Has relegation crippled our current crop of youngsters?

[Apprentice to the Maestro]

Being hard faced you could say if you don't want to play for my club and it's all about money then go and we move on.

But, what if it's not about money? I don't see Emerson or Moussa going to PSG, man city or chelsea.

If we see these players go Brighton or MK Dons or any other Championship or lower division club then I will believe that it is about playing time and development, not money.

[ToodlesMcToot]

I don't believe that the problem with retaining these youngsters is too much to do with relegation. We're just victims of our own success with the academy.....and the rules regarding young player contracts, of course.

We can't afford to pay what it takes to retain the players and they really can't afford to pass up the deals that are on offer.

Of all that are supposed to be leaving us, I believe Hyndman is probably the one that's got the best trajectory toward success/stardom/whatever. His calmness on the ball belies his age and his passing range is just class. I don't knock any of our other youth (current or former), he's just got something intangible that the others don't....from my limited viewings.

[love4ffc]

I think MJG, WK and NoGood have all made some interesting and good points. 

I know that money talks in today's world.  I also know that outside influences put a bunch of fluff in the young lad's ears making them think the grass is greener elsewhere.  Guess I am old school about having some loyalty. But then again loyalty is a two way street. 

MJG you seem to have a much better understanding of the clubs workings then I could ever hope.  So perhaps what I am about to say the club has already done and tried. 

Seems to me that we could do a better job retaining some of our youth if there was a clear cut plan for them.  What I mean is that for each of our youth coming out of the academy there should be a distinct plan that is discussed with each of the lads and explains how they get to regular first team action.  I say this because it doesn't appear that we have done this at all and therefore we are losing good talent. 

For me the club should have sat down with all the lads that were "first team listed" at the end of last season and given them a true assessment.  Yes we see you in our future, no we thank you for your time but we are going to move on, or hey we like you but think we need to further develop you before regular first team action.  Again nothing is better than being honest.  Not saying you have blunt or rude about it just honest. 

It also seems to me that a youth player is not going to want to stick around not knowing what his future holds with a club.  I think a youth player named to the first team but only getting 12 games or so is going to think there is no future with the club, i.e. Hyndman and Dembele getting a sparse amount of games last year then finding out the club is looking for more players with more experience for the upcoming season.  If I was them it make think that I have no future with the club and that the club doesn't believe in me.  Therefore I might as well move on. 

My fear is that if this becomes a regular pattern taken by the club then we will continue to loose good talent.  Talent like Luca De La Torre whom I think has shown could be another bright star for the first team. 

Just seems to me that something has to change with how we convert our lads from academy to first team. 

[love4ffc]

Ok on the financial side of the academy it seems one can take three approaches. 

1)   Find youth talent, develop them then sell them off to hopefully make a profit. 

2)   Find youth talent, develop them and give them a clear honest path to regular first team        prospects.  Guessing this option the club would have to run the academy at a lost. 

3)   Option three, actually do both helping all parties involved get what they want.  No matter if it is with FFC or another club. 

I know, I know....I live in a dream world. 

[Woolly Mammoth]

Wayne Kerrins - the best post I've seen in a month of Sundays.  And spot on to boot.  It takes balls to tell the chairman that his balls are hanging out - and I don't see anybody telling him.  Keegan?  Tigana?  Hodgson (perhaps)?  They probably would have.  Not this triptych (as you call them).  All this talk of our wonderful signings and great squad earning us promotion this year?  What a load of old cobblesticks>  These signings just don't have the lustre of the Keegan and Tigana signings that shot us through the ceiling and onto the big stage. 
That took money, big huevos rancheroses and big management.  Kahn is hopelessly out of his depth when it comes to managing his way out of this mess he has found himself in.
As I see it, he has three routes he can take:
1. Chairman Mo model 1.  Spend big.  Find a strong manager (like Keegan) who can motivate.
2.  Chairman Mo model 2.  Find a really intelligent manager with the ability to get the team to play in an original and unstoppable way (the Tigana approach).  Still requires big money and big balls though.
3.  Chairman Mo model 3: Find a really, really super smart manager who can turn a group of journeymen into a very good team.  tghe Hodgson scenario.
Nogood "thinking we just don't have any of those routes mapped put, isit" Boyo

I have to agree with all you have said, and WK also. 

[MasterHaynes]

L4FFC & WK both raise good points, I think at an individual man management level we just have not thought through statements and actions and realised the consequences -

'only getting 12 games or so is going to think there is no future with the club, i.e. Hyndman and Dembele getting a sparse amount of games last year then finding out the club is looking for more players with more experience for the upcoming season.'

Kit was making noises about needing experience and bringing in players as far back as January. To top it all, excepting O'Hara, we have not brought in 'seasoned experienced players' with proven quality to convince everyone the club is intent on getting to Premier league this season.  

Don't you think that if we can see the clearly evident problems at the back going into this season and fret about the club sitting on its hands these youngsters will be doing the same, more so because its their careers. They are no different to any other talented youngster in any business. I would certainly expect to be compensated over and above the going rate to convince me to commit to join a 'company' when I don't see a similar commitment from my employer in achieving these 'shared ' aims.

I despair each time I have heard management of companies take the moral high ground and use it as part of their business strategy - 'our values are different', 'we need to pull together', 'We are a Team', 'Our Vision...'  yet other than making these types of statements on a regular basis make decisions that regularly result in a negative impact and then watch the wailing of senior managers looking for the nearest person to blame before walking away with a handsome payoff.

[MJG]

Ok on the financial side of the academy it seems one can take three approaches. 

1)   Find youth talent, develop them then sell them off to hopefully make a profit. 

2)   Find youth talent, develop them and give them a clear honest path to regular first team        prospects.  Guessing this option the club would have to run the academy at a lost. 

3)   Option three, actually do both helping all parties involved get what they want.  No matter if it is with FFC or another club. 

I know, I know....I live in a dream world. 

The club are giving an planning ahead for each individual player.The question is do they buy into it? And if not are the player you want at the club?

Both Burn and Bettinelli have followed the correct path. Played youth/u21 football and then had a couple of seasons on loan. If player can get say up to 100 games by time they are 21/22 then they are in a better position for first team football.

The hard part now for Dembele and Hyndman is they have had a taste of first team championship football at 18 and its hard to then take that step back in their minds.Also they are internationals and being away with kids of same age at larger clubs you do find out how much they earn or what its like at Utd for example.

There is a player at the club who has played a handful of first team games and now they have decided he needs to goto a L2 side and then a L1 side over next two seasons for his progression. He's had a taste of the first team but has accepted it was too early, now he knuckles down and does the hard work. That's the 'pathway' the club want players to but into.



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[snarks]

I think it is generally accepted that fulham are following the southampton model of developing youth, and it's easy to see why, the links (Jennings, Wigley) are clear. You should also bear in mind that the success of the southampton youth is fairly recent.

Yes they had a team get to the FA youth cup final (lost to Ipswich IIRC) out of that team only Walcott and perhaps dyer really went anywhere and both were sold after their relegation, Bale was a fire sale whilst they were in the championship. Yes they produced a lot of championship level players (best, blackstock and mcgoldrick) and crainie did something but really I would say 1 quality player from those that were in the youth set up is what you expect. It's only now some 10 years later that they are producing and playing a decent crop. I think Dembele and Hyndman may be ready for more games and would like to see them get them to find out if it's true. My one caveat to this is that kit will live or die by results, and let's face it if your job is on the line you put faith in experience not youth.

[Ordar]

Some interesting points on this topic, not sure I agree with the majority.

Keegan was not a good manager. He has proven that throughout his career. He got by with us as we had a team of Premier League and Division 1 caliber players, playing in Division 2. We spent an absolute fortune the 2 seasons we were in Division 2 which would never be allowed in the modern FFP era.

While I appreciate Al Fayed's investment into the club, he totally lost interest for me after the Marlet situation. Our net spend for the vast majority of the seasons after that was modest at best. I think there's a lot of rose tinted specs when it comes to Al Fayed. The vast majority of the money he put into the club he got back in the sale.

There was 2 main points in the last 15 years when we had the chance to really push on and he decided not to. Firstly after Tigana left we were crying out of a big managerial appointment. We had a fantastic side and with Chelsea not established properly a huge appointment and a few signings and we could have realistically been challenging for the league. Unfortunately Mo went the cheap route and we endured the Coleman era with signings like Elrich and Pembridge. I still believe that Al Fayed was annoyed at not being able to relocate to a new ground.

The second was obviously after the Europa final. The squad was too old and needed a dramatic overhaul. Not investing properly then basically got us relegated. The starting 11 got older and older. Because the players were older the wage bill got out of control.

The minute Khan came in he said that he is a hands off owner. He will support the club financially but expects the people he hires to do their job. Yes he wasn't aware really of the position the squad was in when he bought the club. Jol was very much on borrowed time and should have been sacked the previous season. None of his managerial decisions can be argued, even Magath had pedigree and a reputation for saving clubs. Personally I'm not convinced Kit is the right man, but Khan put a panel together and with fan pressure he was hired.

Rigg was a fantastic appointment and should give the club more direction and stability behind the scenes. The transfer policy has dramatically improved and we've brought in players approaching their prime who know what the league is about.

Back to the main thread point about the young players. As with Southampton it's impossible to keep your better young players when you're not in the top division (or in the top division eg Rooney etc). The fantasy that these young players will be the first team for the next 10 years is just ridiculous. They have no loyalty to the club. They like the majority of footballers only care about themselves and money. Roberts going to City is a classic example. I doubt he'll every play for city regularly. He'll be on the bench or in development until his contract runs out. City, unlike Chelsea, don't loan out their players so they end up rotting in the reserves.

Any player who is in the last year of their deal and won't sign an extension now should be sold for as much as we can get. As Rigg said, they are assets and we need to ensure that we get the most we can. Let them go to other clubs where they will never play while we can bring in players who want to be here, and let's get back to the Premiership where we belong

[GloucesterWhite]

WK all I can really say is that the club are trying to get those purchases in place. Make no bones about it Khan expects top six this season. And I agree we are possibly two or three away from that.
I know you mention ffp and the ability to show a loss, but its very easy for us to say take it to the limit, but I think that's a mistake.its a gamble to lose 13m and then if we fail to get up that loss needs to recouped at some stage. Its a one shot effort in many ways.
Also if it was so easy why are only 2 or 3 of the championship clubs seemingly going down that route?
I believe the clubs are all mainly treading water atm waiting to see what happens with QPR. Those who want to spend are the two main ones who missed out last year.
Every discussion I have had where Rigg has been involved has always include d FFP and we are not going to break it and I don't believe we are looking to go to the 13m limit. And I for one agrees with that.

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It's not often that I disagree with your views, but I think you are wrong about this. If we don't spend on the vital 2-3 players needed and take a chance we will not get promoted. And has been said elsewhere, this is the best/last chance with future parachute money reflecting the larger TV payments. Miss out this year and we will tread water for many years - what's the difference between that and trying but failing and being hit with a transfer embargo.

Not my money of course but if I werre Khan I would go for it. I think Boro have the right idea.

[alfie]

Some interesting points on this topic, not sure I agree with the majority.

Keegan was not a good manager. He has proven that throughout his career. He got by with us as we had a team of Premier League and Division 1 caliber players, playing in Division 2. We spent an absolute fortune the 2 seasons we were in Division 2 which would never be allowed in the modern FFP era.

While I appreciate Al Fayed's investment into the club, he totally lost interest for me after the Marlet situation. Our net spend for the vast majority of the seasons after that was modest at best. I think there's a lot of rose tinted specs when it comes to Al Fayed. The vast majority of the money he put into the club he got back in the sale.

There was 2 main points in the last 15 years when we had the chance to really push on and he decided not to. Firstly after Tigana left we were crying out of a big managerial appointment. We had a fantastic side and with Chelsea not established properly a huge appointment and a few signings and we could have realistically been challenging for the league. Unfortunately Mo went the cheap route and we endured the Coleman era with signings like Elrich and Pembridge. I still believe that Al Fayed was annoyed at not being able to relocate to a new ground.

The second was obviously after the Europa final. The squad was too old and needed a dramatic overhaul. Not investing properly then basically got us relegated. The starting 11 got older and older. Because the players were older the wage bill got out of control.

The minute Khan came in he said that he is a hands off owner. He will support the club financially but expects the people he hires to do their job. Yes he wasn't aware really of the position the squad was in when he bought the club. Jol was very much on borrowed time and should have been sacked the previous season. None of his managerial decisions can be argued, even Magath had pedigree and a reputation for saving clubs. Personally I'm not convinced Kit is the right man, but Khan put a panel together and with fan pressure he was hired.

Rigg was a fantastic appointment and should give the club more direction and stability behind the scenes. The transfer policy has dramatically improved and we've brought in players approaching their prime who know what the league is about.

Back to the main thread point about the young players. As with Southampton it's impossible to keep your better young players when you're not in the top division (or in the top division eg Rooney etc). The fantasy that these young players will be the first team for the next 10 years is just ridiculous. They have no loyalty to the club. They like the majority of footballers only care about themselves and money. Roberts going to City is a classic example. I doubt he'll every play for city regularly. He'll be on the bench or in development until his contract runs out. City, unlike Chelsea, don't loan out their players so they end up rotting in the reserves.

Any player who is in the last year of their deal and won't sign an extension now should be sold for as much as we can get. As Rigg said, they are assets and we need to ensure that we get the most we can. Let them go to other clubs where they will never play while we can bring in players who want to be here, and let's get back to the Premiership where we belong

they care about themselves and money because it is their career, just like most of us on here, i really like and enjoy my job but if someones comes along and offers me a better deal then i would have to carefully think about it. and whats is best for me and my family, why should they be any different?

[MJG]

WK all I can really say is that the club are trying to get those purchases in place. Make no bones about it Khan expects top six this season. And I agree we are possibly two or three away from that.
I know you mention ffp and the ability to show a loss, but its very easy for us to say take it to the limit, but I think that's a mistake.its a gamble to lose 13m and then if we fail to get up that loss needs to recouped at some stage. Its a one shot effort in many ways.
Also if it was so easy why are only 2 or 3 of the championship clubs seemingly going down that route?
I believe the clubs are all mainly treading water atm waiting to see what happens with QPR. Those who want to spend are the two main ones who missed out last year.
Every discussion I have had where Rigg has been involved has always include d FFP and we are not going to break it and I don't believe we are looking to go to the 13m limit. And I for one agrees with that.

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It's not often that I disagree with your views, but I think you are wrong about this. If we don't spend on the vital 2-3 players needed and take a chance we will not get promoted. And has been said elsewhere, this is the best/last chance with future parachute money reflecting the larger TV payments. Miss out this year and we will tread water for many years - what's the difference between that and trying but failing and being hit with a transfer embargo.

Not my money of course but if I werre Khan I would go for it. I think Boro have the right idea.

I don't think we should goto the limit....but that's not to say I don't think we have room to spends 10m net on transfers in, because I do.
But problem with the big gamble is being stuck with a lot of players on above championship wages with a diminishing income over the coming years.
Our income has reduced already this year by 5m as the parachute payment dropped. Next year that goes down another ten. So while we give contracts to players we also have to plan the budget ahead in the worse case.
Ask any Blackburn fan what they think about breaking the rules and what that embargo has done to them?

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[Ordar]

No I agree Alfie, it wasn't meant to be an over criticism, more a statement of fact. A lot of posters seem to think that players should have some kind of loyalty to the club that brings them through. The reality is that they're focused on their own careers. There's no loyalty from either side in modern football.

[bog]

What is the point of a top quality yoof set up if the manager will not give them a proper run in the team?  :031:

092.gif

[alexbishop]

This could be the most damaging summer for our academy in a long time. As it stands we have lost/could lose:

- Roberts
- DJ Buffonge (16 yr old from our academy poached by Man Utd)
- Dembele
- Hyndman
- Betts

There are others who are rumoured to be off but still not clear whether those would be loan deals or permanent transfers.

It is not the immediate loss of talent that will be damaging. It will be the knock on effect in terms of the players we bring in - will they now look at Fulham and see no pathway to the first team and go elsewhere?

Also, will our younger crop of youngsters still at Fulham - look at all the players moving on and not see a pathway to the first team either and move on once they turn professional?

Will key staff such as Wrigley, Jennings etc feel their efforts have been wasted and move on as well?

These are all concerns of mine.

[MJG]

Alex take out DJ as he's under 16 and even we are guilty of going to lower teams and taking players of that age. Not much you can do if you have Utd calling.
Bett's is the odd one out of the four....he was in the first team a lot,so the argument about being blocked does not wash with him. The question is why has he not signed the offer he has?

The other three are/were all in the last great of contract. Also all in the same age group, so its a bit of a perfect storm that we find ourselves in this situation. All are internationals and highly rated.All had taste of first team football... Was it enough? Even fans can't agree that Roberts was ready or even if Dembele is any good. Hyndman is seen as classy but a bit lightweight by some.

Of the XI starters in the second leg of the youth cup we have lost Pat, and look like losing these two as well.Sambou also left after being offered a contract.
The rest are working hard in the u21/18 group still and progressing well.

The heads of these two have been turned, they want it now and we can't 100% offer that, either from a finance side or a playing side. I've said before the two of them for me would be in the 18 every game, but then my job is not on the line to get results, but I don't think even that would satisfy these guys.I'll go back to the point I've made in last 24 hours....its money.


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[GloucesterWhite]

WK all I can really say is that the club are trying to get those purchases in place. Make no bones about it Khan expects top six this season. And I agree we are possibly two or three away from that.
I know you mention ffp and the ability to show a loss, but its very easy for us to say take it to the limit, but I think that's a mistake.its a gamble to lose 13m and then if we fail to get up that loss needs to recouped at some stage. Its a one shot effort in many ways.
Also if it was so easy why are only 2 or 3 of the championship clubs seemingly going down that route?
I believe the clubs are all mainly treading water atm waiting to see what happens with QPR. Those who want to spend are the two main ones who missed out last year.
Every discussion I have had where Rigg has been involved has always include d FFP and we are not going to break it and I don't believe we are looking to go to the 13m limit. And I for one agrees with that.

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It's not often that I disagree with your views, but I think you are wrong about this. If we don't spend on the vital 2-3 players needed and take a chance we will not get promoted. And has been said elsewhere, this is the best/last chance with future parachute money reflecting the larger TV payments. Miss out this year and we will tread water for many years - what's the difference between that and trying but failing and being hit with a transfer embargo.

Not my money of course but if I werre Khan I would go for it. I think Boro have the right idea.

I don't think we should goto the limit....but that's not to say I don't think we have room to spends 10m net on transfers in, because I do.
But problem with the big gamble is being stuck with a lot of players on above championship wages with a diminishing income over the coming years.
Our income has reduced already this year by 5m as the parachute payment dropped. Next year that goes down another ten. So while we give contracts to players we also have to plan the budget ahead in the worse case.
Ask any Blackburn fan what they think about breaking the rules and what that embargo has done to them?

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£10m net would do it for me, I think we would have a very good chance. Without that we will just finish mid table and tread water. This summer is so important and if we don't add further I can only conclude we lack ambition and the talk is just hot air.

I know we can't force good players to join, but getting a centre half who's better than what we have surely can't be that difficult.

[Deeping_white]

Personally I wouldn't get too sentimental about losing players that we've brought through the Academy, as long as we can command a fee for them. At the end of the day, we're no longer a PL club and while we remain outside of the Prem it will be harder to compete financially with any team in the Prem due to the huge amount of money you get for simply being there so losing players to those teams who can offer more than us shouldn't be seen as a lack of ambition, it's just how it'll be. Football revolves around money and until we're a top 6 Prem club we'll always be a "selling club" because players will always have their heads turned by a big team offering big money. We shouldn't forget that we've done it in the past to clubs smaller than ourselves and not felt guilty about it either.

At the end of the day, football is a business and it's probably best to see the Academy as a cash cow. As long as we're able to keep producing players that Prem teams want, we'll always be able to make some money from them e.g. Roberts. There's no telling how many more players like him we'll produce so the emphasis should be on making sure we bring more players like him through, and selling them for a good fee which means we can afford to reinvest in other players and the Academy, as well as adhere to FFP. My dad coaches U8-U11's for the Leicester Academy in Peterborough where they have set up a branch of their academy and from watching the teams he coaches I can safely say there's a lot of very good young English talent to be found, taken into our own Academy and then sold for big fees to teams like City who are interested in filling their homegrown quota.

I do completely agree on the point of seeing players we've brought through succeeding for us though, but until we're a dominant club in this country and Europe, there's always going to be someone bigger to come along and poach our talent, so we might as well take the biggest fee we can.

[alexbishop]

Alex take out DJ as he's under 16 and even we are guilty of going to lower teams and taking players of that age. Not much you can do if you have Utd calling.
Bett's is the odd one out of the four....he was in the first team a lot,so the argument about being blocked does not wash with him. The question is why has he not signed the offer he has?

The other three are/were all in the last great of contract. Also all in the same age group, so its a bit of a perfect storm that we find ourselves in this situation. All are internationals and highly rated.All had taste of first team football... Was it enough? Even fans can't agree that Roberts was ready or even if Dembele is any good. Hyndman is seen as classy but a bit lightweight by some.

Of the XI starters in the second leg of the youth cup we have lost Pat, and look like losing these two as well.Sambou also left after being offered a contract.
The rest are working hard in the u21/18 group still and progressing well.

The heads of these two have been turned, they want it now and we can't 100% offer that, either from a finance side or a playing side. I've said before the two of them for me would be in the 18 every game, but then my job is not on the line to get results, but I don't think even that would satisfy these guys.I'll go back to the point I've made in last 24 hours....its money.


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My point wasn't related to why said players are/might be leaving - it was more looking at our academy going forward and whether our relegation and subsequent handling of our academy players might have a knock on effect in terms of our recruitment of talent in the future and keeping good academy staff at the club.

[MJG]

Alex take out DJ as he's under 16 and even we are guilty of going to lower teams and taking players of that age. Not much you can do if you have Utd calling.
Bett's is the odd one out of the four....he was in the first team a lot,so the argument about being blocked does not wash with him. The question is why has he not signed the offer he has?

The other three are/were all in the last great of contract. Also all in the same age group, so its a bit of a perfect storm that we find ourselves in this situation. All are internationals and highly rated.All had taste of first team football... Was it enough? Even fans can't agree that Roberts was ready or even if Dembele is any good. Hyndman is seen as classy but a bit lightweight by some.

Of the XI starters in the second leg of the youth cup we have lost Pat, and look like losing these two as well.Sambou also left after being offered a contract.
The rest are working hard in the u21/18 group still and progressing well.

The heads of these two have been turned, they want it now and we can't 100% offer that, either from a finance side or a playing side. I've said before the two of them for me would be in the 18 every game, but then my job is not on the line to get results, but I don't think even that would satisfy these guys.I'll go back to the point I've made in last 24 hours....its money.


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My point wasn't related to why said players are/might be leaving - it was more looking at our academy going forward and whether our relegation and subsequent handling of our academy players might have a knock on effect in terms of our recruitment of talent in the future and keeping good academy staff at the club.

I don't think it will,  if anything we are producing players who we can show to prospective parents/kids that we coach players who when ready can move to top clubs.