Is the time right?

[valdeingruo]

Now I know this has discussed endlessly but is our 17 year old Dembele ready yet?

It seems that all of the footballing greats tend to make their debuts around 16-18 years of age. Not saying that he is great at the moment, but it sure seems like he has the potential based on the reports.

Rooney, Beckham both made their debuts at 16 and 17 years respectively.


With our strike force injured or uninterested we could at least give him his debut in the last 20 minutes of match to see how he does.\

I am all for not rushing our youth, Dan Burn's progression is a prime example of this, but we dont want to scare away potential signings in the future if we dont give give our youth a chance.

[MJG]

No

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

[Deanothefulhamfan]

I would like to see him included in the first team squad, not in the team as such, but just being around the first team squad... we have 1 sub striker which is not enough.

[BigNigeBowds]

hasn't he been involved abit with pre match warm ups at the cottage a few times?

[Nero]

should have put him in the squad for the game against burton, but half the first team weren't ready for that so I don't know if he would have been

[valdeingruo]

No

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Any particular reason for the no go? I know its a pain to type on a phone, would love to hear a negative reason.

[MJG]

No

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Any particular reason for the no go? I know its a pain to type on a phone, would love to hear a negative reason.

Because He's not ready. he has played less than 10 games at U21 level. I have seen him play last year and this. Now its clear at 17 that he's way too strong for the U18 age group.
At U21 he keeps scoring (as did Trotta and Woodrow), tap ins and quality goals, but he's still learning against better players.
I would prefer him to keep learning his trade at that level under Symons before being thrown in the deep end.

Now as someone who has banged on about getting youth into the team this might sound as if I'm now moving away from that view. Its not true, its just that there is a time and place to bring players in. In the middle of a relegation dogfight (which we are in) I do not feel is the right time for him. A couple of the 19/20 year olds could do it it, but remember he's not even 17 and half yet.

Jol has made massive mistakes with our youth. He takes Mesca up to Burton but does not put him in the matchday squad, but then throws him in for 20 minutes against Chelsea, is told to run around, and then not seen again and told hes going on loan.

Also it is a big jump from U21 to any league for strikers. For strikers its harder than say defenders to make the move because they are seen to have to score goals.
Look at Trotta, excellent goalscorer at all levels. Score goals at Lge 1, fails to do it at Champ and is written off. Currently in and out of the Brentford side.
Woodrow, a really good talent is finding it hard at L2 level.

Dembele is scoring goals, is strong, but would I believe look like a little boy lost against Premiership defenders as of today. Now come April/May who knows, with another 6 months under his belt he could be ready. Just dont rush the lad yet.

[FFC1987]

No

Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk

Any particular reason for the no go? I know its a pain to type on a phone, would love to hear a negative reason.

Theres a very interesting thread on here on this subject which (trying my best to paraphase and limit it) the avg matches played by players who are deemed ready would have roughly 150-200 matches under there belt at a competitive level. We have a slight stop gap in our talent pool where we are close to achieving this with a few players.

It's a big No from me and would again echoe the sentiments of the guys on here who know the youth systems well (would name a couple but don't want to misquote etc), let the kids mature at a sensible rate and continue there steady progression. There is simply no need to rush or gamble with a talent that could set him back.

[westcliff white]

i would like to see him on the bench for some games, he trains with the first team some days I believe (sure I saw that on this board somewhere). I am not saying he is as good as Michael Owen, but he made his debut at 16 (as did Robbie Fowler I think) and they didn't do too bad, having only played a handful of reserve games. We need a spark maybe he could be it, I think he is better prospect than mesca (altho different positions), but for sure at some stage some youth has to come in, the sooner the better for me.

[Bassey the warrior]

None of us have any idea to be fair. It's the staff that know most (and I don't trust Jol on this). Meulensteen should know if he's ready. In any case I think we need to give him a cameo role at least if we're going to keep him here.

[valdeingruo]

MJG, FFC1987, thank you for your input, i wasnt too sure where i stood in the Demble/youth question so this is helpful.

What it seems is like our best youth should actually not play for us but go out on loan.

Where would you send the youth like Dembele, Tankovic and Hyndman?  League 2? League 1? Maybe the Champ?

MJG, as you have actually seen him play where do you think Dembele and Co will end up? First team, star at another club, or just another hope from our youth that didnt end up where we would have  liked.

[MJG]

MJG, FFC1987, thank you for your input, i wasnt too sure where i stood in the Demble/youth question so this is helpful.

What it seems is like our best youth should actually not play for us but go out on loan.

Where would you send the youth like Dembele, Tankovic and Hyndman?  League 2? League 1? Maybe the Champ?

MJG, as you have actually seen him play where do you think Dembele and Co will end up? First team, star at another club, or just another hope from our youth that didnt end up where we would have  liked.

This may sound odd, but they need games in whatever lge we can get them in. I'm absolutely convinced that by the time your 21/22 you need to have 50-100 first team games in a competitive lge behind you. 
We have a great under u18/u21 setup, both really good TEAMS. As for outstanding players, I'm not so sure we have many of them. Its very much a team ethic at those levels.
Roberts looks very good, and its easy for young, tricky, fast wingers to stand out. The question is can he carry it on over the next few years. I like Tankovic, not convinced he's going to make it at premier level.
Hyndman for me needs to get bigger, maybe stick him on a rack or something, still quite young.

At the moment from the U21's Id take Passley, Grimmer, David, Christensen, Dembele, Tankovic, Woodrow and Trotta and push them to see if they can make it over the next 18 months.Burn will be back next season. David I would have in the squad now.

[valdeingruo]

MJG, FFC1987, thank you for your input, i wasnt too sure where i stood in the Demble/youth question so this is helpful.

What it seems is like our best youth should actually not play for us but go out on loan.

Where would you send the youth like Dembele, Tankovic and Hyndman?  League 2? League 1? Maybe the Champ?

MJG, as you have actually seen him play where do you think Dembele and Co will end up? First team, star at another club, or just another hope from our youth that didnt end up where we would have  liked.

This may sound odd, but they need games in whatever lge we can get them in. I'm absolutely convinced that by the time your 21/22 you need to have 50-100 first team games in a competitive lge behind you. 
We have a great under u18/u21 setup, both really good TEAMS. As for outstanding players, I'm not so sure we have many of them. Its very much a team ethic at those levels.
Roberts looks very good, and its easy for young, tricky, fast wingers to stand out. The question is can he carry it on over the next few years. I like Tankovic, not convinced he's going to make it at premier level.
Hyndman for me needs to get bigger, maybe stick him on a rack or something, still quite young.

At the moment from the U21's Id take Passley, Grimmer, David, Christensen, Dembele, Tankovic, Woodrow and Trotta and push them to see if they can make it over the next 18 months.Burn will be back next season. David I would have in the squad now.

So, for the sake of blooding in the youngsters would you send a majority of the U21's out on loan to Championship or League 1 clubs and forsake the U21's point standings?

[MJG]

MJG, FFC1987, thank you for your input, i wasnt too sure where i stood in the Demble/youth question so this is helpful.

What it seems is like our best youth should actually not play for us but go out on loan.

Where would you send the youth like Dembele, Tankovic and Hyndman?  League 2? League 1? Maybe the Champ?

MJG, as you have actually seen him play where do you think Dembele and Co will end up? First team, star at another club, or just another hope from our youth that didnt end up where we would have  liked.

This may sound odd, but they need games in whatever lge we can get them in. I'm absolutely convinced that by the time your 21/22 you need to have 50-100 first team games in a competitive lge behind you. 
We have a great under u18/u21 setup, both really good TEAMS. As for outstanding players, I'm not so sure we have many of them. Its very much a team ethic at those levels.
Roberts looks very good, and its easy for young, tricky, fast wingers to stand out. The question is can he carry it on over the next few years. I like Tankovic, not convinced he's going to make it at premier level.
Hyndman for me needs to get bigger, maybe stick him on a rack or something, still quite young.

At the moment from the U21's Id take Passley, Grimmer, David, Christensen, Dembele, Tankovic, Woodrow and Trotta and push them to see if they can make it over the next 18 months.Burn will be back next season. David I would have in the squad now.

So, for the sake of blooding in the youngsters would you send a majority of the U21's out on loan to Championship or League 1 clubs and forsake the U21's point standings?

Once the players have had the benefit of our coaching and played for 2/3 seasons with us then at 18/19/20 they would benefit from loan moves. The major problem is finding clubs that want to take the players and then play them.
While its nice to see the U21 team win, I dont believe its that important for that age group. The quality of football is good at that level but its not competitive enough. Nice to play the cottage in front of a couple of hundred, but better to be playing L2 in front of 3K and learning about the game that way.

[JackyFulham90]

Dembele & Mesca should  be given places on the subs bench

[res]

 Game time is important, especially if you are stretching players (hence moving from Under 18s to Under 21s); rather do that than sitting on a bench. However the U21s do not play at week-ends (the U18s do) so I can't see the harm in putting a couple on the 1st team bench to give them a better insight of first team football, and a feeling of being valued and of being a genuine part of the medium term plans. At the moment the bench is full of similar type, and older, players so you can reduce those by 2 whilst still leaving sufficient cover for experienced substitutions alongside a couple of younger players.
Having said that, I've never gone along with the "value" of putting someone on for 10 minutes to see how good they are :dead horse:

[ToodlesMcToot]

Not sure why we'd give Dembélé a run out, unless he just needs the exercise. At the moment we can't get the ball to our forward so that they can do anything with it. If we want to level him up, then send him to the lower leagues to a team that can actually create chances for him to score.

Lets concentrate on survival and if we just have to blood a youngster, then why not Burn or David to try and find solutions to our defending and to our creativity problem in midfield.

If we can get ourselves sorted and begin playing with a bit more of a forward push, Dembélé can always be recalled.