NFR: USSR - Belgium 1986 (+ question)

[sipwell]

Yesterday was the 25th anniversary of the Belgian victory over USSR in the World Cup 1986 1/8th final. USSR was the absolute world team at that moment and had annihilated the competition in the group stage. Nine of the starting players played for Dinamo Kiev who had made any European club look like fools in the Champion's League run. Belgium had done awful in group stage (one loss against Mexico, one draw against Paraguay and a small victory against the mighty Iraqis).

Any way. Long introduction to say the following. The Belgian T.V. decided to transmit the full game yesterday evening to celebrate that magical moment in Belgian history (we reached semifinals only to be beaten by Maradona and 10 other folks). So here I was, actually nervous before and during the game (even though I knew we won), watching it together with my girlfriend. It feels strange to say but I really enjoyed the game, the pace and the fairplay of both sides.
There was no discussion in the games : If the referee said the wall had to move back 2 metres, the wall moved back two metres. If the referee gave offside where it obviously wasn't, the player looked disappointed but ran back to his position. Only the captain was allowed to speak with the referee.
there was no shirt pulling, there were no nasty tackles: With a corner kick, all players stood on a distance from one another and nobody pulled each others shirt. When the attacker got passed the defender, the latter didn't pull his shirt. Even though tackling from behind was still allowed and tackling with two legs was equally allowed, there were no nasty tackles to speak of. All tackling were aimed to conquer the ball rather than hurt the opponent. In fact, when a defender was too late, he pulled back his feet/leg and let the attacker pass, without attempting to pull him down or obstruct him. One yellow card was given in a game with very high stakes!
slow but fast Even though the pace of the game was fairly low (it was hot and it was back in the days a bit slower), the game was actually played. Barely any fouls, barely any stalling. No, 90 minutes of actual football rather than the 60 minutes of football and 30 minutes of laying on the ground pretending to die.

The passing back to the goalie was annoying but you got used to it.

How come footballers nowadays seem to have lost the fairplay ideal? How come you barely see gentlemen on the pitch? How come playing dead has become an obsession with so many players?

[AlFayedsChequebook]

I think if you watch the Italian team from the 1980's you would see plenty of gamesmanship.

And the Argentinians.

Dont get caught in the trap of nostalgia!

[sipwell]

I am waiting for Airfix to say the name that brings me back to reality again. And to stress, anger and frustration :D

[ImperialWhite]

Thought much the same thing when I saw that Real Madrid - Eintracht Frankfurt European Cup final (1960).

(although I'd add that the camera work was terrible then)

[sipwell]

Thought much the same thing when I saw that Real Madrid - Eintracht Frankfurt European Cup final (1960).

(although I'd add that the camera work was terrible then)

And barely replays :o

[Pata]

What you fail to mention is there was a degree of controversy about both Belgian goals during normal time, but especially about the 2nd scored by Ceulemans. This caused MUCH bitterness in the USSR back then and it still rankles now.

Scifo's was marginal but the 2nd one was a disgrace. To compound matters the Spanish linesman actually put his flag up... and straight down again, further confusing the Soviets. The said linesman was suspended after the game. The ref Fredriksson returned to haunt Team USSR at the 1990 World Cup after failing to award a penalty and send off Maradona in the 10th minute of the Argentina match for a blatant handball on the line.

PS Dynamo Kiev, mighty as they were in 1986, only won the Cup Winners' Cup (destroying Atletico Madrid in the final), rather than the Big Ears.

[sipwell]

What you fail to mention is there was a degree of controversy about both Belgian goals during normal time, but especially about the 2nd scored by Ceulemans. This caused MUCH bitterness in the USSR back then and it still rankles now.

Scifo's was marginal but the 2nd one was a disgrace. To compound matters the Spanish linesman actually put his flag up... and straight down again, further confusing the Soviets. The said linesman was suspended after the game. The ref Fredriksson returned to haunt Team USSR at the 1990 World Cup after failing to award a penalty and send off Maradona in the 10th minute of the Argentina match for a blatant handball on the line.

PS Dynamo Kiev, mighty as they were in 1986, only won the Cup Winners' Cup (destroying Atletico Madrid in the final), rather than the Big Ears.

Scifo wasn't offside. Not in a thousand years. He comes from behind the back of his defender the moment the pass was given! And Ceulemans wasn't offside either. Watching it on video/television might give you that impression but he has always said that he was sprinting forward onside and didn't expect that pass to come any way.
België vs USSR - WK 1986 Mexico

How could the Russians be confused if they only noticed the linesman AFTER the goal was scored! Twice they were just sleeping!

[Airfix]

I am waiting for Airfix to say the name that brings me back to reality again. And to stress, anger and frustration :D

David Platt?

[sipwell]

I am waiting for Airfix to say the name that brings me back to reality again. And to stress, anger and frustration :D

David Platt?

Thanks for bursting my bubble AGAIN

[ImperialWhite]

I am waiting for Airfix to say the name that brings me back to reality again. And to stress, anger and frustration :D

David Platt?

Thanks for bursting my bubble AGAIN

Three Lions 96 Baddiel Skinner The Lightning Seeds England World Cup Song

At some point during the song you can hear the English commentary for this goal!

England have done it... in the last minute of extra time!

[sipwell]

I am waiting for Airfix to say the name that brings me back to reality again. And to stress, anger and frustration :D

David Platt?

Thanks for bursting my bubble AGAIN

At some point during the song you can hear the English commentary for this goal!

England have done it... in the last minute of extra time!

I hope you don't expect me to watch that. Platt must be the most hated Englishman in Belgium. He is our version of the Antichrist. Funnily enough he was only made aware of that recently, when he was interviewed for a documentary. I think he will think twice when he decides to cross the Channel and enter the most beautiful Kingdom on earth, in fact the direct link between heaven and this world.

[jarv]

Football was definitely slower back then but  the players were more honest. I recently saw a clip of Eddie Gray (Leeds winger) getting absolutely hacked down in full flight. He got up, put the ball on the spot for someone else to take the free kick and jogged into his position. Not a word, not a complaint, just got on with it.

The only problem I can think of today is the amount of money at stake. Also, Murphy's comments about teams being sent out too pumped up and too willing to cheat still has some legs if this is the case.

[Pata]

Scifo wasn't offside. Not in a thousand years. He comes from behind the back of his defender the moment the pass was given! And Ceulemans wasn't offside either. Watching it on video/television might give you that impression but he has always said that he was sprinting forward onside and didn't expect that pass to come any way.

How could the Russians be confused if they only noticed the linesman AFTER the goal was scored! Twice they were just sleeping!

That's why I said Scifo's was "marginal".

What Ceulemans said according to you differs from what Bessonov (the Soviet defender) says. Read some interview with Ceulemans where he actually avoids answering the question whether he was offside or not and instead concentrates on the Soviets underestimating Belgium (which is probably fair in itself).

Not sure what you mean by the Russians* noticing the linesman "AFTER" the goal was scored? That they start complaining only afterwards? Again, Bessonov maintains he say the flag immediately and paused momentarily.

*When Ceulemans scored, there was arguably 1 Russian on the pitch - Spartak's Rodionov, the rest being Ukrainians, a Belarussian and a Tatar.

[sipwell]

Scifo wasn't offside. Not in a thousand years. He comes from behind the back of his defender the moment the pass was given! And Ceulemans wasn't offside either. Watching it on video/television might give you that impression but he has always said that he was sprinting forward onside and didn't expect that pass to come any way.

How could the Russians be confused if they only noticed the linesman AFTER the goal was scored! Twice they were just sleeping!

That's why I said Scifo's was "marginal".

What Ceulemans said according to you differs from what Bessonov (the Soviet defender) says. Read some interview with Ceulemans where he actually avoids answering the question whether he was offside or not and instead concentrates on the Soviets underestimating Belgium (which is probably fair in itself).

Not sure what you mean by the Russians* noticing the linesman "AFTER" the goal was scored? That they start complaining only afterwards? Again, Bessonov maintains he say the flag immediately and paused momentarily.

*When Ceulemans scored, there was arguably 1 Russian on the pitch - Spartak's Rodionov, the rest being Ukrainians, a Belarussian and a Tatar.

The broadcast yesterday was a "live broadcast" (with the then commentator). He found it was too difficult to say "the USSR players" so he switched to "Russians", admitting that there were actually barely Russians on the pitch.

On the linesmen: they twice gave offside when it was far from offside. And the discussion is still ongoing. People are even analyzing the data (if you google it).

[Burt]

Shame Sky wasn't around at that time... It would have shown both goals were offside from 25 different angles, and had 6 pundits rabbiting on about it just for good measure.

[Pata]

Is the commentary in Flemish or French? "Sovietiques" in the latter could be a bit of a mouthful, I suppose.

Yeah, the camera angles are such that the decisions could be left open to debate; however, Bessonov claims to have footage that clearly shows that Ceulemans was three metres offside when the ball was played. Never seen any clips of that, though.

That was a real opportunity missed for the Soviet team, though. Had such high expectations and justifiably so, as the Euros two years later showed as well. Another team that never recovered after that world cup was Hungary. They were ranked 2nd in the world going into the tournament - beat loads of strong teams in friendlies. When Soviet Union hammered them 6-0, that was the end of Hungarian football. Had a good chat about this when I was in Budapest 3 years ago. They haven't qualified for a tournament since.

[sipwell]

We can't change the outcome anyway, even if Bessonov would be right. Three metres however sounds like a good old Communist exaggeration  :005:

Commentary was in Flemish. And it would have been "Soviet Russians" any way. 

[Pata]

We can't change the outcome anyway, even if Bessonov would be right. Three metres however sounds like a good old Communist exaggeration  :005:

Commentary was in Flemish. And it would have been "Soviet Russians" any way. 

Conspiracy theorists also point to the fact that the lino was Spanish and the winners of the game were due to meet Spain in the quarters. Naturally, Spain would've preferred to play Belgium rather than the USSR. Didn't help them in the end, though.

[sipwell]

We can't change the outcome anyway, even if Bessonov would be right. Three metres however sounds like a good old Communist exaggeration  :005:

Commentary was in Flemish. And it would have been "Soviet Russians" any way. 

Conspiracy theorists also point to the fact that the lino was Spanish and the winners of the game were due to meet Spain in the quarters. Naturally, Spain would've preferred to play Belgium rather than the USSR. Didn't help them in the end, though.

He wouldn't have raised his flag then, would he?

[Pata]

We can't change the outcome anyway, even if Bessonov would be right. Three metres however sounds like a good old Communist exaggeration  :005:

Commentary was in Flemish. And it would have been "Soviet Russians" any way. 

Conspiracy theorists also point to the fact that the lino was Spanish and the winners of the game were due to meet Spain in the quarters. Naturally, Spain would've preferred to play Belgium rather than the USSR. Didn't help them in the end, though.

He wouldn't have raised his flag then, would he?

Just forgot what he was doing for a second. :)