Centre Backs

[nose]

Our center backs are coming in for a hell of alot of stick Most unfair in my opinion.
Certainly Brede has not been himself since being made captain but he is still very good.
The problem our center backs have is there is no effective central midfield and as such they are being pulled out of position and overrum over and over again.
The two goals QPR scored were a direct result of the central midfield being AWOL in the build up, brede's mugging on the half way line for the second goal should have been mopped up by covering deep lying midfielder. The first goal, brede was trying to rectify poor marking from others.

Poor defending like we have recently seen is a function of poor team play rather than individual errors. I think Brede is getting hammered for what is not really entirely his fault.

If this is so why does sendeross get so much stick. In his case he has a tendency to wander off, he ball watches and doesn't hold the line with the others. He is genuinely an accident waiting to happen. Even with a solid midfield in front of him he still makes far too many costly errors, usually of a wholly avoidable nature.

I think getting a holding midfielder to sit in front of the center backs would sort the problem of leaking so many avoidable goals!

[Snibbo]

So even though you say our centre backs are being exposed, you still blame Senderos far more than Hangeland. I'm pretty confident that if you counted mistakes per match for Senderos and Hangeland in say their last 3 full matches, you'd find Hangeland made at least as many.

[Rudolph]

You're right, Senderos played like a lost sheep at Chelsea recently.

Again another prime example of finding fault with one and not seeing the bad in others.  Our centre backs have been appalling this season.  Jol's system depends on two ball playing CBs distributing to the attacking options.  Hughes is uncomfortable with his and Hangeland is overworked, by being closed down too quickly.  Senderos can play out of the back, something conveniently overlooked when assessing his skills.

[HatterDon]

I was entertained by the fact that Schwarzer watched a 35 yard shot bounce twice and that it was somehow Senderos' fault. We all have our targets and our sacred cows.

[nose]

Sorry like the majority (I think it's the majority anyway) I disagree completely about senderos. Senderos ball watches, wanders off from the player he should be marking and he doesn't hold the line for offside. That is what makes him a liability, he tends to compound problems becuase he doesn't hold his position.
BUT I agree he played one of his better games against chelsea. When he manages to stay disciplined and focused and hold his position properly he is OK. But by his age he shouldn't be ball watching, he shouldn't wander away fronm the man he is supposed to be marking, he shouldn't be caught so often behind the line the other defeders are trying to hold, he is a far less capable player than the hughes and hangerland, that should be obvious to anyone.

The point of my post was purely to say that I think our center backs are being exposed by the midfield, and that such harsh critism was unfair. I think our problems are in central midfield, fix that and the central pair will be fine.
As far as playing out from the back the current two are not top of the class but on the other hand they aren't given many options. when the opposition presses, baird and sidwell are usually too far up the pitch and they need to come deep to collect, diarra is far better in that respect and murphy was too. We need a proper holding midfielder, not rocket science really. I feel sure if Jol said to baird or sidwell sit deep they would do it.

[Rudolph]

Sorry like the majority (I think it's the majority anyway) I disagree completely about senderos. Senderos ball watches, wanders off from the player he should be marking and he doesn't hold the line for offside. That is what makes him a liability, he tends to compound problems becuase he doesn't hold his position.
BUT I agree he played one of his better games against chelsea. When he manages to stay disciplined and focused and hold his position properly he is OK. But by his age he shouldn't be ball watching, he shouldn't wander away fronm the man he is supposed to be marking, he shouldn't be caught so often behind the line the other defeders are trying to hold, he is a far less capable player than the hughes and hangerland, that should be obvious to anyone.

The point of my post was purely to say that I think our center backs are being exposed by the midfield, and that such harsh critism was unfair. I think our problems are in central midfield, fix that and the central pair will be fine.
As far as playing out from the back the current two are not top of the class but on the other hand they aren't given many options. when the opposition presses, baird and sidwell are usually too far up the pitch and they need to come deep to collect, diarra is far better in that respect and murphy was too. We need a proper holding midfielder, not rocket science really. I feel sure if Jol said to baird or sidwell sit deep they would do it.

All complete rubbish.  He was just as effective as H+H when asked to play last year, as the stats prove.  He has come back from an injury and was involved in our only clean sheet away from home.  The game where the finger of blame could have been pointed at him, he suffered from the same lack of cover you outlined before.  

Let's get this straight though.  The reason there is so much hostility towards him is because he was in line to replace a fans favourite in Hughes.  There are people who are willing him to have a game like Hangeland had this weekend in order to be proved right. I wish that we could get behind all 11 out there instead of picking and choosing our favourites.

[MJG]

Yes get behind Hughes instead of your favourite.

[Burt]

The moment of the match on Saturday was when the ball rolled towards Sidwell, and he stayed rooted to the spot watching it, we were all expecting him to run and pick it up, but to our amazement he just stayed, stayed, stayed... And the possession went to QPR.

Summed it all up really.

A surreal moment.

Shame really as Sidwell's form has been on the uptick over the past few games.

[FFC1987]

I understand the Hughes vs Senderos argument entirely but I think the problems aren't with the defence but with the midfield really. Maybe obvious but I really don't think Senderos is the answer to all the woes atm.

[Rudolph]

I understand the Hughes vs Senderos argument entirely but I think the problems aren't with the defence but with the midfield really. Maybe obvious but I really don't think Senderos is the answer to all the woes atm.

A clean sheet away at Chelsea might prove otherwise I reckon.  H+H have been putting in stinkers all season.

[nose]

Sorry like the majority (I think it's the majority anyway) I disagree completely about senderos. Senderos ball watches, wanders off from the player he should be marking and he doesn't hold the line for offside. That is what makes him a liability, he tends to compound problems becuase he doesn't hold his position.
BUT I agree he played one of his better games against chelsea. When he manages to stay disciplined and focused and hold his position properly he is OK. But by his age he shouldn't be ball watching, he shouldn't wander away fronm the man he is supposed to be marking, he shouldn't be caught so often behind the line the other defeders are trying to hold, he is a far less capable player than the hughes and hangerland, that should be obvious to anyone.

The point of my post was purely to say that I think our center backs are being exposed by the midfield, and that such harsh critism was unfair. I think our problems are in central midfield, fix that and the central pair will be fine.
As far as playing out from the back the current two are not top of the class but on the other hand they aren't given many options. when the opposition presses, baird and sidwell are usually too far up the pitch and they need to come deep to collect, diarra is far better in that respect and murphy was too. We need a proper holding midfielder, not rocket science really. I feel sure if Jol said to baird or sidwell sit deep they would do it.

All complete rubbish.  He was just as effective as H+H when asked to play last year, as the stats prove.  He has come back from an injury and was involved in our only clean sheet away from home.  The game where the finger of blame could have been pointed at him, he suffered from the same lack of cover you outlined before. 

Let's get this straight though.  The reason there is so much hostility towards him is because he was in line to replace a fans favourite in Hughes.  There are people who are willing him to have a game like Hangeland had this weekend in order to be proved right. I wish that we could get behind all 11 out there instead of picking and choosing our favourites.

Actually he was not just as effective as H+H, I don't know what stats you look at but most are irrelevabnt and misleading. When senderos plays there is a propensity for him to go walk about. He was really poor against spurs two goals he was very seriously implicated for doing the wrong things. If you like him that is your opinion but hughes and hangerland are the fans favourites because they are generally reliable and are superior by a mile to the man you seek to defend. Oh and by the way, our retun to form last season coincided with the reinstatement of hughes so again I can't imagine what stats you are looking at!

Senderos is poor that's the begining and end of it, he has no self discipline, that is why he is poor, he ball watches and wanders and gets behind the line playing players onside. He played well against chelsea but his errors are not as a result of being back from injury, he has a track record of poor play.

I have told you excactly in what way senderos is poor, can you not see he ball watches, can you not see he leaves the man he is supposed to mark, can you not see he plays oposition players onside, if not watch more closely. But he did play well at chelsea.

[FFC1987]

I understand the Hughes vs Senderos argument entirely but I think the problems aren't with the defence but with the midfield really. Maybe obvious but I really don't think Senderos is the answer to all the woes atm.

A clean sheet away at Chelsea might prove otherwise I reckon.  H+H have been putting in stinkers all season.

Granted, I see your point (and a firm lover of Big Phil) but I don't think Hughes has had a stinker, if anything hes been performing well enough to keep Phil from a look in.

Maybe you're right and he would change the team dynamics and motivation but its hard to see but not impossible.

[Rudolph]

Sorry like the majority (I think it's the majority anyway) I disagree completely about senderos. Senderos ball watches, wanders off from the player he should be marking and he doesn't hold the line for offside. That is what makes him a liability, he tends to compound problems becuase he doesn't hold his position.
BUT I agree he played one of his better games against chelsea. When he manages to stay disciplined and focused and hold his position properly he is OK. But by his age he shouldn't be ball watching, he shouldn't wander away fronm the man he is supposed to be marking, he shouldn't be caught so often behind the line the other defeders are trying to hold, he is a far less capable player than the hughes and hangerland, that should be obvious to anyone.

The point of my post was purely to say that I think our center backs are being exposed by the midfield, and that such harsh critism was unfair. I think our problems are in central midfield, fix that and the central pair will be fine.
As far as playing out from the back the current two are not top of the class but on the other hand they aren't given many options. when the opposition presses, baird and sidwell are usually too far up the pitch and they need to come deep to collect, diarra is far better in that respect and murphy was too. We need a proper holding midfielder, not rocket science really. I feel sure if Jol said to baird or sidwell sit deep they would do it.

All complete rubbish.  He was just as effective as H+H when asked to play last year, as the stats prove.  He has come back from an injury and was involved in our only clean sheet away from home.  The game where the finger of blame could have been pointed at him, he suffered from the same lack of cover you outlined before.  

Let's get this straight though.  The reason there is so much hostility towards him is because he was in line to replace a fans favourite in Hughes.  There are people who are willing him to have a game like Hangeland had this weekend in order to be proved right. I wish that we could get behind all 11 out there instead of picking and choosing our favourites.

Actually he was not just as effective as H+H, I don't know what stats you look at but most are irrelevabnt and misleading. When senderos plays there is a propensity for him to go walk about. He was really poor against spurs two goals he was very seriously implicated for doing the wrong things. If you like him that is your opinion but hughes and hangerland are the fans favourites because they are generally reliable and are superior by a mile to the man you seek to defend. Oh and by the way, our retun to form last season coincided with the reinstatement of hughes so again I can't imagine what stats you are looking at!

Senderos is poor that's the begining and end of it, he has no self discipline, that is why he is poor, he ball watches and wanders and gets behind the line playing players onside. He played well against chelsea but his errors are not as a result of being back from injury, he has a track record of poor play.

I have told you excactly in what way senderos is poor, can you not see he ball watches, can you not see he leaves the man he is supposed to mark, can you not see he plays oposition players onside, if not watch more closely. But he did play well at chelsea.

Are you Tony Gale?

Being objective, what defensive flaws do you see in either Hangeland or Hughes game to this level of scrutiny?

Hughes is a great player and can still fulfill a role, but he, along with Hangeland, has come up short this year.  Our defensive woes were happening long before Hangeland's red card and are continuing after his return.  

I still maintain that Senderos is ready for 1st team action, but also realise that the weight of opposition to his selection makes it a no win situation for the manager.  

[Rudolph]

I understand the Hughes vs Senderos argument entirely but I think the problems aren't with the defence but with the midfield really. Maybe obvious but I really don't think Senderos is the answer to all the woes atm.

A clean sheet away at Chelsea might prove otherwise I reckon.  H+H have been putting in stinkers all season.

Granted, I see your point (and a firm lover of Big Phil) but I don't think Hughes has had a stinker, if anything hes been performing well enough to keep Phil from a look in.

Maybe you're right and he would change the team dynamics and motivation but its hard to see but not impossible.

He was woeful against Everton and at West Ham to name but two, but you are right, not actual stinkers.

It's good to have a pool of players all capable of stepping up to the plate. 

[FFC1987]

After hangelands poor start I was actually openly optimistic about Hughes and Phil. Think they did ok considering tough fixtures! Ultimately you need to do better than ok to put aside captain Brede.

[JackyFulham90]

Hughes & Hangeland still have plenty to offer with Sidwell Karagounis & Diarra in the middle we would be more solid, Senderos is a poor defender