I knew things were bad in Detroit but not to this extent...bloody hell
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/17/detroit-shrinking?CMP=twt_fd (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/dec/17/detroit-shrinking?CMP=twt_fd)
That's really shocking - hard to imagine in one of the richest countries of the world.
Scary indeed.
Is it twinned with Liverpool?
Detroit is a sh!t hole! They should do everyone a favor and burn it to the ground and start all over again.
Quote from: Tom on December 18, 2010, 09:42:44 AM
Detroit is a sh!t hole! They should do everyone a favor and burn it to the ground and start all over again.
That is pretty much what the Mayor(!) is suggesting they do in the article
Quote from: FatFreddysCat on December 18, 2010, 09:41:41 AM
Is it twinned with Liverpool?
Come on Fredster, it hasn't sunk THAT low. hahahahaha
It sounds like the 21st Century equivalent of the ghost towns left by the gold rush.
I wonder what the future holds for town and city centres in Britain as well. The Internet and out-of-town retail parks and supermarkets have turned thriving centres into desolate rows of empty premises and charity shops...... and it seems only estate agents are paying full rates.
Props to the mayor of Detroit. That city needs to adjust. My city is next. After we spend millions more tax player dollars on another stupid project like a medical mart convention center that the stupid stupid stupid politicians in Cleveland somehow think will save our economy, we will go bankrupt too. Anyone in the market for a house?
I don't know much about USA. Are other cities likely to follow this road? Or is Detroit just a 'one-off' because of it's reliance on the Motor industry.
It reminds me a bit of Middlesborough, where my late Mum came from. The place was a pretty small village in the 1890s, and then ship-building took off and a large town/city sprang up based solely around this one industry. When ship-building took a dive in the 80s and 90s, various Governments replaced the lost jobs by locating a lot of Public Sector Departments up that way. By 2008 the three biggest employers in Middlesbrough were Public Sector.
Then in 2009/10 we have financial collapse, the austerity measures, and Public Sector jobs are slashed. I know we joke about it being grim up north, but you can have some sympathy with the people that head south for work sometimes. London and the South East really does seem to be the place to be.
Jarv and Jimbob. Not sure how many times we Mods have said this but NO politics. Both of you have on more than one occassion made political posts. Stop please. :yellow:
I deleted both your posts.
It's not all that surprising, Scumpy, witch, finn, et al. Flint, MI is the one that started the notion of turning vacant properties into green spaces.
Here in Baltimore we have 30,000 vacant properties and 16,000 unoccupied buildings.
Why? Well, where to begin...
Detroit has been a mess as least as far back as the 1960s. Even before the auto industry downsized, it was the loss of tax revenue from upper, upper-middle, and middle class families leaving the city for the suburbs that caused the problems. Having said that, the city has a sterling history of mis-management that goes back at least to the early 1900s.
Certainly the loss of industrial jobs across the northern "rust belt" has resulted in depressed economies, but it isn't fatal. Pittsburgh became rich on coal and the production of steel, but is now a hi-tech center and is doing better than many northern cities.
Interestingly, these jobs disappeared when companies increasingly moved south and west where labor unions have less power. This meant that companies could pay lower wages and make more profits. Cities like Atlanta and Dallas grew exponentially because of this. Of course, now the same industrialists are moving these jobs overseas to where labor is even less expensive. Southern states -- like Texas -- have responded to this by offering firms huge tax exemptions for moving there. Some firms even have tax authority over the region where their corporation moves. That means that a portion of people's taxes in their area goes directly into corporate pockets rather than making a stop with government.
And as the cutting income to state and local government continues to spread, it has met with "privatization" to make even more money. In Austin they've just built a toll road from the Interstate to the Austin airport in an effort to cut back on traffic logjams that our capital city is noted for. The road is privately owned and administered, and, as part of the sweetheart deal the state cut with the owners, should traffic increase in the Austin-San Antonio IH35 corridor [and it will] any additional lanes added to the interstate will result in a "fine" where the state must pay a huge "penalty" fee directly to the toll compay to defray any losses they say they'll incur in the future. Since the toll road has had absolutely no effect on traffic in and around Austin, it's only a matter of time.
Here in Texas, these sort of tax breaks have resulted in a huge reduction in corporate tax revenue, and we're on the verge of huge deficits. Since that's against the law in Texas, the cuts in education, infrastructure, medical care, and law enforcement will be huge. So, even though we have very low cost of living, no industrial unions, and hardly any work days lost to extreme weather, we're likely to see the entire state of Texas turned into Detroit.
Not pointing fingers or anything. It's just another stage in the evolution of economic societies.
Mr. RR, sorry it was meant to be a joke but I have to say, such an interesting topic cannot be divorced from politics.
Quote from: jarv on December 18, 2010, 09:18:47 PM
Mr. RR, sorry it was meant to be a joke but I have to say, such an interesting topic cannot be divorced from politics.
Agreed but not impossible. I did read your post the way you intended but others might not. More creativity is called for in those moments, sort of like like finding a way to be creative with the language rather than using a four-letter word. :dft012:
No matter though, Detroit is a mess. Complex problem.
As a resident of the Detroit Metropolitan area for the vast majority of my life, I urge you readers to not throw the entire area under the bus. The City of Detroit is a desolate place, do not get me wrong, but the surrounding suburbs are some of the best communities to live/work in the entire World. The main reason for the debacle that has happened is the handiwork of one man, Coleman A Young. He singlehandedly orchastrated the demise of a once proud city. He scared the tax base outside of the city limits with radical policy and procedures, and created one of the worst race relation problems that is on record in the US. The only good thing he did was to accidentally build the tri-county into a thriving metropolis. The decay that the city has endured can be reversed, but it will take 45 years minimum. (ill be 71). I will never get to see the city as it should be, and its a downright shame. The difference can be seen just one block outside city limits, it is absolutly incredible.... nothing that Ive ever seen in my travels around the world.
heres an illustration of just the difference of 10 blocks
The problem in all too many American cities is simple mismanagement. Special interest groups contribute and put their guy in power who negotiates them a good deal it be union pay or city contractors. These continue to grow until it can no longer be afforded. My once great city of LA, as well as California, are headed down the same path. California has a budget shortage of somewhere around 27billion dollars and has many times that amount in unfunded pension liabilities. Public service employees make about 25% more than the private sector for equivilent jobs plus they retire in their fifties very often at as much or more than they were making when they were employed. BTW, they get their health care paid for as well. For a healthy couple of about 60 it cost in the neighborhood of $1400 a month for basic health insurance. California has about 10% of the countries population and 30% of its welfare cases. That and everyone & I mean everyone of people I know that have retired in the last 5 years has moved out of the state. Our population goes up and the number of employed people goes down. California has already been flushed, it is simply circling the drain.
To be a bit political, one needs to look who has been running these cities for the past years.
Thanks to the American posters. When I am back in UK, friends ask me about this stuff but I struggle to explain it as clearly as you chaps. I tend to generalise, things like all the mayors are corrupt and often get caught smoking dope or with hookers or both etc etc.
Quote from: jarv on December 19, 2010, 07:37:59 PM
Thanks to the American posters. When I am back in UK, friends ask me about this stuff but I struggle to explain it as clearly as you chaps. I tend to generalise, things like all the mayors are corrupt and often get caught smoking dope or with hookers or both etc etc.
In their defense, Mr. Jarv, many of the mayors don't have cable or satellite, so they have to make their own entertainment. :drums:
I must say I find this whole topic fascinating as I had never thought of it like that. The whole notion of bulldozing large areas and introducing Urban farms is pretty cool. It is sort of a reverse urbanization which is contrary to what has been going on in the world since the industrial revolution.
Kind of blows my mind, but makes sense from a cost perspective. I wonder if you take away the expense of the social services provided to the 1/3rd of Detroit in question, invest that money in bulldozing it down and build large farms on the land, creating jobs in the process yet saving on servicing (assuming very few people actually live on the farm), how long would it take to break even?
The other 2/3rds of Detroit will producing an increase in housing costs, giving the city more taxes and the house value of the people already living there will go up, giving them more money to spend and the City can collect more sales tax...
My head is spinning :029:, I wish I had SimCity and Detroit accurately modeled on my computer right now...
Quote from: Tom on December 18, 2010, 09:42:44 AM
Detroit is a sh!t hole! They should do everyone a favor and burn it to the ground and start all over again.
You been watching too much Robocop mate?
As Mr Hat correctly pointed out, Detroit was hit with the efflux of monies and jobs, and with the disruption inside of the motor industry (both commercial and private) it has allowed the companies to move to less union-friendly areas and finally rid themselves of costly and redundant work-rules that serve nobody but the union masters at the end of the day. Detroit and Michigan are not the only ones to see this motor industry move, though Detroit really has less other opportunities available to it to maintain its size.
I can understand the reasoning of the Mayor, and I have little doubt that his intentions are of the highest moral base, but I just cannot see how he will accomplish this in the short term, and it's the short term he needs to get things turned around in. It was a weird but learning curve weekend for me this past weekend. Visiting folks in Holland, MI, I joined my brother-in-law and niece-in-law at a homeless mission in Grand Rapids (one of the other large cities hit so hard by the downturn in Michigan) to serve the regular weekly hot meal. Looking at some of the 'regulars' there is quite head-turning. I noticed one lady, seemed around mid-forties, her hair was permed, she had nice, warm, winter clothes on, and appeared almost out of character in the place. When I asked the pastor about her, and others like her, he simply explained that so many people here live so close to the mark, and losing your income can easily mean you are out on the street in a fortnight! It was a shock to hear, but as I looked at it more and more, it became the reality of what life is like in a lot of big US Cities. Little to do with politics, just plain old society, nothing more.
I applaud this Mayor for doing what he believes is right, I wish him all the best, and I hope that none of us on this MB ever live to become entangled or the victims in such schemes.
