Question for Old Sod's Army

[RidgeRider]

Watching two really nice volley's by Sidwell and Kasami today and seeing how much movement the players can place on the ball, it made me wonder, how much of that ability is because if the nature of today's footballs and their design, or if it's a skill the players have always had and have been able to make the ball "slurve" they way they do since the game started. Baseball's can be made to move all over the place, as can volleyball's and golf shots but today's goals made me wonder how long this has been the case in football. My guess it has always been the case but having not seen a match from "back in the day" I was just wondering how these goals compare to those from the days of old in terms of the ball movement.

[YankeeJim]

Riggie, watch a few old Johnny Haynes tapes.

[ron]

Plasticised coatings have made a great difference to the weight of balls, particularly in wet conditions. Old leather footballs which were treated with dubbin became porous after a while, and absorbed water to increase their weight.

Modern balls remain comparatively impervious to water, and therefore lighter and easier to control in flight.

Reputations were hard won by the Maestros of yesteryear....and that's why their reputations have worn so well !

[WhiteJC]

 :bump:

[bog]

I feel the main difference today is the make up of the balls. Them old brown leather ones were like a brick when soaking wet. So many of the old players suffered poor health in later life brought on by heading them. Some suffered blurred eyesight. They were really tough. I wonder what they would make of today's boots and balls....and finances! By the '60s the balls were more conducive to preventing injuries to the brain and the Brazilians were bending free kicks well before Beckam. Nowadays the balls are like candy floss compared so any deviation in flight is not to be surprised at! 

I will never forget Tosh Chamberlain when he really got hold of a shot, a real rocket, there was no need to bend any of his efforts players just got out of the way!

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[bog]

I should have added that you still saw many magnificent goals and free kicks from distance.   

[RaySmith]

I think the old leather ball, especially when wet, and which took a lot of power to kick, used to fly more directly through the air with great momentum, compared to the modern ball which swerves and  changes direction, and  this is exploited by skilled players with practise.

I think the old ball was hard to save having such force and speed, but the new ball is probably harder to save because you can't predict its flight easily.

[win-dup]

I feel the main difference today is the make up of the balls. Them old brown leather ones were like a brick when soaking wet. So many of the old players suffered poor health in later life brought on by heading them. Some suffered blurred eyesight. They were really tough. I wonder what they would make of today's boots and balls....and finances! By the '60s the balls were more conducive to preventing injuries to the brain and the Brazilians were bending free kicks well before Beckam. Nowadays the balls are like candy floss compared so any deviation in flight is not to be surprised at! 

I will never forget Tosh Chamberlain when he really got hold of a shot, a real rocket, there was no need to bend any of his efforts players just got out of the way!

092.gif         

yes Tosh's shots were amazing, though he would probably be banned by 'elf and safety now as wonderful though his goals were, those that flew into the terrace were probably responsible for several deaths.

[ron]

I feel the main difference today is the make up of the balls. Them old brown leather ones were like a brick when soaking wet. So many of the old players suffered poor health in later life brought on by heading them. Some suffered blurred eyesight. They were really tough. I wonder what they would make of today's boots and balls....and finances! By the '60s the balls were more conducive to preventing injuries to the brain and the Brazilians were bending free kicks well before Beckam. Nowadays the balls are like candy floss compared so any deviation in flight is not to be surprised at! 

I will never forget Tosh Chamberlain when he really got hold of a shot, a real rocket, there was no need to bend any of his efforts players just got out of the way!

092.gif         

yes Tosh's shots were amazing, though he would probably be banned by 'elf and safety now as wonderful though his goals were, those that flew into the terrace were probably responsible for several deaths.

How can I remember - but I definitely do - Tosh miscueing a cross which rattled into a "Rizla" cigarette paper advert on the fence and knocked it to the ground !

Don't ask me which game....I must have been about 6, and it was the only thing I remember about one of those precious days out with my long gone grandparents 

[Andy S]

I remember being right behind a shot in the 70's from Roger Cross superstar he scored two against QPR(remember the song) well one of those was a screamer and it swerved all over the place before hitting the back of the net

[cmg]

There is no doubt that the old leather balls, however new and well treated, may have started out the same weight as today's balls but, in the wet and the mud (which is not seen now on top-flight grounds) could become considerably heavier.
I think the plasticky nature of todays balls make them more prone to swerve, but the old balls could certainly be made to move considerable distances if struck appropriately.
As always the secret was more in timing than in raw power. This is why the example of JH, cited above, is a good one. he could swerve a ball around a defender at will and he could shoot with stunning speed and accuracy (although he did so too rarely) because he struck the ball so sweetly. He always said, however, that he would have found these things easier with modern balls and playing surfaces.
A major difference was in heading the ball. When it was wet you had to head it properly. A mistimed header could be painful or even lead to injury so you had to get it right.

I never played in goal, but I think Ray, below, is right that the old ball presented different problems to the keepers of the day.

I can't recall, off hand, anybody who hit the ball harder than Tosh Chamberlain. Accuracy was an optional extra!

[Holders]

Keepers were much more inclined to catch the ball in the past, they now punch and palm it away more, probably because it's so prone to unpredictable movement.

As to whether it's better, rather than just different, I'd like to see some of the old players with the new ball; I don't think you can really say otherwise. 

[Fernhurst]

With today's pitches and. Ball construction our treasured Maestro would be in his element.

Think Paul Scholes in his pomp x 3

One of those sodden leather balls put me up to my ankles in mud when I was a kid

[Rhys Lightning 63]

I can't recall, off hand, anybody who hit the ball harder than Tosh Chamberlain. Accuracy was an optional extra!

I remember my grandad once told me a story of a Welsh striker (I THINK it was Cliff Jones, but don't quote me on that) who once took a penalty, and he hit it so hard, that it deflated in the air before it reached the goalkeeper.

Not that I'm comparing the two, but did Tosh ever do that?

[LBNo11]

I can't recall, off hand, anybody who hit the ball harder than Tosh Chamberlain. Accuracy was an optional extra!

I remember my grandad once told me a story of a Welsh striker (I THINK it was Cliff Jones, but don't quote me on that) who once took a penalty, and he hit it so hard, that it deflated in the air before it reached the goalkeeper.

Not that I'm comparing the two, but did Tosh ever do that?

...no he didn't, but there again Cliff Jones never broke a goalkeepers ribs with a backpass..!

[Vinnieffc]

During my playing days back in the late 80's my club invested in the new (and quite expensive) First Division match ball (it was white with a red stripe around the circumference). It was so light it was like playing football with an over inflated ping pong ball. All the team hated it - particularly us defenders as you couldn't judge the flight of the ball coming towards you. I think that ball lasted just one season in the top flight and was replaced by the previous, heavier version the following season..

[grandad]

I have scars above both eye brows inflicted by the laces on real footballs. No one wanted to be centre half. Together with boots with heavy solid toe caps meant there was no way a player could do the fancy things present players & the plastic beach balls do.
Those were the days at the Richardson Evans pitches where you had to carry your goal posts to pitch no. 57 by Beverley Brook & break the ice in the goal mouths.

[Forever Fulham]

I think players today are far fitter, faster, stronger, better skilled than a generation or two ago.  I know it's impossible to go back in time and grab a great player and put him in a skills contest against a first team player of today.  But I'll just bet that if you could, you'd see today's player easily outperform his counterparts of yesteryear.  Everything is down to a science today with big money behind it: nutrition, strength and conditioning, skills development, support services and staff, less boozing.  I think today's player is on average able to strike the ball with more force notwithstanding the shift from heavy leather balls to today's ball.  Plus you have to consider the advancements in boot design and composition.  How light they are.

[cmg]

I think players today are far fitter, faster, stronger, better skilled than a generation or two ago.  I know it's impossible to go back in time and grab a great player and put him in a skills contest against a first team player of today.  But I'll just bet that if you could, you'd see today's player easily outperform his counterparts of yesteryear.  Everything is down to a science today with big money behind it: nutrition, strength and conditioning, skills development, support services and staff, less boozing.  I think today's player is on average able to strike the ball with more force notwithstanding the shift from heavy leather balls to today's ball.  Plus you have to consider the advancements in boot design and composition.  How light they are.

I'm sure you're right about this, at least as far as fitness, strength and speed.
In the extensive interview available on the BBC site, Haynes, in his typical honest, intelligent and articulate way, accepts that today's players are stronger, fitter and move faster than in his playing days (he is too modest to point out that few, if any, have thought quicker than he). He merely points out that he would have enjoyed the chance to use the more 'user friendly' balls and surfaces available today.

The 1958 World Cup heralded a quantum leap forward in the footwear employed in the English game. By the early 60s virtually everyone was using lightweight, low-cut boots. Doubtless some improvements have since been made in leather boot design (I know nothing of the synthetic types), but it is noticeable that the iconic Adidas World Cup and Puma King designs are still available and widely used. The only exception to this trend was the wonderful Bobby Keetch who famously sported old-fashioned, brown, high-cut, hard toe-capped boots held together by odd bits of leather strapping. They were used to great effect, not always, it must be admitted, in contact with the ball.

[Forever Fulham]

Well, to your point, the truly great players of the past would still shine today.  Individual ball skills and creativity can't be taught in a weight room, or running sprints, or in fastidious attention to diet.  Maybe current players can, in general, strike the ball better, with more authority and accuracy, from years of organized training of a sort unavailable in past generations. But talent will still out.  I'd take George Best with a failing liver any day over Berbatov with his posted photo of six-pack abs.