Safe Standing - never say never...

[Burt]

The main problems that led to standing being unsafe in the past were:
1. Unrestricted numbers of fans in various sections.
2. Insufficient number of barriers to prevent crowd surges.

The safe standing solutions you see in the German league deal with these issues. It is exactly the same as having allocated seats, except the seats are locked up for domestic matches, and locked down for European fixtures. And given there are barriers in each row it is probably safer than the all seaters we see in England!

I personally don't see what the issue is with having a trial in a couple of the grounds, and take it from there. If it works, extend it. If it doesn't, knock it on the head.

[epsomraver]

/new kiosks/New walkways/new facilities. WHERE ?  I would like to know where the club have reduced the access routes to the detriment of crowd flow, some just argue the point for the sake of it.We need more capacity every one keeps saying, the enclosure back to standing would solve this without the high costs of expansion

[Edwatch_Winston_Malone]

It ain't quite as simple as the "safe standing brigade" would have you believe...
[/quote

... perhaps we can move this point forward

As an HSE manager.. let me assure YOU, there is absolutely NOTHING so simple, as standing, or safety. Get your nose out of the rabid DM and get a life.

As a HSE manager interested in football, perhaps I met you at the IOSH Event groups recent Event Safety seminar at Millwall?

www.iosh.co.uk › 11 Oct 2012 – More than 130 health and safety professionals from the events industry gathered at Millwall Football Club

BTW - Andy Ambler was theer, he is the CEO of Millwall and a fromer Finance Director at FFC.  (Don't tell Millwall but he still has a season ticket for the cottage...)
The old Enclosure, in the front of the now renamed JH stand was a purpose built standing area!! It was also safe...!! The fact that people used to smoke and stand in there (for decades!!), seems to have escaped your microscopic gaze. The smoking ban enforced there, is, as much as I hate it, a very necessary piece of legislation, for this type of stand. Although why it is banned in other areas of the ground is a mystery to me and many others.

I have never ventured an opinon on the smoking ban, only pointing out that under the current fire risk assessment for Craven Cottage, it is the highest rated stand.  As a HSE manager you will obviously recognise (if you are familiar with the Safety at Sports ground Act),  that that means it has to be evacuated in less time than the other stands.  This means that the limiting factor for the capacity of this stand is the egress time.  This has been impacted by the many major works that have been undertaken under MAF's tenure in this stand to bring it up to scratch for a modern premiership Stadium.  These include - bigger shop, bigger press facilities, more concessions, more toilets etc etc  All this means that the space available to stand wil not be able to be used if it increases the capacity to that which could not safely agress in the time allowed.
The entry and egress areas of Craven Cottage have not changed in the past 50 years (if not longer), so why is it a problem now? Far bigger crowds have managed to safely negotiate their way in and out of the area before and dare I say, park right their cars right outside the ground and its surrounding streets... The vast majority also managed to stand for the whole match as well, with no ill effects!!!

"Safe Standing", is practised all over the world by many millions of human beings every day... and I am sure that the re-introduction of this very same event, will be seen back on the 'terraces' of Craven Cottage, hopefully sooner rather than later!!

[Edwatch_Winston_Malone]

/new kiosks/New walkways/new facilities. WHERE ?  I would like to know where the club have reduced the access routes to the detriment of crowd flow, some just argue the point for the sake of it.We need more capacity every one keeps saying, the enclosure back to standing would solve this without the high costs of expansion

Ask LBN011 if he has some pictures of the old JH undercroft - you will be amazed at the differences.  Do you really believe that the facilities that were in place during the old third division 5000 attendance days would be sufficient for todays sell out Premirship requirements.  Just look at the shop it is 3 or 4 times bigger than it was in the 70's and as it hasn't been extened into the road it has taken up space inside the undercroft...

[Edwatch_Winston_Malone]

The main problems that led to standing being unsafe in the past were:
1. Unrestricted numbers of fans in various sections.
2. Insufficient number of barriers to prevent crowd surges.

The safe standing solutions you see in the German league deal with these issues. It is exactly the same as having allocated seats, except the seats are locked up for domestic matches, and locked down for European fixtures. And given there are barriers in each row it is probably safer than the all seaters we see in England!

I personally don't see what the issue is with having a trial in a couple of the grounds, and take it from there. If it works, extend it. If it doesn't, knock it on the head.

Perhaps the main arguement against standing areas is not their ability to provide safe areas to stand, but the oporunities it provides for crowd disorder...

[epsomraver]

Wondered when you would bring that irrelevance up.

[LBNo11]

...can you imagine the innate terror of some fans when the majority of Fulham fans sang "Stand Up If You Still Believe", one checked their rule book whilst the other swung his baseball bat - perhaps the one with the rule book should worry more about an baseball bat being brought into the ground...



PS: The light was too low in the undercroft for my daguerreotype camera - sorry...

[premFlem]

A cheap "safe standing area" would be a huge plastic tube stapled to the terrace the hight of the stand where the mindless people who want to do this regressive activity can be dropped into on their heads from the top of it.

If you we're around in the days of 3-4000 at the cottage you will remember the 1000's of empty seats with the vast majority choosing to stand.

[Edwatch_Winston_Malone]

A cheap "safe standing area" would be a huge plastic tube stapled to the terrace the hight of the stand where the mindless people who want to do this regressive activity can be dropped into on their heads from the top of it.

If you we're around in the days of 3-4000 at the cottage you will remember the 1000's of empty seats with the vast majority choosing to stand.

and "stand up, coz you've got no seats" was sung by the visiting supporters on a frequent basis during the first season in the Premiership...

[Edwatch_Winston_Malone]

Wondered when you would bring that irrelevance up.

Safety officers split on safe standing
The FSOA had decided to debate the issue of persistent / safe standing for the major part of the morning session of their one-day conference. The roadshow was set up outside to give many of the safety officers present their first look at rail seats.

The general mood of the debate was disappointingly negative. However, there were nevertheless some positive points to take from it, not least the fact that nobody present maintained that standing was unsafe. Nor did anyone think that rail seats were unsafe. Without exception, the safety officers' concerns about standing related to issues of crowd management, not safety.

source? No, not the daily mail but...

http://www.safestandingroadshow.co.uk/news/safetyofficerssplitonsafestanding

[A Humble Man]

Everybody stood at the euro final in Hamburg and it took me about a week to recover from the experience after a week of severe back pain.  That is my main objection to standing the pain it causes and the fights we used to have on the terraces will return which is the main reason we have seats.

[King_Crud]

FFS, you won't be forced to stand, there will be plenty of seats if you want to sit. And because there will be a standing area that means the people in the seats will want to sit, and won't get in your way forcing you to stand.

[cottage cheese]

could the club not designate a standing area? Is that allowed? I know palace have a section which stands only.

[OldSchool76]

FFS, you won't be forced to stand, there will be plenty of seats if you want to sit. And because there will be a standing area that means the people in the seats will want to sit, and won't get in your way forcing you to stand.

A simple and straight to the point reply, well said King Crud.