Penalty yesterday and defending at corners nowadays

[Chesh]

 :028:

Now this is a massive bugbear of mine, as I used to be a centre half, and like to think I understand defending balls into the box (I was quite 'agricultural' lol! - more Roger Brown than Tony Gale  :005:)

Anyway, who the **** has decided over the last 10 years or so (and increasingly) that the way to defend  a corner is to stand at right angles, facing away from the ball, and holding onto the forward, looking more like netball than football?

Whatever happened to defenders backing themselves to keep goal-side, and powerfully jump with the forward, to head the ball away?

That from Burgess yesterday was totally pathetic, yet with Kit saying it was a 'disputable' penalty (do me a favour, he was all over him with the ball nowhere near), and from watching every game nowadays, it is clear that the players are 'coached' into this type of defending.

I really would like to know, is it the accepted method nowadays, and if so why, as it is absolutely spoiling the game, and in my eyes is absolute **** defending!

Refs bottle it,and don't stamp it out, but why do coaches think it's the way to do it?

Just bloody beat your man to the ball and head it away....

As you can tell, it does my head in, but if anyone can shed any light as to why it is favoured nowadays I'd love to hear it. No wonder our players can't defend anymore!

:dft007:

[JoelH5]

Because if it's a case of simply beating your man, it's down to a 50/50. Would you want to open up the risk of the opposition getting a shot off from 50% of corners?

Actually, we'd probably take those stats at the moment.

[BedsFFC]

I'm not a Kit basher but hearing him scream "OUT" whenever a ball went into our box, somehow bothered me.

It just felt so Sunday league.

I think of all the coaches I admire and none would do this as it's.....so bloody obvious. Something a fan would shout.

Or am I being harsh?

[Chesh]

Because if it's a case of simply beating your man, it's down to a 50/50. Would you want to open up the risk of the opposition getting a shot off from 50% of corners?

Actually, we'd probably take those stats at the moment.

Just don't understand how looking at the man (instead of the ball) and holding/pulling him down is even legal, let alone effective (as more often than not, both players end up in a heap, allowing someone else to nip in and score - as per Smith's defending for Wigan's equaliser at home).

If the defenders are good/strong enough (yes, I know, they're not at the moment), and as I say goal-side, then they should be favourite, as they've only got to get it high and wide, whereas the forward has to direct it on target under a strong challenge.

Sorry, I still don't get it...

[bill taylors apprentice]

:028:

Now this is a massive bugbear of mine, as I used to be a centre half, and like to think I understand defending balls into the box (I was quite 'agricultural' lol! - more Roger Brown than Tony Gale  :005:)

Anyway, who the **** has decided over the last 10 years or so (and increasingly) that the way to defend  a corner is to stand at right angles, facing away from the ball, and holding onto the forward, looking more like netball than football?

Whatever happened to defenders backing themselves to keep goal-side, and powerfully jump with the forward, to head the ball away?

That from Burgess yesterday was totally pathetic, yet with Kit saying it was a 'disputable' penalty (do me a favour, he was all over him with the ball nowhere near), and from watching every game nowadays, it is clear that the players are 'coached' into this type of defending.

I really would like to know, is it the accepted method nowadays, and if so why, as it is absolutely spoiling the game, and in my eyes is absolute **** defending!

Refs bottle it,and don't stamp it out, but why do coaches think it's the way to do it?

Just bloody beat your man to the ball and head it away....

As you can tell, it does my head in, but if anyone can shed any light as to why it is favoured nowadays I'd love to hear it. No wonder our players can't defend anymore!

:dft007:

Totally agree!
And what happened about having a defending player on each post?

[Domino 1879]

We had a problem with defending set pieces all last season.  Given that Kit was a defender I find that incredulous. 
Strikes me that getting a defence organised is a basic attribute of coaching.
 
Dont want to knock Kit, but as commented elsewhere on this forum, Woy got the team organised so everyone knew their job and we made it difficult for the opposition.  I want to see a vast improvement from the last two seasons where we conceded 80 + goals.

[Chesh]

I'm not a Kit basher but hearing him scream "OUT" whenever a ball went into our box, somehow bothered me.

It just felt so Sunday league.

I think of all the coaches I admire and none would do this as it's.....so bloody obvious. Something a fan would shout.

Or am I being harsh?

If he's encouraging them to attack, and head the ball (as opposed to all the grabbing rubbish), then I have no problem with him shouting 'OUT' as it comes high into the area, as that is exactly what they should be doing.

No harm with a bit of encouragement from the manager - it seems they need it lol!

[millsy]

Agree the penalty was 100% correct. CB lost his man and grabbed him from behind with both hands, with the ref having a clear view from that side of the play. Basic error, compounded by desperate attempt to save situation, in my view.

Also agree with Chesh's comments re. Backing yourself to go for the ball, rather than trying to hamper your man. To be fair, Dan invariably does so and wins most of those battles. As Chesh says, the defender only has to make good contact and direct up and away from area, while the attacker has to not just win the duel but also direct the ball much more precisely, so the odds are very much in the CB's favour.

I never played full-back but, like you, questioned all last season why our FBs stood so far off their wide men. In every game, home or away, I found myself screaming to them to get closer so that they could hit them as the ball arrived but had to watch in horror as the winger or wing-back calmly took the ball down, under no pressure, had time to look up and decide to either send over a cross or take a run at the now approaching defender. Anyone knows that it's easier to catch the man while he's stationary and/or controlling a football, rather than trying to stop him when he's running at you with the ball already at his feet. Basic stuff!

I'm no coach but all this is beyond me and gives me the shudders when I'm watching.

[cmg]

Agree 100% with Chesh.
To make sure I'm not misremembering things, I've just looked at the 1970 Cup Final (Leeds v Chelsea). Two matches between sides well stocked with noted hardmen and the replay recognized as one of the most violent encounters in football history (what cracking games, though!).
Despite the x-rated tackles and off-the-ball stuff, EVERY single set piece ball into the box is contested completely in accordance with the Laws (which haven't changed today, as far as I know). No holding, shirt-tugging, half-nelsons or strangulations - just intelligent marking and athletic challenges.
It can only be a gradual relaxation by the referees that has led to today's mayhem.

[MasterHaynes]

:028:

Now this is a massive bugbear of mine, as I used to be a centre half, and like to think I understand defending balls into the box (I was quite 'agricultural' lol! - more Roger Brown than Tony Gale  :005:)

Anyway, who the **** has decided over the last 10 years or so (and increasingly) that the way to defend  a corner is to stand at right angles, facing away from the ball, and holding onto the forward, looking more like netball than football?

Whatever happened to defenders backing themselves to keep goal-side, and powerfully jump with the forward, to head the ball away?

That from Burgess yesterday was totally pathetic, yet with Kit saying it was a 'disputable' penalty (do me a favour, he was all over him with the ball nowhere near), and from watching every game nowadays, it is clear that the players are 'coached' into this type of defending.

I really would like to know, is it the accepted method nowadays, and if so why, as it is absolutely spoiling the game, and in my eyes is absolute **** defending!

Refs bottle it,and don't stamp it out, but why do coaches think it's the way to do it?

Just bloody beat your man to the ball and head it away....

As you can tell, it does my head in, but if anyone can shed any light as to why it is favoured nowadays I'd love to hear it. No wonder our players can't defend anymore!

:dft007:

Totally agree!
And what happened about having a defending player on each post?

In my day if you had a tall forward against you the team was set up to prevent crosses coming into the danger area, doubling up on the winger to make them lay it back and our winger to have tracked back to prevent the fullback backing up getting in a cross.
Last season we ignored the principle of giving away corners as an absolute last resort it seemed as if we wanted to give away as many corners as we could.
I also don't understand why when a corner was conceded a man is not placed (and stays)on both posts

[FulhamStu]

Fact is, whilst not official, there is one rule for inside the box and one for the rest of the pitch.  Refs bottle it and don't give the penalty because ' they can't be sure'.  Re the holding players from set pieces, I suspect its lazy defending and coached so that a smaller player can overcome a bigger one - this practice has now spread to even the centre halves doing this.  I am totally with Chesh and the rest, its rubbish and your centre halves should have the ability to attack and win the ball at all costs.  If refs started to give penealties, this would force defenders and coaches to play the game as it was mean't.

[Chesh]

Fact is, whilst not official, there is one rule for inside the box and one for the rest of the pitch.  Refs bottle it and don't give the penalty because ' they can't be sure'.  Re the holding players from set pieces, I suspect its lazy defending and coached so that a smaller player can overcome a bigger one - this practice has now spread to even the centre halves doing this.  I am totally with Chesh and the rest, its rubbish and your centre halves should have the ability to attack and win the ball at all costs.  If refs started to give penealties, this would force defenders and coaches to play the game as it was mean't.

:plus one:

[Woolly Mammoth]

:028:

Now this is a massive bugbear of mine, as I used to be a centre half, and like to think I understand defending balls into the box (I was quite 'agricultural' lol! - more Roger Brown than Tony Gale  :005:)

Anyway, who the **** has decided over the last 10 years or so (and increasingly) that the way to defend  a corner is to stand at right angles, facing away from the ball, and holding onto the forward, looking more like netball than football?

Whatever happened to defenders backing themselves to keep goal-side, and powerfully jump with the forward, to head the ball away?

That from Burgess yesterday was totally pathetic, yet with Kit saying it was a 'disputable' penalty (do me a favour, he was all over him with the ball nowhere near), and from watching every game nowadays, it is clear that the players are 'coached' into this type of defending.

I really would like to know, is it the accepted method nowadays, and if so why, as it is absolutely spoiling the game, and in my eyes is absolute **** defending!

Refs bottle it,and don't stamp it out, but why do coaches think it's the way to do it?

Just bloody beat your man to the ball and head it away....

As you can tell, it does my head in, but if anyone can shed any light as to why it is favoured nowadays I'd love to hear it. No wonder our players can't defend anymore!

:dft007:

I agree, one of the first rules of defending at corners, is don't let your opponent get in front of you, Be first and be strong and attack the ball, above everyone else you should be hearing the Goalkeeper and defenders calling. There was no leader at the back yesterday marshalling the defence, or last Saturday come to think of it.

[Rupert]

The problem with the ref penalising everything is it has a massive impact on the game, maybe okay at local parks level, but try doing it in front of 20,000 fans.
I once gave six penalties in a game, three each (ended 2-2 as both sides missed one), every one was a solid penalty, handball, trip, push, another hand ball, can't recall exactly what the other two were for. The thing is, by the fifth penalty I had players on both sides complaining that I might as well go for a penalty shoot-out. After the sixth I had both captains whining, I shut them up by telling them that if they didn't want any more penalties then they needed to cut out the stupid fouls.

Now that was me just refereeing normally. If the refs really went to town on tugs, pushes, etc, in the area, it would cause an uproar. As for the claim that it would only be for a week or two, then everyone would stop doing it, I have my doubts. A lot of players are not the most intelligent of men, it could take a few years to break them of their habits. And wait for the complaints about United/City getting more penalties than the small teams in the meantime, though with their territorial domination that would be the most logical outcome. Then there would be the simulated tug/push, attackers claiming for every touch...

Anyone up for a couple of years of random lottery matches?

[millsy]

Boring I know but I agree with FulhamStu too re. Giving penalties and bookings for holding but there doesn't seem to be any will to do this for some strange reason.

I did bring this up with a good standard amateur ref some while ago and this is what he said in defence of his colleagues. "When a corner is awarded the ball is out of play and thus the ref cannot penalise a defender who has his arms around the forward or grabbing a handful of shirt. Most defenders are coached to hold and then let go as the whistle blows for the corner to be taken, so the ref has no infringement in-play to punish". I think this is a total cop-out personally but maybe this is what they hide behind. Anyway, from what I can see, the holding and pulling goes on not only after the whistle but even when the ball has been delivered into the box! As has been said, many now don't even watch the ball but prefer to focus on baulking their man instead. Cowardly and an admittance that they don't feel they can compete for the ball fairly and win. Very sad that those in charge of our game continue to allow/condone this behaviour, to the detriment of the spectacle and to the practice of correct football skills.

[Chesh]

I did bring this up with a good standard amateur ref some while ago and this is what he said in defence of his colleagues. "When a corner is awarded the ball is out of play and thus the ref cannot penalise a defender who has his arms around the forward or grabbing a handful of shirt. Most defenders are coached to hold and then let go as the whistle blows for the corner to be taken, so the ref has no infringement in-play to punish".

Thanks millsy - very useful insight, as I hadn't known about that (not that it makes it right of course). As you say though, and as happened yesterday, they don't let go anyway, so it's a right mess!

[Barrett487]

I'm not a Kit basher but hearing him scream "OUT" whenever a ball went into our box, somehow bothered me.

It just felt so Sunday league.

I think of all the coaches I admire and none would do this as it's.....so bloody obvious. Something a fan would shout.

Or am I being harsh?

Maybe Kit's shouting "Out" as an audible reminder of the style of communication he expects during a game..... if that's the case, he should have done this last season.

Perhaps this is Budurov's English word of the week.  fp.gif

Regarding full-back play, it would help if we had some speed in that position, maybe they'd get two bites of the cherry then.

[epsomraver]

:028:

Now this is a massive bugbear of mine, as I used to be a centre half, and like to think I understand defending balls into the box (I was quite 'agricultural' lol! - more Roger Brown than Tony Gale  :005:)

Anyway, who the **** has decided over the last 10 years or so (and increasingly) that the way to defend  a corner is to stand at right angles, facing away from the ball, and holding onto the forward, looking more like netball than football?

Whatever happened to defenders backing themselves to keep goal-side, and powerfully jump with the forward, to head the ball away?

That from Burgess yesterday was totally pathetic, yet with Kit saying it was a 'disputable' penalty (do me a favour, he was all over him with the ball nowhere near), and from watching every game nowadays, it is clear that the players are 'coached' into this type of defending.

I really would like to know, is it the accepted method nowadays, and if so why, as it is absolutely spoiling the game, and in my eyes is absolute **** defending!

Refs bottle it,and don't stamp it out, but why do coaches think it's the way to do it?

Just bloody beat your man to the ball and head it away....

As you can tell, it does my head in, but if anyone can shed any light as to why it is favoured nowadays I'd love to hear it. No wonder our players can't defend anymore!

:dft007:

:plus one: :plus one: