Did Jol get it right?

[alexbishop]

FFC 2 Man  city 2
FFC 6 QPR 0
FFC 1 Liverpool 0
FFC 2 Arsenal 1
FFC 5 Newcastle 2
FFC 5 Wolves 0
Bolton 0 FFC 3
Liverpool 0 FFC 1

Just a few of our impressive  2011/2012 results, all under Jol!

A season and a bit later and we are a shadow of what we used to be...I just don't understand.

[RidgeRider]

I think it had to do with him having Hodgson's well drilled players, and him not changing much of how they played. He also had Murphy in the dressing room, something Hughes benefitted from as well.

He now has his team and his weaknesses as a manager is showing.

Good look back at that season. Other than how we fell out of the Europa League competition it was a much better season and there was a feeling we would kick on, but we are witnessing the exact opposite.

[YankeeJim]

I think it had to do with him having Hodgson's well drilled players, and him not changing much of how they played. He also had Murphy in the dressing room, something Hughes benefitted from as well.

He now has his team and his weaknesses as a manager is showing.

Good look back at that season. Other than how we fell out of the Europa League competition it was a much better season and their was a feeling we would kick on, but we are witnessing the exact opposite.

Spot on.

[alexbishop]

Yea Danny went, obviously Moosa, Clint, Bobby, AJ and co. Also Ray L went too, wonder if that made a difference on the coaching side?

[ffc73]

No Berbatov that season

[Logicalman]

No Berbatov that season

Uh-huh, or Bent, he managed to concentrate on the rest of the squad rather than his old pals.

Coockie suffered the same way when he started getting too pally with the help!!

[God The Mechanic]

Murphy, Moussa and Dempsey all left, all of whom were vital parts of that team.  Hangeland has aged atrociously over the last 18 months, Hughes hasn't done so particularly gracefully either.

It's pretty hard to compare the two teams, as the 2011/12 season was probably the final year of their peaks for quite a few players.  Now they're definitely on their way down, or have left and not been replaced.

[HatterDon]

FFC 2 Man  city 2
FFC 6 QPR 0
FFC 1 Liverpool 0
FFC 2 Arsenal 1
FFC 5 Newcastle 2
FFC 5 Wolves 0
Bolton 0 FFC 3
Liverpool 0 FFC 1

Just a few of our impressive  2011/2012 results, all under Jol!

A season and a bit later and we are a shadow of what we used to be...I just don't understand.

Well, first he ran off Zamora. Then he ran off AJ. Then he ran off Murphy ... ... ... .


See, it's really quite easy to understand.

[Logicalman]

FFC 2 Man  city 2
FFC 6 QPR 0
FFC 1 Liverpool 0
FFC 2 Arsenal 1
FFC 5 Newcastle 2
FFC 5 Wolves 0
Bolton 0 FFC 3
Liverpool 0 FFC 1

Just a few of our impressive  2011/2012 results, all under Jol!

A season and a bit later and we are a shadow of what we used to be...I just don't understand.

Well, first he ran off Zamora. Then he ran off AJ. Then he ran off Murphy ... ... ... .


See, it's really quite easy to understand.

Sorry, Zamora was a true snake in the grass, and still in love with Sparky. he couldn't wait to get shot of Fulham and went to Sparky the moment he had the chance. As for AJ, really? The guy was a walking sick note, long before Jol got there. Since that injury in the Europa cup, that put him out of action , he played 13 first team matches in 2010 season. This isn't cherry picking at all. As for Murphy, how does anyone know what happened there? He claims he left to play first team football but Rovers terminated his contract after just one year.

[HatterDon]

FFC 2 Man  city 2
FFC 6 QPR 0
FFC 1 Liverpool 0
FFC 2 Arsenal 1
FFC 5 Newcastle 2
FFC 5 Wolves 0
Bolton 0 FFC 3
Liverpool 0 FFC 1

Just a few of our impressive  2011/2012 results, all under Jol!

A season and a bit later and we are a shadow of what we used to be...I just don't understand.

Well, first he ran off Zamora. Then he ran off AJ. Then he ran off Murphy ... ... ... .


See, it's really quite easy to understand.

Sorry, Zamora was a true snake in the grass, and still in love with Sparky. he couldn't wait to get shot of Fulham and went to Sparky the moment he had the chance. As for AJ, really? The guy was a walking sick note, long before Jol got there. Since that injury in the Europa cup, that put him out of action , he played 13 first team matches in 2010 season. This isn't cherry picking at all. As for Murphy, how does anyone know what happened there? He claims he left to play first team football but Rovers terminated his contract after just one year.

Well, Zamora may have been a snake, but Fulham transferred him to QPR. He didn't leave on a free. He also was the strong man in our attack who troubled central defenders and laid off to runners extremely well. He also scored a goal or two. Jol didn't want an old-fashioned center forward for Fulham and so the club transferred him to QPR.

Well, AJ may have spent a lot of time injured, but when he played, he had the knack of making diagonal runs in the penalty area that dragged central defenders wide. Duff and Dempsey bagged a lot of goals because of his unselfish work -- which many on this site called "running like a headless chicken." He also scored a few goals, including a hattrick against QPR as I remember.

Murphy was the onfield leader that we haven't had since he left. He wanted to stay with the club but, like other players whose names I will not mention, was not offered the contract his play had merited. Instead, the club imported poorer and less fit midfielders of the same age, but without Premier League experience.

The loss of those three players turned Fulham from an attacking force at home to the slow, plodding, sideways team that we are now and that Martin Jol wants us to be.

Take a look at those games Mr alexbishop listed, and count the goals scored by players Jol inherited and the club transferred out or released. That's the difference, Mr. Logicalman.

[Arthur]

Yes, he did get it right in a number of ways and I'll give him some credit even if no other contributor to this thread is prepared to do so.

Firstly, there's a 6 and two 5s in those results. Now,  not once could we manage to score more than 3 goals in a league game in two-and-a-half seasons under Hodgson; the suggestion that these results were simply due to it being his players and that Jol had no bearing on these performances just doesn't hold up.

Secondly, the most influential players that season were, in my opinion, Dembele, Dempsey and - albeit towards the end - Diarra. It's acknowledged that Jol's decision to move Dembele to a deeper midfield position was the making of the player after the previous season in which Mousa's obvious talent often failed to materialise. Equally, it's recognised that Jol's use of Dempsey in a roving role (whereas previous managers had typically constrained him to left flank) enabled the player to flourish and bag a hatful of goals. Moreover, Diarra's arrival cost us nothing and yet, once fit, he showed what a quality player he was: he could read the game well; he was strong; he could pass; he lifted the other players. Again, not Hodgson's legacy but Jol's management.

A game from that season which isn't on the list stands out in my mind: a 1-1 draw against Ch***ea at CC. On that evening, for the first (and only) time in the years of Abramovich's bank-rolling, we genuinely looked their equal over 90 minutes. We showed as much class, as much skill, as much self-belief as the team who were to win the Champions League soon after.

Sadly, since then Jol has lost his way completely. However, that doesn't alter the fact that, for a brief period, it seemed as if he would turn us into a more attractive, skilful outfit than had been the case for many a season.

[Logicalman]

Thanks Arthur, somebody else who recognizes what actually happened.

Of those matches mentioned, below are the actual results with scorers. It might be noted that, if Jols success was just the remnants of Sparky's & Roys reign, then it lasted the whole season! Obviously nothing to do with Jol then.

If anyone believes that Dempsey would have stayed with us when he wanted CL games, then that is a delusional idea, and so taking out Dempsey's contribution, you're not left with so much.

Johnson, 13 goals in 86 games, not quite the prolific goal scorer some believe he was (perhaps it was due to he being injured too many times) - oh, and just 2 goals for QPR, obviously teaming back up with Zamora and Sparky did him a world of good. Now for Zamora. Lead suspect as being the player who was leaking details to the press to unsettle the dressing room (that's what every club needs) and he did manage to get an average of 5 goals per season in his time with us, and has even managed 6 in the past 18 months with QPR. Even Berbatov, the guy that gives 20% a match has managed a higher average per season with us! What does that tell you?

Oh, and when we say how great Sparky was, how many of these players did Sparky inherit from Roy?

Nobody likes to downplay ex-players, but when they are used to portray how poor the current manager is, from 2 seasons ago, it does need to levelling.

THAT is the difference Mr HD!!

18 September 2011 FFC 2 Man  city 2 (Zamora, Murphy)
2 October 2011 FFC 6 QPR 0 (Johnson 3, Murphy 1 pen, Dempsey, Zamora)
5 December 2011 FFC 1 Liverpool 0 (Dempsey)
2 January 2012 FFC 2 Arsenal 1 (sidwell, zamora)
21 January 2012 FFC 5 Newcastle 2 (Murphy1 pen, Dempsey 3, Zamora 1 pen)
4 March 2012 FFC 5 Wolves 0 (Pog 3, dempsey 2)
7 April 2012 Bolton 0 FFC 3 (Dempsey 2, Diarra 1)
1 May 2012 Liverpool 0 FFC 1 (Skrtel)

[alfie]

FFC 2 Man  city 2
FFC 6 QPR 0
FFC 1 Liverpool 0
FFC 2 Arsenal 1
FFC 5 Newcastle 2
FFC 5 Wolves 0
Bolton 0 FFC 3
Liverpool 0 FFC 1

Just a few of our impressive  2011/2012 results, all under Jol!

A season and a bit later and we are a shadow of what we used to be...I just don't understand.

Well, first he ran off Zamora. Then he ran off AJ. Then he ran off Murphy ... ... ... .


See, it's really quite easy to understand.

Hold on there a bit mr HD, it was Zamora that had the problem not Jol, Zamora held a grudge because Jol sold him from Spurs, and if you remember although you did not experience it Zamora also had a problem with the supporters, he was and is one giant ego. Aj was forever injured and did nothing whatsoever to help the cause, Murphy wanted 2 years and was offered one with the option to coach he turned it down.

I guess it is easier to blame Jol for everything, if it starts to rain it's Jol's fault, i am not a Jol in or out man, i just don't agree with him being blamed for everything.

[TonyGilroy]

Would we be stronger if Zamora, AJ and Murphy reported for duty today? Of course not - age and injury have finished their careers sadly.

Not replacing them is the problem but is that Jol's fault or lack of available finance?

Not producing a fit enough, organised, tactically disciplined team is down to Jol and is the reason he needs to go.

[The Old Count]

FFC 2 Man  city 2
FFC 6 QPR 0
FFC 1 Liverpool 0
FFC 2 Arsenal 1
FFC 5 Newcastle 2
FFC 5 Wolves 0
Bolton 0 FFC 3
Liverpool 0 FFC 1

Just a few of our impressive  2011/2012 results, all under Jol!

A season and a bit later and we are a shadow of what we used to be...I just don't understand.

Well, first he ran off Zamora. Then he ran off AJ. Then he ran off Murphy ... ... ... .


See, it's really quite easy to understand.

Spot on

And he ran off Dempsey. 'I felt undervalued.'

[epsomraver]

FFC 2 Man  city 2
FFC 6 QPR 0
FFC 1 Liverpool 0
FFC 2 Arsenal 1
FFC 5 Newcastle 2
FFC 5 Wolves 0
Bolton 0 FFC 3
Liverpool 0 FFC 1

Just a few of our impressive  2011/2012 results, all under Jol!

A season and a bit later and we are a shadow of what we used to be...I just don't understand.

Well, first he ran off Zamora. Then he ran off AJ. Then he ran off Murphy ... ... ... .


See, it's really quite easy to understand.

Hold on there a bit mr HD, it was Zamora that had the problem not Jol, Zamora held a grudge because Jol sold him from Spurs, and if you remember although you did not experience it Zamora also had a problem with the supporters, he was and is one giant ego. Aj was forever injured and did nothing whatsoever to help the cause, Murphy wanted 2 years and was offered one with the option to coach he turned it down.

I guess it is easier to blame Jol for everything, if it starts to rain it's Jol's fault, i am not a Jol in or out man, i just don't agree with him being blamed for everything.

I think you will find Alfie that Zamora had already gone to Spam before Jol came in. sure this has been said before

[ron]

You could talk about this for hours, "Jol did this", "Jol did that".......

But the underlying truth is that Hodgson's teams relied on drill, drill, drill. Each knew his job in the general scheme, and did it. As time has passed and that squad has diluted with Hughes and now this fellow, so has the work ethic, and so has the drill type of coaching/training.

We now have the situation where no player is secure in his knowledge of what to do, and the weekly shuffling that is Jol's starting XI's and substitutions is just adding to it.

[Logicalman]

I think you will find Alfie that Zamora had already gone to Spam before Jol came in. sure this has been said before

Quite right, Bobby moved on in January 2004, and Jol became assistant to Santini in late June, taking over as manager 5 months later.

Not certain why Bobby had an issue with Jol, notwithstanding, he blotted his copybook with the suspicious leaking, that not only harmed Jol but the club and unsettled players alike.

[alfie]

FFC 2 Man  city 2
FFC 6 QPR 0
FFC 1 Liverpool 0
FFC 2 Arsenal 1
FFC 5 Newcastle 2
FFC 5 Wolves 0
Bolton 0 FFC 3
Liverpool 0 FFC 1

Just a few of our impressive  2011/2012 results, all under Jol!

A season and a bit later and we are a shadow of what we used to be...I just don't understand.

Well, first he ran off Zamora. Then he ran off AJ. Then he ran off Murphy ... ... ... .


See, it's really quite easy to understand.

Spot on

And he ran off Dempsey. 'I felt undervalued.'

Said a man who said he wanted to  play for Liverpool and who's parent company said they had signed him, so some sort of negotiations must have taken place, to me that implies that he did not want to play for Fulham, that is when Jol did not pick him.
and what was all that stuff from Dempsey about the thruth will come out. Did he feel undervalued at spurs as well?

[alfie]

FFC 2 Man  city 2
FFC 6 QPR 0
FFC 1 Liverpool 0
FFC 2 Arsenal 1
FFC 5 Newcastle 2
FFC 5 Wolves 0
Bolton 0 FFC 3
Liverpool 0 FFC 1

Just a few of our impressive  2011/2012 results, all under Jol!

A season and a bit later and we are a shadow of what we used to be...I just don't understand.

Well, first he ran off Zamora. Then he ran off AJ. Then he ran off Murphy ... ... ... .


See, it's really quite easy to understand.

Hold on there a bit mr HD, it was Zamora that had the problem not Jol, Zamora held a grudge because Jol sold him from Spurs, and if you remember although you did not experience it Zamora also had a problem with the supporters, he was and is one giant ego. Aj was forever injured and did nothing whatsoever to help the cause, Murphy wanted 2 years and was offered one with the option to coach he turned it down.

I guess it is easier to blame Jol for everything, if it starts to rain it's Jol's fault, i am not a Jol in or out man, i just don't agree with him being blamed for everything.

I think you will find Alfie that Zamora had already gone to Spam before Jol came in. sure this has been said before

If that is the case then i apologise, but i understood it was Jol who sold him, but i am happy to be corrected.