What Changed?

[Brian McGod]

I was thinking back to Rene's first games in charge and how well we played against Spurs and Villa at home. We were like a team completely transformed from the turgid durge we'd started to play under Jol. We were more dynamic and creative going forward, playing 3 in the middle with Kara, Parker & Sidwell and then proper out and out wingers with Dejagah & Kaca. There was also the good win away at Norwich and a decent performance at home to West Ham.

Now suddenly we've completely regressed again and look more like the team who played under Jol for the last 18 months. Firstly we dropped playing 3 in the middle and now we've also gone back to playing a ponderous, slow tempo game with no pace or width.

Do we think this is partly down to Curbishley/Wilkins? Surely if Rene could see what he was doing initially was working then he wouldn't change our style for the sake of listening to their opinions?

[JBH]

Personally i think its the Wilkins effect as he has such a negative personna  :028:

[Zu-Meister]

i think he listened to their opinions because we were playing well, but leaking goals still. he wanted to address that, and believed that wilkins/curbishley would come up with the solution. fact is we kept a clean sheet against villa and played well. we played well against spurs and everton and city, it was inevitable we would concede against them, but against teams like villa we were to be fine.....before wilkins/curbishley.

[westcliff white]

i think it is to easy or simple to blame wilkins and curbishly.

we played some good attacking football as you say and also against city as well, we need to get back to that as soon as possible, man utd are very suspect to quick football at the back these days.

For me I think a couple of things happened, Kaca lost all kinds of form, and Djegah became inconsistent. Hopefully with Holtby now in and some speed up front once Mitro is fit we can get back to that sort of game.

If we can get holtby on the ball he will make things happen, but he will need workers and people to be on form to assist him

[dgnffc]

The other thing is that Kara hasn't being playing and he - unfortunately- seems to be the only one who is capable of adding some dynamism to the team.

[Admin]

Personally, I just think he was subject to the old 'new manager syndrome'. Players raised their games for the new man, but it wore off, and Rene's ability as a manager to sustain that, failed.

I to, are not in the camp of blaming Wilkins or Curbishley. Love or hate the pair, they've had some success in football and Ancelotti certainly didn't let Wilkins ruin his style of football when at Chelsea.

Rene' asked for Wilkins remember, so he's openly taking advice of his own back, if this is the reason why the football has dropped. A good manager would not allow this to happen, prime example being Roy and Ray.

[Blanco]

Personally, I just think he was subject to the old 'new manager syndrome'. Players raised their games for the new man, but it wore off, and Rene's ability as a manager to sustain that, failed.

I was about to write this. It's a shame they couldn't have maintained it. It just shows how well they can perform when they want to. And with all our new signings imagine what kind of team we could have become.

[MJG]

Personally, I just think he was subject to the old 'new manager syndrome'. Players raised their games for the new man, but it wore off, and Rene's ability as a manager to sustain that, failed.

Its more that that. It was a clear tactical change to Jol in those first 5/6 games and then we have reverted back to basically 4 across midfield, when really the 3 CM's rotating and moving around worked in the games it was needed.

[MOR :]

Wilkins & Curbishley is what happened...

[nose]

Personally, I just think he was subject to the old 'new manager syndrome'. Players raised their games for the new man, but it wore off, and Rene's ability as a manager to sustain that, failed.

Its more that that. It was a clear tactical change to Jol in those first 5/6 games and then we have reverted back to basically 4 across midfield, when really the 3 CM's rotating and moving around worked in the games it was needed.

I agree entirely. we need the fluid central midfield 3 that buzzed around and harrassed the opposition. It was also getting the full backs far up the pitcha nd hitting early cross fiield passes to them and getting the advance fullbacks to interplay with the two wingers.

When curbs and wilks got here that all stopped, a step change. I think the issue was we leaked goals, but we looked dangerous... if we would have kept to that we would have won more than lost. going more cautious just means we lose.

AND true Kaka and dejagah are a bit inconsistent but so what, if you drop a player everytime he fails to perform then  we would have 11 different players each week. we need to accept those two aren't perfect but are the best we have and gicve us bal;ance and they need an extended run to really try and get a system that works for us.

[Brian McGod]

Personally, I just think he was subject to the old 'new manager syndrome'. Players raised their games for the new man, but it wore off, and Rene's ability as a manager to sustain that, failed.

Its more that that. It was a clear tactical change to Jol in those first 5/6 games and then we have reverted back to basically 4 across midfield, when really the 3 CM's rotating and moving around worked in the games it was needed.

I was going to post about "new manager syndrome" but like MJG I ruled it out because there was a clear tactical shift and it was working.

I also agree with nose that Dejagah & Kaca don't get enough of a consistent run, every time one of them has a poor game they seem to be dropped. Especially Dejagah, for me he has to start - he has a great understanding with Reither and brings more of a threat than Duff

[horse1031]

Wilkins and Curbishley have nothing to do with this.  Berba played like crap that is what happened.  He was useless after those games and didn't help the team at all.  When you throw in Bent and Dempsey who have played below par and thats how we don't score goals anymore.

[YoungsBitter]

Personally, I just think he was subject to the old 'new manager syndrome'. Players raised their games for the new man, but it wore off, and Rene's ability as a manager to sustain that, failed.

Its more that that. It was a clear tactical change to Jol in those first 5/6 games and then we have reverted back to basically 4 across midfield, when really the 3 CM's rotating and moving around worked in the games it was needed.

I was going to post about "new manager syndrome" but like MJG I ruled it out because there was a clear tactical shift and it was working.

I also agree with nose that Dejagah & Kaca don't get enough of a consistent run, every time one of them has a poor game they seem to be dropped. Especially Dejagah, for me he has to start - he has a great understanding with Reither and brings more of a threat than Duff

I am concerned with the constant chopping and changing too, plus the introduction of Dempsey and choice of Duff over Dejegah seems again driven by the failed desire to be tougher defensively.
As much as we can jump to blame Wilkins and Curbishley it comes down to couple of things - 1. Does Rene really know how to make the tough decisions, manager vs coach? 2. Does he have to take the advice being offered? or does he have enough idea about what is needed?
I doubt his judgement as his substitutions have been uniformly clueless, we have not yet got better after a sub. I think he is a 'pleaser' and wants to please both his new found brain trust and the players. He may have been influenced by Ali Mac over Dempsey as promises were presumably made about playing time but he should draw the line and say the guy is unfit and drop him; the fact that he has not when it has been obvious to all of us again is concerning.
Playing Holtby wide right over Dejegah seemed to be more about fitting in Sidwell, more bad judgement. I seriously doubt his ability to be anything more than a coach. Good piece in Grauniad today on the challenge of stepping out of Alex Ferguson's shadow http://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2014/feb/07/fulham-rene-meulensteen-manchester-united-sir-alex-ferguson?CMP=twt_gu