Are we looking at the CM problem the wrong way

[L-Wizzy]

Jol is trying to move us away from the murphy style of playmaker (sitting deep and spraying passes), and move us to an advance playmaker like ruiz,
This is how the dutch used to play, they played that way in the 2010 world cup

They used a 4-2-3-1 formation with 2 sitting midfielders (MVB and NDJ) and an advanced playmaker (mainly sneijder but sometimes rotated with VDV),  the sitting midfielders were not playmakers they were tough tackling and won the ball and passed to the anvanced playmaker.

But with LVG the new dutch manager, it seems like he is bringing through the youth, (ie. Strootman, Classie, Narsingh etc.) And changing the way they play back to total football.

I feel we need to move on from 'trying to find a murphy replacement' and realise that Ruiz is that replacement and we are using the old dutch method of 2 sitting tackling midfielders and and advanced playmaker.

[HatterDon]

Interesting analysis. Thanks.

[Rupert]

Yes, very good post.

[A Humble Man]

I do not think our defensive problems are anything to do with the change of system I just think Hughes and Hangeland are not the players they were a MS is showing frailty.  like you I do think we need more than one new midfielder but we do need at least two new centre backs and a keeper in January.  We then are almost invisible.

[TonyGilroy]

I do not think our defensive problems are anything to do with the change of system I just think Hughes and Hangeland are not the players they were a MS is showing frailty.  like you I do think we need more than one new midfielder but we do need at least two new centre backs and a keeper in January.  We then are almost invisible.

Invisible?

We won't be buying two CBs and a keeper in January. Hangeland may want to move on in the summer and it's probably then that Jol will have to decide if Mark has another season in him and, if not, if Stockdale is good enough.

The 2nd and 3rd goals conceded at Reading were deflections where Reading got lucky and the delivery into the area by Southampton was actually rather good.

The more we attack the less bodies are available to help in defence. I'm not convinced that wholesale replacements are necessary.

[zzamora]

 :clap_hands:

Excellent post, and you've got it bang on.

[Ordar]

Good post. the 4231 formation was what Jol was trying to implement before we lost Dembele. We then resorted to effectively 442 to make us more solid until we sorted things out (a good move). The first half of the season has been a bit experimental to see how we can change things to suit the players we have. Our current best line up actually favours the 4231

Reither  Hughes  Hangland  Riise
         
           Baird      Diarra

Dejagah      Ruiz           Duff

              Berbatov

I think Jol's handling the transition well, and is bringing in the right players to fit the system he wants to play. I dont think we'll do too much in Jan, possibly a midfielder is anyone is available. Next summer will be interesting though.

Would be nice to line up next season with a starting 11 similar to:

             Stekelenburg

Reither   Douglas  Mbiwa    Riise

            Diarra     Moussa Sissoko

Dejagah       Ruiz          Kacaniklic   

                Berbatov

Now thats a team!! Douglas, Mbiwa, Sissoko are all out of contract in the summer, Stekelenburg would be around 6 mil. I'd be very very happy with that side. Plus we'd have a much younger first 11!

[Boggers]

Good post. the 4231 formation was what Jol was trying to implement before we lost Dembele. We then resorted to effectively 442 to make us more solid until we sorted things out (a good move). The first half of the season has been a bit experimental to see how we can change things to suit the players we have. Our current best line up actually favours the 4231

Reither  Hughes  Hangland  Riise
         
           Baird      Diarra

Dejagah      Ruiz           Duff

              Berbatov

I think Jol's handling the transition well, and is bringing in the right players to fit the system he wants to play. I dont think we'll do too much in Jan, possibly a midfielder is anyone is available. Next summer will be interesting though.

Would be nice to line up next season with a starting 11 similar to:

             Stekelenburg

Reither   Douglas  Mbiwa    Riise

            Diarra     Moussa Sissoko

Dejagah       Ruiz          Kacaniklic   

                Berbatov

Now thats a team!! Douglas, Mbiwa, Sissoko are all out of contract in the summer, Stekelenburg would be around 6 mil. I'd be very very happy with that side. Plus we'd have a much younger first 11!

Good post Mr Whizzy, and Mr Ordar...I am salivating at thought of watching that team next year  :004:

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

I do not think our defensive problems are anything to do with the change of system I just think Hughes and Hangeland are not the players they were a MS is showing frailty.  like you I do think we need more than one new midfielder but we do need at least two new centre backs and a keeper in January.  We then are almost invisible.

That's a bit harsh. We are not conceding many from general play, just too many from corners and free kicks plus we are a bit more vulnerable to balls lumped down the middle. Hangeland and Schwarzer do need to be more positive in these situations and attack the ball rather than reacting and we need to be more organised and alert. We don't need any panic buys in January. If we can pick up some long term replacements then fine otherwise these three will easily see us through to the end of the season if not beyond.

[JackyFulham90]

I think we have decent options in the middle, yes losing Dembele was a huge blow but Diarra is a quality player we also have Baird & Sidwell who are good players, Taveras & Karagounis can also do a job I think a decent centre back and a centre mid and we can push for a top 8 finish

[ToodlesMcToot]

Jol is trying to move us away from the murphy style of playmaker (sitting deep and spraying passes), and move us to an advance playmaker like ruiz,
This is how the dutch used to play, they played that way in the 2010 world cup

They used a 4-2-3-1 formation with 2 sitting midfielders (MVB and NDJ) and an advanced playmaker (mainly sneijder but sometimes rotated with VDV),  the sitting midfielders were not playmakers they were tough tackling and won the ball and passed to the anvanced playmaker.

But with LVG the new dutch manager, it seems like he is bringing through the youth, (ie. Strootman, Classie, Narsingh etc.) And changing the way they play back to total football.

I feel we need to move on from 'trying to find a murphy replacement' and realise that Ruiz is that replacement and we are using the old dutch method of 2 sitting tackling midfielders and and advanced playmaker.

No doubt this is true. Murphy's just don't grow on trees and definitely not in our price range. His absence requires change.

Ruiz w two deep lying mids is a great solution. I still believe we need an upgrade in the deep lying mids though...someone young enough to be Diarra's understudy/replacement and someone talented enough to push Baird for his place this season.

[alexbishop]

The trouble with 4-2-3-1 is this gap here:

RB      CB.      CB.       LB
       DM.             DM.
     |                       |
     v.                      v
RW         AM.             LW
              ST
     
Between the DMs and the number 10 (Ruiz)

If Baird and Diarra don't push up Ruiz has to come deep to collect the ball, he then gets crowded by the other teams midfield and loses the ball. Baird and Diarra don't have the same ability to get forward like Dembele. So they need to be able to retain possession, move forward with the ball so Ruiz can collect in a more advanced position where he has more room. Good thing about having a playmaker in the two sitting midfielders is that they can pick a pass to someone in a more advanced position (Smurph)

[A Humble Man]

I do not think our defensive problems are anything to do with the change of system I just think Hughes and Hangeland are not the players they were a MS is showing frailty.  like you I do think we need more than one new midfielder but we do need at least two new centre backs and a keeper in January.  We then are almost invisible.

Invisible?

We won't be buying two CBs and a keeper in January. Hangeland may want to move on in the summer and it's probably then that Jol will have to decide if Mark has another season in him and, if not, if Stockdale is good enough.

The 2nd and 3rd goals conceded at Reading were deflections where Reading got lucky and the delivery into the area by Southampton was actually rather good.

The more we attack the less bodies are available to help in defence. I'm not convinced that wholesale replacements are necessary.

We will be moving so fast across the pitch that we will be invisible.  We will also be invincible. 

[L-Wizzy]

The trouble with 4-2-3-1 is this gap here:

RB      CB.      CB.       LB
       DM.             DM.
     |                       |
     v.                      v
RW         AM.             LW
              ST
     
Between the DMs and the number 10 (Ruiz)

If Baird and Diarra don't push up Ruiz has to come deep to collect the ball, he then gets crowded by the other teams midfield and loses the ball. Baird and Diarra don't have the same ability to get forward like Dembele. So they need to be able to retain possession, move forward with the ball so Ruiz can collect in a more advanced position where he has more room. Good thing about having a playmaker in the two sitting midfielders is that they can pick a pass to someone in a more advanced position (Smurph)

There is only that problem if the wide players do not work hard enough, but the wide players we got all track back and put in effot,

Also the bad thing about having a playmaker in the sitting midfielders is that the play is too deep, is the main man is deep, then the team will be deep to try and receve the ball from him,  reason why we lacked width with RH and MH, but when there is an advanced playmaker this is more effective, its in the part of the pitch where there needs to be a spark, someone to thread a 6 yard through ball, not a 25 yard through ball like murphy did, and the play is quicker when we have an advanced playmaker, also if the sitting midfeilders can't pass to the advanced playmaker, then u would have to question why are they pro footballers, but no disrespect to murphy his good at what he does, but times have changes and we need to move on and not be stuck in the past

[CanadianCottager]

The trouble with 4-2-3-1 is this gap here:

RB      CB.      CB.       LB
       DM.             DM.
     |                       |
     v.                      v
RW         AM.             LW
              ST
     
Between the DMs and the number 10 (Ruiz)

If Baird and Diarra don't push up Ruiz has to come deep to collect the ball, he then gets crowded by the other teams midfield and loses the ball. Baird and Diarra don't have the same ability to get forward like Dembele. So they need to be able to retain possession, move forward with the ball so Ruiz can collect in a more advanced position where he has more room. Good thing about having a playmaker in the two sitting midfielders is that they can pick a pass to someone in a more advanced position (Smurph)

There is only that problem if the wide players do not work hard enough, but the wide players we got all track back and put in effot,

Also the bad thing about having a playmaker in the sitting midfielders is that the play is too deep, is the main man is deep, then the team will be deep to try and receve the ball from him,  reason why we lacked width with RH and MH, but when there is an advanced playmaker this is more effective, its in the part of the pitch where there needs to be a spark, someone to thread a 6 yard through ball, not a 25 yard through ball like murphy did, and the play is quicker when we have an advanced playmaker, also if the sitting midfeilders can't pass to the advanced playmaker, then u would have to question why are they pro footballers, but no disrespect to murphy his good at what he does, but times have changes and we need to move on and not be stuck in the past

I agree that having both a deep and advanced playmaker is superfluous, nonetheless, one of the holding mids needs to be just a little more forward thinking in the 4-2-3-1, otherwise we get a situation like at Southampton where Rodallega and Ruiz got maybe 10 touches combined all game because Baird and Sidwell were lying way too deep and not able to play the ball forward effectively. Diarra does this a bit better and thats why hes a preferred starter, with all our players fit I think its pretty clear that the 4-2-3-1 is our best formation, with a central triangle of Baird-Diarra and Ruiz, we're going to be seeing some dominant midfield performances this year imo.