Just watching the England team singing the British national anthem. Isn't it about time we replaced the dirge 'God save our King' for something uplifting that reflects England as a nation. Every other country in the world has it's own national anthem, why do we not have one.
I've thought for many years we need our own national anthem not just today, the words need to reflect all that's good about England and not how we should respect our gracious leaders or god.
I am very much a proud Englishman, although way back have Irish, French and Eastern European ancestors.
What do you lot think about our anthem?
Eurgh, we have this conversation it feels yearly, and this year and last year far more often. Can we have a break from it? Essentially people on this board are split in whatever way between seeing the royal family as a net positive vs a net negative for the country. No one will really find a middle ground and that's the same conversation ad infinitum.
England has no national anthem of its own (cf. "Flower of Scotland", "Land of My Fathers", etc.).
England uses the national anthem of the United Kingdon as its own:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Save_the_King
As an Australian, it probably doesn't matter what I think about it. "God Save Our Queen" used to be our national anthem, but was replaced by "Advance Australia Fair" when I was ten. I'm glad we now have our own, although "Waltzing Matilda" and "I am, You are, We are Australian" tug at my heart strings more than the official one.
Yes GSTK is a complete and utter dirge, singing about one privileged individual.
The England national anthem should be about our country.
As you have said everyone else has their own national anthem accept us.
GSTK is uninspiring dirge that is why sports teams do not want to sing it, why would they.
land of hope & glory?
Well for me Jerusalem musically wise it's so uplifting, just the title is wrong.
Quote from: Lazybones on August 12, 2023, 11:58:04 AMAs an Australian, it probably doesn't matter what I think about it. "God Save Our Queen" used to be our national anthem, but was replaced by "Advance Australia Fair" when I was ten. I'm glad we now have our own, although "Waltzing Matilda" and "I am, You are, We are Australian" tug at my heart strings more than the official one.
I've always thought the Aussies missed a trick, perhaps showed an uncharacteristic lack of confidence, in passing on Waltzing Matilda in favour of the official, rather bland, composition.
I'll never forget 75 year old Slim Dusty closing the Sydney Olympics.
Even had Kylie giving it large.
Quote from: General on August 12, 2023, 11:57:56 AMEurgh, we have this conversation it feels yearly, and this year and last year far more often. Can we have a break from it? Essentially people on this board are split in whatever way between seeing the royal family as a net positive vs a net negative for the country. No one will really find a middle ground and that's the same conversation ad infinitum.
With all respect, I think you have missed the point, it might help if you answer the question and add a point of view that reflects your own position on that question.
Quote from: WhiteJC on August 12, 2023, 12:10:36 PMland of hope & glory?
I don't have a vote, but if I did, I'd vote for this before "Rule Britannia", "I Vow to Thee, My Country" or "Jerusalem".
Quote from: Southdowns White on August 12, 2023, 12:23:05 PMQuote from: General on August 12, 2023, 11:57:56 AMEurgh, we have this conversation it feels yearly, and this year and last year far more often. Can we have a break from it? Essentially people on this board are split in whatever way between seeing the royal family as a net positive vs a net negative for the country. No one will really find a middle ground and that's the same conversation ad infinitum.
With all respect, I think you have missed the point, it might help if you answer the question and add a point of view that reflects your own position on that question.
I have, we all have, time and again. That's the point.
Quote from: cmg on August 12, 2023, 12:22:39 PMQuote from: Lazybones on August 12, 2023, 11:58:04 AMAs an Australian, it probably doesn't matter what I think about it. "God Save Our Queen" used to be our national anthem, but was replaced by "Advance Australia Fair" when I was ten. I'm glad we now have our own, although "Waltzing Matilda" and "I am, You are, We are Australian" tug at my heart strings more than the official one.
I've always thought the Aussies missed a trick, perhaps showed an uncharacteristic lack of confidence, in passing on Waltzing Matilda in favour of the official, rather bland, composition.
I'll never forget 75 year old Slim Dusty closing the Sydney Olympics.
Even had Kylie giving it large.
I agree. Our courage failed us, plus (perhaps) anxiety about a national anthem that celebrates theft, dog's abuse for the police and suicide ;-)
I Vow To Thee My Country, more inspiring and a great tune.
It's a dreary, uninspiring dirge certainly, extolling concepts that most/many of us don't believe in, but we have this conversation each year and get nowhere.
Quote from: filham on August 12, 2023, 02:27:26 PMI Vow To Thee My Country, more inspiring and a great tune.
I don't, above all earthly things. There are far more important issues.
I love it
Agadoo.... that'll send us into battle
Quote from: H4usuallysitting on August 12, 2023, 02:52:15 PMAgadoo.... that'll send us into battle
I'll second that - how many more supporters do we need for this to be discussed in Parliament?!
Do agree GSTK should be replaced though. Land of Hope and Glory is a good idea or Jerusalem.
"Everyday is like Sunday" by Morrissey would make a perfect English national anthem
And for those nostalgic for the glory (or should that be gory?) days of the 80s.
"This Is England" - The Clash
...maybe not.
Get rid of this childish Nationalistic rubbish and do without anthems. They are vile and disgusting and have no relevance in sport.
If we have to have Internationals at all then simply do without the anthems. They are a throw back and make sport into mini wars which they are not. God can save who he likes but not during a football match.
For me " I Vow To Thee My Country " stands out above all the rest.
Quote from: Lighthouse on August 12, 2023, 05:32:03 PMGet rid of this childish Nationalistic rubbish and do without anthems. They are vile and disgusting and have no relevance in sport.
If we have to have Internationals at all then simply do without the anthems. They are a throw back and make sport into mini wars which they are not. God can save who he likes but not during a football match.
Just possible that international matches with anthems could help to avoid wars. Have you noticed that countries at war with each other never play any sport together.
Dear god did I go into suspended animation and wake up to yet another discussion on this same stale subject?
Quote from: Twig on August 12, 2023, 06:11:41 PMDear god did I go into suspended animation and wake up to yet another discussion on this same stale subject?
Maybe newer members on here may not have discussed this topic and would like to have there say, understand other peoples points of views on subjects. I fear the one or two people who have reacted negatively to this post are possibly scared by the thought of change, my question has got nothing to do with whether you are a royalist or not, just a change to the appalling non English national anthem our sporting hero's are made to mouth before they play for our country. Would it not be better to just give this thread a miss if you have nothing constructive to add. It would actually be interesting for some of us to know what you and the general actually think about the anthem, not just knock people down when they discuss something you don't agree with or may have discussed before.
Quote from: Southdowns White on August 12, 2023, 11:49:30 AMfor something uplifting that reflects England as a nation.
:slap:
GSTK is awful and should be replaced. It is not relevant to modern day life. Just organise a country wide vote.The old Queen has gone and so should the stupid song.
Quote from: WhiteJC on August 12, 2023, 12:10:36 PMland of hope & glory?
It would be my choice too , but in these Woke times there's no chance of that.
Quote from: filham on August 12, 2023, 06:09:34 PMQuote from: Lighthouse on August 12, 2023, 05:32:03 PMGet rid of this childish Nationalistic rubbish and do without anthems. They are vile and disgusting and have no relevance in sport.
If we have to have Internationals at all then simply do without the anthems. They are a throw back and make sport into mini wars which they are not. God can save who he likes but not during a football match.
Just possible that international matches with anthems could help to avoid wars. Have you noticed that countries at war with each other never play any sport together.
You mean while they are actually in conflict. Like Argentina and England during the Falklands War?
Quote from: Woolly Mammoth on August 12, 2023, 05:33:55 PMFor me " I Vow To Thee My Country " stands out above all the rest.
Above everything else, though? Really?
An instrumental
Quote from: Wolf on August 13, 2023, 09:31:09 AMAn instrumental
Hmmmm... I think it has to have words. Think of all the great communal sporting anthem moments — "Abide with me" before the FA Cup, "Swing low, sweet chariot", "O Flower of Scotland" — you need the choral element so everyone can add their voice.
Anyone for football's anthem!
Quote from: Lazybones on August 13, 2023, 09:53:05 AMQuote from: Wolf on August 13, 2023, 09:31:09 AMAn instrumental
Hmmmm... I think it has to have words. Think of all the great communal sporting anthem moments — "Abide with me" before the FA Cup, "Swing low, sweet chariot", "O Flower of Scotland" — you need the choral element so everyone can add their voice.
Ode to Joy: uplifting, inclusive and choral.
What you are mostly missing here is there is no need for an English anthem, because the English do not feel the need for one.
The UK is, to all intents and purposes, the rump of the English Empire, stretching all the way back to 1066. The British Empire was simply the English Empire at its height. England has conquered a sizable portion of the planet, over the centuries, but the first conquests were Wales, Scotland and Ireland. The Welsh, Scots and Irish have their divisions (Highland versus Lowland Scots, North and South Welsh, Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic), but they can forget those divisions when they have to unite and stand up to the English. And one way to stand up is to have your own anthem, which you belt out whenever you want to show the wretched English that they have not conquered your national spirit.
I was in Scotland last weekend, we took the mother in law, broomstick and all, to the Edinburgh Tattoo for her 80th birthday. It was a very good show (US Marines were a bit dodgy, Norwegians excellent, our lot excelled as usual) and the part at the end when the massed pipe bands marched off to "Scotland the Brave" stirred the blood, and no mistake. "God Save the King" was more dutifully done, rather than enthusiastically. Both served their purpose.
England has no anthem because England does not have a bullying neighbour (imagined or real) to stand up to. By the time we had lost the original Norman empire (100 Years War, we lost in extra time as the French carried on for 116 years) we were more into conquering the Celtic kingdoms, and our only real international threat was the Spanish Empire, which was already in decline. Once they shot their bolt with the Armada, the threat was theoretical, not real. Once the Celts were conquered, at least partially, we were forming the UK, and the UK got into the next round of international unpleasantries with the French, hence we have "God Save the King" as our anthem.
Over the next few decades there may be a greater move for Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish independence from the English Empire, and at that stage we will either adopt "God Save the King" as our official anthem, or if the republicans hold sway, we will come up with something else, which we will comfort ourselves with as we watch the Scots and Welsh go into financial ruin.
Quote from: Rupert on August 13, 2023, 10:14:17 AMWhat you are mostly missing here is there is no need for an English anthem, because the English do not feel the need for one.
The UK is, to all intents and purposes, the rump of the English Empire, stretching all the way back to 1066. The British Empire was simply the English Empire at its height. England has conquered a sizable portion of the planet, over the centuries, but the first conquests were Wales, Scotland and Ireland. The Welsh, Scots and Irish have their divisions (Highland versus Lowland Scots, North and South Welsh, Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic), but they can forget those divisions when they have to unite and stand up to the English. And one way to stand up is to have your own anthem, which you belt out whenever you want to show the wretched English that they have not conquered your national spirit.
I was in Scotland last weekend, we took the mother in law, broomstick and all, to the Edinburgh Tattoo for her 80th birthday. It was a very good show (US Marines were a bit dodgy, Norwegians excellent, our lot excelled as usual) and the part at the end when the massed pipe bands marched off to "Scotland the Brave" stirred the blood, and no mistake. "God Save the King" was more dutifully done, rather than enthusiastically. Both served their purpose.
England has no anthem because England does not have a bullying neighbour (imagined or real) to stand up to. By the time we had lost the original Norman empire (100 Years War, we lost in extra time as the French carried on for 116 years) we were more into conquering the Celtic kingdoms, and our only real international threat was the Spanish Empire, which was already in decline. Once they shot their bolt with the Armada, the threat was theoretical, not real. Once the Celts were conquered, at least partially, we were forming the UK, and the UK got into the next round of international unpleasantries with the French, hence we have "God Save the King" as our anthem.
Over the next few decades there may be a greater move for Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish independence from the English Empire, and at that stage we will either adopt "God Save the King" as our official anthem, or if the republicans hold sway, we will come up with something else, which we will comfort ourselves with as we watch the Scots and Welsh go into financial ruin.
Some good and resonating points here. England has perceived the need over the years, as being the "senior partner" in a slightly uncomfortable union, to suppress its identity. Not just through an anthem but in terms of celebrating its traditions and individuality. Go to Scotland or Wales (or Ireland) and they feel free to (and the need) celebrate their traditions and national identity and this manifests in their sporting anthems. Such tradition as remains in England is most often despised or scoffed at.
The first problem with GSTK, as an overarching anthem and residually used for England (again, as the senior partner), is that it lauds two concepts which many people feel are anachronistic and uninclusive in the modern world. Secondly, it's a dreary dirge and utterly uninspiring.
I doubt it'll change for centuries though.
Quote from: Holders on August 13, 2023, 10:02:09 AMQuote from: Lazybones on August 13, 2023, 09:53:05 AMQuote from: Wolf on August 13, 2023, 09:31:09 AMAn instrumental
Hmmmm... I think it has to have words. Think of all the great communal sporting anthem moments — "Abide with me" before the FA Cup, "Swing low, sweet chariot", "O Flower of Scotland" — you need the choral element so everyone can add their voice.
Ode to Joy: uplifting, inclusive and choral.
I agree. There's lots to like there.
However, very, very German. And that's probably a deal-breaker, don't you think?
Quote from: Lazybones on August 13, 2023, 10:32:16 AMQuote from: Holders on August 13, 2023, 10:02:09 AMQuote from: Lazybones on August 13, 2023, 09:53:05 AMQuote from: Wolf on August 13, 2023, 09:31:09 AMAn instrumental
Hmmmm... I think it has to have words. Think of all the great communal sporting anthem moments — "Abide with me" before the FA Cup, "Swing low, sweet chariot", "O Flower of Scotland" — you need the choral element so everyone can add their voice.
Ode to Joy: uplifting, inclusive and choral.
I agree. There's lots to like there.
However, very, very German. And that's probably a deal-breaker, don't you think?
It was tongue in cheek, of course, but as an example that fits the criteria of a good anthem it's far better than the dirge.
Quote from: Holders on August 13, 2023, 10:24:22 AMQuote from: Rupert on August 13, 2023, 10:14:17 AMWhat you are mostly missing here is there is no need for an English anthem, because the English do not feel the need for one.
The UK is, to all intents and purposes, the rump of the English Empire, stretching all the way back to 1066. The British Empire was simply the English Empire at its height. England has conquered a sizable portion of the planet, over the centuries, but the first conquests were Wales, Scotland and Ireland. The Welsh, Scots and Irish have their divisions (Highland versus Lowland Scots, North and South Welsh, Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic), but they can forget those divisions when they have to unite and stand up to the English. And one way to stand up is to have your own anthem, which you belt out whenever you want to show the wretched English that they have not conquered your national spirit.
I was in Scotland last weekend, we took the mother in law, broomstick and all, to the Edinburgh Tattoo for her 80th birthday. It was a very good show (US Marines were a bit dodgy, Norwegians excellent, our lot excelled as usual) and the part at the end when the massed pipe bands marched off to "Scotland the Brave" stirred the blood, and no mistake. "God Save the King" was more dutifully done, rather than enthusiastically. Both served their purpose.
England has no anthem because England does not have a bullying neighbour (imagined or real) to stand up to. By the time we had lost the original Norman empire (100 Years War, we lost in extra time as the French carried on for 116 years) we were more into conquering the Celtic kingdoms, and our only real international threat was the Spanish Empire, which was already in decline. Once they shot their bolt with the Armada, the threat was theoretical, not real. Once the Celts were conquered, at least partially, we were forming the UK, and the UK got into the next round of international unpleasantries with the French, hence we have "God Save the King" as our anthem.
Over the next few decades there may be a greater move for Welsh, Northern Irish and Scottish independence from the English Empire, and at that stage we will either adopt "God Save the King" as our official anthem, or if the republicans hold sway, we will come up with something else, which we will comfort ourselves with as we watch the Scots and Welsh go into financial ruin.
Some good and resonating points here. England has perceived the need over the years, as being the "senior partner" in a slightly uncomfortable union, to suppress its identity. Not just through an anthem but in terms of celebrating its traditions and individuality. Go to Scotland or Wales (or Ireland) and they feel free to (and the need) celebrate their traditions and national identity and this manifests in their sporting anthems. Such tradition as remains in England is most often despised or scoffed at.
The first problem with GSTK, as an overarching anthem and residually used for England (again, as the senior partner), is that it lauds two concepts which many people feel are anachronistic and uninclusive in the modern world. Secondly, it's a dreary dirge and utterly uninspiring.
I doubt it'll change for centuries though.
Thank you guys, nice to have some interesting debate without getting over political or insulting anyone.
Quote from: Southdowns White on August 12, 2023, 09:30:59 PMQuote from: Twig on August 12, 2023, 06:11:41 PMDear god did I go into suspended animation and wake up to yet another discussion on this same stale subject?
Maybe newer members on here may not have discussed this topic and would like to have there say, understand other peoples points of views on subjects. I fear the one or two people who have reacted negatively to this post are possibly scared by the thought of change, my question has got nothing to do with whether you are a royalist or not, just a change to the appalling non English national anthem our sporting hero's are made to mouth before they play for our country. Would it not be better to just give this thread a miss if you have nothing constructive to add. It would actually be interesting for some of us to know what you and the general actually think about the anthem, not just knock people down when they discuss something you don't agree with or may have discussed before.
To make my viewpoint clear. I dislike and distrust petty nationalism, I only have to look at the fragmentation of some nation states in Europe and elsewhere and to the nasty conflicts that have resulted. I also detest populist, rabble rousing leaders who utilise jingoism to achieve power.
I understand and relate to pride in one's country but not blinkered nationalism. Personally I have never seen England as my country, I am proud of the United Kingdom and of many people and nationalities that constitute the UK. Therefore I feel absolutely no need for an English anthem.
I was also proud to be a part of Europe and am saddened that we are no longer contributing to the European Union.
Quote from: alfie on August 12, 2023, 12:21:47 PMWell for me Jerusalem musically wise it's so uplifting, just the title is wrong.
It was also written as a criticism of the times not a praising.
We live in the United K(ingdom) hence the UK Anthem. It's short especially without the verses.
Wales and Scotland sensibly chose alternatives not so many decades ago with inspiring words sung to very memorable tunes about their wonderful countries. Should England have an anthem and why not Sir Hubert Parry's 'Jerusalem' (And did those feet in ancient times ...) which really stirs the blood as to what we have in England that no one else in the Union has?
No brainer to me.
Quote from: toshes mate on August 14, 2023, 08:08:04 AMWe live in the United K(ingdom) hence the UK Anthem. It's short especially without the verses.
Wales and Scotland sensibly chose alternatives not so many decades ago with inspiring words sung to very memorable tunes about their wonderful countries. Should England have an anthem and why not Sir Hubert Parry's 'Jerusalem' (And did those feet in ancient times ...) which really stirs the blood as to what we have in England that no one else in the Union has?
No brainer to me.
That was my choice, but see previous post that it was written as a criticism not in praise of the times, still find it uplifting, you can really get your voice going on with this.
Royals, bunch of scroungers on the tax payer, undeserving of any song. Yes, the sond does need to change, there have been many suggestions on here. Many good ones.
Jerusalem or Tulips from Amsterdam, New York New York, Paris in the Springtime... the list of risible alternatives is endless.
Shame the pistols can't reform and do an update of good save the queen
As a FOF I suggest a cockney medley...any old iron?,Lambeth walk and my old man said follow the van.
Not a royalist so anything is better than there anthem.
Since this thread topic seems to be regurgitated annually, wouldn't it make sense for someone here to organise a proper song/anthem contest to come up with a proper newly worded tune.
Perhaps one thats more appropriate to sporting occasions, than conflict/war. Maybe the contents could include famous football clubs from the south -east, north and west of the county, but not leaving out the oldest and best club in London.
then, if such a decent and appropriate winning song can be developed on paper, I'm sure there's enough active minds using this site that might have some contacts in the music world, an artist/singer or band member who might come up with an appropriate tune to match the words.
Dont look at me folks to organise it, I'm Irish. If you follow our rugby internationals youll find that we are more Fu.ked up than you guys as we have to sing for two anthems!
Quote from: Cobh Fulham Fan on August 14, 2023, 10:31:46 AMSince this thread topic seems to be regurgitated annually, wouldn't it make sense for someone here to organise a proper song/anthem contest to come up with a proper newly worded tune.
Perhaps one thats more appropriate to sporting occasions, than conflict/war. Maybe the contents could include famous football clubs from the south -east, north and west of the county, but not leaving out the oldest and best club in London.
then, if such a decent and appropriate winning song can be developed on paper, I'm sure there's enough active minds using this site that might have some contacts in the music world, an artist/singer or band member who might come up with an appropriate tune to match the words.
Dont look at me folks to organise it, I'm Irish. If you follow our rugby internationals youll find that we are more Fu.ked up than you guys as we have to sing for two anthems!
Yeah but Athenry is stirring and evocative. The only reference to football is "on the wing"!
Well my obsession with Band Maid goes to them having a song that would fit our National Anthem,
The words are ' I Hate You, I Hate You,I Hate you (Repeat) I don't care if you die out.
This would be my entry on their behalf.
Does it really matter? I don't think people care about this kind of pomp and ceremony as much as in generations gone by.
Most people alive today were at least in their 20s when rock'n roll/pop music came onto the scene, and those who are younger have had it as the background music to everyday life ever since. If anybody does care enough to adopt a more upbeat tune that resonates with most of the population there have been enough mega-successful tunes from top English musicians in this life time to find a contender.
In chronological order (and not exclusively) there will be inoffensive uplifting quintessentially English tunes that would fit the bill from Cliff Richard, Beatles, Stones, Kinks, Bowie, Roxy Music, Slade, ELO, Clash, Madness, Oasis, Blur etc. I'm missing lots of great artists out but if it changes let's go for a "pop" song that means something to most people.
Obviously, there is only one real contender. Tuneful, easy to sing, inoffensive and contemporary lyrics:
You're just too good to be true
Can't take my eyes off of you
You'd be like Heaven to touch
I wanna hold you so much
At long last, love has arrived
And I thank God I'm alive
You're just too good to be true
Can't take my eyes off of you
Pardon the way that I stare
There's nothin' else to compare
The sight of you leaves me weak
There are no words left to speak
But if you feel like I feel
Please let me know that it's real
You're just too good to be true
Can't take my eyes off of you
I love you, baby
And if it's quite alright
I need you, baby
To warm the lonely night
I love you, baby
Trust in me when I say
Oh, pretty baby
Don't bring me down, I pray
Oh, pretty baby
Now that I've found you, stay
And let me love you, baby
Let me love you
You're just too good to be true
Can't take my eyes off of you
You'd be like Heaven to touch
I wanna hold you so much
At long last, love has arrived
And I thank God I'm alive
You're just too good to be true
Can't take my eyes off you
I love you, baby
And if it's quite alright
I need you, baby
To warm the lonely night
I love you, baby
Trust in me when I say
Oh, pretty baby
Don't bring me down, I pray
Oh, pretty baby
Now that I've found you, stay
Oh, pretty baby
Trust in me when I say
Oh, pretty baby
It does not need to be a recent pop song as long as the words can be sung unaccompanied satisfactorily by a large group of people .
Some pop songs cannot e.g. Sweet Caroline. Some can e.g. You'll never walk alone.
Here is the chorus of an oldie that could be related to sport and even to supportership.
Keep right on to the end of the road,
Keep right on to the end,
If the way be long, let your heart be strong,
Keep right on round the bend.
If you're tired and weary still journey on,
Till you come to your happy abode,
Where all you love that you're dreaming of
Will be there at the end of the road.
Interpretations of words is pure opinion and taste. There will never be something that pleases everyone.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with the words to Jerusalem as a national anthem, nothing. And it is a pleasure to actually sing it (unlike the current English choice which is often reduced to a dirge when it isn't meant to be, and vice versa).
As for pop songs et al are you people for real or just having a laugh?
Gustav Holst a Hammersmith local lad who lived in Brook Green wrote the Planet Suite amongst much else. His piece named Jupiter contains a wonderful bridge to the main theme which was nominated as potential music for an anthem in the vein of (but different to) Elgar's Land of Hope and Glory. Holst was quite humbled for reasons which requires knowing something about his background but it is a great tune to sing words to.
There will never be something that pleases everyone but at least there should be something that offends no-one. To begin with, in a country which is 52.8pc non-christian (as per the last census) it should at least be secular. Jerusalem does not fit that.
