Numbers dont lie.

[YankeeJim]

Not sure what your getting at. IMHO, some stats can be to much of a personal opinion. Hence, my questions. A successful pass is one thing when its being pushed around by the back four than it a give and go in the box. Still counts as a pass but one is certainly more valuable than the other. Stats provide some understanding but are difficult to quantify. That all I'm saying.

I dont get how you think stats are a personal opinion. If tarrabt averages 24.2 passes per game, he averages 24.2 passes per game. Sure they may not be 24.2 attacking passes, but it illustrates his lack of production towards the team. A stat like passing can be broken down into thirds, passing in the defensive, middle, and attacking. I cant find the statistical breakdown for tarrabt or others right now, but given the fact that .6 of his passes/game end up with a player taking a shot, and having only one assist, i think its fair to say, most of his passes are not attacking.

in reference to your baseball/rounders/cricket statistic analogy, when im talking about the importance of it, I am speaking to the idea of having an advantage over a player. Bringing in back to soccer, if im a coach and i know that Liverpool's jordan henderson takes 15 minutes on cold days(temp below 50F) to warm up to game speed and starting having more successful passes, i can exploit that weakness and maybe get a goal on a counter attack.

I don't know that a players warm up time is something that can be revealed in stats, just a good eye from another player or a coach. The comment about opinion goes back to the initial question, what constitutes a successful dribble? Yes a pass is a pass but if we push the ball up from the back via Hangeland then he is making a lot of passes simply because that is what has been coached. I'm not denying that stats have value, just exactly how much. Why is it that some players just come up with the play when the chips are down and how do you, again, qualify that? Stats are useful if you find them useful but by no means are absolute. The nature of baseball is that the slow pace allows someone to count everything. How do you make a stat out of a player hustling to space to receive that pass or rebound? I'm not arguing with you, just conversing

[eloc]

Not sure what your getting at. IMHO, some stats can be to much of a personal opinion. Hence, my questions. A successful pass is one thing when its being pushed around by the back four than it a give and go in the box. Still counts as a pass but one is certainly more valuable than the other. Stats provide some understanding but are difficult to quantify. That all I'm saying.

I dont get how you think stats are a personal opinion. If tarrabt averages 24.2 passes per game, he averages 24.2 passes per game. Sure they may not be 24.2 attacking passes, but it illustrates his lack of production towards the team. A stat like passing can be broken down into thirds, passing in the defensive, middle, and attacking. I cant find the statistical breakdown for tarrabt or others right now, but given the fact that .6 of his passes/game end up with a player taking a shot, and having only one assist, i think its fair to say, most of his passes are not attacking.

in reference to your baseball/rounders/cricket statistic analogy, when im talking about the importance of it, I am speaking to the idea of having an advantage over a player. Bringing in back to soccer, if im a coach and i know that Liverpool's jordan henderson takes 15 minutes on cold days(temp below 50F) to warm up to game speed and starting having more successful passes, i can exploit that weakness and maybe get a goal on a counter attack.

I don't know that a players warm up time is something that can be revealed in stats, just a good eye from another player or a coach. The comment about opinion goes back to the initial question, what constitutes a successful dribble? Yes a pass is a pass but if we push the ball up from the back via Hangeland then he is making a lot of passes simply because that is what has been coached. I'm not denying that stats have value, just exactly how much. Why is it that some players just come up with the play when the chips are down and how do you, again, qualify that? Stats are useful if you find them useful but by no means are absolute. The nature of baseball is that the slow pace allows someone to count everything. How do you make a stat out of a player hustling to space to receive that pass or rebound? I'm not arguing with you, just conversing

theres actually a stat to show players hustling. its sprints per game, and you could probably even track player positioning.As far as baseball being a slow sport allowing everything to be counted, computers handle most of it today, and they process over 1000 matches a weekend. to quantify which players play better when the chips are down, then look at them in similar situations previous, compared to the average for his position. if the EPL average for key passes when the team in down 1-0 in the final 15 minutes is 1 and player A averages 1.5 in the same situation, then he's a clutch player, in fact he's much better than average. Sure, that might be a very small sample size to compare to, put if the average number of times a player is in it is close to the average, its an accurate representation of what youre trying to capture.

Might be a stupid question, but what is the requirement for a 'successful dribble' in these sort of stats?

from the whoscored website
Dribble (Successful Dribble)- Taking on an opponent and successfully making it past them whilst retaining the ball

the stats in football are terribly misleading
assists is one of the worst
completed passes is another useless stat
and even shots is ridiculous.
if the last one was changed to an attempt with a reasonable chance of scoring, that would be better. i have been to games with barely a chance all game and found there were 16+ attempts according to the stats....

i know taarabat is very talented but nothing between the ears... i wish him luck, i wish milan luck.
weren't we supposed to get one of their defenders?

numbers dont lie, what you're counting may not be the correct thing to count, but the number isn't wrong. its why i put up the stat about key passes versus assist. assist just shows that the player happened to play the final ball and it went in. key passes show which players are setting up attacking moves. shots attempted versus shots on target can be very useful when looking at a player, it helps demonstrate their tactical understanding of the game. passes completed, if combined with possession shows how much movement is taking place on the field. A team that has a lot of possession but low passes per game indicates a team with a lot of dribblers, and plenty of individual runs. low possession but his passes shows that the team is moving, but into the wrong space, or the decision making is wrong. high possession and high passing Ala Barca shows a team that has good movement and players with vision. finally low possesion and low passing means that the team is way out of sync, and the dribblers are terrible

Numbers lie in every sport, particularly football.  Your best bet to a statistically perfect game is baseball.

thats because baseball has developed stats that show the true nature of a player. if you havent seen moneyball, id highly reccomend it, or read the book. soccer can be analyzed like baseball when it comes to stats, we just dont look at them particularly closely/ we dont know what to look for.

i love numbers and they don't lie is true and i agree it depends what you count AND what interpretation you ,make.

a team that sits back, surrenders posseion and plays on the break may appear worse but be more effective than one that has the ball launches countless attacks and has inumerable shots.
the key is watching and using your experieince.

i am not a fan of the stats except goals fo and against and even that doesn't aslways show who the better team was, well not on the day, it tends to over the season.

i agree about the counterattacking, just look at chelsea v westham last night. they have over 25 shots, and not one went in the net.