Has relegation crippled our current crop of youngsters?

[Wearethewhites]

It looks like Dembele and Hyndman could be off this month, we also just lost another wonder kid from the under 18's tipped to be the next Pat Roberts. I believe United have just bought him, don't know his name.

Having been relegated, the Championship is a complete different kettle of fish, and you need to invest in players that will get you out of this division.

Relying on youngsters, or players who are not quite ready for the nit and grit of the Championship poses a big problem. Those who are in the final year of their contracts are refusing to sign, mainly because they can't be guaranteed first team football.

The question was asked about the Club offering more money to keep these players, but the answer was, if you offer one, you've then got to offer the rest.

Is this something that the Club are not managing correctly, or is this just unfortunately part and parcel of relegation?



   

[BedsFFC]

This is the first question Sarah should be asking Mike, or more importantly Shahid.

Roberts..I'm not 100% on but Moussa and Emerson are the real deal.

We've lost one.

If we lose another and heaven forbid a third, I'll ask you a question.

Can you love a football club...but just kinda go off them?

[Max Headroom]

I honestly think that the very best of the youngsters we have were always going to leave aged 18 or 19. It is the way football is these days. It is sad, but we haven't had youngsters of this calibre coming through probably ever.

Realistically these youngsters won't get us up but if we can sell for big money and get good slightly older players that is the best way.

It is very sad, but I am now accepting that we are Southampton mark 2. Better than being Portsmouth mark 2.

Oh and I REALLY want both to stay. Rigg.... Earn your money please :)

[MJG]

I don't believe it has crippled the club but of course from a financial point of view it's an issue.
The indications I'm getting are it's more to do with what the youngsters wanting more money than we are willing to pay. And we are not talking a few thousand here or there.
The big teams can and do offer 20/30/40k to get some of these lads. We can't realistically compete with that even if we were in the prem.
If we did pay these two guys say 20/25 that would soon get back to everyone in the squad and cause major issues.
Yes of course they want to play football,  and it's part of the whole deal,  but it's money more than anything that is stopping these guys signing. And we can't promise any player match time and if they don't want to go on loan or follow the paths set out for them are they any different from say Dempsey when he engineered his move? 
Being hard faced you could say if you don't want to play for my club and it's all about money then go and we move on.

[Jonaldiniho 88]

I think the OP has posted and worded a perfect post. It's an impossible question to answer without hindsight. The players we are talking about can't break into a championship side regularly. However if we were in the PL we could realistically pay them more and tell them they are more likely to play for us than ..... The problem of being desperate to raga in PL status (which would help us keep them) is that we can't risk playing them, although they are so good they could play in the PL. It seems to me like a dog chasing it's own tail. Who knows if a proven championship player will be better than a championship prospect. I do think our academy is crumbling. We haven't given players a chance and we can't pay them what they could earn elsewhere. Can hyndman start over Ohara or Parker? Yes he can but he won't. If you factor in our new signing why would hyndman stay? No game time and lower wages. If we were PL we are highly unlikely to play a player who doesn't play in the championship. The beauty of Southampton is that they played them and shifted their slightly higher rated players down to philosophy. We need to stick or twist because treading water won't help us.

[BedsFFC]

Being hard faced you could say if you don't want to play for my club and it's all about money then go and we move on.

But, what if it's not about money? I don't see Emerson or Moussa going to PSG, man city or chelsea.

[MJG]

Being hard faced you could say if you don't want to play for my club and it's all about money then go and we move on.

But, what if it's not about money? I don't see Emerson or Moussa going to PSG, man city or chelsea.

It is trust me.

[westcliff white]

Make you right MJG, agents will turn the youngsters heads

[NogoodBoyo]

Jonaldinho : The thrust of your position is interesting but I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean in this sentence. 
" The beauty of Southampton is that they played them and shifted their slightly higher rated players down to philosophy." 
Please clarify.
Nogood "we follow the Southampton modus operandi - except we don't play the best youngsters, isit" Boyo

[love4ffc]

Agree with the Southampton model.  Think they did a great job with using their youth to get themselves up.  Can't help but think the difference is that they believed in their youth and we don't. 

[MJG]

Agree with the Southampton model.  Think they did a great job with using their youth to get themselves up.  Can't help but think the difference is that they believed in their youth and we don't. 

Maybe the drop to L1 also gave them more room... As they had little choice... To play the younger players and give them 20 plus games than the dozen we gave Dembele and Hyndman last season.

[grandad]

I blame Jimmy Hill. He lead the scrapping of the maximum wage. From that time money has ruled the game. What on earth is the sanity of paying an 18 year old 1 to 2 million a year to sit on their backsides.
I´m sorry but I don´t think any player is worth more than a top heart surgeon. £200k per annum is plenty for a footballer to live a normal life.
After 61 years of watching football it won´t be long before the love affair ends.

[Max Headroom]

A lot of our youngsters also don't come from the UK, therefore the clubs they would consider going to are not just the ones in the UK. Dembele may want yo go back to France, Hyndman could go anywhere.

I think Dembele will have a bigger impact sooner but by the time Hyndman reaches his mid 20s he will be a star.

[WayneKerrins]

I don't believe it has crippled the club but of course from a financial point of view it's an issue.
The indications I'm getting are it's more to do with what the youngsters wanting more money than we are willing to pay. And we are not talking a few thousand here or there.
The big teams can and do offer 20/30/40k to get some of these lads. We can't realistically compete with that even if we were in the prem.
If we did pay these two guys say 20/25 that would soon get back to everyone in the squad and cause major issues.
Yes of course they want to play football,  and it's part of the whole deal,  but it's money more than anything that is stopping these guys signing. And we can't promise any player match time and if they don't want to go on loan or follow the paths set out for them are they any different from say Dempsey when he engineered his move? 
Being hard faced you could say if you don't want to play for my club and it's all about money then go and we move on.

MJG cheers for this informed and well written post.

Given it seems probable, arguably, highly probable  (at the time of writing) that we will be a solid CHamp team this year with no real prospect of promotion or relegation it's hard to see this cycle being broken unless Khan changes his frugal tack. Which to me at least seems unlikely.

A corollary would seem to be that we have a system that has produced and may continue to produce good players that will attract the top clubs to take a punt on wages before we are able to use them as regular on field assets.
I get this strategy worked for Crewe, but they didn't have our support, or a billionaire owner, or parachute payments, or FFP funded owner losses even before the certain relaxation of the rules.
With 3 more signings for a total of the Roberts proceeds we are bang in contention for the prem, with the possibility to maintain most of the integrity of our youth system if we get there.
Alternatively we field 2 of our poor bunch if CBS until we bring in an ok loanee (Turner type) after shipping an average 2 goals a game to start the season and end up bang mid table at best with all the cream being poached.
The time to try to break the cycle is surely now. With each passing year the problem worsens wouldn't you say?

[MJG]

WK all I can really say is that the club are trying to get those purchases in place. Make no bones about it Khan expects top six this season. And I agree we are possibly two or three away from that.
I know you mention ffp and the ability to show a loss, but its very easy for us to say take it to the limit, but I think that's a mistake.its a gamble to lose 13m and then if we fail to get up that loss needs to recouped at some stage. Its a one shot effort in many ways.
Also if it was so easy why are only 2 or 3 of the championship clubs seemingly going down that route?
I believe the clubs are all mainly treading water atm waiting to see what happens with QPR. Those who want to spend are the two main ones who missed out last year.
Every discussion I have had where Rigg has been involved has always include d FFP and we are not going to break it and I don't believe we are looking to go to the 13m limit. And I for one agrees with that.

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[Andy S]

I don't agree with over spending in any way. It got Leeds, Portsmouth and a whole lot of other clubs where they are today. We might not lie where we are but that is better than being bankrupt

[WayneKerrins]

I don't agree with over spending in any way. It got Leeds, Portsmouth and a whole lot of other clubs where they are today. We might not lie where we are but that is better than being bankrupt

Define overspending.
And what's your opinion on the other clubs who had losses for a period to progress but are now in relative clover reaping the huge prem rewards without breaking the bank.
The time to go for promotion is unarguably in the next 2 years. And at worst we're talking about a billionaire staking less than 1 (one) % of his net worth. If we didn't have a voluntary billionaire owner, para payments and FFP loss room Id be more with you. But we have and none is talking about the idiocy of Pompey, Bradford and Leeds (none of whom had billionaire owners).
Btw what's your view on Wigan's recent history?

[Lighthouse]

We need to ask a few simple questions. Was Roberts ready for the first team? Is Dembele ready for a first team spot? Is our American midfielder?

The closest is ironically Hyndman. But we simply cannot afford to keep players who have potential but need more time than we can afford or have. So they will move on. When fans were predicting a great future for Fulham I pointed out this very fact. If they are really good they will be poached by bigger teams. If not they will want to move on to teams that will pay them and play them.

If anything relegation has given a few youngsters more of an opportunity than they would otherwise  have.

[WayneKerrins]

WK all I can really say is that the club are trying to get those purchases in place. Make no bones about it Khan expects top six this season. And I agree we are possibly two or three away from that.
I know you mention ffp and the ability to show a loss, but its very easy for us to say take it to the limit, but I think that's a mistake.its a gamble to lose 13m and then if we fail to get up that loss needs to recouped at some stage. Its a one shot effort in many ways.
Also if it was so easy why are only 2 or 3 of the championship clubs seemingly going down that route?
I believe the clubs are all mainly treading water atm waiting to see what happens with QPR. Those who want to spend are the two main ones who missed out last year.
Every discussion I have had where Rigg has been involved has always include d FFP and we are not going to break it and I don't believe we are looking to go to the 13m limit. And I for one agrees with that.

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MJG I think most of us know that without a least one decent CB Mr Khan is going to be sadly dissappointed. Im certainly not advocating breaking the limit indeed given the positive net spend so far I don't think we have to. We do need to shell out on in my view 2 decent CBS and an DCM ( in fees/wages/loan fees). Decent as opposed to classy. With what else we have then top 6 is a realistic target.

I suspect, having worked for and with execs like Khan that none of the tryptich wants to tell him the reality of the situation. I suspect, strongly, that the Mitro sale/loan not going through is the main reason for the lack of anything significant for weeks. Whilst I don't doubt a word of what you say you have been told it's obvious that none of them are either in a position to or have the guts to talk plainly to him and certainly can't reveal this to you.
The problem with powerful emporers, especially ones with limited knowledge, is that they don't knwi when their bollocks are showing: and no one is going to tell them..

[NogoodBoyo]

Wayne Kerrins - the best post I've seen in a month of Sundays.  And spot on to boot.  It takes balls to tell the chairman that his balls are hanging out - and I don't see anybody telling him.  Keegan?  Tigana?  Hodgson (perhaps)?  They probably would have.  Not this triptych (as you call them).  All this talk of our wonderful signings and great squad earning us promotion this year?  What a load of old cobblesticks>  These signings just don't have the lustre of the Keegan and Tigana signings that shot us through the ceiling and onto the big stage. 
That took money, big huevos rancheroses and big management.  Kahn is hopelessly out of his depth when it comes to managing his way out of this mess he has found himself in.
As I see it, he has three routes he can take:
1. Chairman Mo model 1.  Spend big.  Find a strong manager (like Keegan) who can motivate.
2.  Chairman Mo model 2.  Find a really intelligent manager with the ability to get the team to play in an original and unstoppable way (the Tigana approach).  Still requires big money and big balls though.
3.  Chairman Mo model 3: Find a really, really super smart manager who can turn a group of journeymen into a very good team.  tghe Hodgson scenario.
Nogood "thinking we just don't have any of those routes mapped put, isit" Boyo