Berba bashing vs Dempsey love in

[ToodlesMcToot]

I haven't posted on here for a while but I browse the board from time to time and occasionally CC too. Obviously his name is mentioned less often now, but it does annoy me that whenever Dempsey is referred to (as a player that is, not the person) he's spoken of as if he were world class. Berba however is usually roundly criticised on both boards by most posters.
Let's re-jog our memories. Dempsey scored plenty of goals granted, many of them vital, but he was also very wasteful with his wild long range shots, very greedy and very lazy and reluctant to track back.
Berba also scored lots of  goals, often vital goals, tracked back more often, created more chances and kept the ball better and was simply a joy to watch.
Granted Dempsey was far more willing to get in the six yard box, something Berba did far too rarely, but this is something I expect will change if we get more creativity.
My intention here is not so much to denigrate Dempsey's Fulham career, but to voice my protest against the Berba bashing. We're  fortunate to have a genuinely world class player at our club, let's not speed up his departure.

Obviously.

Why is it necessary to make this comparison? Why not voice your concern about just the "Berba bashing" if that's your ONLY concern?  :54:

Because it the highlights the double standards and dare I say it hypocrisy used to denigrate Berba and place Dempsey without criticism.  Anyway I have to go to work, will be on later.

Well, if this lifting up of Dempsey and bashing of Berba were done by the same people and was widespread on this board, I could see your point in the necessity of the comparison of the two. But that's just not the case on this board.

Those who continue to hold Dempsey in high regard, though vocal, aren't exactly in the majority on this board. They're not all that difficult to spot either. I'm a part of that group by the way. I haven't noticed any group bashing of Berba solely by this segment of the Fulham faithful.

Whatever your perception, I just am not seeing some concerted effort to praise Dempsey while criticising Berbatov. For me, it's either a figment of your imagination or an attempt to re-stoke this Dempsey/anti-Dempsey thing from which this board can't seem to escape.

I hope it's the former because a little objective reading can remedy that. If it's the latter, it seems obvious that there is no cure.....maybe only time.

[Lighthouse]

Yes well what a load of old piffle. Dempsey was and is a fine player and we are not as good without him as were with him. Berbatov is a great player but is no longer a player who can play as a loan striker without being supported by quick break away players who can support him. Something we don't have and didn't do bar the odd time.

Berbatov looks happy when he is not having to look for the ball and can go deep and play his own game. But when he is a loan striker he looks slow and is offside far too often. Even the great players get old and can do with playing in the right formation. The evidence is what happened on the pitch.

[Jack Fulham]

Berbatov is amazing. He's also amazingly frustrating.

[epsomraver]

 quote  Every game he was virtually a passenger unless he had the opportunity to score
That has got to be the most stupid statement ever put on here and there has been some! Yes Dempsey had off days but most of the time he played his socks off , I wish I could say that about our new offside king

[YankeeJim]

I haven't posted on here for a while but I browse the board from time to time and occasionally CC too. Obviously his name is mentioned less often now, but it does annoy me that whenever Dempsey is referred to (as a player that is, not the person) he's spoken of as if he were world class. Berba however is usually roundly criticised on both boards by most posters.
Let's re-jog our memories. Dempsey scored plenty of goals granted, many of them vital, but he was also very wasteful with his wild long range shots, very greedy and very lazy and reluctant to track back.
Berba also scored lots of  goals, often vital goals, tracked back more often, created more chances and kept the ball better and was simply a joy to watch.
Granted Dempsey was far more willing to get in the six yard box, something Berba did far too rarely, but this is something I expect will change if we get more creativity.
My intention here is not so much to denigrate Dempsey's Fulham career, but to voice my protest against the Berba bashing. We're  fortunate to have a genuinely world class player at our club, let's not speed up his departure.

Obviously.

Why is it necessary to make this comparison? Why not voice your concern about just the "Berba bashing" if that's your ONLY concern?  :54:

Because it the highlights the double standards and dare I say it hypocrisy used to denigrate Dempsey and place Berba without criticism.  Anyway I have to go to work, will be on later.

Since you had to go to work I corrected your statement for you.

[Burt]

Jolly good - haven't seen a good stoning for some time  :dft011:

[simplyfulham]

quote  Every game he was virtually a passenger unless he had the opportunity to score
That has got to be the most stupid statement ever put on here and there has been some! Yes Dempsey had off days but most of the time he played his socks off , I wish I could say that about our new offside king

Granted that quote is an over exaggeration.. But Dempsey had a knack of working his socks off going forward, but being a little more selective about how often he tracked back.

You earn that right to a certain extent when you score as many goals as he did. But that is the point I believe some are making in this thread.

[Matt Inglis]

When the manager seems to sometimes set up the team to give the ball to one player every single time they have possession, that player will always get things wrong a few times and receive criticisms.

[HatterDon]

Berbatov is amazing. He's also amazingly frustrating.

Look! A bit of balanced commentary!!!

Well said, that man.

[YankeeJim]

Guess July came early. :005:

[Bassey the warrior]

obviously, the validity of ones opinion about players, the coach, and the club continues to be TOTALLY dependent upon whether they jibe with yours. Trashing a player you don't like is fair commentary. Trashing a player you like is indicative of ignorance of football and -- possibly -- disloyalty to Fulham.

It also seems that if you criticize one player, you must love another with unalloyed passion.

And so on and so on and scooby-dooby-dooby.

Sometimes this board reminds me of a clubhouse filled with 12 year old girls completely besotted by boy bands.

Back to my self-imposed exile. See you in July. Harumph

Not really, some of us (myself included) try to judge people by their performance.

[Bassey the warrior]

Well, as Joni Mitchell sang, 'you never know what you've got til it's gone'.

I have wondered is it just Fulham fans, or is it modern supporters generally, who don't apreciate a good thing when they see it?

Berba scored 15 goals last season - crucial goals, and many goals that only a top class striker could have scored, let alone Rodallegra or Petric; and he also worked hard, filling in in midfield when needed, and tackling back.

Pundits generally agreed his signing had been a great success, but come on the Fulham forums and you might get a different impression....!!!

I don't know what would happen if we signed Moore and Mullery today, or Best and Marsh, like we did in the 70s - would they be slagged off as too old and slow?

You've got a point.

[Bassey the warrior]

Personally, my only complaints about Berba over the course of the season were the arm flailing and, for lack of a better way to put it, an unwillingness to be more direct around goal (not shooting enough).

On the latter, I realized as time went on that he's more a facilitator by nature than he is a goal scorer - eventhough he's still a very good goal scorer. Our lack of creativity in midfield and the loss of Dejagah pretty much ruined my ability to truly enjoy what we have in him. He is fun to watch.

On the former, I get it. I understand his frustration and his voicing of it on the field. However, I just wish that at some point during the season he'd have realized that that wasn't helping and been more vocal as a positive force on the field - a bit more of a cheerleader if you will. If he could tap into some of what Murph had as a team leader on the field, I believe it would have helped our team chemistry and performance tremendously. I only put that on him because he commands so much deference as a player.

Fair does.

[Bassey the warrior]

I haven't posted on here for a while but I browse the board from time to time and occasionally CC too. Obviously his name is mentioned less often now, but it does annoy me that whenever Dempsey is referred to (as a player that is, not the person) he's spoken of as if he were world class. Berba however is usually roundly criticised on both boards by most posters.
Let's re-jog our memories. Dempsey scored plenty of goals granted, many of them vital, but he was also very wasteful with his wild long range shots, very greedy and very lazy and reluctant to track back.
Berba also scored lots of  goals, often vital goals, tracked back more often, created more chances and kept the ball better and was simply a joy to watch.
Granted Dempsey was far more willing to get in the six yard box, something Berba did far too rarely, but this is something I expect will change if we get more creativity.
My intention here is not so much to denigrate Dempsey's Fulham career, but to voice my protest against the Berba bashing. We're  fortunate to have a genuinely world class player at our club, let's not speed up his departure.

Obviously.

Why is it necessary to make this comparison? Why not voice your concern about just the "Berba bashing" if that's your ONLY concern?  :54:

Because it the highlights the double standards and dare I say it hypocrisy used to denigrate Berba and place Dempsey without criticism.  Anyway I have to go to work, will be on later.

Dempsey was slated mercilessly....selective memory??

How he was treated when he was a Fulham player is not relevant at this point, it's how he was treated after he left that I'm talking about.
If Berba were to leave this summer we will miss him badly and some will regret being so hyper critical.

[Denver Fulham]

There is one complaint about Berba that a lot of people comment about that I really don't care about: He waves his arms and "shows up" his teammates.

Well, he's better than his teammates. He clearly was very committed last season. I don't have an issue if he shows his frustration, especially since I don't recall seeing *any* teammate publicly mention that as an annoyance or impacting the team.

The actual problem that having Berba creates for our club, that very few people talk about: He and Ruiz play the same position.

Playing Berbatov on top of Ruiz as a lone striker was Jol's best-of-not-great-worlds option this past season. We were slow. We didn't play much to width. We have zero ability to threaten with headers on goal. But any other position for Ruiz (deeper midfield or out wide on the right) was waaaaaay worse.

So now what? Do you keep Berba for another season and bring in a faster/goal-poaching/physical striker to play above him? Do you move Ruiz to the bench if Berba stays? Do you change formations to better accommodate both of them? Do you actually see what you could get for selling Ruiz? Do you flip Berba and essentially have gotten him for a year on a "free" transfer?

I don't know what the right answer is to that (although I wouldn't sell Ruiz. You'd probably take a loss and, surrounded by healthy and faster talent, his creative passing would be dangerous and worth his minuses), but it's an issue that needs considerable investigation this summer as we reshape the roster.

[Bassey the warrior]

There is one complaint about Berba that a lot of people comment about that I really don't care about: He waves his arms and "shows up" his teammates.

Well, he's better than his teammates. He clearly was very committed last season. I don't have an issue if he shows his frustration, especially since I don't recall seeing *any* teammate publicly mention that as an annoyance or impacting the team.

The actual problem that having Berba creates for our club, that very few people talk about: He and Ruiz play the same position.

Playing Berbatov on top of Ruiz as a lone striker was Jol's best-of-not-great-worlds option this past season. We were slow. We didn't play much to width. We have zero ability to threaten with headers on goal. But any other position for Ruiz (deeper midfield or out wide on the right) was waaaaaay worse.

So now what? Do you keep Berba for another season and bring in a faster/goal-poaching/physical striker to play above him? Do you move Ruiz to the bench if Berba stays? Do you change formations to better accommodate both of them? Do you actually see what you could get for selling Ruiz? Do you flip Berba and essentially have gotten him for a year on a "free" transfer?

I don't know what the right answer is to that (although I wouldn't sell Ruiz. You'd probably take a loss and, surrounded by healthy and faster talent, his creative passing would be dangerous and worth his minuses), but it's an issue that needs considerable investigation this summer as we reshape the roster.

I think they can and they simply need to play further up the pitch, both have got around the box and looked dangerous, it's simply that this was very rare.
I am hoping that signing a creative central midfielder a la Huddlestone will lead to them doing this and bagging a host of goals in the process.
A quick poacher would be a great thing to have as well, just to mix things up a bit. But I would always have them both in my line up.

[RidgeRider]

I haven't posted on here for a while but I browse the board from time to time and occasionally CC too. Obviously his name is mentioned less often now, but it does annoy me that whenever Dempsey is referred to (as a player that is, not the person) he's spoken of as if he were world class. Berba however is usually roundly criticised on both boards by most posters.
Let's re-jog our memories. Dempsey scored plenty of goals granted, many of them vital, but he was also very wasteful with his wild long range shots, very greedy and very lazy and reluctant to track back.
Berba also scored lots of  goals, often vital goals, tracked back more often, created more chances and kept the ball better and was simply a joy to watch.
Granted Dempsey was far more willing to get in the six yard box, something Berba did far too rarely, but this is something I expect will change if we get more creativity.
My intention here is not so much to denigrate Dempsey's Fulham career, but to voice my protest against the Berba bashing. We're  fortunate to have a genuinely world class player at our club, let's not speed up his departure.

Obviously.

Why is it necessary to make this comparison? Why not voice your concern about just the "Berba bashing" if that's your ONLY concern?  :54:

Because it the highlights the double standards and dare I say it hypocrisy used to denigrate Berba and place Dempsey without criticism.  Anyway I have to go to work, will be on later.

Dempsey was slated mercilessly....selective memory??

How he was treated when he was a Fulham player is not relevant at this point, it's how he was treated after he left that I'm talking about.
If Berba were to leave this summer we will miss him badly and some will regret being so hyper critical.

Mr. Moose, my only point is (and I listed the players by name in another thread) every player we have had, sans Simon Davies and Brian McBride, have been slated by some supporters for one reason or another to the point of suggesting they need to leave the squad. I think those that have slated Berba are those wanting a player who not only is sublimely skillful but has the prized asset of looking like they are giving a 110% at all times.

Whether wrong or right, Berba represents the new Fulham and we probably expected more of him than we should but this was the most frustrating season I can remember, more frustrating than the Sanchez year because that year we had some crap players who Sanchez couldn't get to play 'well', and this past season we had some very good players that our manager couldn't get to play well, except for the odd outing. Berba was expected, to some degree , to allow us to forget Dembele and Dempsey, and he didn't....he still was critical to our survival however and we should hold on to him. That I agree with you on.

[Bassey the warrior]

I haven't posted on here for a while but I browse the board from time to time and occasionally CC too. Obviously his name is mentioned less often now, but it does annoy me that whenever Dempsey is referred to (as a player that is, not the person) he's spoken of as if he were world class. Berba however is usually roundly criticised on both boards by most posters.
Let's re-jog our memories. Dempsey scored plenty of goals granted, many of them vital, but he was also very wasteful with his wild long range shots, very greedy and very lazy and reluctant to track back.
Berba also scored lots of  goals, often vital goals, tracked back more often, created more chances and kept the ball better and was simply a joy to watch.
Granted Dempsey was far more willing to get in the six yard box, something Berba did far too rarely, but this is something I expect will change if we get more creativity.
My intention here is not so much to denigrate Dempsey's Fulham career, but to voice my protest against the Berba bashing. We're  fortunate to have a genuinely world class player at our club, let's not speed up his departure.

Obviously.

Why is it necessary to make this comparison? Why not voice your concern about just the "Berba bashing" if that's your ONLY concern?  :54:

Because it the highlights the double standards and dare I say it hypocrisy used to denigrate Berba and place Dempsey without criticism.  Anyway I have to go to work, will be on later.

Dempsey was slated mercilessly....selective memory??

How he was treated when he was a Fulham player is not relevant at this point, it's how he was treated after he left that I'm talking about.
If Berba were to leave this summer we will miss him badly and some will regret being so hyper critical.

Mr. Moose, my only point is (and I listed the players by name in another thread) every player we have had, sans Simon Davies and Brian McBride, have been slated by some supporters for one reason or another to the point of suggesting they need to leave the squad. I think those that have slated Berba are those wanting a player who not only is sublimely skillful but has the prized asset of looking like they are giving a 110% at all times.

Whether wrong or right, Berba represents the new Fulham and we probably expected more of him than we should but this was the most frustrating season I can remember, more frustrating than the Sanchez year because that year we had some crap players who Sanchez couldn't get to play 'well', and this past season we had some very good players that our manager couldn't get to play well, except for the odd outing. Berba was expected, to some degree , to allow us to forget Dembele and Dempsey, and he didn't....he still was critical to our survival however and we should hold on to him. That I agree with you on.

He was never going to help us get over Dembele because his purpose is very very different. Dembele bossed midfield, Berba got goals and created chances. But I feel we didn't really miss Dempsey, Berba pretty much filled the gap, plus Kaca emerged as a very hot talent.
That being said I'd take back Dempsey in a shot, even after the way he departed. You can never have too many goalscorers.

[Bracken White]

The great thing about Dempsey was, as a midfielder, his ability to appear at the right place at the right time & score goals. Goals change matches - crass but true. This was his strength.
Berbatov isn't that sort of player but certainly is a more gifted one, and plays as a striker - can score out of nothing.
So little to compare, in my opinion.
However, Berbatov will be so much more effective & prolific as a 2nd striker. So roll on a centre-forward type who can score goals in his own right. Ruiz then, would have to play a wider role - but it just might prove to be a more effective role for him & for Fulham.

[Bassey the warrior]

If anyone is on CC please convey my message to Dallas that he is a first class jackwagon and should find himself another club, perhaps Spurs given Dempsey is there now. I know many on there feel the same.