's tonight. In the games against the saints and Brighton where they didn't attack in numbers we were toothless. It's got to be horses for courses.
In my opinion we were toothless because of our players, not our formation. I see no need to change a formation that works, there is plenty of opportunity to attack a lot with this formation.
does it work, yes it makes us harder to beat, but we can't win games. We don't really look like winning games either. It works well if you don't want to lose imo,not so great for trying to get the 3 points.
Agree with this post. It's easy to forget we have come off the back of a run of 9 really difficult fixtures (only Newcastle and Brighton in bottom half). Will be interesting to see what Parker opts to do now we have some more winnable fixtures.
What this side is made of will be measured by the huge games coming up rest of Jan and through Feb
Quote from: Tabby on January 20, 2021, 11:08:13 PM
Quote from: Sting of the North on January 20, 2021, 11:00:38 PM
Quote from: fulhamben on January 20, 2021, 10:56:40 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on January 20, 2021, 10:55:03 PM
Anguissa has gone on plenty of runs in this formation. He even had a chance to shoot against Chelsea (right before Robinson was sent off) and tried to dribble all the way into the box. The Cav mis-dribble in United's box tonight was also from Anguissa's runs.
Think the formation and tactics are spot on. It's the personnel, specifically Cav, that needs a significant upgrade.
but that's tonight. In the games against the saints and Brighton where they didn't attack in numbers we were toothless. It's got to be horses for courses.
In my opinion we were toothless because of our players, not our formation. I see no need to change a formation that works, there is plenty of opportunity to attack a lot with this formation.
If the formation doesn't work with the players we have, it isn't much good is it?
It is of course possible to change some of the players without switching formation. It could for example be done because of the opposition... people are too fixated with formations any way in my opinion, it is just numbers on a paper but similar numbers can look totally different on the field depending on what players you use and what actions those players take. I still believe it is to our advantage to keep our general shape and positions now that most players look comfortable in their roles.
I don't think it is necessarily the back 5 that is the problem, and it has worked very well against the better teams.
The problem is when you're playing the back 5 with the 3 forwards, it can leave the midfield really overrun. Parker's attacking tactics last year with the 4-3-3/4-5-1 was still similarly about getting the wide forwards into 1 on 1s and overloads, and deep crosses, so it is the same here. But you do really sacrifice that extra passing option through the middle which means it can be very hard to retain possession.
If we're keeping the back 5 against 'weaker' sides, I'd revert more to a 5-3-2, and really challenge the WBs to do more going forward.
Something like:
Areola
Aina Anderson Aderebaiyo
BDR Lemina Anguissa Bryan
RLC
Mitrovic Lookman
Its all a play on numbers . 343 and 532 is the same formation depending on whether we are in or out of possession.
Yes, the formation is flexible.
WE needed to be a lot harder to beat, but this is mainly due to our changes in personnel.
We are creating enough chances to get something in games, but just aren't putting them away.
Great performances last night and against Chelsea, but the fact is, we lost both games, unfortunately.
The team that started this season would have got hammered in both games, and v Liverpool and Leicester, but we desperately need to put the ball in the net and get points on the board, which I'm sure the manager and players are well aware of.
We mustn't panic though, just keep playing the way we are, and hopefully putting chances away - hopefully with a new striker up front.
Maybe Mitro will return to save us again.
Parker picked the 5 to stop the goals leaking and probably also due to the big upcoming games. I recommend n for the more winnable matches we will have 4 for a longer period. As at the end of the man u it showed we can do it
Yes it does, its how you deploy the other 5 and 2 wing backs thats key.
It's definitely working as far as not conceding is concerned. The formation is fine. I think the issue is more about personnel, particularly the forwards. Recruit into weak areas, utilise Mitro, replace Cavaleiro and I'd be confident about scoring goals and climbing the table.
I thought we were surprisingly effective against United last night, and although there was occasional sloppiness, Anguissa had a better game than he did last weekend. Our biggest problem is taking chances when they occur and whether tinkering to be more lethal in attack might upset the resilience of our defence. However, I think we are turning the corner from being pipped at the post in games to being a team who more often wins than it doesn't. I am expecting regular wins to appear over the next handful of games.
I much prefer to see us playing 4-4-2 or something similar but this five at the back set up has worked, given us a few clean sheets and made us hard to beat. Lets not tinker with it now and go into trial mode for critical games at West Brom and Brighton. It has to be more of the same until we are mid table at least.
Quote from: fulhamben on January 20, 2021, 10:56:40 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on January 20, 2021, 10:55:03 PM
Anguissa has gone on plenty of runs in this formation. He even had a chance to shoot against Chelsea (right before Robinson was sent off) and tried to dribble all the way into the box. The Cav mis-dribble in United's box tonight was also from Anguissa's runs.
Think the formation and tactics are spot on. It's the personnel, specifically Cav, that needs a significant upgrade.
but that's tonight. In the games against the saints and Brighton where they didn't attack in numbers we were toothless. It's got to be horses for courses.
Whether it's a 3 or 5 back, it doesn't matter, it interchanges. We use our RCB, Aina, that covers someone like a number 9 - such as when we played against Leicester, basically trapping Maddison from getting advanced.
I agree, it's game-by-game and whatever demand. A better example would be the likes of our match against Newcastle, where we set up in a 3-4-2-1, with Mitro up front. Swap in RLC or BDR for Cairney - and we're in good shape. Not only did the creativity come from Anguissa, but also from Lemina.
The important takeaway is that the quality starting lineup does not include Cav. We simply do not have the threshold any longer to wish for him to come into his own.
Quote from: Matt10 on January 21, 2021, 07:27:30 PM
Quote from: fulhamben on January 20, 2021, 10:56:40 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on January 20, 2021, 10:55:03 PM
Anguissa has gone on plenty of runs in this formation. He even had a chance to shoot against Chelsea (right before Robinson was sent off) and tried to dribble all the way into the box. The Cav mis-dribble in United's box tonight was also from Anguissa's runs.
Think the formation and tactics are spot on. It's the personnel, specifically Cav, that needs a significant upgrade.
but that's tonight. In the games against the saints and Brighton where they didn't attack in numbers we were toothless. It's got to be horses for courses.
Whether it's a 3 or 5 back, it doesn't matter, it interchanges. We use our RCB, Aina, that covers someone like a number 9 - such as when we played against Leicester, basically trapping Maddison from getting advanced.
I agree, it's game-by-game and whatever demand. A better example would be the likes of our match against Newcastle, where we set up in a 3-4-2-1, with Mitro up front. Swap in RLC or BDR for Cairney - and we're in good shape. Not only did the creativity come from Anguissa, but also from Lemina.
The important takeaway is that the quality starting lineup does not include Cav. We simply do not have the threshold any longer to wish for him to come into his own.
3 or 5 is still too negative for my liking. tosin and anderson are one of the best pairings we've had in a long time. they are good enough imo to not need an extra defender in there with them
I think the 3-4-3 only looks lightweight in midfield with no Lemina. He offers a physical presence Reed can't
Quote from: fulhamben on January 21, 2021, 07:42:03 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on January 21, 2021, 07:27:30 PM
Quote from: fulhamben on January 20, 2021, 10:56:40 PM
Quote from: Matt10 on January 20, 2021, 10:55:03 PM
Anguissa has gone on plenty of runs in this formation. He even had a chance to shoot against Chelsea (right before Robinson was sent off) and tried to dribble all the way into the box. The Cav mis-dribble in United's box tonight was also from Anguissa's runs.
Think the formation and tactics are spot on. It's the personnel, specifically Cav, that needs a significant upgrade.
but that's tonight. In the games against the saints and Brighton where they didn't attack in numbers we were toothless. It's got to be horses for courses.
Whether it's a 3 or 5 back, it doesn't matter, it interchanges. We use our RCB, Aina, that covers someone like a number 9 - such as when we played against Leicester, basically trapping Maddison from getting advanced.
I agree, it's game-by-game and whatever demand. A better example would be the likes of our match against Newcastle, where we set up in a 3-4-2-1, with Mitro up front. Swap in RLC or BDR for Cairney - and we're in good shape. Not only did the creativity come from Anguissa, but also from Lemina.
The important takeaway is that the quality starting lineup does not include Cav. We simply do not have the threshold any longer to wish for him to come into his own.
3 or 5 is still too negative for my liking. tosin and anderson are one of the best pairings we've had in a long time. they are good enough imo to not need an extra defender in there with them
In the most generic terms, it's naturally appearing negative. In context of how we play, I can't see how it is negative. It's based on who we face and absorb attacks by. In addition, something we are seeing more often, is the liberties it brings to allow one of those central defenders - in particular Andersen, to push forward up the pitch at times.
When most teams are playing with big numbers in the midfield, or overlapping wingbacks, we need to combat it by being equally spread out and advanced. The 3 and 5 do this. A good example is seeing the way Everton completely dominated the first half at CC because Digne kept Aina pushed further back. The second half, they sat back, and we were able to produce more attacks as a result because Digne stayed home more often. I mentioned it before, but the Leicsester match was the turning point because we were able to utilize Aina in the RCB role to shift from defensive line to a libero-type position with ease. He basically had Maddison in his back-pocket all match.
