Forest - Just signed their 11th player

[Sting of the North]

Sure, but that doesn't mean that the problem of the alleged delay on transfers is the level of involvement from Khan Jr. The argument here was that it is TK's actions or control behaviour that is the reason for us not getting more players over the line. It could equally be one or several other reasons (incompetence, bad support staff, bad luck, inexperience etc.). Thus, I questioned whether or not there were reasonable information to suggest that the problem is that TK is too involved.

[FFC1987]

Sure, but that doesn't mean that the problem of the alleged delay on transfers is the level of involvement from Khan Jr. The argument here was that it is TK's actions or control behaviour that is the reason for us not getting more players over the line. It could equally be one or several other reasons (incompetence, bad support staff, bad luck, inexperience etc.). Thus, I questioned whether or not there were reasonable information to suggest that the problem is that TK is too involved.

That seems fair enough. I guess following on, its the more the people that don't think TK has done anything wrong or can't see it I tend to argue with. For what its worth, I'm been firmly a TK fan minus some of his questionable social media to this point, but this windows stinks (to me anyway).

[Sting of the North]

I find it far too early to assess this window. I prefer to see where the pieces fit together before passing judgment.

[FFC1987]

I find it far too early to assess this window. I prefer to see where the pieces fit together before passing judgment.

I take it as a two phase process. One for how quickly we get key players in for a good pre-season, then we should have no excuses for a poor start. Then lets see how the late comers react and where we are by christmas.

[ALG01]

I didn't say everything is wrong but our transfer policy over the recent seasons is surely very poor in the years we have been promoted, and even the years we weren't and I sight previous managers comments.

Managers?  Since Khan Jnr took over only Jokanovic openly criticised recruitment by saying he had been told it wasn't his job!  Parker was involved (according to him and TK) and Marco Silva is presumed to be involved because Khan Snr wouldn't have it any other way.  That leaves Ranieri who thought Khan Jnr had done well and the team was 'good enough'.  Is it any wonder people question your comments?

Parker and kit both were very critical.
The wonder is the same handful of people have a go at me while saying nothing.
Iit is very tiresome people like you prefer to have a go at me rather than the very poor performance of our transfer policy.

Or i can take your view and just accept the dross in an unquestioning way.

[Bokonon]

I think Tony has been a mediocre/somewhat-below-average DoF in the past, and is one factor of several, in our various relegations in recent history (not the one 10 years ago). I don't think he is amazing or anything close to that as a DoF now.

I wish we had a full-time, dedicated DoF.

I don't think, based on the last few windows, comments/articles the last couple of years, as well as what has been reported this window, that Tony is much to blame directly for the current window situation (send more CBs!). I don't get the sense that Tony controls the direct negotiations much, and I'm not convinced he was ever much. I put more of the blame on Ali Mac, and to an extent the requirement of a limited-income club like ours to comply with FFP.

Of course, some of the FFP stuff is just payment, with interest, on some previously bad decisions by TK, but most of that has turned over at this point, and while hindsight makes the overpayment on Knockaert and Cavaleiro obvious now, IIRC bringing them in with loan-to-buy deals was seen as worth it to ensure an immediate return to the Premier League.

[toshes mate]

I didn't say everything is wrong but our transfer policy over the recent seasons is surely very poor in the years we have been promoted, and even the years we weren't and I sight previous managers comments.

Managers?  Since Khan Jnr took over only Jokanovic openly criticised recruitment by saying he had been told it wasn't his job!  Parker was involved (according to him and TK) and Marco Silva is presumed to be involved because Khan Snr wouldn't have it any other way.  That leaves Ranieri who thought Khan Jnr had done well and the team was 'good enough'.  Is it any wonder people question your comments?

Parker and kit both were very critical.
The wonder is the same handful of people have a go at me while saying nothing.
Iit is very tiresome people like you prefer to have a go at me rather than the very poor performance of our transfer policy.

Or i can take your view and just accept the dross in an unquestioning way.

Symons was gone before TK took the reigns.
I question as much as anyone but try hard to think of the right questions to ask.  You should try it too.

[Blawarmy]

Forest fans are getting in my nerves.  But on the other hand I admire the club for having a go. 
I'm sure Cooper told them who he wanted, rather than Tony just bought his from the stat machine and told Joka to sort it! 


Sent from my SM-G990B using Tapatalk

[Nero]

Forest fans are getting in my nerves.  But on the other hand I admire the club for having a go. 
I'm sure Cooper told them who he wanted, rather than Tony just bought his from the stat machine and told Joka to sort it! 


Sent from my SM-G990B using Tapatalk

It was the same system under Joka as now, but Joka threw his dummy out and didn't want to be involved because he didn't get a player he wanted so it had to be down to 2 boxes

[Kingjay81]

I didn't say everything is wrong but our transfer policy over the recent seasons is surely very poor in the years we have been promoted, and even the years we weren't and I sight previous managers comments.

Managers?  Since Khan Jnr took over only Jokanovic openly criticised recruitment by saying he had been told it wasn't his job!  Parker was involved (according to him and TK) and Marco Silva is presumed to be involved because Khan Snr wouldn't have it any other way.  That leaves Ranieri who thought Khan Jnr had done well and the team was 'good enough'.  Is it any wonder people question your comments?

Parker and kit both were very critical.
The wonder is the same handful of people have a go at me while saying nothing.
Iit is very tiresome people like you prefer to have a go at me rather than the very poor performance of our transfer policy.

Or i can take your view and just accept the dross in an unquestioning way.

Symons was gone before TK took the reigns.
I question as much as anyone but try hard to think of the right questions to ask.  You should try it too.

Love this. I'm a casual poster but an intense reader and am finding some of the TK criticism intolerable which is why I don't engage in much posting. However most of the criticism seems to me to be made up nonsense or perhaps completely incorrect assumptions by a lot of posters and I'm so pleased to see one of these posters (Alg01)  being found out here in claiming Kit Symons was criticising Mr Khan Junior before he was even employed by the club!

[Baszab]

I didn't say everything is wrong but our transfer policy over the recent seasons is surely very poor in the years we have been promoted, and even the years we weren't and I sight previous managers comments.

Managers?  Since Khan Jnr took over only Jokanovic openly criticised recruitment by saying he had been told it wasn't his job!  Parker was involved (according to him and TK) and Marco Silva is presumed to be involved because Khan Snr wouldn't have it any other way.  That leaves Ranieri who thought Khan Jnr had done well and the team was 'good enough'.  Is it any wonder people question your comments?

Parker and kit both were very critical.
The wonder is the same handful of people have a go at me while saying nothing.
Iit is very tiresome people like you prefer to have a go at me rather than the very poor performance of our transfer policy.

Or i can take your view and just accept the dross in an unquestioning way.

Symons was gone before TK took the reigns.
I question as much as anyone but try hard to think of the right questions to ask.  You should try it too.

You are wrong
Kit was working with TK
I have heard a first hand account of the interference

[FFC1987]

I didn't say everything is wrong but our transfer policy over the recent seasons is surely very poor in the years we have been promoted, and even the years we weren't and I sight previous managers comments.

Managers?  Since Khan Jnr took over only Jokanovic openly criticised recruitment by saying he had been told it wasn't his job!  Parker was involved (according to him and TK) and Marco Silva is presumed to be involved because Khan Snr wouldn't have it any other way.  That leaves Ranieri who thought Khan Jnr had done well and the team was 'good enough'.  Is it any wonder people question your comments?

Parker and kit both were very critical.
The wonder is the same handful of people have a go at me while saying nothing.
Iit is very tiresome people like you prefer to have a go at me rather than the very poor performance of our transfer policy.

Or i can take your view and just accept the dross in an unquestioning way.

Symons was gone before TK took the reigns.
I question as much as anyone but try hard to think of the right questions to ask.  You should try it too.

Love this. I'm a casual poster but an intense reader and am finding some of the TK criticism intolerable which is why I don't engage in much posting. However most of the criticism seems to me to be made up nonsense or perhaps completely incorrect assumptions by a lot of posters and I'm so pleased to see one of these posters (Alg01)  being found out here in claiming Kit Symons was criticising Mr Khan Junior before he was even employed by the club!

See, I'd be somewhat sympathetic to posts like this if you gave any sort of evidence for others baseless claims. I'll take issue with this as, whilst I'm not in Alg01 camp, I can't imagine how deluded and head in sand one would have to be in suggesting TK hasn't done much or anything wrong when a cursory glance at his own words would provide ample evidence that he has. And the biggest gaff is, he's reliving the same one to some extent with no CB's in early having released a few (who albeit weren't good enough). I'm not going to die on the hill that TK and Kit worked together, but that seems hardly relevant when we have ample evidence of him not quite being up to standards with other managers.

[toshes mate]

Mike Rigg was appointed by Shahid Khan as Chief Football Officer in December 2014 specifically as support to Kit Symons.   Rigg's background was as a talent finder and technical director with for example Manchester City, QPR and the FA.   Rigg did not leave Fulham until November 2016 well into Jokanovic's first season and so Symons, unlike the Serb, was well supported throughout his tenure. 

This is what Khan Snr said at the time Rigg was appointed: 

"Based on my experience over the past 17 months and through the most recent managerial search, it became clear to me that the new Fulham manager - in fact, the entire football operation - would benefit from someone whose sole responsibility was to focus on the short, mid and long-term product on the pitch.  In my mind, that called for a head of all football activities that would report directly to me but work collaboratively with Kit, our scouting group, the Academy, sports performance medical and our analytics team.

This wasn't a revelation, but rather the recognition that the challenges football clubs face today are more complex than ever and our ambition requires that we organise in the optimal way to achieve our goals. But we were not interested in accelerating this organisational shift for Fulham until, or unless, we found the right person. And we have in Mike Rigg."

This is what the FA had to say about Rigg's departure.

"We are really sorry to see Mike go but we totally understand his reasons,' said Ashworth, in a statement released by the FA. 'It was always likely he would move back into club football at some stage, as this type of role becomes increasingly common within the game.

Mike has played a huge part in the transformation of the way in which we work in talent identification and helped build and shape a department that looks after both the male and female game.

I would like to place on record my thanks for all of his hard work and support and wish him well in his new role at Fulham.'

*

With hindsight Khan Snr may have to see the takeover of recruitment by TK and CK as a very big and disruptive mistake because clearly the plan was to build a proper professional football base at Motspur Park able to seek out and recruit talent.   Rigg was central to that and had much essential experience necessary to make it work.   Neither TK nor CK had such experience in any form of football let alone English football.

What did TK and CK offer other than the same analytics available to any football club with a PC and the software necessary to watch the marketplace 24/7/365 and why did Rigg leave so quickly after they began their reign?    Those are questions that need answers although I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for them.

Some people really need to do their fact finding before they jump out of the frying pan into the fire and it isn't that hard to do the former thus avoiding having to suffer the latter ...

[spikey norman]

This article seems to suggest that Forest haven't finished their spending yet (and there is a slight dig at us too)

https://www.hitc.com/en-gb/2022/07/23/ive-been-told-journalist-shares-exciting-nottingham-forest-transfer-update/

[Surlyc]

What did TK and CK offer other than the same analytics available to any football club with a PC and the software necessary to watch the marketplace 24/7/365 and why did Rigg leave so quickly after they began their reign?    Those are questions that need answers although I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for them.

Those are very relevant questions and I think the unfortunate answer is an ambitious scion who wanted to make his name in a sporting operation where he could actually run everything (unlike the NFL, where the Jaguars have always had a General Manager). That necessitated the departure of any experienced heads like Rigg and a pause on hiring any replacement.

I don't think TK is overly bad, but he is definitely a rich kid who gets to play real life Football Manager/WWE GM mode. Nepotism is never a good thing in a business.

[toshes mate]

What did TK and CK offer other than the same analytics available to any football club with a PC and the software necessary to watch the marketplace 24/7/365 and why did Rigg leave so quickly after they began their reign?    Those are questions that need answers although I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for them.

Those are very relevant questions and I think the unfortunate answer is an ambitious scion who wanted to make his name in a sporting operation where he could actually run everything (unlike the NFL, where the Jaguars have always had a General Manager). That necessitated the departure of any experienced heads like Rigg and a pause on hiring any replacement.

I don't think TK is overly bad, but he is definitely a rich kid who gets to play real life Football Manager/WWE GM mode. Nepotism is never a good thing in a business.

I really do not understand what happened but I do believe there are many other questions that arose from CK's rhetoric, his many rambling complaints about the state of English football which led to actions taken against him, and his general demeanour after he was dismissed by Khan Snr.   It just seemed such a toxic environment so soon after such positive activity from Shahid Khan.  I would conjecture there was a lot of jealousy in the work place where the professionals were given a very hard time by the amateurs. What I didn't quote from my fact finding were the clear messages from Khan Snr about developing and enlarging Motspur Park with Mackintosh taking over the commercial reigns and the plans to develop the Riverside. 

Khan Snr genuinely seemed so clear headed and long sighted and yet he seemingly changed his mind about directions of travel so suddenly in Summer 2016.   Naivety perhaps but I think it may have been something else entirely.   I'll probe further but I really don't know exactly where to look at the moment and so it is all stabbing in the dark.   

[Lambo]

If we had signed as many players as Forest - people would saying have we not learn from a 2018 when we signed virtually a new team; Schurrle, Le Marchand, Mawson, Seri, Anguissa, Fabri, ........... etc, that didn't work out too well!

Back then we got accused of buying for sake of buying, no team spirit, players who were part of the promotion being dislodged by overpaid mercenaries.

Will be interesting to see how Forest integrate all those players with the team that got them up, they will definitely have to overcome the us and them.

[copthornemike]

Have to hand it to Forest - they have supported their coach to the hilt with some excellent players - mostly proven to greater or lesser degrees in the Premiership or Championship.
Looking at our 2018 buys many had no Premiership or Championship pedigree so could be viewed as 'gambles.'
In my opinion have to say Forest appear to have a better balanced & proven squad compared to our 2018 intake, even if we had a better Championship promotion squad. Mind you hindsight is a wonderful gift!

[rebel]

If we had signed as many players as Forest - people would saying have we not learn from a 2018 when we signed virtually a new team; Schurrle, Le Marchand, Mawson, Seri, Anguissa, Fabri, ........... etc, that didn't work out too well!

Back then we got accused of buying for sake of buying, no team spirit, players who were part of the promotion being dislodged by overpaid mercenaries.

Will be interesting to see how Forest integrate all those players with the team that got them up, they will definitely have to overcome the us and them.

Joka wanted Premiership experienced players, instead Khan did the 'Moneyball' thing.

[itombomb]

The main thing to remember is that with their loans and departures, Forest already needed to pay at least £50m on players get a squad that was close to what we had in the Championship last year, let alone one that is ready for the Premier League.

Their choice was either to spend a load of money to have any chance of being competitive, or go back down immediately - having paid nothing and pissed the fans off, or paying a 'moderate' amount for a slightly less awful relegation.