Numbers dont lie.

[eloc]

getting rid of tarrabt was a good move. all stats in this post come from whoscored.com

tarrabt is supposed to be a support player, but averages .6 KP (key passes being passes that lead to a shot on goal) per game. this is an atrocious rate for a midfielder. however he does have one of the highest succesful dribbles per game rates in the epl with 2.3. Furthermore he has averaged 2.4 shots per game, and returned 0 goals. Hes shown a lack of accuracy and poor shot placement that deserves to be dumped from the team. ultimately, Tarrabt is a good player for getting up and down the field and mainting posession, so long as you dont want to do anything with it.

[Jamie88]

Might be a stupid question, but what is the requirement for a 'successful dribble' in these sort of stats?

[MayoDomo]

Numbers lie in every sport, particularly football.  Your best bet to a statistically perfect game is baseball.

[callumc513]

Might be a stupid question, but what is the requirement for a 'successful dribble' in these sort of stats?

I've always wondered this, it seems like quite often a player will beat him man 10ish times a game (eg Hazard) and only end up with 4 'successful dribbles'.

[nose]

the stats in football are terribly misleading
assists is one of the worst
completed passes is another useless stat
and even shots is ridiculous.
if the last one was changed to an attempt with a reasonable chance of scoring, that would be better. i have been to games with barely a chance all game and found there were 16+ attempts according to the stats....

i know taarabat is very talented but nothing between the ears... i wish him luck, i wish milan luck.
weren't we supposed to get one of their defenders?

[epsomraver]

Numbers lie in every sport, particularly football.  Your best bet to a statistically perfect game is baseball.

you mean rounders?

[YankeeJim]

I have to agree with nose here, at least partially. What does make for a successful dribble? If a player takes a long ball and pushes it around a charging defender, is that a successful dribble? If the defender slips is that successful? When I hear that phrase I think of Dembele. The man was a thing of beauty on the ball but really, the end product wasn't always there. He was better on the ball than Murphy but who hit the through ball more regularly? Results count not beauty.

As to assists, I sometimes think that too many players are given credit when someone else scores. I don't think a corner or set piece should go as an assist. It is uncontested. Now when a player passes another into a position where he can score, that should count. Think Danny hitting Jo in full stride at Citi during the great escape. I still get chills when I see the replay.  

[MayoDomo]

Numbers lie in every sport, particularly football.  Your best bet to a statistically perfect game is baseball.

you mean rounders?

Does rounders have spreadsheets like this?  :dft011:

[eloc]

Might be a stupid question, but what is the requirement for a 'successful dribble' in these sort of stats?

from the whoscored website
Dribble (Successful Dribble)- Taking on an opponent and successfully making it past them whilst retaining the ball

the stats in football are terribly misleading
assists is one of the worst
completed passes is another useless stat
and even shots is ridiculous.
if the last one was changed to an attempt with a reasonable chance of scoring, that would be better. i have been to games with barely a chance all game and found there were 16+ attempts according to the stats....

i know taarabat is very talented but nothing between the ears... i wish him luck, i wish milan luck.
weren't we supposed to get one of their defenders?

numbers dont lie, what you're counting may not be the correct thing to count, but the number isn't wrong. its why i put up the stat about key passes versus assist. assist just shows that the player happened to play the final ball and it went in. key passes show which players are setting up attacking moves. shots attempted versus shots on target can be very useful when looking at a player, it helps demonstrate their tactical understanding of the game. passes completed, if combined with possession shows how much movement is taking place on the field. A team that has a lot of possession but low passes per game indicates a team with a lot of dribblers, and plenty of individual runs. low possession but his passes shows that the team is moving, but into the wrong space, or the decision making is wrong. high possession and high passing Ala Barca shows a team that has good movement and players with vision. finally low possesion and low passing means that the team is way out of sync, and the dribblers are terrible

Numbers lie in every sport, particularly football.  Your best bet to a statistically perfect game is baseball.

thats because baseball has developed stats that show the true nature of a player. if you havent seen moneyball, id highly reccomend it, or read the book. soccer can be analyzed like baseball when it comes to stats, we just dont look at them particularly closely/ we dont know what to look for.

[YankeeJim]

Numbers lie in every sport, particularly football.  Your best bet to a statistically perfect game is baseball.

you mean rounders?

Now, now. The hardest thing in sports is hitting a fist size, spinning orb coming at you at a 95 MPH weird angle with a round object, not a tennis racket like they use in cricket. The slow pace of the game allows for a lot of time to discuss (it also puts me off) ridiculous stats like, player A has hit safely with less than two out, a runner on second, when he was behind in the count, against a lefthander, in a day game x number of times. Baseball needs a shot clock like basketball. Cricket needs a hammock. Exactly what is rounders?

[MayoDomo]

Might be a stupid question, but what is the requirement for a 'successful dribble' in these sort of stats?

from the whoscored website
Dribble (Successful Dribble)- Taking on an opponent and successfully making it past them whilst retaining the ball

the stats in football are terribly misleading
assists is one of the worst
completed passes is another useless stat
and even shots is ridiculous.
if the last one was changed to an attempt with a reasonable chance of scoring, that would be better. i have been to games with barely a chance all game and found there were 16+ attempts according to the stats....

i know taarabat is very talented but nothing between the ears... i wish him luck, i wish milan luck.
weren't we supposed to get one of their defenders?

numbers dont lie, what you're counting may not be the correct thing to count, but the number isn't wrong. its why i put up the stat about key passes versus assist. assist just shows that the player happened to play the final ball and it went in. key passes show which players are setting up attacking moves. shots attempted versus shots on target can be very useful when looking at a player, it helps demonstrate their tactical understanding of the game. passes completed, if combined with possession shows how much movement is taking place on the field. A team that has a lot of possession but low passes per game indicates a team with a lot of dribblers, and plenty of individual runs. low possession but his passes shows that the team is moving, but into the wrong space, or the decision making is wrong. high possession and high passing Ala Barca shows a team that has good movement and players with vision. finally low possesion and low passing means that the team is way out of sync, and the dribblers are terrible

Numbers lie in every sport, particularly football.  Your best bet to a statistically perfect game is baseball.

thats because baseball has developed stats that show the true nature of a player. if you havent seen moneyball, id highly reccomend it, or read the book. soccer can be analyzed like baseball when it comes to stats, we just dont look at them particularly closely/ we dont know what to look for.

OK sure, correct me if I'm wrong but you are saying soccer hasn't reached the same clarity of statistical analysis as baseball, which I would agree with.  However because it hasn't reached that point, and in my opinion is far from it, we should forego using statistics as an end-all-be-all to define a player's ability.  The beauty about baseball is it there is no complication when using stats.  Soccer statistics are very muddy, and are often misleading, so I personally think they should be stayed clear of.

[Jamie88]

Numbers lie in every sport, particularly football.  Your best bet to a statistically perfect game is baseball.

you mean rounders?

Now, now. The hardest thing in sports is hitting a fist size, spinning orb coming at you at a 95 MPH weird angle with a round object, not a tennis racket like they use in cricket. The slow pace of the game allows for a lot of time to discuss (it also puts me off) ridiculous stats like, player A has hit safely with less than two out, a runner on second, when he was behind in the count, against a lefthander, in a day game x number of times. Baseball needs a shot clock like basketball. Cricket needs a hammock. Exactly what is rounders?

...Except of course, in cricket the ball BOUNCES making it much harder whilst still potentially travelling into the mid 90mph's. But I'll let it slide just this once ;)

[eloc]

Numbers lie in every sport, particularly football.  Your best bet to a statistically perfect game is baseball.

you mean rounders?

Now, now. The hardest thing in sports is hitting a fist size, spinning orb coming at you at a 95 MPH weird angle with a round object, not a tennis racket like they use in cricket. The slow pace of the game allows for a lot of time to discuss (it also puts me off) ridiculous stats like, player A has hit safely with less than two out, a runner on second, when he was behind in the count, against a lefthander, in a day game x number of times. Baseball needs a shot clock like basketball. Cricket needs a hammock. Exactly what is rounders?

if the stats put you off, is it because you dont understand the importance of it?

[YankeeJim]

Numbers lie in every sport, particularly football.  Your best bet to a statistically perfect game is baseball.

you mean rounders?

Now, now. The hardest thing in sports is hitting a fist size, spinning orb coming at you at a 95 MPH weird angle with a round object, not a tennis racket like they use in cricket. The slow pace of the game allows for a lot of time to discuss (it also puts me off) ridiculous stats like, player A has hit safely with less than two out, a runner on second, when he was behind in the count, against a lefthander, in a day game x number of times. Baseball needs a shot clock like basketball. Cricket needs a hammock. Exactly what is rounders?

...Except of course, in cricket the ball BOUNCES making it much harder whilst still potentially travelling into the mid 90mph's. But I'll let it slide just this once ;)

\

I am aware that the ball bounces, I was nudging epsomraver back. Bouncing makes the ball erratic but until you've seen a major league pitcher constantly put the ball with different action in THAT place the stats say the player can't hit it with various motion (rising, dipping, floating, curving right or left) and at varying speeds you really can't appreciate it.

[Count Berbatov]

The stats don't lie in this case at least. Taarabt is/was good at beating his man. He drove forward and I loved see that

[YankeeJim]

Numbers lie in every sport, particularly football.  Your best bet to a statistically perfect game is baseball.

you mean rounders?

Now, now. The hardest thing in sports is hitting a fist size, spinning orb coming at you at a 95 MPH weird angle with a round object, not a tennis racket like they use in cricket. The slow pace of the game allows for a lot of time to discuss (it also puts me off) ridiculous stats like, player A has hit safely with less than two out, a runner on second, when he was behind in the count, against a lefthander, in a day game x number of times. Baseball needs a shot clock like basketball. Cricket needs a hammock. Exactly what is rounders?

if the stats put you off, is it because you dont understand the importance of it?

Not sure what your getting at. IMHO, some stats can be to much of a personal opinion. Hence, my questions. A successful pass is one thing when its being pushed around by the back four than it a give and go in the box. Still counts as a pass but one is certainly more valuable than the other. Stats provide some understanding but are difficult to quantify. That all I'm saying.

[eloc]

OK sure, correct me if I'm wrong but you are saying soccer hasn't reached the same clarity of statistical analysis as baseball, which I would agree with.  However because it hasn't reached that point, and in my opinion is far from it, we should forego using statistics as an end-all-be-all to define a player's ability.  The beauty about baseball is it there is no complication when using stats.  Soccer statistics are very muddy, and are often misleading, so I personally think they should be stayed clear of.

The statistics are there, and some clubs are using them to their advantage. Liverpool and Arsenal are two of those clubs. As far as the muddiness of the stats, I think that is because we (mainstream fans and most clubs) are looking at the wrong figures. To parallel to baseball, a good batting average doesnt necessarily mean a good hitter. You're ignoring all the times a player gets walked. It is an incomplete statistic and doesnt represent the true value of a players hitting ability. Same thing with goals scored and assists in soccer. Scoring goals means at its simplest, that you were the last person to touch the ball before it rolled over the line. An assist means you were the last person to give the ball away to a teammate before it was touched and went over the line. By looking at the stats that matter, things like key passes, or strike rates (shots per game/shots on target + goals) you are able to better understand who the really good players are. it's easy to see why ronaldo and messi are good, and that they are head an shoulders above the rest of the world. But how do you differentiate between someone like Defour and Parker? looking at numbers that are real representations of the game and not just silly statistics allows for those comparisons.

[eloc]

Not sure what your getting at. IMHO, some stats can be to much of a personal opinion. Hence, my questions. A successful pass is one thing when its being pushed around by the back four than it a give and go in the box. Still counts as a pass but one is certainly more valuable than the other. Stats provide some understanding but are difficult to quantify. That all I'm saying.

I dont get how you think stats are a personal opinion. If tarrabt averages 24.2 passes per game, he averages 24.2 passes per game. Sure they may not be 24.2 attacking passes, but it illustrates his lack of production towards the team. A stat like passing can be broken down into thirds, passing in the defensive, middle, and attacking. I cant find the statistical breakdown for tarrabt or others right now, but given the fact that .6 of his passes/game end up with a player taking a shot, and having only one assist, i think its fair to say, most of his passes are not attacking.

in reference to your baseball/rounders/cricket statistic analogy, when im talking about the importance of it, I am speaking to the idea of having an advantage over a player. Bringing in back to soccer, if im a coach and i know that Liverpool's jordan henderson takes 15 minutes on cold days(temp below 50F) to warm up to game speed and starting having more successful passes, i can exploit that weakness and maybe get a goal on a counter attack.

[MayoDomo]

OK sure, correct me if I'm wrong but you are saying soccer hasn't reached the same clarity of statistical analysis as baseball, which I would agree with.  However because it hasn't reached that point, and in my opinion is far from it, we should forego using statistics as an end-all-be-all to define a player's ability.  The beauty about baseball is it there is no complication when using stats.  Soccer statistics are very muddy, and are often misleading, so I personally think they should be stayed clear of.

The statistics are there, and some clubs are using them to their advantage. Liverpool and Arsenal are two of those clubs. As far as the muddiness of the stats, I think that is because we (mainstream fans and most clubs) are looking at the wrong figures. To parallel to baseball, a good batting average doesnt necessarily mean a good hitter. You're ignoring all the times a player gets walked. It is an incomplete statistic and doesnt represent the true value of a players hitting ability. Same thing with goals scored and assists in soccer. Scoring goals means at its simplest, that you were the last person to touch the ball before it rolled over the line. An assist means you were the last person to give the ball away to a teammate before it was touched and went over the line. By looking at the stats that matter, things like key passes, or strike rates (shots per game/shots on target + goals) you are able to better understand who the really good players are. it's easy to see why ronaldo and messi are good, and that they are head an shoulders above the rest of the world. But how do you differentiate between someone like Defour and Parker? looking at numbers that are real representations of the game and not just silly statistics allows for those comparisons.

OK, I think we're basically on the same page.  I just had an issue with your title... "Numbers don't lie."  It seems both of us agree that they can be a very good representation of a player's ability when used in the right way, but we must be skeptical when presented with data.

[nose]

Might be a stupid question, but what is the requirement for a 'successful dribble' in these sort of stats?

from the whoscored website
Dribble (Successful Dribble)- Taking on an opponent and successfully making it past them whilst retaining the ball

the stats in football are terribly misleading
assists is one of the worst
completed passes is another useless stat
and even shots is ridiculous.
if the last one was changed to an attempt with a reasonable chance of scoring, that would be better. i have been to games with barely a chance all game and found there were 16+ attempts according to the stats....

i know taarabat is very talented but nothing between the ears... i wish him luck, i wish milan luck.
weren't we supposed to get one of their defenders?

numbers dont lie, what you're counting may not be the correct thing to count, but the number isn't wrong. its why i put up the stat about key passes versus assist. assist just shows that the player happened to play the final ball and it went in. key passes show which players are setting up attacking moves. shots attempted versus shots on target can be very useful when looking at a player, it helps demonstrate their tactical understanding of the game. passes completed, if combined with possession shows how much movement is taking place on the field. A team that has a lot of possession but low passes per game indicates a team with a lot of dribblers, and plenty of individual runs. low possession but his passes shows that the team is moving, but into the wrong space, or the decision making is wrong. high possession and high passing Ala Barca shows a team that has good movement and players with vision. finally low possesion and low passing means that the team is way out of sync, and the dribblers are terrible

Numbers lie in every sport, particularly football.  Your best bet to a statistically perfect game is baseball.

thats because baseball has developed stats that show the true nature of a player. if you havent seen moneyball, id highly reccomend it, or read the book. soccer can be analyzed like baseball when it comes to stats, we just dont look at them particularly closely/ we dont know what to look for.

i love numbers and they don't lie is true and i agree it depends what you count AND what interpretation you ,make.

a team that sits back, surrenders posseion and plays on the break may appear worse but be more effective than one that has the ball launches countless attacks and has inumerable shots.
the key is watching and using your experieince.

i am not a fan of the stats except goals fo and against and even that doesn't aslways show who the better team was, well not on the day, it tends to over the season.