Would you welcome a "B team" style set up in England?

[valdeingruo]

Where as it wouldnt be as drastic as the Spanish system it would be more similar to the dutch where there are affiliate clubs where you can send multiple players to the same club.


Advantage: Valuable competitive matches for Premiership Club's players, ie promotion, relegation and cup experience.

However I cant see any more advantages than that. It would allow the players match time, however to reach the suggested goal of improving the English game there would have to be a limit of the foreign player in these linked clubs. It would also be negative in the sense that the new "B club" will by no means want to give up its history or identity and would impact the English players already at the club.

Thoughts?


http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/sep/19/fa-english-football-feeder-clubs?

[MJG]

In short..yes i would.
here is another link which I posted the other day with Martinez discussing this issue:
http://www.express.co.uk/sport/football/429056/Roberto-Martinez-suggests-B-teams-and-feeder-clubs-to-fill-the-void-of-England-bling-kids

I believe you either have stand alone B teams or feeder clubs. It would allow the players to play in a more competitive league. It would possibly raise the standard of play in those lower leagues.
If you used feeder clubs, better players, better coaches at those clubs would improve them.
For the bigger B teams more revenue would be generated at some games.
Its a big discussion point and one we should be looking at.

As i said in the thread about young players, they need competitive games, not nice games in the U21 lge.

Slightly off track I would at least change the loan system.
The changes I would like is no loans between Premier clubs.
You can't loan out a non EEC player.
You can only loan under 24's

[valdeingruo]

If the FA were to set up as you have stated MJG it would be very good, however as it is the FA I doubt it would be set up as such.


Would definately be interesting how they go about it, particularly regarding current clubs history.

[MJG]

If the FA were to set up as you have stated MJG it would be very good, however as it is the FA I doubt it would be set up as such.


Would definately be interesting how they go about it, particularly regarding current clubs history.

Your right about the FA (and any gov body) they always screw up and fudge things, instead of positive decisions.
The thing is how can a country smaller than Florida continue to support 100+ professional clubs. Yes its a dream of every club to get to the top, but the vast majority will never do that. Take a team like Rochdale, almost 100 years they have been in the FL and in that time have only played in the bottom 2 Lges and had 2 promotions and 3 relegations. Would the fans prefer to see better quality football by using 3 or 4 players from Utd for example?

For example a conference side working with Fulham could be allowed 6 U22 players in their matchday squads.
If that club got promoted, then in Lge 2 that becomes 4 or 5 players max. Lge 1 it goes to 3.
Cup games are an issue and maybe the draws would have to seeded so affiliate teams cannot draw each other.

[valdeingruo]

If the FA were to set up as you have stated MJG it would be very good, however as it is the FA I doubt it would be set up as such.


Would definately be interesting how they go about it, particularly regarding current clubs history.

Your right about the FA (and any gov body) they always screw up and fudge things, instead of positive decisions.
The thing is how can a country smaller than Florida continue to support 100+ professional clubs. Yes its a dream of every club to get to the top, but the vast majority will never do that. Take a team like Rochdale, almost 100 years they have been in the FL and in that time have only played in the bottom 2 Lges and had 2 promotions and 3 relegations. Would the fans prefer to see better quality football by using 3 or 4 players from Utd for example?

For example a conference side working with Fulham could be allowed 6 U22 players in their matchday squads.
If that club got promoted, then in Lge 2 that becomes 4 or 5 players max. Lge 1 it goes to 3.
Cup games are an issue and maybe the draws would have to seeded so affiliate teams cannot draw each other.

That all seems feasible and would look to improve English quality overall.  How would affiliated vs non affiliated clubs work? Lets say the FA goes along with your guidelines would there be an option to become an affiliate or the ability to decline? And what league would the Premiership club be able to start?  You could argue that someone say United could easily affiliate with a Championship club and send its players directly to them.

If you had a say in a potential affiliate for Fulham who would it be?

[MJG]

If the FA were to set up as you have stated MJG it would be very good, however as it is the FA I doubt it would be set up as such.


Would definately be interesting how they go about it, particularly regarding current clubs history.

Your right about the FA (and any gov body) they always screw up and fudge things, instead of positive decisions.
The thing is how can a country smaller than Florida continue to support 100+ professional clubs. Yes its a dream of every club to get to the top, but the vast majority will never do that. Take a team like Rochdale, almost 100 years they have been in the FL and in that time have only played in the bottom 2 Lges and had 2 promotions and 3 relegations. Would the fans prefer to see better quality football by using 3 or 4 players from Utd for example?

For example a conference side working with Fulham could be allowed 6 U22 players in their matchday squads.
If that club got promoted, then in Lge 2 that becomes 4 or 5 players max. Lge 1 it goes to 3.
Cup games are an issue and maybe the draws would have to seeded so affiliate teams cannot draw each other.

That all seems feasible and would look to improve English quality overall.  How would affiliated vs non affiliated clubs work? Lets say the FA goes along with your guidelines would there be an option to become an affiliate or the ability to decline? And what league would the Premiership club be able to start?  You could argue that someone say United could easily affiliate with a Championship club and send its players directly to them.

If you had a say in a potential affiliate for Fulham who would it be?

I think its a business decision for both parties really.It would not be compulsory.
Fulham might decide they dont wish to approach a club and have an affiliate club, where as Chelsea might go to Aldershot and say 'Can we buy 49% of the club?'. With that they could loan the X number of players, have a say in the coaching, training etc side of the club.Improve facilities, I would make it an FA ruling that if you affliate with a club you need to install at that a club a standard of training facilities which that club (Aldershot) would own.

IF the rule came in next year any club in Lge 1 or below could be an affiliate with a premier or championship side.
Maybe...just maybe those clubs can only progress to Lge 1. because what I'm looking at is those clubs who will never do anything apart from bob around in the 1/2/Conf lges. There are lots of arguments for and against this and as I said, it needs a good look at.

BUT they would not be a B team. B Team's would be something very different. They would have the identity of the first team. Games should be played at main stadium of a smaller shared ground. They just would not be allowed above a certain level of lge.

As for Fulham, I would have thought a Conference/Conf South side would be ok as an affiliate.Lets take Farnborough as an example. They almost ceased as a club this season and only started playing fixture in the last couple of weeks. For 500-750K we could have bought the club, installed 6 U21 players in the club, improved facilities, and that club would have a strong base going forward. Instead, like a lot of NL clubs they will have to go through all this again next summer, get a load of new players again on yearly contracts, and dice with going out of business. With an agreement with a FT club, yes players might change as it does now, but it allows the locals to watch better players, better football, safe in the knowledge that they will be still running season after season.

[Fulhampete]

If something along these lines had been introduced when we were struggling near the foot of the fourth tier of the league we would have probably gone out of existence. We could even have ended up as QPR seconds. Surely this should put things into perspective.

[MJG]

If something along these lines had been introduced when we were struggling near the foot of the fourth tier of the league we would have probably gone out of existence. We could even have ended up as QPR seconds. Surely this should put things into perspective.

It does and its an argument as to why it could not work here. But even going away from the fact that a bigger club owns anything of the lower club, surely a tighter playing connection can help both parties?

[TonyGilroy]

There's nothing to stop us forming an arrangement with a lower league team and loaning them any number of players not immediately needed by us.

I believe Spurs have this sort of arrangement currently with QPR.

[jmh]

It would be terrible for smaller clubs.  Chelsea for instance have enough talent out on loan (Lukaku, Marin, Courtois, etc.) that, if the league were set up this way and they chose to do so, they could put together a B team that would be competitive in the Championship.  That means some other team in the Championship would eventually get relegated, and so on down the line until, at the bottom end, Plymouth Argyle or Torquay or someone else gets relegated out of the Football League.  It's great for Chelsea because they can have their players playing real league matches closer to home and without benefiting any other club, but it's horrible for the marginal clubs down at the other end.

[beijing ben]

It would be terrible for smaller clubs.  Chelsea for instance have enough talent out on loan (Lukaku, Marin, Courtois, etc.) that, if the league were set up this way and they chose to do so, they could put together a B team that would be competitive in the Championship.  That means some other team in the Championship would eventually get relegated, and so on down the line until, at the bottom end, Plymouth Argyle or Torquay or someone else gets relegated out of the Football League.  It's great for Chelsea because they can have their players playing real league matches closer to home and without benefiting any other club, but it's horrible for the marginal clubs down at the other end.

This and what fulhampete said is basically what i was thinking. Although in germany they have a rule that reserve sides cannot play higher than the third tier and, i think, they cant compete in cups. It undoubtedly improves the standard of homegrown talent, but as you say, the price paid by other clubs is unfair as they are more likely to get relegated and also they cease to be their own club anymore.

Right now, we could look at afc wimbledon and suggest this idea. But i'm sure their fans would say that they were watching the old wimbledon performing at the same level as we are not that long ago. Things can change quickly. The teams that are usually in the lower divisions still have the dream of getting to the top however unrealistic it may be. They would look at us and Wigan as examples of how it can happen. If you become a feeder club you essentially take that dream away..

[Deanothefulhamfan]

Really interesting thread with both postives for each arguement.

The question no doubt is how we improve home grown talent, but how do we do so? We Need to look at Germany as a role model imo. They completley changed things after their world cup failure, and now are arguably the best team in Europe / the world at present. The German game is brilliant on so many levels, the home grown players coming through, a season ticket at Dortmund is the equivalent of a high end game ticket at Arsenal. They have a standing allocation to drive better acoustics etc. The Germans are doing everthing England are not at the moment.

[valdeingruo]

I was wary of style like this but if done correctly it could greatly benefit the quality of English players, so instead of a few good ones you have many and people wouldnt find it odd that a player from the Championship could make the national side. Look at the good that the Germans are doing and look at the Spaniards and figure out what they are doing well and take from that.

For me the top sides would only be able to loan English players to their affiliate. No sense in saying that this is for the good of the National side if a scenario such as JMH brought up where a side in the Championship fields Courtois, Lukaku etc.

The affiliate would greatly benefit from a style implimented to that of MJG's system and while I think there would be resistance regarding history as MJG stated, the overall rise in the quality of play would surely quiet a disgruntled supporter.

There would have to be clauses for the senior side as well. Lets say a Premiership sides affiliate gets promoted and the parents club decides to retain a player from that promotion side, the parent club would have to send a replacement. No sense in getting the affilated club promoted, only to see it get relegated the next season. This would ensure more English players have contracts in the Premiership with a club.

Clubs with an affiliate would be required to send both staff and players each way. Lets say 2 coaches go to the Premiership side from the affiliate and vice versa. The Premiership coaches would improve the quality of training at the affiliate, while the affiliates coaches benefit from a year at the bigger club. This would improve the level of play across the leagues.

As stated above there would be a player cap that fluxated depending on the league said affiliate were in. I dont see why an affilated club couldnt go as high as the Championship.

Now that ive actually thought about it for awhile, if implimented properly, this could be a good thing for the English side, and maybe make winning the 2022 not as crazy as it seems now.

[beijing ben]

I was wary of style like this but if done correctly it could greatly benefit the quality of English players, so instead of a few good ones you have many and people wouldnt find it odd that a player from the Championship could make the national side. Look at the good that the Germans are doing and look at the Spaniards and figure out what they are doing well and take from that.

For me the top sides would only be able to loan English players to their affiliate. No sense in saying that this is for the good of the National side if a scenario such as JMH brought up where a side in the Championship fields Courtois, Lukaku etc.

The affiliate would greatly benefit from a style implimented to that of MJG's system and while I think there would be resistance regarding history as MJG stated, the overall rise in the quality of play would surely quiet a disgruntled supporter.

There would have to be clauses for the senior side as well. Lets say a Premiership sides affiliate gets promoted and the parents club decides to retain a player from that promotion side, the parent club would have to send a replacement. No sense in getting the affilated club promoted, only to see it get relegated the next season. This would ensure more English players have contracts in the Premiership with a club.

Clubs with an affiliate would be required to send both staff and players each way. Lets say 2 coaches go to the Premiership side from the affiliate and vice versa. The Premiership coaches would improve the quality of training at the affiliate, while the affiliates coaches benefit from a year at the bigger club. This would improve the level of play across the leagues.

As stated above there would be a player cap that fluxated depending on the league said affiliate were in. I dont see why an affilated club couldnt go as high as the Championship.

Now that ive actually thought about it for awhile, if implimented properly, this could be a good thing for the English side, and maybe make winning the 2022 not as crazy as it seems now.

Absolutely no doubt it would benefit the national side. However, it goes back to the club v country debate. And in my opinion club wins every time. Its a matter of time before we are relegated whether its this season, next season or in ten seasons time, it will happen eventually. And as a Fulham fan i would be devastated if they brought in this idea when we were struggling because that would essentially be it. If you are the feeder club you kind of have to stop supporting that club and start supporting the parent club because you are just providing for them.

In simple terms, how would you feel if Fulham were the feeder/affiliate club?

[MJG]

I just want to say we dont have enough of these type of discussions on this board.

[Andy S]

There is nothing wrong with premier league clubs setting up a league as used to happen in this country. These players could play against each other mid week. and open the doors for supporters to attend and charge them a £5.00 or so to get in. If it was competitive people would watch. There is absolutely no need to decimate the lower leagues where it would put clubs out od business.

[valdeingruo]

I was wary of style like this but if done correctly it could greatly benefit the quality of English players, so instead of a few good ones you have many and people wouldnt find it odd that a player from the Championship could make the national side. Look at the good that the Germans are doing and look at the Spaniards and figure out what they are doing well and take from that.

For me the top sides would only be able to loan English players to their affiliate. No sense in saying that this is for the good of the National side if a scenario such as JMH brought up where a side in the Championship fields Courtois, Lukaku etc.

The affiliate would greatly benefit from a style implimented to that of MJG's system and while I think there would be resistance regarding history as MJG stated, the overall rise in the quality of play would surely quiet a disgruntled supporter.

There would have to be clauses for the senior side as well. Lets say a Premiership sides affiliate gets promoted and the parents club decides to retain a player from that promotion side, the parent club would have to send a replacement. No sense in getting the affilated club promoted, only to see it get relegated the next season. This would ensure more English players have contracts in the Premiership with a club.

Clubs with an affiliate would be required to send both staff and players each way. Lets say 2 coaches go to the Premiership side from the affiliate and vice versa. The Premiership coaches would improve the quality of training at the affiliate, while the affiliates coaches benefit from a year at the bigger club. This would improve the level of play across the leagues.

As stated above there would be a player cap that fluxated depending on the league said affiliate were in. I dont see why an affilated club couldnt go as high as the Championship.

Now that ive actually thought about it for awhile, if implimented properly, this could be a good thing for the English side, and maybe make winning the 2022 not as crazy as it seems now.

Absolutely no doubt it would benefit the national side. However, it goes back to the club v country debate. And in my opinion club wins every time. Its a matter of time before we are relegated whether its this season, next season or in ten seasons time, it will happen eventually. And as a Fulham fan i would be devastated if they brought in this idea when we were struggling because that would essentially be it. If you are the feeder club you kind of have to stop supporting that club and start supporting the parent club because you are just providing for them.

In simple terms, how would you feel if Fulham were the feeder/affiliate club?

I can see the outrage if this were to happen, but as I stated before if it were between watching your club fade into history or accepting being a feeder club im sure the majority would begrudingly take the feeder option.

There could be a clause were an affiliate could choose to break off the connection, but there would have to be rules to this, such as five years after a link they have the option, but once broken if the club slides back down they can not establish a new link for another five.

[valdeingruo]

There is nothing wrong with premier league clubs setting up a league as used to happen in this country. These players could play against each other mid week. and open the doors for supporters to attend and charge them a £5.00 or so to get in. If it was competitive people would watch. There is absolutely no need to decimate the lower leagues where it would put clubs out od business.

I agree that the lower league clubs would suffer for a period. However if the Premiership sides adopted a league one side and the Championship adopted a league two then it would bring stability to the whole football league.

In my scenario it would all be voluntary so the clubs future would be in its own hands.

How would a B league as a seperate entity be any different from the current reserve leagues?

[beijing ben]

There is nothing wrong with premier league clubs setting up a league as used to happen in this country. These players could play against each other mid week. and open the doors for supporters to attend and charge them a £5.00 or so to get in. If it was competitive people would watch. There is absolutely no need to decimate the lower leagues where it would put clubs out od business.

I agree that the lower league clubs would suffer for a period. However if the Premiership sides adopted a league one side and the Championship adopted a league two then it would bring stability to the whole football league.

In my scenario it would all be voluntary so the clubs future would be in its own hands.

How would a B league as a seperate entity be any different from the current reserve leagues?

But the problem with this would be in cup competitions. If two teams play each and are essentially part of the same 'franchise' then there would be a problem.

I know what you are getting at and for the sake of the national team it would be beneficial but our club football is unlike any in the world i would say. It's not worth playing around with and if that means the national team suffers, so be it..