Who are the kings of London and where would we rank based on head to heads?

[dannyboi-ffc]

If someone wants to spend all day researching then that's fine by me and let us know the results but if you had to guess who has the most points to game ratio against other London clubs who would come out on top. And more importantly where would you guess Fulham will sit in that table?

It doesn't necessarily have to be Arsenal because one of the lower teams might always win against other lesser teams. Based on the fact since the millenium Wenger has never beaten Mourinho and Spurs notoriously struggle against Chelsea I would say Chelsea would have the most points overall.

Sadly I can see us being about 4th from bottom above Wimbledon (or afc equivalent), Barnet and orient. Dare I say it even Qpr and Brentford may be above us. Please someone tell me I'm wrong lol!

[Ged]

I cant see Brentford being above us as last season was the first time in 100 years that they finnished above us but it  will be close with qpr
But it would be hard to judge as some teams like Brentford and arsenal will hardly ever have played each other

[Nick Bateman]

If someone wants to spend all day researching then that's fine by me and let us know the results but if you had to guess who has the most points to game ratio against other London clubs who would come out on top. And more importantly where would you guess Fulham will sit in that table?

It doesn't necessarily have to be Arsenal because one of the lower teams might always win against other lesser teams. Based on the fact since the millenium Wenger has never beaten Mourinho and Spurs notoriously struggle against Chelsea I would say Chelsea would have the most points overall.

Sadly I can see us being about 4th from bottom above Wimbledon (or afc equivalent), Barnet and orient. Dare I say it even Qpr and Brentford may be above us. Please someone tell me I'm wrong lol!

This shows the level you feel Fulham have fallen under Khan's ownership, and it is hard to disagree.

I would say, if the owner showed more ambition THIS season, you may revise that view upwards.  In truth, Tony Fernandez invests more money into QPR than Khan, under advice from penny-pincher Ali Mack, would even dream of doing!

[dannyboi-ffc]

If someone wants to spend all day researching then that's fine by me and let us know the results but if you had to guess who has the most points to game ratio against other London clubs who would come out on top. And more importantly where would you guess Fulham will sit in that table?

It doesn't necessarily have to be Arsenal because one of the lower teams might always win against other lesser teams. Based on the fact since the millenium Wenger has never beaten Mourinho and Spurs notoriously struggle against Chelsea I would say Chelsea would have the most points overall.

Sadly I can see us being about 4th from bottom above Wimbledon (or afc equivalent), Barnet and orient. Dare I say it even Qpr and Brentford may be above us. Please someone tell me I'm wrong lol!

This shows the level you feel Fulham have fallen under Khan's ownership, and it is hard to disagree.

I would say, if the owner showed more ambition THIS season, you may revise that view upwards.  In truth, Tony Fernandez invests more money into QPR than Khan, under advice from penny-pincher Ali Mack, would even dream of doing!

I think you are going off subject a bit. Our fall from grace has not altered my opinion on who is the bigger club in London. For me we still sit joint 5th with Charlton behind the obvious 4.

My question is based on what would be an all time list of results taken over every London derby since the football league began and calculating the most successful team on a points to game ratio. I remember reading that Fulham sit bottom of the head to head table with Brentford Qpr and Chelsea. That doesn't mean or prove they are bigger or better, it just means in the history of the club's they have come out on top in games against us. Just like we have with Norwich but you could argue Norwich are the same size as us if not a bit bigger.

[alfie]

If someone wants to spend all day researching then that's fine by me and let us know the results but if you had to guess who has the most points to game ratio against other London clubs who would come out on top. And more importantly where would you guess Fulham will sit in that table?

It doesn't necessarily have to be Arsenal because one of the lower teams might always win against other lesser teams. Based on the fact since the millenium Wenger has never beaten Mourinho and Spurs notoriously struggle against Chelsea I would say Chelsea would have the most points overall.

Sadly I can see us being about 4th from bottom above Wimbledon (or afc equivalent), Barnet and orient. Dare I say it even Qpr and Brentford may be above us. Please someone tell me I'm wrong lol!

This shows the level you feel Fulham have fallen under Khan's ownership, and it is hard to disagree.

I would say, if the owner showed more ambition THIS season, you may revise that view upwards.  In truth, Tony Fernandez invests more money into QPR than Khan, under advice from penny-pincher Ali Mack, would even dream of doing!

I get the impression that your philosophy is to buy buy buy, and don't care whether it affects the club. Please explain more ambition, we have brought in a few of quality players, I do believe you tend to forget that we are a championship side that struggled big time last 2 seasons, and you seem to expect us to go out a bring in expensive big time players. Yes I would love to see some of those here, but not yet.

[Nick Bateman]

I get the impression that your philosophy is to buy buy buy, and don't care whether it affects the club. Please explain more ambition, we have brought in a few of quality players, I do believe you tend to forget that we are a championship side that struggled big time last 2 seasons, and you seem to expect us to go out a bring in expensive big time players. Yes I would love to see some of those here, but not yet.

Far from it Alfie.  But if that's the impression I gave you allow me to clarify where I stand.

I firmly believe the ownership and administration of Fulham are withholding serious monies from rebuilding the team dismantled very recently, and some who constantly quote FL FFP regulations are incorrect to use this EXCUSE to what does seem a lack of investment, which even these FFP proclaimers do not dispute.

And I think we can spend far more without endangering our financial future nor rebuilding plans, an exact figure is hard to guess but well over £10million in this transfer window.  That could bring in 2-3 marquee signings which would change the entire perspective of Fulham by it's fans to our rivals and how the media perceive us.

They (the Northerners among others) would begin to rightly 'fear' Fulham again and high expectations would LIFT the team.  It is how Mohamed Al Fayed would have done things, and one would appreciate Khan following in those footsteps, and get the critics like myself off his. and Alistair Mackintosh's backs!

[Northern Cottager]

I get the impression that your philosophy is to buy buy buy, and don't care whether it affects the club. Please explain more ambition, we have brought in a few of quality players, I do believe you tend to forget that we are a championship side that struggled big time last 2 seasons, and you seem to expect us to go out a bring in expensive big time players. Yes I would love to see some of those here, but not yet.

Far from it Alfie.  But if that's the impression I gave you allow me to clarify where I stand.

I firmly believe the ownership and administration of Fulham are withholding serious monies from rebuilding the team dismantled very recently, and some who constantly quote FL FFP regulations are incorrect to use this EXCUSE to what does seem a lack of investment, which even these FFP proclaimers do not dispute.

And I think we can spend far more without endangering our financial future nor rebuilding plans, an exact figure is hard to guess but well over £10million in this transfer window.  That could bring in 2-3 marquee signings which would change the entire perspective of Fulham by it's fans to our rivals and how the media perceive us.

They (the Northerners among others) would begin to rightly 'fear' Fulham again and high expectations would LIFT the team.  It is how Mohamed Al Fayed would have done things, and one would appreciate Khan following in those footsteps, and get the critics like myself off his. and Alistair Mackintosh's backs!

The northerners? One does not half talk some ....

[cmg]

Our head-to-heads are reasonably easy to sort out.
These include Cup meetings - but that shouldn't make much difference.
Something to cheer up a dull day:

                                 w    d   l           'Pts' dif @ 3pts/win
v Crystal Palace         17  15  11                  19
   Millwall                  16   12  14                   6
   Brentford               20   14  18                   6
   QPR                       13    5   13                  0
   Fulham
   Orient                    33   27  34                  - 3
   WHU                      32   23  46                  -42
   Arsenal                    8   10  37                    -90
   Spurs                     18   29  48                  -96
   Chelsea                    9   25  46                 -111

Surprised how poorly we have done against Orient.
Obviously we are disadvantaged by having played the 'big' boys so often.                     

[Vienna1]

Can we at least qualify as "London's Kings of Hearts? Even though Chelsea arguably are the best club in the city: Who on earth likes them anyway? Fulham FC at least are a sympathetic club

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[alfie]

I get the impression that your philosophy is to buy buy buy, and don't care whether it affects the club. Please explain more ambition, we have brought in a few of quality players, I do believe you tend to forget that we are a championship side that struggled big time last 2 seasons, and you seem to expect us to go out a bring in expensive big time players. Yes I would love to see some of those here, but not yet.

Far from it Alfie.  But if that's the impression I gave you allow me to clarify where I stand.

I firmly believe the ownership and administration of Fulham are withholding serious monies from rebuilding the team dismantled very recently, and some who constantly quote FL FFP regulations are incorrect to use this EXCUSE to what does seem a lack of investment, which even these FFP proclaimers do not dispute.

And I think we can spend far more without endangering our financial future nor rebuilding plans, an exact figure is hard to guess but well over £10million in this transfer window.  That could bring in 2-3 marquee signings which would change the entire perspective of Fulham by it's fans to our rivals and how the media perceive us.

They (the Northerners among others) would begin to rightly 'fear' Fulham again and high expectations would LIFT the team.  It is how Mohamed Al Fayed would have done things, and one would appreciate Khan following in those footsteps, and get the critics like myself off his. and Alistair Mackintosh's backs!

The point is Nick you say you firmly believe,
I am guessing that you probably do not know any more than the majority of us, could it be that the team management have gone and got who they wanted, it just maybe that they have not requested vast sums of money, the money may well be there if they want it, but they have to request it and we do not know if they have or have not.

[Airfix]

If someone wants to spend all day researching then that's fine by me and let us know the results but if you had to guess who has the most points to game ratio against other London clubs who would come out on top. And more importantly where would you guess Fulham will sit in that table?

It doesn't necessarily have to be Arsenal because one of the lower teams might always win against other lesser teams. Based on the fact since the millenium Wenger has never beaten Mourinho and Spurs notoriously struggle against Chelsea I would say Chelsea would have the most points overall.

Sadly I can see us being about 4th from bottom above Wimbledon (or afc equivalent), Barnet and orient. Dare I say it even Qpr and Brentford may be above us. Please someone tell me I'm wrong lol!

If we were to try to work this out, there are myriad questions that you need to answer before a considered response can be given:

1. Do you want to include cup games or not?
2. How many points for a win?  For a long time it was two, now it is three.
3. Based on the answer to Q1, if yes, how many points for a win there?
4. For Wimbledon, do we use "Old Wimbledon" before the move to Milton Keynes and add AFC Wimbledon thereafter, or treat Old Wimbledon and AFC as separate entities?
5. Based on your answer to Q4, do we add MK Dons to Old Wimbledon?
6. Where, in your opinion, is London?  Which teams are included?
7. For league games, are you only including matches played in the top four flights?  For example, would Barnet vs. AFC Wimbledon in the Conference count?
8. How do you count name changes?  For example, Arsenal were once Woolwich Arsenal, I believe.  They then moved to North London and changed their name.  Do they count as one team?

On a purely "finger-in-the-air" basis, I would place Arsenal and Spurs in the top two.  They were bigger than them for a long time (remember, football was going for 100 years before the Premier League was invented).  And, to my knowledge, Arsenal have never been relegated from the top flight.

I am sure that other questions will occur in the future, but these would give us something to work with.

[dannyboi-ffc]

1) Both
2) Using the modern points format to make it more simple. So 3 for win
3) Cup games treated like league games, so draws are 1 point.
4 & 5) Wimbledon is a combination of Old Wimbledon and AFC. I will never class MK Dons as the same.
6) Lets go all out and include Watford. The others pick themselves
7) Only league matches so anything lower than league two or old equivalent doesn't count.
8) Other than Wimbledon only games from the established club count. So only Arsenal. I cant see many other clubs having that issue.

I wonder if someone would know the actual answer. It would be interesting to see a table. Great effort by CMG but that's just head to heads against us, it would be fascinating to see an overall of every London derby

[Airfix]

So, we go with the following:

AFC Wimbledon/Wimbledon
Arsenal
Barnet
Brentford
Charlton Athletic
Chelsea
Crystal Palace
Dagenham & Redbridge
Fulham
Leyton Orient
Millwall
Queens Park Rangers
Tottenham Hotspur
Watford
West Ham United

Any others to add before I crunch?

[dannyboi-ffc]

So, we go with the following:

AFC Wimbledon/Wimbledon
Arsenal
Barnet
Brentford
Charlton Athletic
Chelsea
Crystal Palace
Dagenham & Redbridge
Fulham
Leyton Orient
Millwall
Queens Park Rangers
Tottenham Hotspur
Watford
West Ham United

Any others to add before I crunch?

it looks right to me mate

[Airfix]

105 data downloads to go....

[dannyboi-ffc]

105 data downloads to go....

Lol I put good money on it that you hate me by the end of it!

[Airfix]

Easy peasy.

Here is the straight London league, as per your parameters:



As I suspected, Arsenal first, Spurs second.

Because the teams have played different numbers of games, I've also done an average points league:



I've got more analysis to do on the results.  I'll try to run them up after lunch and save my findings to a Google doc for which I will share the link.

I'll also do a "West London League" for us, Chelsea, Brentford and QPR.

[dannyboi-ffc]

Nice one mate! Early results are showing my prediction for us was almost bang on the money with points per game. I said we would only be better than Orient, Barnet and Wimbledon. So not bad.

I suppose Arsenal should be top really but I thought Chelsea might be a bit closer on the points ratio. On the whole I think it gives a tale of two stories. Parts of that table are the same as biggest to smallest clubs and other parts are completely wrong. Ie top 3 is right, West ham should be 4th. Dags no where near the middle and us and Charlton much higher.

Interesting stuff, thanks for the effort! I have always felt we struggle in London derbies and this backs that theory up

[St Eve]

Oh this is way to complicated. I'm going with first

[Airfix]

Here is the West London League straight table:



And the average points table:



We need to pull our socks up a little, I think!