Put the argument to bed.

[Reindeer]

Hughes had a 93% pass rate on saturday..not bad for a hoofer.

A lot of those were achieved by midfielders dropping back to receive the ball.  During your 35 years, you must has seen the odd "Zamora ball" in your time?

[Reindeer]

We failed to score in ten away games last year.  Toothless at the front, not the back.

The debate is a popularity contest and not based on any statistics.  Both defenders in question had similar records last year and offer the same sort of protection at the back.

If people were being honest, they'd just say "I like Hughes more than Senderos" and not invent some phony BS about Senderos.  It's not fair on the player and it's actually rubbish too if you check the stats.

One thing I would say is that Heitinga replaced fans favourite Jagielka at Everton last year and ended up being their player of the season.  He was also on the bench last night and Jagielka had a stormer. 

Competition is good and it would be great if we got behind ALL of the players.

I dont think anyone has made up stats or used BS as you put it, more of an opinion. Its about confidence and Big Phil failed to do that for the fans. I think it was because of his reputation at AFC but all i know is, I prefer Hughes because I like how spacially aware he is. No stat, no BS just an old fashioned defender who fits in well within the team.

Within this thread, I don't think anyone has slammed or put him down at all, so the only person with the problem is you Reindeer. I simply wanted to see what the fans views are after a similar debate occured last night. And as for your reference to Everton, that bears no fruit here seeing as it is a very different scenario.

The debate ended with Hughes coming out on top but that was due to his record and history which I think also stems to something AlFayedschequebook says, his reputation or infamous reputation that is at FFC unjust.

And regarding get behind all our players, please find somewhere that actually puts a player down, this is merely about our best 11 not the squad depth so again a redundant argument.

I've heard Senderos heckled throughout a game and Kelly perform worse and not get a mention. I also watch Hughes out-jumped twice at Goodison and the same thing, not a word.

I prefer Senderos at the back based on the following: Chelsea away, Liverpool, Arsenal and Wigan at home.  Phil played a big part in all of those games and certainly affected the outcome.  He is certainly more in line with Jol's idea of attacking football and doesn't rely on the hoof up top.

To be honest, some of the fans wouldn't know a good player if he come along and bit them on the arse.  There is a heard mentality (note the sea-change of opinion on Jol) and unfortunately Phil is bang in the line of vision of the haters.  Jol likes him and judging by the celebrations for his goal last year, so do the players.

All I can take from your statement is that you like Phil over Hughes based on 4 performances and Phil gets a hard time and Hughes doesn't.

The FFC fans are nothing to go by, look at the disgraceful chants against Clint. I could point at our incline of form since Hughes got a starting place last season and well, the entire season where we got to the europa final. Your argument again falls flat and your missing the point of it but fair enough, you would play Senderos, thats your prerogative.

I guess I will have to state this again THIS THREAD ISN'T SLATING BIG PHIL AT ALL. Its about team selection. My stance stays, Phil is a good competitive fringe player and Hughes curently is our 2nd choice defender on the team sheet. I follow Phil on twitter and Hughes, they are both good role models and your right, he doesn't deserve the stick he gets from the brain deads on the side line.

Last thing, to say Hughes 'rely on the hoof up top.' just shows your understanding of his game, a completely inaccurate and disrespectful tone in describing a great club servant.
[/quot

We failed to score in ten away games last year.  Toothless at the front, not the back.

The debate is a popularity contest and not based on any statistics.  Both defenders in question had similar records last year and offer the same sort of protection at the back.

If people were being honest, they'd just say "I like Hughes more than Senderos" and not invent some phony BS about Senderos.  It's not fair on the player and it's actually rubbish too if you check the stats.

One thing I would say is that Heitinga replaced fans favourite Jagielka at Everton last year and ended up being their player of the season.  He was also on the bench last night and Jagielka had a stormer. 

Competition is good and it would be great if we got behind ALL of the players.

I dont think anyone has made up stats or used BS as you put it, more of an opinion. Its about confidence and Big Phil failed to do that for the fans. I think it was because of his reputation at AFC but all i know is, I prefer Hughes because I like how spacially aware he is. No stat, no BS just an old fashioned defender who fits in well within the team.

Within this thread, I don't think anyone has slammed or put him down at all, so the only person with the problem is you Reindeer. I simply wanted to see what the fans views are after a similar debate occured last night. And as for your reference to Everton, that bears no fruit here seeing as it is a very different scenario.

The debate ended with Hughes coming out on top but that was due to his record and history which I think also stems to something AlFayedschequebook says, his reputation or infamous reputation that is at FFC unjust.

And regarding get behind all our players, please find somewhere that actually puts a player down, this is merely about our best 11 not the squad depth so again a redundant argument.

I've heard Senderos heckled throughout a game and Kelly perform worse and not get a mention. I also watch Hughes out-jumped twice at Goodison and the same thing, not a word.

I prefer Senderos at the back based on the following: Chelsea away, Liverpool, Arsenal and Wigan at home.  Phil played a big part in all of those games and certainly affected the outcome.  He is certainly more in line with Jol's idea of attacking football and doesn't rely on the hoof up top.

To be honest, some of the fans wouldn't know a good player if he come along and bit them on the arse.  There is a heard mentality (note the sea-change of opinion on Jol) and unfortunately Phil is bang in the line of vision of the haters.  Jol likes him and judging by the celebrations for his goal last year, so do the players.

All I can take from your statement is that you like Phil over Hughes based on 4 performances and Phil gets a hard time and Hughes doesn't.

The FFC fans are nothing to go by, look at the disgraceful chants against Clint. I could point at our incline of form since Hughes got a starting place last season and well, the entire season where we got to the europa final. Your argument again falls flat and your missing the point of it but fair enough, you would play Senderos, thats your prerogative.

I guess I will have to state this again THIS THREAD ISN'T SLATING BIG PHIL AT ALL. Its about team selection. My stance stays, Phil is a good competitive fringe player and Hughes curently is our 2nd choice defender on the team sheet. I follow Phil on twitter and Hughes, they are both good role models and your right, he doesn't deserve the stick he gets from the brain deads on the side line.

Last thing, to say Hughes 'rely on the hoof up top.' just shows your understanding of his game, a completely inaccurate and disrespectful tone in describing a great club servant.

What's the matter, not getting the Hughes love-in you expected?  Hughes is a great player and I admire him immensely, but when it comes to playing out of defense, he takes a no nonsense approach, which I called a hoof, but in hindsight should have call a defensive clearance.

I don't see Senderos as a fringe player, I see him as someone a defense can be built around and is the younger of the two.

[FFC1987]

Hughes had a 93% pass rate on saturday..not bad for a hoofer.

A lot of those were achieved by midfielders dropping back to receive the ball.  During your 35 years, you must has seen the odd "Zamora ball" in your time?

So clarify for me, are long balls to strikers a bad sign of a football player? If answered Yes, check out some stats on senderos who has a high percentage of completed long range passes. take what you want from the stat but Hughes is far from a 'Hoofer' I'm still baffled I read it....

[MJG]

Hughes had a 93% pass rate on saturday..not bad for a hoofer.

A lot of those were achieved by midfielders dropping back to receive the ball.  During your 35 years, you must has seen the odd "Zamora ball" in your time?

yep, saw many by Konchesky, Brede, Hughes, Senderos, Kelly, Pantsil, etc etc.
As for the ball to midfielder as a short pass, that is just part of the game now. The premier lge games are producing lots more passing and a lot is just short passes back and forth between defenders and midfielders. Proves nothing.
I don't dispute that Senderos is a better passer than Hughes, what I do dispute is he's a better defender.

Football is all about opinions and its a pity you don't show more respect to posters just because they have different view than you.

[fulhamben]

there is nothing wrong with the ocassional hoof. if murphy had done it in the europa final we might have got to pens

[Reindeer]

Hughes had a 93% pass rate on saturday..not bad for a hoofer.

A lot of those were achieved by midfielders dropping back to receive the ball.  During your 35 years, you must has seen the odd "Zamora ball" in your time?

So clarify for me, are long balls to strikers a bad sign of a football player? If answered Yes, check out some stats on senderos who has a high percentage of completed long range passes. take what you want from the stat but Hughes is far from a 'Hoofer' I'm still baffled I read it....

Long balls are not signs of bad play, that's why teams like Bolton, Stoke and the like tend to get decent results.  Not my cup of tea, but there you go.  

OK Hughes isn't a hoofer the same way Senderos is not a liability at the back as some people think.  We are blessed to have a number of great options at the back, but our trouble is our away form, in particular, the lack of goals and opportunities.

[FFC1987]

Hughes had a 93% pass rate on saturday..not bad for a hoofer.

A lot of those were achieved by midfielders dropping back to receive the ball.  During your 35 years, you must has seen the odd "Zamora ball" in your time?

So clarify for me, are long balls to strikers a bad sign of a football player? If answered Yes, check out some stats on senderos who has a high percentage of completed long range passes. take what you want from the stat but Hughes is far from a 'Hoofer' I'm still baffled I read it....

Long balls are not signs of bad play, that's why teams like Bolton, Stoke and the like tend to get decent results.  Not my cup of tea, but there you go. 

OK Hughes isn't a hoofer the same way Senderos is not a liability at the back as some people think.  We are blessed to have a number of great options at the back, but our trouble is our away form, in particular, the lack of goals and opportunities.

Point here is, no one has disagreed that. You're the one who seems to think we have some hidden agenda on Phil when, all we are saying he, he's decent but we prefer Hughes.

[Rupert]

You know, I was reading this debate, when suddenly it turned into an arguement. After reading it back, I don't see why.
The original poster prefers one player, others agree, others disagree. There is no need for anyone to call anyone else out for expressing a preference, or alleging that anyone has any sort of problem with others expressing different choices.
I have said I would give Hughes the berth in the first eleven, but it would be a very close call, and who knows, I may have changed my mind by the end of the month.

Can I ask all of you to take a deep breath, and remember this is a message board on which we are allowed to disagree with eachother without getting touchy about it. Especially on a subject like this, where there is no way of proving who is "right" and who is "wrong".
So long as we do well, I don't care who is on the pitch.

[Lighthouse]

You know, I was reading this debate, when suddenly it turned into an arguement. After reading it back, I don't see why.
The original poster prefers one player, others agree, others disagree. There is no need for anyone to call anyone else out for expressing a preference, or alleging that anyone has any sort of problem with others expressing different choices.
I have said I would give Hughes the berth in the first eleven, but it would be a very close call, and who knows, I may have changed my mind by the end of the month.

Can I ask all of you to take a deep breath, and remember this is a message board on which we are allowed to disagree with eachother without getting touchy about it. Especially on a subject like this, where there is no way of proving who is "right" and who is "wrong".
So long as we do well, I don't care who is on the pitch.

:58: Cannot hold breath for much longer, feeling dizzy, can I let it out yet? AHHHHHHHHH.

Now to add to the debate. If both players had a bucket full of water but both buckets had a hole in them.  Whose bucket would be empty first?

[FFC1987]

You know, I was reading this debate, when suddenly it turned into an arguement. After reading it back, I don't see why.
The original poster prefers one player, others agree, others disagree. There is no need for anyone to call anyone else out for expressing a preference, or alleging that anyone has any sort of problem with others expressing different choices.
I have said I would give Hughes the berth in the first eleven, but it would be a very close call, and who knows, I may have changed my mind by the end of the month.

Can I ask all of you to take a deep breath, and remember this is a message board on which we are allowed to disagree with eachother without getting touchy about it. Especially on a subject like this, where there is no way of proving who is "right" and who is "wrong".
So long as we do well, I don't care who is on the pitch.

Fair point, it got shirty because people put words in others mouths. It got my back up with the disrespect to Hughes too but fair enough, its his opinion.

Point of the thread was to get opinions on Senderos and Hughes across, not sling mud. Its a shame it got subjected to that.

[GoldCoastWhite]

You know, I was reading this debate, when suddenly it turned into an arguement. After reading it back, I don't see why.
The original poster prefers one player, others agree, others disagree. There is no need for anyone to call anyone else out for expressing a preference, or alleging that anyone has any sort of problem with others expressing different choices.
I have said I would give Hughes the berth in the first eleven, but it would be a very close call, and who knows, I may have changed my mind by the end of the month.

Can I ask all of you to take a deep breath, and remember this is a message board on which we are allowed to disagree with eachother without getting touchy about it. Especially on a subject like this, where there is no way of proving who is "right" and who is "wrong".
So long as we do well, I don't care who is on the pitch.

Rupert, I'm starting to think you may be as wise a bear as Pooh !  :take a bow:

[SouthfieldWhite]

As others have said, it's all about opinions and people should respect that even if you disagree, anyway Reindeer you're talking shite Hughes is much better
:hook:

[MJG]

You know, I was reading this debate, when suddenly it turned into an arguement. After reading it back, I don't see why.
The original poster prefers one player, others agree, others disagree. There is no need for anyone to call anyone else out for expressing a preference, or alleging that anyone has any sort of problem with others expressing different choices.
I have said I would give Hughes the berth in the first eleven, but it would be a very close call, and who knows, I may have changed my mind by the end of the month.

Can I ask all of you to take a deep breath, and remember this is a message board on which we are allowed to disagree with eachother without getting touchy about it. Especially on a subject like this, where there is no way of proving who is "right" and who is "wrong".
So long as we do well, I don't care who is on the pitch.

:58: Cannot hold breath for much longer, feeling dizzy, can I let it out yet? AHHHHHHHHH.

Now to add to the debate. If both players had a bucket full of water but both buckets had a hole in them.  Whose bucket would be empty first?

Senderos's because he is the Frank Spencer of CB's and would obviously slip on a banana skin and fall down the stairs spilling the water and throwing the bucket in the air which would land on poor Martin Jol's head.

[Berserker]

You know, I was reading this debate, when suddenly it turned into an arguement. After reading it back, I don't see why.
The original poster prefers one player, others agree, others disagree. There is no need for anyone to call anyone else out for expressing a preference, or alleging that anyone has any sort of problem with others expressing different choices.
I have said I would give Hughes the berth in the first eleven, but it would be a very close call, and who knows, I may have changed my mind by the end of the month.

Can I ask all of you to take a deep breath, and remember this is a message board on which we are allowed to disagree with eachother without getting touchy about it. Especially on a subject like this, where there is no way of proving who is "right" and who is "wrong".
So long as we do well, I don't care who is on the pitch.

:58: Cannot hold breath for much longer, feeling dizzy, can I let it out yet? AHHHHHHHHH.

Now to add to the debate. If both players had a bucket full of water but both buckets had a hole in them.  Whose bucket would be empty first?

Senderos's because he is the Frank Spencer of CB's and would obviously slip on a banana skin and fall down the stairs spilling the water and throwing the bucket in the air which would land on poor Martin Jol's head.

Depends who had the heavy water in it (H202)

[epsomraver]

You know, I was reading this debate, when suddenly it turned into an arguement. After reading it back, I don't see why.
The original poster prefers one player, others agree, others disagree. There is no need for anyone to call anyone else out for expressing a preference, or alleging that anyone has any sort of problem with others expressing different choices.
I have said I would give Hughes the berth in the first eleven, but it would be a very close call, and who knows, I may have changed my mind by the end of the month.

Can I ask all of you to take a deep breath, and remember this is a message board on which we are allowed to disagree with eachother without getting touchy about it. Especially on a subject like this, where there is no way of proving who is "right" and who is "wrong".
So long as we do well, I don't care who is on the pitch.

:58: Cannot hold breath for much longer, feeling dizzy, can I let it out yet? AHHHHHHHHH.

Now to add to the debate. If both players had a bucket full of water but both buckets had a hole in them.  Whose bucket would be empty first?

Senderos's because he is the Frank Spencer of CB's and would obviously slip on a banana skin and fall down the stairs spilling the water and throwing the bucket in the air which would land on poor Martin Jol's head.

Might knock some sense into him or jolt his top set in so he can open his mouth when he speaks :hook:

[itombomb]

Hughes is a better defender than Senderos (who isn't in any way bad, but prone to brainfarts), the way he marshalled Holt on Saturday was a great thing to see, but you could clearly see how uncomfortable he was on the ball half the time, having to go back to Schwarzer or force one of the midfielders really deep to take it off him.

If the Douglas stuff is true, I expect we are signing him to start, we don't have a target man and want to play it out from the back all day long. Unfortunately Hughes can make that slightly difficult.

[Bassey the warrior]

Hughes shades it but Douglas is better than both.

[HatterDon]

Hughes shades it but Douglas is better than both.

Well, since we haven't seen Douglas partner Hangeland, and we have seen both Hughes and Senderos ... .

I agree that both Senderos and Hughes are class. I agree that Hughes shades it over Senderos, but that's to be expected since they've played so long together. I think we're in great shape at CB. If we're signing this guy, I think that either Aaron or Big Phil might be on their way. If that's the case, I think the best bet to go is Aaron.