Get behind Jol...same old story every year

[Tonywa]

We looked poor, but as someone else posted - just look at Stoke's home record.  I haven't liked some of MJ's tactics or team selections, but he's still getting the team to play in the manner he wants.  We had exactly the same thing last season with Sparky and a couple of years back with Woy. I think we've got a pretty strong squad with some promising youngsters beginning to make their presence felt.  I would be very surprised if we continued to struggle for the rest of
the season.

[DukeTyrion]

Well, it's a forum, so I guess all views are welcome.

At least it's better than the official forums. At least on here people debate and often take interest in each other's posts, even if they don't agree, rather than just shouting them down and throwing toys.

As it goes, I am firmly on the 'give Jol time' side, as I can see some good things being introduced into the squad, but at the same time I can understand how people would find that lack of scoring chances at Stoke very frustrating.

[ImperialWhite]

Exactly!

Last season: Boxing Day relegation zone --> second highest finish ever come May.

And that was with Mark "Fulham FC is beneath me" Hughes...  :hook:

I've been wondering: when exactly did Hughes say that? And to whom?

He said that to me personally, in the pub - he goes to my local occasionally.

Well no, he didn't, that's how I'm interpretting the very strange case of affaires last June, because despite him being a good manager, I never warmed to him like I did with Hodgson. I think Hughes wanted to manage a club big enough (like Villa) that when Fergie retires, he can go back to his old club.

But my Fulham buddy agrees with you - that he was somehow pushed out in such away that Al Fayed would dodge the fans' ire. But I can't square that with him saying:

"As a young, ambitious manager I wish to move on to further my experiences".

Surely if he was 'pushed' he would have at least hinted that he didn't feel wanted, or even say it straight?

[Meerkat]

We have had the same situation for the last three years it doesn't help we have had as many managers in as many years, so no stability, so we have to start all over again at the start of the season.  I don't warm to Jol but like all the other managers it is going to take time, hopefully by Christmas we will turn the corner meanwhile we need to do enough to stay clear of the relegation spots. :001:

[aussierod]

With regards to warming to managers, I vaguely remember most fans typical respone to hodgsons appointment as one of disappointment, who is this manager who hasnt managed in England for 20years and managed a few small international sides and a load of Scandanavian clubs, the only highlight being a stint at Inter. Lets look at things in perspective, Hodgson is a wonderful manager with working with limited resources, he structures his sides to be very hard to beat and look to get a 1-0 win. We had a team full of old pro's who he gave a chance to shine and they repaid him with interest. That being said, he spent a lot of money on one Andy Johnson who previously a recent history of injuries and little goals but after a shaky start, Hodgson made us a hard team to beat (we had a consistent back line which conceded the 4th least goals) but we offered little going forward and was full of old pros. Hughes came in and looked to press higher up the pitch and attack teams whilst not tinkering with this stong defensive record. Jol has got the remit to bring in younger players (can anyone ever imagine Hodgson signing and starting a 19yr old Kasami let alone playing a 17yr old Frei against Chelsea). Jol has brought in Ruiz who has so far failed to adapt but also brought in some exciting younger players who we all cant wait to get their time to shine. The team has changed and evolved, both through injuries, tactics and priorities, with every match and we have tried to play a fluid attacking style, which the players may not have grasped fully as yet, but so long as we continue our strong home form and given more time to bed in the tactics, we can push on further. The weekend was disappointing, but it was away to a team with a strong home record, who had few international players whilst our players went away with their respective countries, and we just didnt show up. If we lost to Everton at home 2-0 I would be much more disappointed but, touch wood, this won't happen
Jol isnt the greatest manager to grace the game, but he's close to the best we can possibly attract and is looking to play a younger team and more fluid attacking football, potentially similar to the Tigana days

[BalDrick]

I'm finding this very hard to type but I'm sorry, it needs saying.

Stoke are a good side.

God I feel unclean now. Problem is, they are. They're not particularly good at inspiring comparisons to Brazil 1970 etc, but they are, sad to say, good at securing points at home. Better sides than us will lose there this season, indeed probably already have done.

We all have several reasons for disliking them, not least of which the fact they couldn't restrain themselves from reverting to type in an end-of-season game which, to my dying day, I will claim affected us for the final. Their fans are lowest of the low, the less said about the manager the better and they pay that thug Wilkinson, but it needs saying - I'm not going to type it twice, just read above.

[aussierod]

I'm finding this very hard to type but I'm sorry, it needs saying.

Stoke are a good side.

God I feel unclean now. Problem is, they are. They're not particularly good at inspiring comparisons to Brazil 1970 etc, but they are, sad to say, good at securing points at home. Better sides than us will lose there this season, indeed probably already have done.

We all have several reasons for disliking them, not least of which the fact they couldn't restrain themselves from reverting to type in an end-of-season game which, to my dying day, I will claim affected us for the final. Their fans are lowest of the low, the less said about the manager the better and they pay that thug Wilkinson, but it needs saying - I'm not going to type it twice, just read above.

+1 (although like you, very much hate to admit it)

[MJG]

With regards to warming to managers, I vaguely remember most fans typical respone to hodgsons appointment as one of disappointment, who is this manager who hasnt managed in England for 20years and managed a few small international sides and a load of Scandanavian clubs, the only highlight being a stint at Inter. Lets look at things in perspective, Hodgson is a wonderful manager with working with limited resources, he structures his sides to be very hard to beat and look to get a 1-0 win. We had a team full of old pro's who he gave a chance to shine and they repaid him with interest. That being said, he spent a lot of money on one Andy Johnson who previously a recent history of injuries and little goals but after a shaky start, Hodgson made us a hard team to beat (we had a consistent back line which conceded the 4th least goals) but we offered little going forward and was full of old pros. Hughes came in and looked to press higher up the pitch and attack teams whilst not tinkering with this stong defensive record. Jol has got the remit to bring in younger players (can anyone ever imagine Hodgson signing and starting a 19yr old Kasami let alone playing a 17yr old Frei against Chelsea). Jol has brought in Ruiz who has so far failed to adapt but also brought in some exciting younger players who we all cant wait to get their time to shine. The team has changed and evolved, both through injuries, tactics and priorities, with every match and we have tried to play a fluid attacking style, which the players may not have grasped fully as yet, but so long as we continue our strong home form and given more time to bed in the tactics, we can push on further. The weekend was disappointing, but it was away to a team with a strong home record, who had few international players whilst our players went away with their respective countries, and we just didnt show up. If we lost to Everton at home 2-0 I would be much more disappointed but, touch wood, this won't happen
Jol isnt the greatest manager to grace the game, but he's close to the best we can possibly attract and is looking to play a younger team and more fluid attacking football, potentially similar to the Tigana days

While I agree with a lot of that and the fact Jol has brought in other players..on Saturday we had 9 players on the pitch at the same time who have been here for 4 years. That I believe is the problem we have now. Changes are going on but that hard core group of starters is not changing and while I prefer evolution to revolution, away from home we are not going to change unless at least half that starting group is dumped.

[Burt]

I'm finding this very hard to type but I'm sorry, it needs saying.

Stoke are a good side.

God I feel unclean now. Problem is, they are. They're not particularly good at inspiring comparisons to Brazil 1970 etc, but they are, sad to say, good at securing points at home. Better sides than us will lose there this season, indeed probably already have done.

We all have several reasons for disliking them, not least of which the fact they couldn't restrain themselves from reverting to type in an end-of-season game which, to my dying day, I will claim affected us for the final. Their fans are lowest of the low, the less said about the manager the better and they pay that thug Wilkinson, but it needs saying - I'm not going to type it twice, just read above.

I agree and said as much in one of the pre-match threads. Pulis is no mug, they made some astute signings in the last window, and whilst they can be hard and physical they also do play football on occasion. They are not a walk-over, particularly at home, and given our abysmal away record I am not sure why we felt that we were odds-on to win. That being said, it would have been better to go down all guns blazing rather than with a whimper.

[Burt]

With regards to warming to managers, I vaguely remember most fans typical respone to hodgsons appointment as one of disappointment, who is this manager who hasnt managed in England for 20years and managed a few small international sides and a load of Scandanavian clubs, the only highlight being a stint at Inter. Lets look at things in perspective, Hodgson is a wonderful manager with working with limited resources, he structures his sides to be very hard to beat and look to get a 1-0 win. We had a team full of old pro's who he gave a chance to shine and they repaid him with interest. That being said, he spent a lot of money on one Andy Johnson who previously a recent history of injuries and little goals but after a shaky start, Hodgson made us a hard team to beat (we had a consistent back line which conceded the 4th least goals) but we offered little going forward and was full of old pros. Hughes came in and looked to press higher up the pitch and attack teams whilst not tinkering with this stong defensive record. Jol has got the remit to bring in younger players (can anyone ever imagine Hodgson signing and starting a 19yr old Kasami let alone playing a 17yr old Frei against Chelsea). Jol has brought in Ruiz who has so far failed to adapt but also brought in some exciting younger players who we all cant wait to get their time to shine. The team has changed and evolved, both through injuries, tactics and priorities, with every match and we have tried to play a fluid attacking style, which the players may not have grasped fully as yet, but so long as we continue our strong home form and given more time to bed in the tactics, we can push on further. The weekend was disappointing, but it was away to a team with a strong home record, who had few international players whilst our players went away with their respective countries, and we just didnt show up. If we lost to Everton at home 2-0 I would be much more disappointed but, touch wood, this won't happen
Jol isnt the greatest manager to grace the game, but he's close to the best we can possibly attract and is looking to play a younger team and more fluid attacking football, potentially similar to the Tigana days

While I agree with a lot of that and the fact Jol has brought in other players..on Saturday we had 9 players on the pitch at the same time who have been here for 4 years. That I believe is the problem we have now. Changes are going on but that hard core group of starters is not changing and while I prefer evolution to revolution, away from home we are not going to change unless at least half that starting group is dumped.

I think there is something to this.

Our away form has been awful for a long time, and is stopping us becoming a regular top 10 side (given we tend to be strong at home).

Something needs to be done... Successive managers have tried and failed. Not sure what the answer is. I hope Jol does. But as you say Mr MJG perhaps we need to use some of the newbies who don't carry this baggage with them.

[aussierod]

In fairness, we were unlucky to not get the win up at the Hawthorns a few weeks ago, the same side to beat Wolves at home on the weekend. I'm hoping the game against Stoke is just a blip and a game which doesnt suit our style, ie a physical, long ball, set piece type game.
I'm happy with the evolution approach, as to be honest, I'm not sure who within the new batch (or those not in the weekends XI) would really add to us getting a win, and if Jol does have the old-guard offside with his approach/rotations, not playing them isnt going to add to a more harmonious squad. The XI we played are close to our strongest side, they just disappointed us and themselves. I'm going to, perhaps naively, put it down to the fact most of our squad were away playing internationals midweek eg Dempsey playing 2 worthless friendlies, whereas I'd say few within Stoke were away and could concentrate for 2 weeks on playing the mighty Whites

[BalDrick]

'I'm hoping the game against Stoke is just a blip and a game which doesnt suit our style, ie a physical, long ball, set piece type game.'

Problem is, most opposing managers (and at the moment I don't know who's next up) will have the nous to watch a video of our game and set their team up to do a similar job. Which in fact might be why we're perennially better against the better sides (who feel they're above changing their system) than against the cloggers.

[MJG]

In fairness, we were unlucky to not get the win up at the Hawthorns a few weeks ago, the same side to beat Wolves at home on the weekend. I'm hoping the game against Stoke is just a blip and a game which doesnt suit our style, ie a physical, long ball, set piece type game.
I'm happy with the evolution approach, as to be honest, I'm not sure who within the new batch (or those not in the weekends XI) would really add to us getting a win, and if Jol does have the old-guard offside with his approach/rotations, not playing them isnt going to add to a more harmonious squad. The XI we played are close to our strongest side, they just disappointed us and themselves. I'm going to, perhaps naively, put it down to the fact most of our squad were away playing internationals midweek eg Dempsey playing 2 worthless friendlies, whereas I'd say few within Stoke were away and could concentrate for 2 weeks on playing the mighty Whites

Fitness allowing you could have a front six of: Frei-Gecov-Sidwell(been here less than a year)-Kasami; Ruiz & Sa.  avergae age 22.6 against the starting lineup (front 6) on sat of average age 29 and when duff was on it was 30.33.

Player for player they may not be better, but youth, energy and a fresh mindset, I think is what needed away.

[horse1031]

I have a strange feeling that with Martin at the helm that we are going to be a team of inconsistency.  Since Jol loves to attack so much we have the possibility of beating any team home or away.  In a way he is the opposite of Roy in that he likes to attack and relies on individual talent and one on one skill compared to keeping shape all the time.  The back four has been subbed in and out and it is hard to get continuity when he is doing that all the time.  This is turn makes us very inconsistent because there will be games where we attack and we put 3 goals in and there will be times when we arent finishing and we lose 1-0 to Swansea.

I dont know which way is better but with Martin it will probably be more fun to watch.  At the end of the day, both Roy's tactics and Martin's tactics will keep us from going down.  Jols side will score more goals but at the same time let in way more goals.  Roy's teams didnt score very much but we kept a lot of clean sheets.

I do believe that we have more talent than we have ever had and our attacking players are much better than they were at this time last year  (Bobby was hurt).  It is a good time to play Everton because they are really struggling at the moment.  Its at home so we need to get a result.  Hopefully Saha doesnt come back to haunt us :002:

[aussierod]

Totally agree with you Horse, I think Jol looks to win more games rather than draw games which was Hodgsons style (possibly due to the limitations of our players, however Jol has a slightly better squad) but I much prefer Jols more attacking philosophy. It will mean we will lose more games, but we will also win more games, so lets say out of 5 draws we lose 3 and win 2, we are still better off points wise. At the moment, I think teams are stealing points off us, eg Villa & West Brom, rather than us stealing points off others (although Man City may fall into this category)