NFR – New Premier League division of B teams

[love4ffc]

Sorry if this has been discussed before.  Did a quick search and could not find a thread for this. 

Read more in the Guardian
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/may/08/premier-league-division-b-teams-fan-commission-greg-dyke-league-three-non-eu-players

So I'd like to get a feel for how both English and non-English think about this proposal.  Looking at it from what I can only imagine would be the English perspective one most definitely would like to see more "homegrown players" in PL teams.  Otherwise all the PL teams would look like city.   By my count from the official city website there are only 8 English players out of 27 players listed on the first team. 

From a non-EU point of view however I think this proposal could also hurt the English leagues.  Not to mention that I would love to see another lad from the colonies play for ffc again. 

Franklin Foer wrote a book called "How Soccer Explains the World: An Unlikely Theory of Globalization".  It's a great read for any of those who have never heard of it.  In the book it talks about how certain countries and worse even some teams failed to be more global.  Meaning they only used "homegrown players" or worse, only players that were from that particular region or even city.   Those teams suffered greatly and some almost became extinct.  I believe the example used in the book was a Scottish team however don't quote me as I have loaned my copy out to friends and family and can't remember at the moment who has it. 

For me I'd like to see more "homegrown players" in the leagues with a good mix of EU and non-EU players' throw-in.  After all a team roster should reflect the country it resides in.   So for me perhaps a PL team that had 25 players could have 16 of those being "homegrown" and the remaining 9 players consisting of EU and non-EU. 

Final note – of the immediate PL teams to throw their support behind this proposal city was one of the first.  Kind of ironic seeing how if I read the proposal correctly they would have to gut the first team in order to become compliant. 

[MJG]

50% of non EU players do not make an appearance in their second season. So for a start we need to get stricter on those work permits and I agree with the commission on none below the premier league.

I'm happy to discuss B Teams and even feeder clubs.I dont think the option Dyke has come up with will work or even get through. They have ballsed up any future move in that direction by the way they put it forward.

I'm now firmly in the camp on quota's.

Strict 25 man first team squad (14 home grown players) If you leave any player who is 22 or over out of your 25 man squad, the player has the option to have his contract fully paid up and leave the club. Only restriction would be a player with a long term injury.

U21 squads to be no more than 19 players, again with home grown quotas.

16-18 years old numbers also restricted.

This is aimed at home grown players getting a chance a also to stop clubs stockpiling players.

With loans I would allow agreements between clubs that allow 3-5 from one club to another. 5 in L2 and 3 in L1

In each case the loaning club would be required to support the lower division club in improving facilities. I.E installing all weather pitches. The idea here being that money from the higher divisions being shared around and your players on loan using good training facilities.

[fulhamben]

Its a farce, if they want to truly cap it, limit foreigners to a set number, lower the amount of squad players you can have, and make any signing over the age of say 17 and unde r 23 have a permenant squad number, so top clubs who buy kids have to have them in there squad with no loaning out

[God The Mechanic]

Lowering the number of foreign players won't make a damn bit of difference in terms of quality of English players.  It'll just lower the overall quality of the league.

Implementing a "B" team system like in Germany and Spain also won't make any real difference, as it is an ideological issue not simply a question of quality and meaning opposition at young ages.  Until we genuinely embrace technically gifted players over "up an at 'em" workers we won't develop enough players who are technically competent enough for it to matter.  If you get a bunch of talented 17/18 boys playing in the lower leagues against 25-30 year old men who love to get stuck in and leave their mark, all that will happen is that they will either get tuned to stop trying the tricks and flicks that make them interesting to watch or they will get injured, possibly career threateningly so.

We need a change of culture, not a change of law.  But no one really wants that, cos we're all about the "passion" and busting a gut just... because.  We were as guilty as anyone of that this season, the likes of Berba and Ruiz were mocked and sent away from the club because despite their undoubted quality the majority of fans wanted more Parkers and Sidwells.  The players that run around a lot but severely lack quality.  We need to find away to full accommodate the technical players who may not run around as much, who may pull out of 50/50 tackles.  But we're too set in our way about it.

[love4ffc]

Lowering the number of foreign players won't make a damn bit of difference in terms of quality of English players.  It'll just lower the overall quality of the league.

Implementing a "B" team system like in Germany and Spain also won't make any real difference, as it is an ideological issue not simply a question of quality and meaning opposition at young ages.  Until we genuinely embrace technically gifted players over "up an at 'em" workers we won't develop enough players who are technically competent enough for it to matter.  If you get a bunch of talented 17/18 boys playing in the lower leagues against 25-30 year old men who love to get stuck in and leave their mark, all that will happen is that they will either get tuned to stop trying the tricks and flicks that make them interesting to watch or they will get injured, possibly career threateningly so.

We need a change of culture, not a change of law.  But no one really wants that, cos we're all about the "passion" and busting a gut just... because.  We were as guilty as anyone of that this season, the likes of Berba and Ruiz were mocked and sent away from the club because despite their undoubted quality the majority of fans wanted more Parkers and Sidwells.  The players that run around a lot but severely lack quality.  We need to find away to full accommodate the technical players who may not run around as much, who may pull out of 50/50 tackles.  But we're too set in our way about it.

I completely agree.  There has to be a grassroots movement that starts with the youth.  If the youth don't have the passion instilled into them and kept interested in playing then all is lost.  In the states some amazing changes have taken place within the last 10 years.  Youth clubs are adding academies that start as early as age 6 which focus on just the fundamentals.  Those same youth clubs in cooperation with the U.S. Soccer Federation are developing academies for kids as early as age 12 with the highest levels of competition.   MLS teams are joining in and have also started their own U.S. Development Academies.  Those academies I have a feeling are styled after European Clubs youth development programs.  In 10, 20 and 30 years from now I think it will be very exciting to see how our national team will turn out to be.

[fulhamben]

Lowering the number of foreign players won't make a damn bit of difference in terms of quality of English players.  It'll just lower the overall quality of the league.

Implementing a "B" team system like in Germany and Spain also won't make any real difference, as it is an ideological issue not simply a question of quality and meaning opposition at young ages.  Until we genuinely embrace technically gifted players over "up an at 'em" workers we won't develop enough players who are technically competent enough for it to matter.  If you get a bunch of talented 17/18 boys playing in the lower leagues against 25-30 year old men who love to get stuck in and leave their mark, all that will happen is that they will either get tuned to stop trying the tricks and flicks that make them interesting to watch or they will get injured, possibly career threateningly so.

We need a change of culture, not a change of law.  But no one really wants that, cos we're all about the "passion" and busting a gut just... because.  We were as guilty as anyone of that this season, the likes of Berba and Ruiz were mocked and sent away from the club because despite their undoubted quality the majority of fans wanted more Parkers and Sidwells.  The players that run around a lot but severely lack quality.  We need to find away to full accommodate the technical players who may not run around as much, who may pull out of 50/50 tackles.  But we're too set in our way about it.

how will it not make england stronger? ok it might not make the first 11 better, but it will give us better back up options, it cant not. and who cares if our league isnt as strong, its only the mega rich that does ok in europe anway and who gives a fig about them. english jobs for english workers

[God The Mechanic]

If you remove the top quality foreign players, the middling/mediocre English players don't automatically get better.  If the quality was there, then we would be seeing it irrespective of how many foreign players there are in the league.  We may well have a bigger pool of players from the bigger teams, but that won't mean that they are any better.  Just that the quality of competition from abroad has been removed.

The plan should be to produce better players, not just increase the number of average (inn a world perspective) ones.  Preventing better players from abroad will only serve to lower the overall quality.

It stems from coaching at a young age.  We need more and better coaches throughout the game, not a B team for a select few bigger teams and a ban on non-EU players.

"English jobs for English workers" also makes no sense.  You want to employ the best you can, if they're not English then that's not the fault of the foreign worker.  if the English workers want the best paid jobs then they need to work for it and have the qualifications needed, there should be no expectation purely because they're English.

[MJG]

and a ban on non-EU players.

Just on this point, do you not think its shocking that clubs try so hard to get non Eu players in and the a year later 50% of them dont play at all the next season?

[God The Mechanic]

and a ban on non-EU players.

Just on this point, do you not think its shocking that clubs try so hard to get non Eu players in and the a year later 50% of them dont play at all the next season?

I wouldn't say shocking - it shows poor scouting and due diligence from the clubs more than anything.  But that doesn't explain the reasons for them not playing the second season.  How many of them weren't played because they weren't good enough?  There could be injuries, homesickness or family issues behind them, or even a better offer from abroad?  If there is proof that they aren't being played because they are simply not good enough, then the work permit process needs to be reviewed and probably tightened.

I'm not sure how comparable it is to non-footballing VISAs either.  if it is the same sort of process and the same questions are asked and have to be answered to the same degree, then there really isn't anything that needs to be changed.  Also, managerial turnover is higher in football than probably any other business.  It's entirely plausible that a player was bought with genuine intent to be played every week, but the manager was replaced and the player fell out of favour.  That's not a fault of the player or the process.  More just a casualty of the business they work in.

[MJG]

80% of work permit appeals get through. That's why it should.be stricter.
I understand the points you put forward, but without checking do you think 50% of ALL purchases do not play a game in their second season...I think not.

[God The Mechanic]

I'd be very surprised if that was the case.

However, if we're looking at the stats in the context of "improving quality of English players" we need to determine the number of players not playing in the second season because they're not up to the job.  If it was just a case of someone thinking there are too many non EU players in the PL and wanting to reduce that number, then fair enough.  But being used in this context we can't just take the number on face value.

Also, it's not like when there were very few non-English let alone non-EU players in the top division England was dominating the world scene.

That 50% (read 40% elsewhere, but that's neither here nor there...), is that a number from the start of the PL, from the turn of the century, last few years?  How relevant a statistic is that to now?

[fulhamben]

If you remove the top quality foreign players, the middling/mediocre English players don't automatically get better.  If the quality was there, then we would be seeing it irrespective of how many foreign players there are in the league.  We may well have a bigger pool of players from the bigger teams, but that won't mean that they are any better.  Just that the quality of competition from abroad has been removed.

The plan should be to produce better players, not just increase the number of average (inn a world perspective) ones.  Preventing better players from abroad will only serve to lower the overall quality.

It stems from coaching at a young age.  We need more and better coaches throughout the game, not a B team for a select few bigger teams and a ban on non-EU players.

"English jobs for English workers" also makes no sense.  You want to employ the best you can, if they're not English then that's not the fault of the foreign worker.  if the English workers want the best paid jobs then they need to work for it and have the qualifications needed, there should be no expectation purely because they're English.

have you ever considered there are more foriegn players because they are just simply cheaper.have they worked for it, or earnt it? and stuff the money side of it, i would simply rather have more english players as that means there would be more chance of getting to see one play for england. if roberts does ever get the call up and is still with us, it will give me more pride than say having an excellt prem striker in saha ever would. prefer to see our players come through the youths over players bought in every time. and if they are english than all the better.

[God The Mechanic]

Value for money obviously comes into play, but you honestly can't say that the top English players are as good as some of the top non-English players.  If the quality isn't there then the quality isn't there.  I don't understand the concept of buying a substandard English product purely because it is English, over a better potentially cheaper foreign one.

I would LOVE to see a quality player come through the Fulham ranks.  If he is English then fair enough, but if he's Spanish, French, Belgian, Irish, Welsh, I couldn't care less.  If we have a fantastic French striker coming through the ranks and he's disadvantaged in order to accommodate a less good English player, then I think we should ALL have an issue with that.  We should be promoting the best, not the most local - if they are one and the same, them awesome.  If not, then so be it.

[MJG]

I'd be very surprised if that was the case.

However, if we're looking at the stats in the context of "improving quality of English players" we need to determine the number of players not playing in the second season because they're not up to the job.  If it was just a case of someone thinking there are too many non EU players in the PL and wanting to reduce that number, then fair enough.  But being used in this context we can't just take the number on face value.

Also, it's not like when there were very few non-English let alone non-EU players in the top division England was dominating the world scene.

That 50% (read 40% elsewhere, but that's neither here nor there...), is that a number from the start of the PL, from the turn of the century, last few years?  How relevant a statistic is that to now?

122 players since 2009 have used a visa.
50% of them needed to appeal and 79% of them were successful.
19% of the 122 went into the FL.
55% of the PL players played less the avergae miniutes for a PL player.
42% of players do not kick a ball in their second season. (So OK not the 50% I said)

[fulhamben]

Value for money obviously comes into play, but you honestly can't say that the top English players are as good as some of the top non-English players.  If the quality isn't there then the quality isn't there.  I don't understand the concept of buying a substandard English product purely because it is English, over a better potentially cheaper foreign one.

I would LOVE to see a quality player come through the Fulham ranks.  If he is English then fair enough, but if he's Spanish, French, Belgian, Irish, Welsh, I couldn't care less.  If we have a fantastic French striker coming through the ranks and he's disadvantaged in order to accommodate a less good English player, then I think we should ALL have an issue with that.  We should be promoting the best, not the most local - if they are one and the same, them awesome.  If not, then so be it.

yes there are probably a handfull of forigners that are better than the english players, but thats not the problem is it. its the large % of average foriegners that take up spaces in the squads and some of which dont even get named in the 25 that cause the damage

[MJG]

For me its all about get players(and nationally does not matter) of 21 and under playing games.
I might have the teams wrong but I'm sure I read that between Stoke and West Ham only 1 player under 25 made a debut this season from within youth systems.

[God The Mechanic]

Value for money obviously comes into play, but you honestly can't say that the top English players are as good as some of the top non-English players.  If the quality isn't there then the quality isn't there.  I don't understand the concept of buying a substandard English product purely because it is English, over a better potentially cheaper foreign one.

I would LOVE to see a quality player come through the Fulham ranks.  If he is English then fair enough, but if he's Spanish, French, Belgian, Irish, Welsh, I couldn't care less.  If we have a fantastic French striker coming through the ranks and he's disadvantaged in order to accommodate a less good English player, then I think we should ALL have an issue with that.  We should be promoting the best, not the most local - if they are one and the same, them awesome.  If not, then so be it.

yes there are probably a handfull of forigners that are better than the english players, but thats not the problem is it. its the large % of average foriegners that take up spaces in the squads and some of which dont even get named in the 25 that cause the damage

The best players at most clubs are foreign!  How many foreign players don't get named in the 25 man squad?  Is there a number for it?  And if they did, they're not getting in the way of anybody if they're not allowed to play!

[God The Mechanic]

Those are better stats!

How many of the players that immediately got permits are part of the 42%?  If the immediate acceptances are largely fine, then it is the appeals process that either needs to be looked into or abandoned.
Of the 19% that went into the FL, how many stayed with relegated clubs and how many were transferred out?  How much of that is due to a lack of money available in the lower leagues, so those teams had to look for cheaper alternatives to their main (potentially English) targets?  How relevant IS that 19% if we're concerned with increasing the quality of the top English players - players the report(ers) deemed  "clearly not "highest level"".
If 55% played less than the average minutes for a PL player, how can they be accused of preventing quality English players from having a shot at top level, first team football?

The players at the very top; the likes of Yaya, Aguero, Oscar, Drogba, Zabaleta; can't be accused of taking the place of equally good English players because they are some of the very best at what they do.  There simply aren't English players with the same skills or ability as them.
The players at the very bottom, the ones that this report goes to pains to point out, are either not good enough or don't get sufficient minutes to infringe on up and coming players.  If they're not good enough and not playing, they can't be accused of being the problem in developing young English talent.
How many of them are the distinctly average, the likes of Dikgacoi had he played 35 games a season for us, that could genuinely be accused of being in the way of clubs nurturing local (or just English) players who could do the job just as well.
If the non-EU players are the bookends, either the exceptional or the very poor, then they aren't hampering younger English players.  If there was a young striker as good as Aguero, he'd get a game.  If there was someone as bruisingly powerful as Yaya, they'd be playing regularly.  They aren't getting games because they don't exist!

[MJG]

The reports point on non Europe players is that outside the top quality...the 20-30 who do pass the visa rule first time are fine. Its the review process that is flawed and they recommend reviewing that.
The 25-30 in the FL is 1 player per squad if you take it as the championship. Again the main aim of the report is the give English players more games. Hence no non Eu players in league below. This could allow one more player say on loan to play in those teams.
As I said in my first post, quotas are the way forward and restrictions in squad sizes.  My hope then would be players getting more chances to actually play.
No one says stop the quality players coming and playing here, but lets take our own squad. We have Riether at RB. Then we have Zevortic. No chance for Passley, Grimmer or anyone else to really make the breakthrough due to reluctance to give them more than one game in the cup.Should he be here? Is he stopping the progress of young British players?
Players improve by playing competitive games. A whole host of young players are not getting those chances. So artificial restrictions are required to get them in squads.

[God The Mechanic]

I wrote a nice long reply to this but for some reason FOF decided to refresh the page half way through...

20-30 players is about 1% of the entire football league - that isn't enough to prevent genuinely good players from making early debuts and playing regularly.
122 non-EU players since 2009 is 5% of this season's player base, again not enough to prevent genuine quality players playing time.
The FA report wants England to produce players like Xavi, Iniesta, Messi - three players who benefited from B team football - if they existed in England they'd be playing.  The PL doesn't have players of that ability, not English or foreign.
If there are young players in England who think they're good enough, or who ARE good enough, to command first team places but aren't getting games then why not move abroad.  There are SO few young English players taking the risks that young foreign players take in moving to an entirely new country and culture.  THAT is more of a hindrance to developing young English players than anything else.  If players are happy enough to sit on the bench and pick up a wage rather than take a risk in a foreign league, then they deserve to be where they are.