Did Jol get it right?

[EJL]

FFC 2 Man  city 2
FFC 6 QPR 0
FFC 1 Liverpool 0
FFC 2 Arsenal 1
FFC 5 Newcastle 2
FFC 5 Wolves 0
Bolton 0 FFC 3
Liverpool 0 FFC 1

Just a few of our impressive  2011/2012 results, all under Jol!

A season and a bit later and we are a shadow of what we used to be...I just don't understand.

Well, first he ran off Zamora. Then he ran off AJ. Then he ran off Murphy ... ... ... .


See, it's really quite easy to understand.

Hold on there a bit mr HD, it was Zamora that had the problem not Jol, Zamora held a grudge because Jol sold him from Spurs, and if you remember although you did not experience it Zamora also had a problem with the supporters, he was and is one giant ego. Aj was forever injured and did nothing whatsoever to help the cause, Murphy wanted 2 years and was offered one with the option to coach he turned it down.

I guess it is easier to blame Jol for everything, if it starts to rain it's Jol's fault, i am not a Jol in or out man, i just don't agree with him being blamed for everything.

Well that's not true whatsoever, is it?

[EJL]

FFC 2 Man  city 2
FFC 6 QPR 0
FFC 1 Liverpool 0
FFC 2 Arsenal 1
FFC 5 Newcastle 2
FFC 5 Wolves 0
Bolton 0 FFC 3
Liverpool 0 FFC 1

Just a few of our impressive  2011/2012 results, all under Jol!

A season and a bit later and we are a shadow of what we used to be...I just don't understand.

Well, first he ran off Zamora. Then he ran off AJ. Then he ran off Murphy ... ... ... .


See, it's really quite easy to understand.

Spot on

And he ran off Dempsey. 'I felt undervalued.'

Said a man who said he wanted to  play for Liverpool and who's parent company said they had signed him, so some sort of negotiations must have taken place, to me that implies that he did not want to play for Fulham, that is when Jol did not pick him.
and what was all that stuff from Dempsey about the thruth will come out. Did he feel undervalued at spurs as well?

If I recall correctly, Dempsey publicly said that he wanted a new contract at the end of the 2010-11 season but the club didn't bother. Who knows if negotiations took place or not between then and his departure, though.

[HatterDon]

Would we be stronger if Zamora, AJ and Murphy reported for duty today? Of course not - age and injury have finished their careers sadly.

Not replacing them is the problem but is that Jol's fault or lack of available finance?

Not producing a fit enough, organised, tactically disciplined team is down to Jol and is the reason he needs to go.

Of course not, Tony. The question was "why were we able to get results under Jol before and not now. My answer was that we have systematically rid ourselves of the types of players who could pressure opposing defenses as part of a team concept. We're no longer aggressive, because that's not Jol's style.

Also, Alfie

Hold on there a bit mr HD, it was Zamora that had the problem not Jol, Zamora held a grudge because Jol sold him from Spurs, and if you remember although you did not experience it Zamora also had a problem with the supporters, he was and is one giant ego.

yes, I've seen that reported, and it probably has a lot of merit. I've seen it reported, however, in the Great British Sporting Press which doesn't always drape itself in glory for the accuracy of its reportage. What I DO know -- as I said -- was that Zamora didn't leave the club as a free agent and walk down the road to QPR. He got to QPR because FULHAM sold him. It was Fulham's decision and -- I would hope -- a decision made to help remake the club more to Jol's liking. Blaming Zamora for being transferred seems a little weak to me.

[alfie]

Would we be stronger if Zamora, AJ and Murphy reported for duty today? Of course not - age and injury have finished their careers sadly.

Not replacing them is the problem but is that Jol's fault or lack of available finance?

Not producing a fit enough, organised, tactically disciplined team is down to Jol and is the reason he needs to go.

Of course not, Tony. The question was "why were we able to get results under Jol before and not now. My answer was that we have systematically rid ourselves of the types of players who could pressure opposing defenses as part of a team concept. We're no longer aggressive, because that's not Jol's style.

Also, Alfie

Hold on there a bit mr HD, it was Zamora that had the problem not Jol, Zamora held a grudge because Jol sold him from Spurs, and if you remember although you did not experience it Zamora also had a problem with the supporters, he was and is one giant ego.

yes, I've seen that reported, and it probably has a lot of merit. I've seen it reported, however, in the Great British Sporting Press which doesn't always drape itself in glory for the accuracy of its reportage. What I DO know -- as I said -- was that Zamora didn't leave the club as a free agent and walk down the road to QPR. He got to QPR because FULHAM sold him. It was Fulham's decision and -- I would hope -- a decision made to help remake the club more to Jol's liking. Blaming Zamora for being transferred seems a little weak to me.

Fair point Mr HD, but i still maintain that it was Zamora's attitude towards Jol and the fans that created the problems and why he was sold.

Anyway i have got things wrong before and no doubt will get things wrong again.

[hn4fulham]

I have always said from a few years ago that Jol is going to tear this team and club to shreds by the time he's done with it. We've just been sitting here watching the dismantling of all that we've built over the course of the past years:( I'm become so exhausted in the recent couple years watching us fall apart under the guidance of Jol. If we want to save this club, some drastic measures will have to be taken while we still have time. It's hard for a club like ours to come back up if we get relegated. Jol just doesn't understand what it takes to build a team that works for a club like Fulham.

[HatterDon]

Would we be stronger if Zamora, AJ and Murphy reported for duty today? Of course not - age and injury have finished their careers sadly.

Not replacing them is the problem but is that Jol's fault or lack of available finance?

Not producing a fit enough, organised, tactically disciplined team is down to Jol and is the reason he needs to go.

Of course not, Tony. The question was "why were we able to get results under Jol before and not now. My answer was that we have systematically rid ourselves of the types of players who could pressure opposing defenses as part of a team concept. We're no longer aggressive, because that's not Jol's style.

Also, Alfie

Hold on there a bit mr HD, it was Zamora that had the problem not Jol, Zamora held a grudge because Jol sold him from Spurs, and if you remember although you did not experience it Zamora also had a problem with the supporters, he was and is one giant ego.

yes, I've seen that reported, and it probably has a lot of merit. I've seen it reported, however, in the Great British Sporting Press which doesn't always drape itself in glory for the accuracy of its reportage. What I DO know -- as I said -- was that Zamora didn't leave the club as a free agent and walk down the road to QPR. He got to QPR because FULHAM sold him. It was Fulham's decision and -- I would hope -- a decision made to help remake the club more to Jol's liking. Blaming Zamora for being transferred seems a little weak to me.

Fair point Mr HD, but i still maintain that it was Zamora's attitude towards Jol and the fans that created the problems and why he was sold.

Anyway i have got things wrong before and no doubt will get things wrong again.

as have I and as will I also, good sir.

[Logicalman]

I'm not sure, given all that went on with Dempsey, that we will ever know the full truth. Dempsry alluded to the fact the truth will come out, but then stayed quiet.

We is known is that Fulham had no contact with Liverpool over the sale of Dempsey, and it is some coincidence that upon Dempeys return from the US to the UK, FSG splashed the 'signing of Dempsey' to Liverpool all over their website, followed by reports that Dempsey stated he wanted a move to Liverpool, and then wanted a move to play CL (something he wasn't going to get with Liverpool) and so signs for Spuds, just to find he wasn't first pick and so finally, after one season chasing his dream, returned to his homeland, purportedly because he wanted the family in the US and Sounders made him a great pay deal.

Regarding Zamora, I believe he and Jol fell out very early on, and Zamora was a bad influence at the Cottage, undermining Jols position, something no manager (or club) should put up with, and so he basically forced Jols hand into letting him go. I think to say that because Fulham got money for him doesn't necessarily mean it was against the players wishes or wants, but, perhaps, good business in getting monies for a player that was unlikely to play for the club in the future. His, and AJs form following their move does nothing to suggest that they would have done better had they stayed, or that Fulham would have benefited from them staying. It is all hypothetical to suggest they would have done so.

[Logicalman]

Would we be stronger if Zamora, AJ and Murphy reported for duty today? Of course not - age and injury have finished their careers sadly.

Not replacing them is the problem but is that Jol's fault or lack of available finance?

Not producing a fit enough, organised, tactically disciplined team is down to Jol and is the reason he needs to go.

Of course not, Tony. The question was "why were we able to get results under Jol before and not now. My answer was that we have systematically rid ourselves of the types of players who could pressure opposing defenses as part of a team concept. We're no longer aggressive, because that's not Jol's style.

Though that could also have been as they were getting older, and would have gone by now anyways, and finding replacements to fit into a team built by Roy would have been difficult at best.

Many times we have seen great teams grow together, play well, and when certain king-pins of that team either leave through injury or sale or retirement, the whole team has to be rebuilt, as though it goes in cycles, almost. Only a few teams can claim they have managed to avoid the cyclic fortunes I feel.

[WORTHINGFULHAM]

FFC 2 Man  city 2
FFC 6 QPR 0
FFC 1 Liverpool 0
FFC 2 Arsenal 1
FFC 5 Newcastle 2
FFC 5 Wolves 0
Bolton 0 FFC 3
Liverpool 0 FFC 1

Just a few of our impressive  2011/2012 results, all under Jol!

A season and a bit later and we are a shadow of what we used to be...I just don't understand.

Well, first he ran off Zamora. Then he ran off AJ. Then he ran off Murphy ... ... ... .


See, it's really quite easy to understand.

Easy to understand indeed he got rid of dead wood

[epsomraver]

So Murphy was dead wood ? fp.gif

[Logicalman]

He definitely was not getting better, though he was not dead wood. Though he did start out at a higher level than most, once a team comes to rely on a player such as he, when he does start failing (his passing was not as good, and he was getting mugged too many times in the midfield - some of which led to goals), then it becomes a little too apparent.

I wasn't certain that he had a year left in him, but based on what has happened to our midfield since he left, with no suitable replacement (prior to Parket that is), keeping him may not have been such a bad idea.

[The Old Count]

I have always said from a few years ago that Jol is going to tear this team and club to shreds by the time he's done with it. We've just been sitting here watching the dismantling of all that we've built over the course of the past years:( I'm become so exhausted in the recent couple years watching us fall apart under the guidance of Jol. If we want to save this club, some drastic measures will have to be taken while we still have time. It's hard for a club like ours to come back up if we get relegated. Jol just doesn't understand what it takes to build a team that works for a club like Fulham.

Spot on

[WORTHINGFULHAM]

So Murphy was dead wood ? fp.gif

So Murphy was dead wood ? fp.gif

Er in the end yes..too old but don't get me wrong great player and servant to the club

[Peabody]

 078.gifvt u

FFC 2 Man  city 2
FFC 6 QPR 0
FFC 1 Liverpool 0
FFC 2 Arsenal 1
FFC 5 Newcastle 2
FFC 5 Wolves 0
Bolton 0 FFC 3
Liverpool 0 FFC 1

Just a few of our impressive  2011/2012 results, all under Jol!

A season and a bit later and we are a shadow of what we used to be...I just don't understand.

Well, first he ran off Zamora. Then he ran off AJ. Then he ran off Murphy ... ... ... .


See, it's really quite easy to understand.

Spot on

And he ran off Dempsey



Sorry, "and he ran off Dempsey". I must be a silly old so and so but I thought Clint came back of his hols and said I want to play Champions League, so I want qqqqto join Liverpool. If am wrong then I am sorry but if I Am right, how can Jol be blamed for that.

[Logicalman]

You got that spot on Mr P.

Perhaps Jol forced him out before his holidays then?

[HatterDon]

You got that spot on Mr P.

Perhaps Jol forced him out before his holidays then?

Just pointing out that I did not bring up Dempsey, nor mention him in this thread until now.

[Enter the Frei]

I don't think there was any chance no matter who our manager was that Dempsey would have stayed. He was ambitous and wanted champions league football something we were never going to be able to offer him so lets not use it as another stick to beat Jol with.

Additionally I don't think getting £6 mil for Bobby Zamora can be seen as anything other than excellent business especially considering his age, the way he has played for QPR, his goalscoring record and the replacements that have come in since. We were an ageing squad when Jol took over and if we had kept both Bobby and AJ like some in this thread seem to be hinting at then we would have two more sick note 30+ players and I'm sure we'd have more complaints about that.

[Peabody]

You got that spot on Mr P.

Perhaps Jol forced him out before his holidays then?

Just pointing out that I did not bring up Dempsey, nor mention him in this thread until now.

You never but others did

[HatterDon]

I don't think there was any chance no matter who our manager was that Dempsey would have stayed. He was ambitous and wanted champions league football something we were never going to be able to offer him so lets not use it as another stick to beat Jol with.

Additionally I don't think getting £6 mil for Bobby Zamora can be seen as anything other than excellent business especially considering his age, the way he has played for QPR, his goalscoring record and the replacements that have come in since. We were an ageing squad when Jol took over and if we had kept both Bobby and AJ like some in this thread seem to be hinting at then we would have two more sick note 30+ players and I'm sure we'd have more complaints about that.

I never said that we should have kept them until now. The problem is that the players we replaced them with aren't the sort of players who do well with a strong, quick attacking plan. We got those early results because we had an attack that pressured defenses and turned them with speed. We haven't built towards that sort of team since Jol came in. The difference between those results and results now, is that in his first season, Jol had a bunch of players he didn't want. Now his squad is filled with players he does want. In his first season, we struck fear into opposing defenses at time. Now we don't. This is the difference that Jol has made at Fulham.

Oh, and thanks for confirming that THE CLUB sold Zamora. He didn't flounce off to QPR. He was sold.

[The Old Count]

078.gifvt u

FFC 2 Man  city 2
FFC 6 QPR 0
FFC 1 Liverpool 0
FFC 2 Arsenal 1
FFC 5 Newcastle 2
FFC 5 Wolves 0
Bolton 0 FFC 3
Liverpool 0 FFC 1

Just a few of our impressive  2011/2012 results, all under Jol!

A season and a bit later and we are a shadow of what we used to be...I just don't understand.

Well, first he ran off Zamora. Then he ran off AJ. Then he ran off Murphy ... ... ... .


See, it's really quite easy to understand.

Spot on

And he ran off Dempsey



Sorry, "and he ran off Dempsey". I must be a silly old so and so but I thought Clint came back of his hols and said I want to play Champions League, so I want qqqqto join Liverpool. If am wrong then I am sorry but if I Am right, how can Jol be blamed for that.

If Dempsey had been 'man managed' differently for the months leading up to him wanting to leave he may well have stayed. He said that he was producing the goods but didn't feel valued.  I don't imagine it was an overnight thing.  Sometimes you need to be pro active, regarding contracts.